Hamas Unveils Truce Proposal, Netanyahu states its delusional

[Nick Carter icp]

1 hour ago, WDSmart said:

@Morch, Okay, here is my take on the salient points that are On Topic here in this Forum:

1. Both sides want the same thing: complete control of the land that makes up the state now called Israel.

2. Although this conflict has been going on for a long, long time, recently, since the terrorist attacks on Oct 7 and the follow-on, indiscriminate bombing, the two sides are now at a kind of a stalemate as far as reaching any kind of agreement as to how to stop all this carnage.
3. One side has taken hostages and is using their release as leverage in the negotiations, and the other side has a greatly superior military force and is using the prospects of a ceasefire as leverage in the negotiations.
4. If the side with the hostages agrees to a temporary solution, they will release the hostages, and then their leverage will be gone. The other side can institute a temporary ceasefire but can renew their military operations at any time.
5. Any permanent solution should include the return of all hostages, a permanent ceasefire, rebuilding the damaged areas, and a two-state solution.

I'll discuss all or any of these with you if you wish.

 

   You are proposing a complete victory for Hamas ,  a total win for Hamas .

Netanyahu is proposing a total victory for Israel 

[WDSmart]

2 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   You are proposing a complete victory for Hamas ,  a total win for Hamas .

Netanyahu is proposing a total victory for Israel 

I agree with half of your post. 

Netanyahu wants total victory for Israel. 

Hamas wants a total victory for Palestine.

I'd like to see some agreement that would give each of them all of the other things I think they want - except complete control of the land now called Israel. I'd like to see that split up somehow.

[Nick Carter icp]

3 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I agree with half of your post. 

Netanyahu wants total victory for Israel. 

Hamas wants a total victory for Palestine.

I'd like to see some agreement that would give each of them all of the other things I think they want - except complete control of the land now called Israel. I'd like to see that split up somehow.

 

   You seem to have agreed with ALL my post .

Which "half" did you disagree with ?

Hamas wants all the Land for themselves , until that stance changes, then there can be no peace .

That is the only obstacle in the way of a peaceful solution 

[WDSmart]

24 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   You seem to have agreed with ALL my post .

Which "half" did you disagree with ?

Hamas wants all the Land for themselves , until that stance changes, then there can be no peace .

That is the only obstacle in the way of a peaceful solution 

No, I only agreed with half of your previous post. I disagree that I was proposing a "total win for Hamas." What I had proposed was a two-state solution, not totally what Hamas wants.

But, yes, I agree with your comment above that "Hamas wants all the Land for themselves; until that stance changes, then there can be no peace. " Of course, I could say the same about Israel unless Netanyahu has his way, and he kills all of Hamas (and others along with them) and completely controls Gaza and the West Bank.

[Nick Carter icp]

9 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

No, I only agreed with half of your previous post. I disagree that I was proposing a "total win for Hamas." What I had proposed was a two-state solution, not totally what Hamas wants.

But, yes, I agree with your comment above that "Hamas wants all the Land for themselves; until that stance changes, then there can be no peace. " Of course, I could say the same about Israel unless Netanyahu has his way, and he kills all of Hamas (and others along with them) and completely controls Gaza and the West Bank.

 

   You do keep saying it and its wrong  , but, you can keep on saying it if you want .

You can keep on saying over and over again until people stop replying to it , as I have done 

[Morch]

3 hours ago, WDSmart said:

@Morch, Okay, here is my take on the salient points that are On Topic here in this Forum:

1. Both sides want the same thing: complete control of the land that makes up the state now called Israel.

2. Although this conflict has been going on for a long, long time, recently, since the terrorist attacks on Oct 7 and the follow-on, indiscriminate bombing, the two sides are now at a kind of a stalemate as far as reaching any kind of agreement as to how to stop all this carnage.
3. One side has taken hostages and is using their release as leverage in the negotiations, and the other side has a greatly superior military force and is using the prospects of a ceasefire as leverage in the negotiations.
4. If the side with the hostages agrees to a temporary solution, they will release the hostages, and then their leverage will be gone. The other side can institute a temporary ceasefire but can renew their military operations at any time.
5. Any permanent solution should include the return of all hostages, a permanent ceasefire, rebuilding the damaged areas, and a two-state solution.

I'll discuss all or any of these with you if you wish.

 

You're just deflecting, as usual. I was not referring to all issues discussed on these topics, but to specific things raised in your recent posts from this morning. You neither mention them, nor address them. How (un)surprising.

 

As for your list above, it's the same old nonsense. You have very little knowledge on sides' composition, agendas and so on - but somehow manage to imagine what these are. If this is your 'take', then you have not read much that was posted or linked on these topics, and you've obviously lacking much by way or prior knowledge regarding much of this (your 'opinions' notwithstanding).

 

It is not true that both sides want the same thing. There are various factions on either side, each with its own agenda, ideas and wishes. It's a whole lot more nuanced and complicated than that. Treating things in the crude, simplistic way you favor does not help understand things, or promote a solution. Quite the opposite.

 

There is on equivalency between the Hamas 7/10 attack and Israel's response. That's your opinion, maybe. It's not something agreed upon. Just another one of the lame 'same same' efforts. Same goes for pitting hostage taking vs. the response. Try harder.

 

It is not true that Israel could renew it's military operation at any time. There will be constraints involved, and Hamas would be able to improve it's positions during the ceasefire. Other than broadcasting a Hamas talking point (again), this has very little to do with reality. It also broadcasts that you see the use of hostages by Hamas as legitimate. Shame on you.

 

Talks about a two-state solution were carried out for decades. That you somehow imagine this could be sorted out in a timely manner is ridiculous. Also, your talking point does not address Hamas's role in things, which is a major issue.

 

In short, it's another nonsense list. You cannot even grasp the details and facts involved, so how can you meaningfully 'discuss' anything?

 

 

[Morch]

2 hours ago, WDSmart said:

I agree with half of your post. 

Netanyahu wants total victory for Israel. 

Hamas wants a total victory for Palestine.

I'd like to see some agreement that would give each of them all of the other things I think they want - except complete control of the land now called Israel. I'd like to see that split up somehow.

 

You are obviously still not aware of Hamas's agenda.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, WDSmart said:

No, I only agreed with half of your previous post. I disagree that I was proposing a "total win for Hamas." What I had proposed was a two-state solution, not totally what Hamas wants.

But, yes, I agree with your comment above that "Hamas wants all the Land for themselves; until that stance changes, then there can be no peace. " Of course, I could say the same about Israel unless Netanyahu has his way, and he kills all of Hamas (and others along with them) and completely controls Gaza and the West Bank.

 

As far as I'm aware, Netanyahu did not say anything about conquering and holding on to the Gaza Strip etc.

[Morch]

4 hours ago, billd766 said:

The main problem is that President Biden can't MAKE it happen.

 

Netanyahu IS the problem as he will reject ANY deal that involves Hamas.

 

He personally is probably the main and possibly the only problem to a settlement and an end to the slaughter and destruction on both sides.

 

If both he and the Hamas leader were no longer in the picture and moderate persons were in control on both sides, it would be so much easier and safer.

 

One possible way might be for the US and probably Iran to stop funneling weapons and money to each side, and for each of them to say to both Hamas and Israel, enough is enough.

 

If there are ANY more attacks from either side, retribution will be swift and painful.

 

I don't think that is possible though.

 

@billd766

 

You do not seem to know much about either side.

 

Netanyahu is hardly the hardliner you paint him as. He's more self-serving, opportunist first, ideologue second. His political position is compormised, and he's doing whatever he can to bolster his position, still hoping to pull through - or be able to cut some deal which gets him off the hook (regarding his legal issues), while saving face. As it is, he is dependent on the more extreme elements in his coalition. Painting him as the 'main and possibly' only problem is nonsense. It wouldn't be easier or smoother with other potential leaders - just a different set of difficulties.

 

Regarding Hamas (which you seem to mention as an afterthought) - which Hamas leader would that be? Are you even aware how Hamas leadership operates? There is no single leader, and the balance of power between Hamas leaders is a rather intricate game, like most political systems. Right now, it is not even clear who are the hardliners and on what issues.

 

You think if you took Netanyahu and the fabled 'Hamas leader' out of the equation it would imply 'moderates' stepping up? Based on what? Who are these moderates and what are their positions? What political alliances would they be beholden to? Not quite as simple as you present.

 

What would be Iran's motivation to stop funding and arming Hamas? Who would pressure them to do so? Again, fantasies. Retribution? From whom? Against whom?

 

You're all over the place.

 

 

[Neeranam]

On 2/8/2024 at 8:50 AM, flyingtlger said:

Apparently Netanyahu rejected the proposition:

Israel's Netanyahu rejects Gaza ceasefire offer, pledges to defeat Hamas

 

 

He wants all Hamas dead, so will not negotiate with them. He is willing to kill thousands of children to get this done. 

I'm surprised there's any Hamas left, he's flattened the whole of Gaza with indescriminate bombing. This man is a monster. 

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, billd766 said:

The main problem is that President Biden can't MAKE it happen.

 

Netanyahu IS the problem as he will reject ANY deal that involves Hamas.

 

He personally is probably the main and possibly the only problem to a settlement and an end to the slaughter and destruction on both sides.

 

If both he and the Hamas leader were no longer in the picture and moderate persons were in control on both sides, it would be so much easier and safer.

 

One possible way might be for the US and probably Iran to stop funneling weapons and money to each side, and for each of them to say to both Hamas and Israel, enough is enough.

 

If there are ANY more attacks from either side, retribution will be swift and painful.

 

I don't think that is possible though.

Biden could stop it tomorrow if he wanted to. If he doesn't send any more bombs they can't bomb Gaza and kill children, and if he stops sending bullets they will have to withdraw from Gaza to conserve what they have for all the other conflicts they have, like on the northern border.

Biden CHOOSES to continue to supply the means for israel to continue the slaughter of innocents in Gaza. He will be remembered in history, not for any good he did, but for the thousands of children who's deaths he facilitated. Not a good memory.

 

Iran will never agree as long as the illegal occupation of Palestinian land continues. IMO it's their greatest recruiting tool for attacks on American assets.

[thaibeachlovers]

16 hours ago, WDSmart said:

I agree with half of your post. 

Netanyahu wants total victory for Israel. 

Hamas wants a total victory for Palestine.

I'd like to see some agreement that would give each of them all of the other things I think they want - except complete control of the land now called Israel. I'd like to see that split up somehow.

The West bank and Gaza have never been part of modern israel. The West Bank is illegally occupied. All israelis need to be removed from Palestine and remain inside the 1948 borders.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Neeranam said:

He wants all Hamas dead, so will not negotiate with them. He is willing to kill thousands of children to get this done. 

I'm surprised there's any Hamas left, he's flattened the whole of Gaza with indescriminate bombing. This man is a monster. 

 

@Neeranam

 

Back to reality:

 

- there are negotiations going on, these are almost always a series of back and forth offers/statements.

- 'flattened the whole of Gaza' - is an exaggeration, not fact. Same goes for 'indiscriminate bombing'.

 

Apparently no issues with Hamas, as usual.

[Morch]

51 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Biden could stop it tomorrow if he wanted to. If he doesn't send any more bombs they can't bomb Gaza and kill children, and if he stops sending bullets they will have to withdraw from Gaza to conserve what they have for all the other conflicts they have, like on the northern border.

Biden CHOOSES to continue to supply the means for israel to continue the slaughter of innocents in Gaza. He will be remembered in history, not for any good he did, but for the thousands of children who's deaths he facilitated. Not a good memory.

 

Iran will never agree as long as the illegal occupation of Palestinian land continues. IMO it's their greatest recruiting tool for attacks on American assets.

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

Quote

He will be remembered in history

 

And a day or two onward, you'll berate another poster for 'crystal ball' posts,  or something.

 

 

[Neeranam]

20 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@Neeranam

 

Back to reality:

 

- there are negotiations going on, these are almost always a series of back and forth offers/statements.

- 'flattened the whole of Gaza' - is an exaggeration, not fact. Same goes for 'indiscriminate bombing'.

 

Apparently no issues with Hamas, as usual.

Negotiations?

Israel are trying to kill all of Hamas. Do you know what percentage of Hamas they have already killed?

They have flattened the majority of Gaza and you know that very well.

 

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Negotiations?

Israel are trying to kill all of Hamas. Do you know what percentage of Hamas they have already killed?

They have flattened the majority of Gaza and you know that very well.

 

 

@Neeranam

 

Reality, it's a thing.

 

The subject matter of this topic is negotiations.

There were previous rounds of negotiations during this war, some bearing fruit, others not.

 

I don't know what percentage of Hamas fighting men they killed. Some reports suggest about a third, Israeli leaders claimed half (which I think is either an exaggeration, or includes estimated on wounded/out of circulation men). This was discussed or mentioned on these topics, and news reports many times. Guess you missed it. Like you missed the fact that there are (and were) negotiations.

 

You originally claimed all Gaza was 'flattened'. Now you backtrack to 'majority'.

 

I know many things very well, like the fact that there are negotiations.

 

Also, always amusing to see some posters hyping what Netanyahu says on some posts, then on others vehemently claim his words cannot be trusted.

 

[billd766]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Biden could stop it tomorrow if he wanted to. If he doesn't send any more bombs they can't bomb Gaza and kill children, and if he stops sending bullets they will have to withdraw from Gaza to conserve what they have for all the other conflicts they have, like on the northern border.

Biden CHOOSES to continue to supply the means for israel to continue the slaughter of innocents in Gaza. He will be remembered in history, not for any good he did, but for the thousands of children who's deaths he facilitated. Not a good memory.

 

Iran will never agree as long as the illegal occupation of Palestinian land continues. IMO it's their greatest recruiting tool for attacks on American assets.

I am not so sure that if the USA halted all arms shipments to Israel, that it would make that much difference, certainly in the short term.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_industry_of_Israel

 

The defense industry of Israel is a strategically important sector and a large employer, as well as a major supplier of the Israel Defense Forces. The country is one of the world's major exporters of military equipment, accounting for 10% of the world total in 2007. Three Israeli companies were listed on the 2017 Stockholm International Peace Research Institute index of the world's top 100 arms-producing and military service companies: Elbit Systems, Israel Aerospace Industries and RAFAEL.[1][2] It is also a major player in the global arms market and is the 6th largest arms exporter in the world as of 2014.[3] Total arms transfer agreements topped $12.9 billion between 2004 and 2011.[4] There are over 150 active defense companies based in the country with combined revenues of more than $3.5 billion annually.[5] Israeli defense equipment exports reached $7 billion in 2012, making it a 20 percent increase from the amount of defense-related exports in 2011. With the war in Ukraine, arms exports reached $12.5 billion in 2022.[6] Much of the exports are sold to the United States and Europe. Other major regions that purchase Israeli defense equipment include Southeast Asia and Latin America.[7][8][9] India is also major country for Israeli arms exports and has remained Israel's largest arms market in the world.[10][11]

 

What may or will make a big difference, is how many defence workers have been called up and either injured or wounded in the current conflict.

 

It may be however that those workers, both male and female may be exempt from military service as essential personnel. That is something I have no knowledge about.

 

It also maybe that in the short term Israel could temporarily halt arms exports and divert those exports for its own use.

 

It is of little use for the UN and governments worldwide to keep talking and wringing their hands. IMHO it is long past the time for talking and time for the world to actually DO something to stop BOTH sides from continuing this senseless, pointless slaughter of the innocent people on BOTH sides.

 

Neither Netanyahu nor who is running Hamas this week, ( As of November 2023, Yahya Sinwar continues to be the leader of Hamas in the Gaza Strip. Hamas control of the northern part of the Gaza Strip came to an end in January 2024, according to Israeli government statements), seem to have any interest in stopping this. Hamas have attempted to do something with the ceasefire plan that Qatar and Egypt have come up with, although they want to modify it.

 

Netanyahu and Israel have rejected the plan outright.

 

Where does the world go from here I wonder?

 

My thought is to take Netanyahu and Yahya Sinwar into a room and bang their heads together to knock some sense into them, until they come to a peace plan.

 

 

[Morch]

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

I am not so sure that if the USA halted all arms shipments to Israel, that it would make that much difference, certainly in the short term.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_industry_of_Israel

 

The defense industry of Israel is a strategically important sector and a large employer, as well as a major supplier of the Israel Defense Forces. The country is one of the world's major exporters of military equipment, accounting for 10% of the world total in 2007. Three Israeli companies were listed on the 2017 Stockholm International Peace Research Institute index of the world's top 100 arms-producing and military service companies: Elbit Systems, Israel Aerospace Industries and RAFAEL.[1][2] It is also a major player in the global arms market and is the 6th largest arms exporter in the world as of 2014.[3] Total arms transfer agreements topped $12.9 billion between 2004 and 2011.[4] There are over 150 active defense companies based in the country with combined revenues of more than $3.5 billion annually.[5] Israeli defense equipment exports reached $7 billion in 2012, making it a 20 percent increase from the amount of defense-related exports in 2011. With the war in Ukraine, arms exports reached $12.5 billion in 2022.[6] Much of the exports are sold to the United States and Europe. Other major regions that purchase Israeli defense equipment include Southeast Asia and Latin America.[7][8][9] India is also major country for Israeli arms exports and has remained Israel's largest arms market in the world.[10][11]

 

What may or will make a big difference, is how many defence workers have been called up and either injured or wounded in the current conflict.

 

It may be however that those workers, both male and female may be exempt from military service as essential personnel. That is something I have no knowledge about.

 

It also maybe that in the short term Israel could temporarily halt arms exports and divert those exports for its own use.

 

It is of little use for the UN and governments worldwide to keep talking and wringing their hands. IMHO it is long past the time for talking and time for the world to actually DO something to stop BOTH sides from continuing this senseless, pointless slaughter of the innocent people on BOTH sides.

 

Neither Netanyahu nor who is running Hamas this week, ( As of November 2023, Yahya Sinwar continues to be the leader of Hamas in the Gaza Strip. Hamas control of the northern part of the Gaza Strip came to an end in January 2024, according to Israeli government statements), seem to have any interest in stopping this. Hamas have attempted to do something with the ceasefire plan that Qatar and Egypt have come up with, although they want to modify it.

 

Netanyahu and Israel have rejected the plan outright.

 

Where does the world go from here I wonder?

 

My thought is to take Netanyahu and Yahya Sinwar into a room and bang their heads together to knock some sense into them, until they come to a peace plan.

 

 

 

@billd766

 

You can obviously access Wikipedia. So it's not unreasonable to assume you can look up how Hamas leadership operates. It's not about a single guy. It's not 'who-runs-it-this-week'. A whole lot more to it.

 

Hamas's conditions are a non-starter. And Israel's outright rejection was expected. These things follow certain forms. It's always like that. Nothing new or surprising about how this goes.

 

 

[WDSmart]

19 hours ago, Morch said:

 

You're just deflecting, as usual. I was not referring to all issues discussed on these topics, but to specific things raised in your recent posts from this morning. You neither mention them, nor address them. How (un)surprising.

 

As for your list above, it's the same old nonsense. You have very little knowledge on sides' composition, agendas and so on - but somehow manage to imagine what these are. If this is your 'take', then you have not read much that was posted or linked on these topics, and you've obviously lacking much by way or prior knowledge regarding much of this (your 'opinions' notwithstanding).

 

It is not true that both sides want the same thing. There are various factions on either side, each with its own agenda, ideas and wishes. It's a whole lot more nuanced and complicated than that. Treating things in the crude, simplistic way you favor does not help understand things, or promote a solution. Quite the opposite.

 

There is on equivalency between the Hamas 7/10 attack and Israel's response. That's your opinion, maybe. It's not something agreed upon. Just another one of the lame 'same same' efforts. Same goes for pitting hostage taking vs. the response. Try harder.

 

It is not true that Israel could renew it's military operation at any time. There will be constraints involved, and Hamas would be able to improve it's positions during the ceasefire. Other than broadcasting a Hamas talking point (again), this has very little to do with reality. It also broadcasts that you see the use of hostages by Hamas as legitimate. Shame on you.

 

Talks about a two-state solution were carried out for decades. That you somehow imagine this could be sorted out in a timely manner is ridiculous. Also, your talking point does not address Hamas's role in things, which is a major issue.

 

In short, it's another nonsense list. You cannot even grasp the details and facts involved, so how can you meaningfully 'discuss' anything?

In my previous post, I was not "deflecting." I was trying to get the discussions on this Forum back on Topic.

My list above is becoming more and more the talking points being discussed on CNN, my primary source of news. It is true that both sides want the same thing - total control of the land now called the State of Israel. I agree there are various factions on both sides, but I was referring to the faction now in charge on each side.

I now see what I believed was the "equivalency" of the Oct 7 attack and the subsequent Israeli bombing of Gaza. Now, it's clear that the bombing has become much more egregious, with, now, almost 30,000 killed and nearly 70,000 wounded.

Gaza health ministry: 27,708 Palestinians killed in Israeli strikes on Gaza since Oct 7 (alkhaleejtoday.co)

It is true that when Hamas releases all the hostages after a ceasefire that Israel could then just renew their military operations. You mention above there would be "constraints involved." Who would enforce the constraints? I suggested that in every one of my suggested proposals, and wanted a UN peacekeeping force to do that. You said a UN peacekeeping force could not, so who is it that YOU think (excuse me, "know for a fact") could enforce any constraints?

I don't see the use of hostages as a bargaining point any worse than I see the bombing of civilians. But that's what is happening right now, so, IMO, we need to figure out how to weave these into any agreement.

I know a two-state solution has been proposed many times before. But now, IMO and in a lot of other's opinions, it must be discussed again because I see no other way this horrible situation will ever be solved.

I am able to "grasp the details and facts involved."  I do agree, however, that I am unable to "meaningfully 'discuss' anything"...with you. But I'm sure we'd disagree on just why.

 

 

[retarius]

Stop the indiscriminate murders by the IDF now. I want to see a permanent cease fire now.

[Nick Carter icp]

1 minute ago, retarius said:

Stop the indiscriminate murders by the IDF now. I want to see a permanent cease fire now.

 

   Netanyahu's  blocked you, he cannot read what you write , so you are wasting your time 

[scottiejohn]

18 minutes ago, retarius said:

Stop the indiscriminate murders by the IDF now. I want to see a permanent cease fire now.

Stop the indiscriminate murders by the IDF all sides now. I want to see a permanent cease fire now.

[scottiejohn]

16 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

Netanyahu's  blocked you

So he says!!

[Nick Carter icp]

36 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

It is true that when Hamas releases all the hostages after a ceasefire that Israel could then just renew their military operations. 

 

 

 

   That could happen any time when the hostages are released, the only way to stop that from happening would be to hold the hostages forever .

   Holding the hostages until they die of old age .

That isn't really an option, because Israel wouldn't accept that

[xylophone]

Surely a fairly simple solution would be for a ceasefire for a period of time to be agreed whilst Hamas released all of the hostages, and Israel to release the same number of prisoners which it has – – a release of hostages for the release of some prisoners. Nothing difficult about that.

 

The problem, amongst many, seems to be that Hamas will agree to release a certain number of hostages whilst wanting the Israelis to release many hundreds of prisoners, many of whom are convicted of terrorist acts and that's not a fair trade in anyone's language.

 

Also of course Hamas will not lay down their arms, simply because they are a terrorist organisation whose main aim is to destroy Israel and the Israelis, so you have a stalemate which is damn near impossible to navigate.

 

When Hamas is wiped out, things could return to normal, apart from the fact that many Palestinians support Hamas and their activities, so that will go on, sadly.

[WDSmart]

1 minute ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   That could happen any time when the hostages are released, the only way to stop that from happening would be to hold the hostages forever .

   Holding the hostages until they die of old age .

That isn't really an option, because Israel wouldn't accept that

Yes, that is why I have recommended having a UN peacekeeping force put into place to help coordinate and enforce all the aspects of any agreement. 

[WDSmart]

3 minutes ago, xylophone said:

Surely a fairly simple solution would be for a ceasefire for a period of time to be agreed whilst Hamas released all of the hostages, and Israel to release the same number of prisoners which it has – – a release of hostages for the release of some prisoners. Nothing difficult about that.

 

The problem, amongst many, seems to be that Hamas will agree to release a certain number of hostages whilst wanting the Israelis to release many hundreds of prisoners, many of whom are convicted of terrorist acts and that's not a fair trade in anyone's language.

 

Also of course Hamas will not lay down their arms, simply because they are a terrorist organisation whose main aim is to destroy Israel and the Israelis, so you have a stalemate which is damn near impossible to navigate.

 

When Hamas is wiped out, things could return to normal, apart from the fact that many Palestinians support Hamas and their activities, so that will go on, sadly.

"When Hamas is wiped out, things could return to normal,..."

"Normal," what is that? Is that the "normal" before 1947 when the UN created the state of Israel? Or is "normal" the division of land that was in place right after the creation of Israel? Or is "normal" the way things were on Oct 6, 2023? 

[xylophone]

47 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

"When Hamas is wiped out, things could return to normal,..."

"Normal," what is that? Is that the "normal" before 1947 when the UN created the state of Israel? Or is "normal" the division of land that was in place right after the creation of Israel? Or is "normal" the way things were on Oct 6, 2023? 

Palestinians living side by side with Israelis would IMO be normal, even if they never managed it in the recent past!! You took my use of the word "normal" too literally.

[billd766]

4 minutes ago, xylophone said:

Palestinians living side by side with Israelis would IMO be normal, even if they never managed it in the past!! You took my use of the word "normal" too literally.

But the did manage it in the past for hundreds of years.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, WDSmart said:

In my previous post, I was not "deflecting." I was trying to get the discussions on this Forum back on Topic.

My list above is becoming more and more the talking points being discussed on CNN, my primary source of news. It is true that both sides want the same thing - total control of the land now called the State of Israel. I agree there are various factions on both sides, but I was referring to the faction now in charge on each side.

I now see what I believed was the "equivalency" of the Oct 7 attack and the subsequent Israeli bombing of Gaza. Now, it's clear that the bombing has become much more egregious, with, now, almost 30,000 killed and nearly 70,000 wounded.

Gaza health ministry: 27,708 Palestinians killed in Israeli strikes on Gaza since Oct 7 (alkhaleejtoday.co)

It is true that when Hamas releases all the hostages after a ceasefire that Israel could then just renew their military operations. You mention above there would be "constraints involved." Who would enforce the constraints? I suggested that in every one of my suggested proposals, and wanted a UN peacekeeping force to do that. You said a UN peacekeeping force could not, so who is it that YOU think (excuse me, "know for a fact") could enforce any constraints?

I don't see the use of hostages as a bargaining point any worse than I see the bombing of civilians. But that's what is happening right now, so, IMO, we need to figure out how to weave these into any agreement.

I know a two-state solution has been proposed many times before. But now, IMO and in a lot of other's opinions, it must be discussed again because I see no other way this horrible situation will ever be solved.

I am able to "grasp the details and facts involved."  I do agree, however, that I am unable to "meaningfully 'discuss' anything"...with you. But I'm sure we'd disagree on just why.

 

 

 

You were most definitely deflecting, running away from addressing two 'points' you put up before that:

 

- An allegation that implied Israel is killing all the Palestinian within it's state boundaries.

- A suggestion that Hamas would hold on to the most vulnerable, the more innocent hostages - children, until the last minute.

 

The first is a lie, the second is vile (even Hamas didn't go that far).

 

You don't want to address them, fine - not expecting anything meaningful anyway. But do not claim that you're not deflecting, when you obviously are.

 

The list you put up is not quite what's discussed on CNN, at least not in the manner and biased way you present things. Maybe that's how you 'grasp' what's being commented on, but it's not quite what you're on about.

 

It is not true that both sides want the same thing. For starters, you can't even identify the sides, relying instead on some personal nonsense definition which do not conform to political reality. You are even wrong with regard to 'the faction in charge' on each side. These are basic facts. Not 'opinions', facts.

 

You can assert or believe that there's an equivalency. That does not make it into an agreed upon position, or one generally accepted. So once more, either inaccurate, or dishonest. Pick one.

 

As for Israel renewing operations after a ceasefire and hostage exchange, this may be so, but it is far from a fact or a done thing, as you make it to be. For starters, the Hamas is not unaware of this, and requires assurances regarding this. Constraints would be anything from the Hamas regrouping during the ceasefire, or breaking the agreement again and holding on to hostage after regrouping, or the cost and operational validity of withdrawing from the Gaza Strip and going back in again being too great, or the USA putting it's foot down, or whatever. If Israel was to sign an official agreement, or agree to unofficial arrangement (but, say, with USA as a side) I doubt it could walk out of it, or break it very easily. Noticeably you do not raise the possibility of Hamas renewing hostilities, or breaking the agreement - in your 'opinion' these are things Israel would do, but not Hamas.

 

You've made your despicable view of Hamas's use of hostage taking and holding on to hostages clear. Even the Hamas didn't go there. You take the extra step. And expect to be taken seriously. Or your 'opinions treated as some 'balanced' view. Bizarre. Vile. Goes hand in hand with using propaganda memes and pushing Hamas talking points.

You don't seem to know a whole lot about the content of past discussions regarding the two-state solution, or your wouldn't come up with such inane 'plans', as you did. Almost all of the talk regarding the two-state solution references these past discussions. Somehow, you feel that these could be ignored, and that the whole thing should be done from scratch, based on your uninformed 'opinions'. Nobody is seriously talking about a two-state solution materializing right now, or even right after the war. This will not happen. The talk is about how to renew the peace process, how to make it viable. There's virtually no serious view that advises sorting the two-state solution first, then deal with the Gaza situation - which is basically what you're on about. What this showcases, again, is your lack of interest in the people involved. You don't mind them suffering some more. In that too, not so different from Hamas leadership.

 

You have just demonstrated, again, that you do not grasp details and facts involved. Also, if you follow your own posts and interactions, you do not actually manage to discuss much with anyone - most of your exchanges get stuck real quick in that quagmire of you insisting on your 'opinion' being equal to facts, and your made up definitions meaning something in reality.