Nick Carter icp Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 9 minutes ago, Morch said: An 'ignore' is earned, no granted. Let Retarius decide that :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rimmer Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 Off topic troll post discussing the ignore function and replies has been removed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 Apparently the Biden administration is not quite as on-board with Israel's/Netanyau's positions, and maybe there are limits as to how far support will go: Biden administration discussing slowing some weaponry deliveries to Israel to pressure Netanyahu https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-administration-discussing-slowing-weaponry-deliveries-israel-pre-rcna136035 Scoop: Biden tells Bibi he's not in it for a year of war in Gaza https://www.axios.com/2024/01/26/biden-netanyahu-israel-hamas-war-gaza-timetable I think these comments and moves are alright. The USA got it's own interests, and a wider perception of things - especially in comparison to the current Israeli government. And at the bottom line, one country is a superpower, and the other is....well, not. Difference in power translate into effect on decision making and options. And, by the way, people who accept this proposition should bear in mind it applies to relations between Israel and the Palestinians, as well. Such is the way of the world. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannork Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 Cameron supporting a Palestinian state. "UK considering recognising Palestine state, Lord Cameron says - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68137220 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Carter icp Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 16 minutes ago, bannork said: Cameron supporting a Palestinian state. "UK considering recognising Palestine state, Lord Cameron says - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68137220 It does rather change the context when you remove the "considering" word 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozimoron Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 (edited) I just watched a video on it. Apparently it would require 1. A multinational force 2. A path to statehood 3. Palestinians controlling all humanitarian aid. Britain will consider recognising a Palestinian state as part of concerted efforts to bring about an “irreversible” peace settlement, the foreign secretary, David Cameron, has said. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/30/uk-will-consider-recognising-palestinian-state-says-david-cameron This would have involved UK discussion with the US, France and Germany. It's not going to be just the UK. That's how this kind of diplomacy works. Edited January 30 by ozimoron 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 32 minutes ago, ozimoron said: I just watched a video on it. Apparently it would require 1. A multinational force 2. A path to statehood 3. Palestinians controlling all humanitarian aid. Britain will consider recognising a Palestinian state as part of concerted efforts to bring about an “irreversible” peace settlement, the foreign secretary, David Cameron, has said. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/30/uk-will-consider-recognising-palestinian-state-says-david-cameron This would have involved UK discussion with the US, France and Germany. It's not going to be just the UK. That's how this kind of diplomacy works. @ozimoron I think you left out some stuff: - Assurances for Israel's security. - Restructuring of the PA. All of the things on the list are hard to do, and there was nothing much in his words that suggested how to get there, in practical terms. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkk Brian Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 There is of course the conditions of release of all hostages, Hamas leaders removed, terror infrastructure dismantled. There is a new topic on it here actually with Cameron's full transcript on his proposal better than cherry picked bullet points by the apologists. Foreign Secretary David Cameron writes on how to solve the Gaza crisis https://aseannow.com/topic/1318495-foreign-secretary-david-cameron-writes-on-how-to-solve-the-gaza-crisis 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rimmer Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 A post linking to a source in German has been removed also a reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
placnx Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 On 1/20/2024 at 2:27 PM, Morch said: You're trying to paint the Palestinians as some pro-equality, pro-democracy crowd, with Israel painted into the opposing corner. You have no clue. Hamas gets a whole lot of support - does it represent any of the required values? Does the PA embodies them? Do Palestinian sentiment align with what you tout? Have a look at the Middle East. Find a country managing harmonic co-existence between groups, plus all the democracy stuff. Then get back to reality. It's obvious that many Israelis are pro-democracy for themselves, but not for Palestinians. Look at the demonstrations against Netanyahu's plan for amending the basic law concerning their Supreme Court, but the media in Israel brainwashes people to have a negative attitude demonizing Palestinians. So when 7 October happened, it was very easy for politicians and the military to incite genocidal thoughts. Until the bubble of existential paranoia is popped, it will be impossible to have peace in the Middle East. Lebanon used to be a country with many religious groups living in harmony despite foreign interference, such as US in 1958, Israeli overflights in the late 60s which I saw, then the 1975-90 Civil War when power sharing broke down, and IDF invasions in 1982 and 2006. Some people there really want a non-sectarian democracy, but the French set up a system that perpetuates sectarian divisions which has finally led to a kleptocracy that has bled the country to death. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
placnx Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 On 1/20/2024 at 3:20 PM, Brian Hull said: Israel has no propriety rights to Gaza or the West Bank and so Netanyahu's objection to a Palestinian State should carry no weight. The world at large should endorse a Palestinian State with or without the cooperation of Israel (just as it endorsed the creation of Israel in 1948). Israel will have to learn to accept it or lose the financial and military backing of the US, and risk an international boycott. The land grabbing Jewish settlers who have set up home in the West Bank and might choose to remain will come under the authority of Palestine. The settlers have no right to be there (under international law), and Israel should repatriate them (and put the murderers in jail). It's likely that it will require sustained sanctions for Israel to get out of the West Bank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
placnx Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 On 1/20/2024 at 5:53 PM, Jingthing said: It's delusional to think for one second that Israel would ever accept a one state solution voluntarily. That would mean the end of Israel and anyone who is half way honest fully realizes that. It's funny how many people expect Israel to commit national suicide when they would never ask the same thing of any other country, especially their own. You are quite right that Israel would not voluntarily agree to any solution - one-state or two-state. It's becoming quite evident to many countries that ethnic cleansing did not stop in 1948, but is an ongoing project of succeeding Israeli governments, only now it is blatant. "National suicide" is one of those dog whistle terms drummed into the national psyche, promoting the siege mentality rendering fair treatment of the Palestinian issue impossible. That's why international opprobrium of Israel and what goes with it may eventually lead to justice for the Palestinians, in spite of the gloomy predictions of Israeli media and politicians. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 3 minutes ago, placnx said: You are quite right that Israel would not voluntarily agree to any solution - one-state or two-state. It's becoming quite evident to many countries that ethnic cleansing did not stop in 1948, but is an ongoing project of succeeding Israeli governments, only now it is blatant. "National suicide" is one of those dog whistle terms drummed into the national psyche, promoting the siege mentality rendering fair treatment of the Palestinian issue impossible. That's why international opprobrium of Israel and what goes with it may eventually lead to justice for the Palestinians, in spite of the gloomy predictions of Israeli media and politicians. Name me one Arab Muslim state with anything close to a functioning democracy? You talk of ethnic cleansing but you conveniently fail to mention the ethnic cleansing of Jews all over the Middle East and the genocidal promise the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem got from Adolph Hitler. It's not paranoia when they really do want to murder you freshly evidenced on October 7. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozimoron Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 4 minutes ago, Jingthing said: Name me one Arab Muslim state with anything close to a functioning democracy? You talk of ethnic cleansing but you conveniently fail to mention the ethnic cleansing of Jews all over the Middle East and the genocidal promise the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem got from Adolph Hitler. It's not paranoia when they really do want to murder you freshly evidenced on October 7. Which part of that justifies refusal to support a Palestinian state? How could you imagine that Hamas will stop murdering Israelis without one? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 33 minutes ago, placnx said: It's obvious that many Israelis are pro-democracy for themselves, but not for Palestinians. Look at the demonstrations against Netanyahu's plan for amending the basic law concerning their Supreme Court, but the media in Israel brainwashes people to have a negative attitude demonizing Palestinians. So when 7 October happened, it was very easy for politicians and the military to incite genocidal thoughts. Until the bubble of existential paranoia is popped, it will be impossible to have peace in the Middle East. Lebanon used to be a country with many religious groups living in harmony despite foreign interference, such as US in 1958, Israeli overflights in the late 60s which I saw, then the 1975-90 Civil War when power sharing broke down, and IDF invasions in 1982 and 2006. Some people there really want a non-sectarian democracy, but the French set up a system that perpetuates sectarian divisions which has finally led to a kleptocracy that has bled the country to death. That would be you making some disjointed comments without much support. You claim Israeli media 'brainwashes' - you do not provide any support for that. You try to make some unclear point about the protests against the government somehow demonstrating what you claim - but fail to do so. You claims some 'bubble of existential paranoia' - on the heels of 7/10? Sometimes they are out to get you. You're all over the place with nonsense claims you cannot support or which fail to make some coherent argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 16 minutes ago, placnx said: You are quite right that Israel would not voluntarily agree to any solution - one-state or two-state. It's becoming quite evident to many countries that ethnic cleansing did not stop in 1948, but is an ongoing project of succeeding Israeli governments, only now it is blatant. "National suicide" is one of those dog whistle terms drummed into the national psyche, promoting the siege mentality rendering fair treatment of the Palestinian issue impossible. That's why international opprobrium of Israel and what goes with it may eventually lead to justice for the Palestinians, in spite of the gloomy predictions of Israeli media and politicians. You ignore the fact that Israeli leaders did engage the Palestinians in negotiations toward a two-state solution. Nothing in your post would hint that the Palestinians play a part in this as well. With some posters, like yourself, it is all about Israel. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 4 minutes ago, ozimoron said: Which part of that justifies refusal to support a Palestinian state? How could you imagine that Hamas will stop murdering Israelis without one? @ozimoron Oh, great, yet another Hamas justification post from the I'm-not-a-Hamas-fan poster. I can imagine Palestinians taking up a path of organized non-violent resistance (never seriously embraced). I can imagine the Palestinian not embracing violence, or the Hamas's far reaching agenda. You, on the other hand routinely make the case for violence. Justifying it. Normalizing it. Minimizing it. When it comes from the Palestinian side, that is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 13 minutes ago, ozimoron said: Which part of that justifies refusal to support a Palestinian state? How could you imagine that Hamas will stop murdering Israelis without one? Hamas wants to end Israel and kill all Jews so your question is bizarre. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozimoron Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Jingthing said: Hamas wants to end Israel and kill all Jews so your question is bizarre. And Hamas will continue to want to end Israel and kill everybody in it until there is a Palestine. This simple equation escapes Israeli war crime deniers. Edited February 1 by ozimoron 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 3 minutes ago, ozimoron said: And Hamas will continue to want to end Israel and kill everybody in it until there is a Palestine. This simple equation escapes Israeli war crime deniers. You're tripping dude. What Hamas wants is a River to the sea Palestine with no Israel and no Jews. Again you think Israel is dealing with Canadians. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozimoron Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Jingthing said: You're tripping dude. What Hamas wants is a River to the sea Palestine with no Israel and no Jews. Again you think Israel is dealing with Canadians. Both sides (currently) want the river to the sea. I think we have established that. I'm just trying to explain to you what you seem incapable of understanding. That Israel isn't going to fix this problem without the existence of a Palestine. Focus on that single concept. Edited February 1 by ozimoron 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkk Brian Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 14 minutes ago, ozimoron said: And Hamas will continue to want to end Israel and kill everybody in it until there is a Palestine. This simple equation escapes Israeli war crime deniers. Hamas apologists will continue promoting Hamas talking points. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozimoron Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 Just now, Bkk Brian said: Hamas apologists will continue promoting Hamas talking points. When was it a Hamas talking point to comprehend that they will not stop without a sovereign state? Why is it so hard for you to go there? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkk Brian Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 Just now, ozimoron said: When was it a Hamas talking point to comprehend that they will not stop without a sovereign state? Why is it so hard for you to go there? Like forever.....lol 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozimoron Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said: Like forever.....lol Curious that you find the prospect of continued Hamas terror attacks to be laughable. Yet again you can't bring yourself to even contemplate a Palestine let alone discuss it. Just ad hominems. As usual. We know who the real river to the sea fundamentalists are. Do you support Israeli annexation of Gaza? Edited February 1 by ozimoron 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkk Brian Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 (edited) 2 minutes ago, ozimoron said: Curious that you find the prospect of continued Hamas terror attacks to be laughable. Yet again you can't bring yourself to even contemplate a Palestine let alone discuss it. Just ad hominems. As usual. Curious that you have to have it spelled out that since its creation in 1987 that was always Hamas goal. Hence those very talking points Edited February 1 by Bkk Brian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozimoron Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 2 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said: Curious that you have to have it spelled out that since its creation in 1987 that was always Hamas goal. Hence those very talking points I know that it has been Hamas goal since their inception. I don't deny it. Quoting their ethos to someone who doesn't understand that they mean it shouldn't seem necessary but it appears to be so in your case. Anny way, I think you shouldn't be criticizing Hamas for river to the sea terminology when Israeli ministers use it and you yourself have demonstrated that you are a river to the sea zionist by your refusal to contemplate a Palestinian nation. What lands should belong to Israel and what should belong to Palestinians? You only need answer this one question in good faith to establish what your bona fides are. . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkk Brian Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 1 minute ago, ozimoron said: I know that it has been Hamas goal since their inception. I don't deny it. Quoting their ethos to someone who doesn't understand that they mean it shouldn't seem necessary but it appears to be so in your case. Anny way, I think you shouldn't be criticizing Hamas for river to the sea terminology when Israeli ministers use it and you yourself have demonstrated that you are a river to the sea zionist by your refusal to contemplate a Palestinian nation. What lands should belong to Israel and what should belong to Palestinians? You only need answer this one question in good faith to establish what your bona fides are. . Great so that was my point. Hamas talking points.....lol 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozimoron Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 5 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said: Great so that was my point. Hamas talking points.....lol Right. Who knew that you weren't going to go there. I'll draw my own conclusions and put you back on ignore. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkk Brian Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 Just now, ozimoron said: Right. Who knew that you weren't going to go there. I'll draw my own conclusions and put you back on ignore. Yes you draw your own conclusions. You always do. Carry on those Hamas talking points. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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