Accidentally dipped a few thousand below 800,000 but returned quickly???

[bbi1]

On 1/8/2024 at 5:51 AM, spidermike007 said:

No, they will not be reasonable. I found myself in the same position you will simply have to pay a fee to either an agent at the office or an outside agent, in my particular case I had to pay a 10,000 baht fee to get them to do fake bank statements. I dealt with an officer right at the office. They are nearly all crooked. 

If committing fraud to produce false documents, instead of paying an agent to commit fraud on your behalf, couldn't the OP or you in this case just make fake bank statements yourself and save yourself the 10,000 baht? I guess you'd need to be decent with Photoshop or a similar computer program. Benefits being 10k saved and you are still committing a crime of fraud either way but you have an extra 10k in your pocket at the end of the day.

[bbi1]

51 minutes ago, jnak said:

Agreed.  Just to be clear, we are certainly not interested in doing anything illegal. I appreciate everyones feedback, it is valuable.  We will plan to talk to both an agent and immigration as soon as possible and be completely honest with them.  I think that's better than trying to hide it and risk having to leave quickly. And if they ask for a "fee" to fix things, that's on them.  We won't be bribing them. And my conscience will be clean. :)

Then don't bother with an agent, because you will certainly be doing something illegal, dodgy and fraud. Don't talk BS that you "are keeping your conscience clean" when you are bribing immigration officers via bribes paid to an agent. What a load of BS you wrote about keeping your conscience being kept clean when you clearly know bribes will be involved.

 

If you're not looking to do anything illegal, you won't be renewing your retirement visa as you were below the 800k and the only way to fix this is via bribes. So your option is to leave the country and get an alternative visa.

[Liquorice]

2 hours ago, bigt3116 said:

 

As long as it has instant access

 

FTD accounts are instant access.

[Red Phoenix]

In case the local Immigration Office is adamant about the 800K on your husband's personal bank-account and unwilling to consider any alternatives, and you do not find an agent that could fix the issue with Immigration, that's still not the end of the world.

In that case it would just be a matter that both of you do a quick border-run in course of this month prior to the expiry of both your Permissions to stay, and return VisaExempt providing both of you with a 30-day Permission to stay.  And then  when having at least 15 days left on that Permission to stay, apply for a 90-day Non Imm O Visa for reason of retirement for your husband and a dependant 90-day Visa for you on your husband's one.  There is no seasoning requirement for the funds, when applying for the 90-day Non Imm O Visa.  And at the end of those 90 days you can then apply for 1-year extensions and you would be in same situation as before this unfortunate short dip on the 800K funds.  The only difference being that your next 1-year extension of stay dates would be approx 3-4 months after your current ones. 

Note 1: Do discuss the above solution with your local Immigration Office if they are unwilling to provide or accept an easier solution.

Note 2: In case you currently have Re-Entry Permits for your Permissions to stay, you would have to wait till last day of your Permission to stay to do the border-run as otherwise border-immigration will 'honor' your Re-Entry Permit and you would be in same situation as you currently are.  Re-entering Thailand when your Permission to stay has expired or you only have a couple of days left, will often lead to border-immigration asking you whether you want it 'honored' or whether you want to get a NEW 30-day VisaExempt Permission to stay.   

Note 3: To avoid a repeat of accidentally dipping under the 800K tresshold, you could before applying for the 90-day Non Imm O Visa, open a Fixed Deposit account at your bank and transfer the +800.000 THB to that account.

[digger70]

On 1/7/2024 at 10:36 PM, WhatMeWorry said:

Hire an agent and stop worrying about dipping. No need to keep 800,000 of you money in a Thai bank. 

If the Imm officers go by the Law and don't take any gifts than using an agent if you haven't got the 800K is Illegal.

I just hope that will happen one day, Less Corruption.

[DrJack54]

55 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

In that case it would just be a matter that both of you do a quick border-run in course of this month prior to the expiry of both your Permissions to stay, and return VisaExempt providing both of you with a 30-day Permission to stay.  And then  when having at least 15 days left on that Permission to stay, apply for a 90-day Non Imm O Visa for reason of retirement for your husband and a dependant 90-day Visa for you on your husband's one. 

Think that's fine for the husband however the wife in order to piggyback on husband as dependent needs to enter Thailand on a non O.

Happy for someone to correct this if wrong info. 

Some comments in attached thread from ubonjoe.

https://aseannow.com/topic/1245491-dependant-spouse-with-extension-to-stay-based-on-retirement/

[bbi1]

10 minutes ago, digger70 said:

If the Imm officers go by the Law and don't take any gifts than using an agent if you haven't got the 800K is Illegal.

I just hope that will happen one day, Less Corruption.

Yep, too many dodgy folks here on this forum willing to bribe their way out of everything.

[Jingthing]

52 minutes ago, digger70 said:

If the Imm officers go by the Law and don't take any gifts than using an agent if you haven't got the 800K is Illegal.

I just hope that will happen one day, Less Corruption.

Well, as westerners it's understandable to think in such black and white terms about using agents when you don't qualify.
But this is Thailand and I'm not aware of any specific law saying you can't use an agent without qualifying yourself or against an agent "encouraging" an officer with such fictional applications.

Does that sound like corruption? Sure it does, BUT ...  

I've never heard EVEN ONCE in my long time here of an expat or an agent being arrested for that.

So is it "really" illegal?

Maybe so, maybe not but in practical reality does it matter?

Of course in cases where an agent used fake stamps or runs off with money and passports, then there can (hopefully) be arrests of agents and unfortunately the expats with fake stamps are in hot water too. 

Or perhaps the agent gets legit stamps but away from your local immigration office causing later problems (or dependency on that one agent) for the expats. Not good.

There are risks for expats using agents and expats need to make their own risk reward analysis before going there.

Anyway I won't personally use agents as I'm old fashioned as I like to legitimately qualify and apply to immigration myself. I sleep better that way.

But if I was DESPERATE, there is a good chance I would change my tune.

[jnak]

24 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Well, as westerners it's understandable to think in such black and white terms about using agents when you don't qualify.
But this is Thailand and I'm not aware of any specific law saying you can't use an agent without qualifying yourself or against an agent "encouraging" an officer with such fictional applications.

Does that sound like corruption? Sure it does, BUT ...  

I've never heard EVEN ONCE in my long time here of an expat or an agent being arrested for that.

So is it "really" illegal?

Maybe so, maybe not but in practical reality does it matter?

Of course in cases where an agent used fake stamps or runs off with money and passports, then there can (hopefully) be arrests of agents and unfortunately the expats with fake stamps are in hot water too. 

Or perhaps the agent gets legit stamps but away from your local immigration office causing later problems (or dependency on that one agent) for the expats. Not good.

There are risks for expats using agents and expats need to make their own risk reward analysis before going there.

Anyway I won't personally use agents as I'm old fashioned as I like to legitimately qualify and apply to immigration myself. I sleep better that way.

But if I was DESPERATE, there is a good chance I would change my tune.

I appreciate your understanding of the big picture here, and that things are certainly done differently in Thailand. And that’s for working hard to help us find a solution. 

[Gknrd]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

 

But if I was DESPERATE, there is a good chance I would change my tune.

Exactly, all these people commenting here don't know Thailand for sure.  I was there for 12 years and last year went back for 6 months. Same guys were using agents. No problems what so ever. Got a friend in Udon that married a Thai national in the US. For some reason the marriage was not registered in Thailand or something. She just gets him an agent every year. And they both have income. Just much less nonsense to put up with.  Last time I was there I was contemplating staying and he chimed in with just get an agent. He said after he hit 80 he did not want to put up with it anymore. He said best thing he ever did.  Said if he ever had problems he would do a run and put the money int he bank. But for years he has been living a stress free life from Immigration. He does nothing, no 90 day report nothing.

[Red Phoenix]

4 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

Think that's fine for the husband however the wife in order to piggyback on husband as dependent needs to enter Thailand on a non O.

Happy for someone to correct this if wrong info. 

Some comments in attached thread from ubonjoe.

https://aseannow.com/topic/1245491-dependant-spouse-with-extension-to-stay-based-on-retirement/

Thanks for the caveat - if indeed she can only apply for the dependant status from a Non Imm O Visa status, that would mean both the husband and the wife would have to apply for a new Non Imm O Visa for reason of retirement, meaning that both would have to meet the financial requirement for such application (i.e. 800K on a personal Thai bank-account with foreign origins proven at moment of application). 

Fingers crossed that the OP has a sensible Imm Office, willing to provide workable solutions to deal with that couple-of-hours glitch or that he can make use of an Agent to fix the situation.

 

[spidermike007]

15 hours ago, bbi1 said:

If committing fraud to produce false documents, instead of paying an agent to commit fraud on your behalf, couldn't the OP or you in this case just make fake bank statements yourself and save yourself the 10,000 baht? I guess you'd need to be decent with Photoshop or a similar computer program. Benefits being 10k saved and you are still committing a crime of fraud either way but you have an extra 10k in your pocket at the end of the day.

No the one thing that you've gotten wrong here is that once you pay that fee it is the immigration agent who has committed fraud, and that fraud is entirely on them, not me. My visa is completely legitimate and the agent is the one who's entirely vulnerable. At least in theory. 

 

The other aspect of this is that getting caught submitting fraudulent documents to immigration is likely a serious crime, on the other hand using documents that immigration has created for you is no crime at all. 

[BangkokAlan]

I think you can explain to them as you have here it was taken accidentally and replaced immediately. They may be rigorous and difficult at times, but I believe they would overlook a shortfall that was replaced the same day.  if it was for days or weeks that would be different. If you try and trick them and get caught that would be a problem. Only explain if asked they may miss it i never seen them look too closely at my statements when i do my marriage extension. Thats would be my way to deal with it.

[BangkokAlan]

53 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

No the one thing that you've gotten wrong here is that once you pay that fee it is the immigration agent who has committed fraud, and that fraud is entirely on them, not me. My visa is completely legitimate and the agent is the one who's entirely vulnerable. At least in theory. 

 

The other aspect of this is that getting caught submitting fraudulent documents to immigration is likely a serious crime, on the other hand using documents that immigration has created for you is no crime at all. 

If they ever investigated a visa through agents and asked for real updated statements and you couldn't provide the same details, I don't think your visa would be considered legitimate when the funds were not in the bank. And this will happen one day.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, BangkokAlan said:

I think you can explain to them as you have here it was taken accidentally and replaced immediately. They may be rigorous and difficult at times, but I believe they would overlook a shortfall that was replaced the same day.  if it was for days or weeks that would be different. If you try and trick them and get caught that would be a problem. Only explain if asked they may miss it i never seen them look too closely at my statements when i do my marriage extension. Thats would be my way to deal with it.

I disagree and/or it's not my experience for retirement.

The transactions are examined closely.

Same day or not, the 800K rule was broken.

Of course you can ask for leniency, but in cases like this, I consider leniency unlikely.

That said, they may indeed agree to an OVERSTAY situation to wait for the money to season again without going under.

 

[BangkokAlan]

32 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I disagree and/or it's not my experience for retirement.

The transactions are examined closely.

Same day or not, the 800K rule was broken.

Of course you can ask for leniency, but in cases like this, I consider leniency unlikely.

That said, they may indeed agree to an OVERSTAY situation to wait for the money to season again without going under.

 

We just have a difference of opinion on how to approach this, I would rather have an issue about the money than falsify documents through and agent but that's my view and I Know it's not shared by all, but I also don't think all immigration issues are the same or all officers trying to hide it or fake it is much worse an issue. If it happened last month and need to season for 2 that's a month's overstay which I believe is a bigger issue.

[Jingthing]

8 minutes ago, BangkokAlan said:

We just have a difference of opinion on how to approach this, I would rather have an issue about the money than falsify documents through and agent but that's my view and I Know it's not shared by all, but I also don't think all immigration issues are the same or all officers trying to hide it or fake it is much worse an issue. If it happened last month and need to season for 2 that's a month's overstay which I believe is a bigger issue.

Don't put words in my mouth!

I never suggested falsifying documents.

I never said to fake it.

My main suggestion knowing more details now is to go in, acknowledge the problem upfront, and politely ask the officer if he will allow the applicant to be into overstay (2 or 3 weeks fined) until the money is properly seasoned.

There are reports over the years of officers allowing that in similar cases.

I don't recall reports of them accepting an under 800K during seasoning period without consequence.

It's theoretically possible that lenience would be shown, but in my opinion unlikely.

Yes I also acknowledged an agent is an option because that's a fact of life here.

 

[spidermike007]

5 hours ago, BangkokAlan said:

If they ever investigated a visa through agents and asked for real updated statements and you couldn't provide the same details, I don't think your visa would be considered legitimate when the funds were not in the bank. And this will happen one day.

Well since all of this is done internally within the immigration office I am certainly not worried about anybody investigating the immigration agents. As we all know like the RTP, they are totally above the law. 

 

Zero worries.

[Liquorice]

22 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

Think that's fine for the husband however the wife in order to piggyback on husband as dependent needs to enter Thailand on a non O.

Happy for someone to correct this if wrong info. 

Absolutely correct @DrJack54

The foreign spouse must enter on a Non O in order to piggyback the husband's extension of stay based on retirement.

 

You cannot apply at Immigration for a switch to Non O as a dependant, unless the dependant is of Thai nationality or has permanent residency.

[bbi1]

11 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

No the one thing that you've gotten wrong here is that once you pay that fee it is the immigration agent who has committed fraud, and that fraud is entirely on them, not me. My visa is completely legitimate and the agent is the one who's entirely vulnerable. At least in theory. 

Why was it when people were using agents for dodgy visas like volunteering visas and doing fake visa runs where the foreigner stays in Thailand but the agent takes the passport to get stamped with dodgy stamps, why was it always the foreigner gets in trouble and has issues down the line, not these agents?

[Liquorice]

6 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

Well since all of this is done internally within the immigration office I am certainly not worried about anybody investigating the immigration agents. As we all know like the RTP, they are totally above the law. 

 

Zero worries.

If you can't meet the financial requirements for an extension, and resort to paying an agent a fee, you're well aware he is obtaining the extension through deception, false or fake means, which makes you an accomplice to the offence. Claiming ignorance won't work.

 

Plenty of corrupt Immigration officials dismissed, just Google 'Thai Immigration officials dismissed for corruption'.

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

If you can't meet the financial requirements for an extension, and resort to paying an agent a fee, you're well aware he is obtaining the extension through deception, false or fake means, which makes you an accomplice to the offence. Claiming ignorance won't work.

 

Plenty of corrupt Immigration officials dismissed, just Google 'Thai Immigration officials dismissed for corruption'.

I'm no fan of agents or how that system works with them.

Never used one and hope that continues.

But back to real life in Thailand, if you use an agent and they get you a legal stamp, it's incredibly unlikely you'll ever be arrested for that. In fact, I have not heard of even ONE CASE of that happening in Thailand.

Of course if you're unlucky and use a bad guy agent and they get you a fake stamp, that's another matter. That could happen. Rare but it is a small risk for expat customers.

[Liquorice]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

But back to real life in Thailand, if you use an agent and they get you a legal stamp, it's incredibly unlikely you'll ever be arrested for that. In fact, I have not heard of even ONE CASE of that happening in Thailand.

The stamp may be legitimate, but it was obtained illegally.
I know of a case, arrested, fined, deported, married to a Thai. Told by airlines, he's blacklisted.
His wife found out, through a Thai lawyer, he now has a criminal record as an accomplice to fraud, is considered 'undesirable' and will never be allowed back into Thailand.

3 Immigration officials were dismissed, not moved to inactive posts, and the agent no longer exists.

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

The stamp may be legitimate, but it was obtained illegally.
I know of a case, arrested, fined, deported, married to a Thai. Told by airlines, he's blacklisted.
His wife found out, through a Thai lawyer, he now has a criminal record as an accomplice to fraud, is considered 'undesirable' and will never be allowed back into Thailand.

3 Immigration officials were dismissed, not moved to inactive posts, and the agent no longer exists.

If he had a legit stamp, sorry, I don't believe that's the whole story.

[Liquorice]

4 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

If he had a legit stamp, sorry, I don't believe that's the whole story.

You can have a legit driving licence, but if it was obtained corruptly, it can be revoked, as can extensions of stay.

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

You can have a legit driving licence, but if it was obtained corruptly, it can be revoked, as can extensions of stay.

Again, based on decades on this forum, I don't believe this is a real risk for expats using agents as long as the stamp is legit.

But I will say others that can report such instances are most welcome to post about that. We should be open to changing our opinions based on evidence.

To be clear in no way imaginable am I a promoter of using agents, but I find fear mongering despicable as well. 

[Liquorice]

16 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Again, based on decades on this forum, I don't believe this is a real risk for expats using agents as long as the stamp is legit.

I agree, the risk is small, unless you're the one caught up in an Immigration investigation for corruption.

 

Going back to your statement that if the stamp is legit, then it's not an issue.
If someone managed to withdraw money from another person's bank account through fraudulent methods, would that mean if caught, he could keep the money because the notes are legitimate. The principal is the same.

[chickenslegs]

@DrJack54

The op has said they have a separate joint account. I seem to recall that joint accounts are accepted but immigration will only count half the balance.

[Liquorice]

1 minute ago, chickenslegs said:

@DrJack54

The op has said they have a separate joint account. I seem to recall that joint accounts are accepted but immigration will only count half the balance.

The OP has already stated the amount in the other account doesn't meet the shortfall.
They used the account holding the 800K because there wasn't sufficient funds in their second account to pay an unexpected expense.

[chickenslegs]

4 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

The OP has already stated the amount in the other account doesn't meet the shortfall.
They used the account holding the 800K because there wasn't sufficient funds in their second account to pay an unexpected expense.

No, there is another account.

 

On 1/9/2024 at 8:49 AM, jnak said:

Yes but unfortunately the other account did not have the amount needed at the exact same time. So if we got a statement from the other bank, together with the 800k bank, it still would not show enough money at the same time.  (Saturday afternoon for 20 minutes...) So wouldn't do any good I don't think.  We also have a shared account of course that has enough money, but I don't think they will accept that either because my name is on it.