The Problem With EVs

[vinny41]

  On 12/25/2023 at 5:02 AM, HighPriority said:

Because you stated 2028 like it was a significant date, when it would appear random and unrelated to anything other than your personal financial timeline maybe… ?

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2024-2025 EV's Brands that have been sold in Thailand as part of EV 3.0 subsidy will be built in Thailand

2026 All Batteries to be locally sourced (Thailand)

2024-2025 EV's imported to Thailand as part of EV 3.5  subsidy to be built in Thailand 2026-2027

2024-2027 should see locally manufacturing developed if it doesn't already exist to provide locally source parts for EV's

expect early teething issues from any new production

2028 hopefully any  teething issues will be resolved

I don't expect to see swappable batteries and swappable batteries stations  built  in Thailand until 2027

Recently I have seen good reports from GAC AION

They reduced the price of their vehicles and they applied the reduction to any customer that had already received their vehicles prior to the price reduction announcement

And there was a report last week of someone that had a major failure within 5 days of purchase the dealer offered to take the car back and supply a brand new replacement

 

[HighPriority]

  On 12/25/2023 at 5:25 AM, vinny41 said:

2024-2025 EV's Brands that have been sold in Thailand as part of EV 3.0 subsidy will be built in Thailand

2026 All Batteries to be locally sourced (Thailand)

2024-2025 EV's imported to Thailand as part of EV 3.5  subsidy to be built in Thailand 2026-2027

2024-2027 should see locally manufacturing developed if it doesn't already exist to provide locally source parts for EV's

expect early teething issues from any new production

2028 hopefully any  teething issues will be resolved

I don't expect to see swappable batteries and swappable batteries stations  built  in Thailand until 2027

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Thats a fairly fluid bunch of timeline points you’ve got there.

I doubt there’s a perfect time to buy anything hightech.

They say the best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago, I’d suggest the best time to buy an ev is today…

Should your personal “nirvana point” ever eventuate you could trade up at that point.

That said I’m sure any new car will be a better vehicle in 2028 compared to 2024.

[vinny41]

  On 12/25/2023 at 5:35 AM, HighPriority said:

Thats a fairly fluid bunch of timeline points you’ve got there.

I doubt there’s a perfect time to buy anything hightech.

They say the best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago, I’d suggest the best time to buy an ev is today…

Should your personal “nirvana point” ever eventuate you could trade up at that point.

That said I’m sure any new car will be a better vehicle in 2028 compared to 2024.

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the timelines related  to manufacturing of cars and batteries  in Thailand have already been signed off by both the Thai Government and the Automotive Brand's

Neta and MG will be producing locally made cars 1st quarter 2024 and BYD sometime in the 1st 6 months of 2024

[BritManToo]

  On 12/25/2023 at 5:48 AM, vinny41 said:

the timelines related  to manufacturing of cars and batteries  in Thailand have already been signed off by both the Thai Government and the Automotive Brand's

Neta and MG will be producing locally made cars 1st quarter 2024 and BYD sometime in the 1st 6 months of 2024

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I'll assume that to mean locally assembled.

Can't imagine anyone manufacturing the parts and batteries in Thailand, all made in China.

[BritManToo]

  On 12/25/2023 at 5:35 AM, HighPriority said:

Thats a fairly fluid bunch of timeline points you’ve got there.

I doubt there’s a perfect time to buy anything hightech.

They say the best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago, I’d suggest the best time to buy an ev is today…

Should your personal “nirvana point” ever eventuate you could trade up at that point.

That said I’m sure any new car will be a better vehicle in 2028 compared to 2024.

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Thinking of getting a new (S/H) car, probably a ford Ranger 2017-2019 @approx 350kbht.

The best time to buy an EV will be when it's a similar price.

I'm not against EVs, I just can't justify blowing 1Mbht on one.

[vinny41]

  On 12/25/2023 at 6:31 AM, BritManToo said:

I'll assume that to mean locally assembled.

Can't imagine anyone manufacturing the parts and batteries in Thailand, all made in China.

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EV 3.0 stated locally produced for batteries

https://www.headlightmag.com/2023-08-24-ev-subsidy-package-draft/

SAIC MG already have battery factory in Thailand

Hasco-CP begins EV battery pack production in Thailand

Capacity for 50,000 packs with automated assembly and testing

https://www.just-auto.com/news/hasco-cp-begins-ev-battery-pack-production-in-thailand/?cf-view

 

For the rest of the vehicle I assume made in Thailand

[HighPriority]

  On 12/25/2023 at 6:34 AM, BritManToo said:

Thinking of getting a new (S/H) car, probably a ford Ranger 2017-2019 @approx 350kbht.

The best time to buy an EV will be when it's a similar price.

I'm not against EVs, I just can't justify blowing 1Mbht on one.

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But again you’re comparing a 6 year old box to a new one, go look at a 6 year old ev and compare 

[josephbloggs]

  On 12/25/2023 at 6:31 AM, BritManToo said:

I'll assume that to mean locally assembled.

Can't imagine anyone manufacturing the parts and batteries in Thailand, all made in China.

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You are very wrong.

[josephbloggs]

  On 12/25/2023 at 6:34 AM, BritManToo said:

Thinking of getting a new (S/H) car, probably a ford Ranger 2017-2019 @approx 350kbht.

The best time to buy an EV will be when it's a similar price.

I'm not against EVs, I just can't justify blowing 1Mbht on one.

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Unless you need the load capacity of a Ranger I have no idea why you would consider one. Noisy, dirty, sluggish, smelly. No need to spend 1mb on an EV, plenty of excellent options for far less than that, but not in the truck space.

I would never buy a diesel, but a second hand petrol car would be ok. But if you need a truck then there is no alternative really, got to go with what's available. I just think diesel vehicles are horrendous (always have, even before EVs came along). But if a truck is right for your lifestyle then a diesel is all you can do really.

One day maybe there'll be a good EV alternative for you but probably five or more years away really.

[xtrnuno41]

  On 12/25/2023 at 1:16 AM, JBChiangRai said:

 

This video is worse than clickbait, it has nothing to do with Toyota.  There is no such thing as a water engine and never will be.  It's a scientific impossibility.

 

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Of course, we do have now AI and soon AGI. We have quantum computers.

We can let someone with Parkinson disease, move in a normal way.

And way more things we maybe will never know, but it is there.

You can put all on clickbait, but then you ignore progress.

[Gweiloman]

  On 12/25/2023 at 2:18 PM, josephbloggs said:

Unless you need the load capacity of a Ranger I have no idea why you would consider one. Noisy, dirty, sluggish, smelly. No need to spend 1mb on an EV, plenty of excellent options for far less than that, but not in the truck space.

I would never buy a diesel, but a second hand petrol car would be ok. But if you need a truck then there is no alternative really, got to go with what's available. I just think diesel vehicles are horrendous (always have, even before EVs came along). But if a truck is right for your lifestyle then a diesel is all you can do really.

One day maybe there'll be a good EV alternative for you but probably five or more years away really.

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Another problem with owning EVs is that it has made me become like an ex-smoker. I’ve become more sensitive to the foul smelling diesel fumes but sadly my neighbour owns a diesel truck as do I (work vehicle). How I wish there are EV trucks available now.

[JBChiangRai]

  On 12/26/2023 at 12:51 AM, Gweiloman said:

Another problem with owning EVs is that it has made me become like an ex-smoker. I’ve become more sensitive to the foul smelling diesel fumes but sadly my neighbour owns a diesel truck as do I (work vehicle). How I wish there are EV trucks available now.

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There is something different about diesel vehicles in Thailand.  I smell them immediately I am behind one.  That doesn't happen in the UK.  Maybe they don't have catalytic converters here or DPFs, but there's definitely something very different.

 

I think a lot of the poor air quality is down to diesel engines.

[KhunLA]

  On 12/26/2023 at 12:51 AM, Gweiloman said:

Another problem with owning EVs is that it has made me become like an ex-smoker. I’ve become more sensitive to the foul smelling diesel fumes but sadly my neighbour owns a diesel truck as do I (work vehicle). How I wish there are EV trucks available now.

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Turned me into anti ICE anything  

 

Most of my daily riding around is on the E-MB, so aside from the black diesel belching out with every shift while accelerating down the road, even a few benzine cars in front of us, and the exhaust is just there, noticeable, stinks.   

 

Add that to any sweat and dust, and after on the scooter for a while, you just feel dirty.   I don't even take the morning shower, until dog & myself come back from our morning ride, as I know I'll need to shower.  Why shower before getting my daily dose of petrol fumes & dust on me.

 

Something I don't remember in the USA, as main transport there was MBs also.   And unless out all day, just didn't feel the need to shower after running errands or just O&A for a few hours.

[vinny41]

Thailand's PTT to invest $7bn in green hydrogen with Saudi firm

State oil giant aims for decarbonization and diplomatic healing at the same time

He said the project aims to build a plant in Thailand with a production capacity of 225,000 tons of hydrogen per year -- equivalent to around 1.2 million tons of ammonia.

Renewable green hydrogen is obtained through electrolysis of water, and is stored until used to power automobiles and industrial machinery.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Energy/Thailand-s-PTT-to-invest-7bn-in-green-hydrogen-with-Saudi-firm

Hydrogen Hilux: British-built prototype revealed

https://mag.toyota.co.uk/hydrogen-hilux/

First time the future pickup truck TOYOTA HILUX 3 power plants.. BEV, FCEV, HYBRID DIESEL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFqZiwa75hg&t=1141s

 

[KhunLA]

  On 12/26/2023 at 3:21 AM, vinny41 said:

Thailand's PTT to invest $7bn in green hydrogen with Saudi firm

State oil giant aims for decarbonization and diplomatic healing at the same time

He said the project aims to build a plant in Thailand with a production capacity of 225,000 tons of hydrogen per year -- equivalent to around 1.2 million tons of ammonia.

Renewable green hydrogen is obtained through electrolysis of water, and is stored until used to power automobiles and industrial machinery.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Energy/Thailand-s-PTT-to-invest-7bn-in-green-hydrogen-with-Saudi-firm

Hydrogen Hilux: British-built prototype revealed

https://mag.toyota.co.uk/hydrogen-hilux/

First time the future pickup truck TOYOTA HILUX 3 power plants.. BEV, FCEV, HYBRID DIESEL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFqZiwa75hg&t=1141s

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One can only hope diesel is banned in the future, though certainly won't be in my life time.   Could easily be done in personal vehicles, but that's obviously not going to happen.

 

Maybe H replaces diesel for the long haul trucking / train industry.  Though haven't bothered which is the better options LP vs NG vs H.  All mute as long as diesel is allowed to exist.

[JBChiangRai]

  On 12/26/2023 at 3:21 AM, vinny41 said:

Thailand's PTT to invest $7bn in green hydrogen with Saudi firm

State oil giant aims for decarbonization and diplomatic healing at the same time

He said the project aims to build a plant in Thailand with a production capacity of 225,000 tons of hydrogen per year -- equivalent to around 1.2 million tons of ammonia.

Renewable green hydrogen is obtained through electrolysis of water, and is stored until used to power automobiles and industrial machinery.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Energy/Thailand-s-PTT-to-invest-7bn-in-green-hydrogen-with-Saudi-firm

Hydrogen Hilux: British-built prototype revealed

https://mag.toyota.co.uk/hydrogen-hilux/

First time the future pickup truck TOYOTA HILUX 3 power plants.. BEV, FCEV, HYBRID DIESEL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFqZiwa75hg&t=1141s

 

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Presumably they are going to build solar farms to do that, in my opinion, they would be better something that Solar into the grid instead of burning coal.

 

The problem with green hydrogen is, it’s only about 20% efficient by the time it’s in your car, Compared with the original electricity City used to make it, So it’s always going to be a lot more expensive than a BEV, unless it’s subsidised to a massive degree

[josephbloggs]

  On 12/26/2023 at 3:32 AM, KhunLA said:

One can only hope diesel is banned in the future, though certainly won't be in my life time.   Could easily be done in personal vehicles, but that's obviously not going to happen.

 

Maybe H replaces diesel for the long haul trucking / train industry.  Though haven't bothered which is the better options LP vs NG vs H.  All mute as long as diesel is allowed to exist.

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 I heard (and then saw) a car yesterday, brand new with red plates - a 320d. I have absolutely no idea why someone would buy a new diesel saloon car. Why? I understand people buying diesel trucks due to the lack of alternative (and diesel giving better torque than petrol), but a new diesel BMW three series???

[josephbloggs]

  On 12/26/2023 at 12:55 AM, JBChiangRai said:

 

There is something different about diesel vehicles in Thailand.  I smell them immediately I am behind one.  That doesn't happen in the UK.  Maybe they don't have catalytic converters here or DPFs, but there's definitely something very different.

 

I think a lot of the poor air quality is down to diesel engines.

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I think a lot of it is down to the lower quality diesel used here - Euro 4 standard. The EU is Euro 6 and moving to Euro 7 in a year or so.
Euro 4 doesn't burn as efficiently and emits a lot more pollutants and particulates. Thailand has been stuck on Euro 4 since 2012.

Thailand is finally moving to Euro 5 as of 1st January.

 

https://www.nationthailand.com/thailand/general/40034126

 

 

 

 

[Lacessit]

I am wondering if any of the EV evangelists on this thread have thought about what happens when something unforeseen occurs.

 

1/ Battery fails to charge. Apparently the replacement cost is 60-70% of the new cost of the vehicle.

 

2/ A collision. Apparently the slightest damage to the battery component of an EV is cause for the vehicle to be scrapped.

 

3/ Flooding. During Hurricane Ian, there were reports of flooded EV's catching fire.

 

4/ The manufacturer goes bankrupt, or stops manufacturing EV's. Ford, VW, Toyota and GM are all pulling out of offering EV models.

 

That leaves the Chinese, whose after-sales service and financial health are far from transparent.

[HighPriority]

  On 12/30/2023 at 4:23 AM, Lacessit said:

I am wondering if any of the EV evangelists on this thread have thought about what happens when something unforeseen occurs.

 

1/ Battery fails to charge. Apparently the replacement cost is 60-70% of the new cost of the vehicle.

 

2/ A collision. Apparently the slightest damage to the battery component of an EV is cause for the vehicle to be scrapped.

 

3/ Flooding. During Hurricane Ian, there were reports of flooded EV's catching fire.

 

4/ The manufacturer goes bankrupt, or stops manufacturing EV's. Ford, VW, Toyota and GM are all pulling out of offering EV models.

 

That leaves the Chinese, whose after-sales service and financial health are far from transparent.

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Quick !

Back to the bunkers before the sky falls on you !

[Lacessit]

  On 12/30/2023 at 4:32 AM, HighPriority said:

Quick !

Back to the bunkers before the sky falls on you !

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Not if it has an EV parked in it.

 

I am not saying these are frequent occurrences. However, I am saying these potential high costs are not what ICE owners would experience.

 

One can replace the engine in an ICE for a cost of 20K to 30K baht. Permit me to doubt the cost of replacing an EV drive train is the same.

[JBChiangRai]

  On 12/30/2023 at 4:23 AM, Lacessit said:

I am wondering if any of the EV evangelists on this thread have thought about what happens when something unforeseen occurs.

 

1/ Battery fails to charge. Apparently the replacement cost is 60-70% of the new cost of the vehicle.

 

2/ A collision. Apparently the slightest damage to the battery component of an EV is cause for the vehicle to be scrapped.

 

3/ Flooding. During Hurricane Ian, there were reports of flooded EV's catching fire.

 

4/ The manufacturer goes bankrupt, or stops manufacturing EV's. Ford, VW, Toyota and GM are all pulling out of offering EV models.

 

That leaves the Chinese, whose after-sales service and financial health are far from transparent.

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You've missed a few highly likely scenarios...

 

Alien Invasion with anti-EV ray guns

Raspberry Jelly bubbling up from the ground and turning to concrete with EV's in it

The Grinch disabling all EV's at Christmas

 

I am sure there must be a lot more highly likely problems with EV's

 

[Lacessit]

  On 12/30/2023 at 5:49 AM, JBChiangRai said:

 

You've missed a few highly likely scenarios...

 

Alien Invasion with anti-EV ray guns

Raspberry Jelly bubbling up from the ground and turning to concrete with EV's in it

The Grinch disabling all EV's at Christmas

 

I am sure there must be a lot more highly likely problems with EV's

 

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I understand due to the battery weight, the tires on EV's are constructed differently, cost more, and wear out more quickly.

 

My main concern is worshippers of the electric Jesus will eventually martyr me, outraged by my heresy. It's a common occurrence in religions.

My guess is they will do this by making me complete the circuit between a Tesla and a BYD, with the high priest Elon officiating.

[KhunLA]

  On 12/30/2023 at 8:11 AM, Lacessit said:

I understand due to the battery weight, the tires on EV's are constructed differently, cost more, and wear out more quickly.

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Do they ? ... or more of your hypothetical situations.  Many variables, due to different cars, different tires and driver's habits.  Would think any heavier vehicle would wear out faster, if all things being equal.

 

Plenty of ICEVs the same or heavier than some EVs.  Already posted somewhere on AN.

 

Maybe purchase better tires, as you would with any vehicle.  Just a thought.

 

You didn't mention how brakes might last longer, due to regen system.  Or no cost of oil changes, tune ups, transmission servicing, or exhaust system issues/replacements with EVs.

 

Have a nice day.

 

 

[Lacessit]

  On 12/30/2023 at 8:34 AM, KhunLA said:

Do they ? ... or more of your hypothetical situations.  Many variables, due to different cars and driver's habits.  Would think any heavier vehicle would wear out shorter, if all things being equal.

 

Plenty of ICEVs the same or heavier than some EVs.  Already posted somewhere on AN.

 

Maybe purchase better tires, as you would with any vehicle.  Just a thought.

 

You didn't mention how brakes might last longer, due to regen system.  Or no cost of oil changes, tune ups, transmission servicing with EVs.

 

Have a nice day.

 

 

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[Lacessit]

I have Michelins on my Vios. I won't consider any other brand.

My last changeover was after a set had done 70,000 km. Even then, nowhere near the TWI, probably had another 5-10K of wear in them. I only changed them because my mechanic said they had tread cracking.

Fess up, EV owners. What's the best mileage you've got out of your tires?

[JBChiangRai]

  On 12/30/2023 at 8:43 AM, Lacessit said:

I have Michelins on my Vios. I won't consider any other brand.

My last changeover was after a set had done 70,000 km. Even then, nowhere near the TWI, probably had another 5-10K of wear in them. I only changed them because my mechanic said they had tread cracking.

Fess up, EV owners. What's the best mileage you've got out of your tires?

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There was a post on here about the MG EP+ (called the MG5 in the UK).  A company ran 2 of them, they were replacing tyres  at 80,000km and again at 160,000km on both cars.

[GroveHillWanderer]

  On 12/30/2023 at 8:37 AM, Lacessit said:

 

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The Royal Automobile Club (RAC), one of the two main motoring organisations in the UK, doesn't agree that EV's produce more particulate matter, nor that their tyres wear out more quickly.

 

"So, in conclusion, electric vehicles already vastly reduce particulate matter from brake wear, and claims of tyre wear contributing 1,000 times the particulate matter pollution of petrol and diesel exhausts are greatly overexaggerated. Real EV fleets are already seeing brake lifespans increased fourfold versus the diesel vehicles they have replaced, and tyre wear that is broadly on par with petrol and diesel cars (unless, as like with any vehicle, the drivers get a bit throttle happy!)."

 

Do electric vehicles produce more tyre and brake pollution than their petrol and diesel equivalents?

[Lacessit]

  On 12/30/2023 at 8:50 AM, JBChiangRai said:

 

There was a post on here about the MG EP+ (called the MG5 in the UK).  A company ran 2 of them, they were replacing tyres  at 80,000km and again at 160,000km on both cars.

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There are times when I find data posted to defy common sense and basic physics.

My Vios weighs 1035 kg. The MG EP+ weighs 1574 kg.

With equivalent tires, there is no way the MG can outperform a Vios for tire wear. That's bullsh!t.

The only explanation is the MG tires are considerably different to my Michelins, in terms of construction and presumably cost.

[Yellowtail]

  On 12/30/2023 at 9:11 AM, Lacessit said:

There are times when I find data posted to defy common sense and basic physics.

My Vios weighs 1035 kg. The MG EP+ weighs 1574 kg.

With equivalent tires, there is no way the MG can outperform a Vios for tire wear. That's bullsh!t.

The only explanation is the MG tires are considerably different to my Michelins, in terms of construction and presumably cost.

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The tires are not equivalent. 

I think the MG tires are wider and taller, so the tire rotates fewer times over the same distance, and the load per unit area on the tire is lower.

 

Any number of other things impact tire wear including but not limited to temperature and road surface.