As Israel attacks Rafah, US offers only words of caution

[Bkk Brian]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

All they have is IDF propaganda released information. IMO it's becoming clear the IDF leadership is not primarily concerned with rescuing hostages alive, but is using them as an excuse to attack hospitals, which I understand is a war crime.

The fact that the IDF has just rescued 2 hostages alive slipped your clarity. They were being held by Hamas which I understand to be a war crime.

[WDSmart]

12 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

It is TOTTALLY justified because of Hamas's terrorist actions.  End of story!

This is the fundamental problem: Hamas' terrorist actions, which I acknowledge, do not give Israel the right to retaliate in any way they want, at least if they don't want to be found guilty of committing war crimes.

[WDSmart]

12 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

The ICJ has no relevance whilst this totally provoked war by Hamas and their cohorts etc continues! 

If you are still bothered try discussing it after Israel hopefully wipes Hamas and all of it's supporters of the face of the earth! 

Here we go again. Hamas launched a terrorist attack on Israel, so you believe Israel is justified in going into Gaza and destroying everything and killing everyone. This, again, is the "He hit me first!" excuse.  

Edited February 18 by WDSmart

[WDSmart]

12 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   My opinion is that you desperately wanted Israel to lose a war and to be wiped off the map and you side with the Palestinians and now that Israeli seems to be winning the war, your last hope of victory  is that Hamas wins through the legal system .

   Like, the World Court finds Israel to be guilty of genocide and war crimes and the World Court cancels Israel's right to exist and declares a Palestinian state from the river to the sea , kind of way 

I don't want "...Israel to lose a war and be wiped off the map..." I do want this war to cease and be resolved by an agreement between the parties, or if that's not possible, by the legal system. I do think the ICJ will eventually find Israel and Hamas, if a case is filed against them, of war crimes. If that happens, I do think the UN will expel Israel from being a legitimate state or at least severely reprimand them. 

What I hope will be the eventual outcome of all this will not be Israel being "wiped off the map" or the UN declaring a single Palestinian state, but will be a two-state solution establishing the individual states of both Israel and Palestine.

Edited February 18 by WDSmart

[WDSmart]

2 hours ago, ezzra said:

To really sums it up, the Palestinians will never be 'happy' even if you give them the whole of Israel and all the jews

will leave back to other countries, there will continue to need billions in aid as 'refugees',

 

would Israel/Jews haters will stop hating and blaming ? Hell no, millions will be continue to look

for new reasons to hate Jews because that is what the world did and still do for centuries...

I agree the Palestinians will not be "happy" with a two-state solution, just as Israel will not be happy with one. But that, IMO, is the only solution to this war.

I also agree that there is a significantly large group of people who are Israeli/Jew-haters. They will not stop hating. But I also know many in that group live in the West and are also Arab/Muslim-haters. And that also will continue long after this war has ended, no matter what the circumstances of that ending are.

Edited February 18 by WDSmart

[Jingthing]

2 hours ago, WDSmart said:

I agree the Palestinians will not be "happy" with a two-state solution, just as Israel will not be happy with one. But that, IMO, is the only solution to this war.

I also agree that there is a significantly large group of people who are Israeli/Jew-haters. They will not stop hating. But I also know many in that group live in the West and are also Arab/Muslim-haters. And that also will continue long after this war has ended, no matter what the circumstances of that ending are.

The UN created two states last time!

The Jews agreed.

The Arabs attacked.

This time as you say NEITHER side wants that.

I agree in theory two states is the only answer, but how to ever get there is another matter and at this point in time, it seems further away than ever.

So reasonable people all over the world are still saying two states instead of River to the Sea BS but they may as well say puppies are cute for the effect that has.

Edited February 18 by Jingthing

[Bkk Brian]

 

Urban warfare expert says Israeli military taking unprecedented steps to protect Gaza civilians

"As someone who teaches division level urban warfare, what has really blown my mind is that Israel issued maps to the civilians [in Gaza] telling them where they would be operating each day. … I've never seen a military do that," said Spencer, who visited Israel last month and toured the combat zone in and around Gaza. 

"Doing this puts the attacking military at a disadvantage because it signals to the defending military what they’re doing," he said. "The element of surprise is usually a top priority in wars, but Israel is giving up all of that in order to prevent civilian harm.

"If that is going to be the standard going forward, I don't know how the U.S. military and others are going to do that. We’re not going to send text messages. We’re not going to be able to put out maps, even if we do decide to give warnings."

https://www.foxnews.com/world/urban-warfare-expert-says-israeli-military-taking-unprecedented-steps-to-protect-gaza-civilians

[WDSmart]

17 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

 

Urban warfare expert says Israeli military taking unprecedented steps to protect Gaza civilians

"As someone who teaches division level urban warfare, what has really blown my mind is that Israel issued maps to the civilians [in Gaza] telling them where they would be operating each day. … I've never seen a military do that," said Spencer, who visited Israel last month and toured the combat zone in and around Gaza. 

"Doing this puts the attacking military at a disadvantage because it signals to the defending military what they’re doing," he said. "The element of surprise is usually a top priority in wars, but Israel is giving up all of that in order to prevent civilian harm.

"If that is going to be the standard going forward, I don't know how the U.S. military and others are going to do that. We’re not going to send text messages. We’re not going to be able to put out maps, even if we do decide to give warnings."

https://www.foxnews.com/world/urban-warfare-expert-says-israeli-military-taking-unprecedented-steps-to-protect-gaza-civilians

And here are videos posted by IDF soldiers showing just the opposite... What Israeli Soldiers’ Social Media Videos in Gaza Reveal - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

[Bkk Brian]

23 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

And here are videos posted by IDF soldiers showing just the opposite... What Israeli Soldiers’ Social Media Videos in Gaza Reveal - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

How is that the opposite? My post was about the IDF going to extraordinary lengths to save lives as claimed by the expert, not the first one by the way, nothing to do with videos on social media of soldiers shunting cars with bulldozers and blowing up tunnel systems to music. 

[WDSmart]

20 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

How is that the opposite? My post was about the IDF going to extraordinary lengths to save lives as claimed by the expert, not the first one by the way, nothing to do with videos on social media of soldiers shunting cars with bulldozers and blowing up tunnel systems to music. 

It shows the attitude of some (but not all) of the IDF soldiers. They are enjoying imposing their might and destroying much of Gaza. I'm sure many also enjoy killing Palestinians, but that's the same as any military force, not just the IDF or Hamas. It's expressed in the often-used idiom, "the dogs of war." 
"The shortened phrase “the dogs of war” captures the idea of war as a force that, once unleashed, is very difficult to control from either side." Dogs of War – Origin and Meaning (grammarist.com)

[Bkk Brian]

4 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

It shows the attitude of some (but not all) of the IDF soldiers. They are enjoying imposing their might and destroying much of Gaza. I'm sure many also enjoy killing Palestinians, but that's the same as any military force, not just the IDF or Hamas. It's expressed in the often-used idiom, "the dogs of war." 
"The shortened phrase “the dogs of war” captures the idea of war as a force that, once unleashed, is very difficult to control from either side." Dogs of War – Origin and Meaning (grammarist.com)

 I'm sure many also enjoy killing Palestinians

 

You are sure of a lot of things but always short on facts

[transam]

4 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

 I'm sure many also enjoy killing Palestinians

 

You are sure of a lot of things but always short on facts

Indeed...........🤔

[WDSmart]

1 hour ago, transam said:

Indeed...........🤔

There are many videos posted online by IDF soldiers showing them proudly mistreating Palestinian civilians. I won't bother posting any links since they are distasteful, but you can find them in an online search yourself. 

[thaibeachlovers]

5 hours ago, WDSmart said:

Here we go again. Hamas launched a terrorist attack on Israel, so you believe Israel is justified in going into Gaza and destroying everything and killing everyone. This, again, is the "He hit me first!" excuse.  

It's like some kindy bully getting a bunch of his mates to beat up a kid that refused to take his bullying and hit back.

[Bkk Brian]

Scenes of Rafah and other areas of Gaza before Oct 7th. This is what many apologists called the open prison. Of course the terror network was kept hidden underneath, just think what could have been done with all that money.

 

I can’t believe they sacrificed all this for a one-day killing and raping spree. I can’t believe they spent so long building a military tunnel network under all this, waiting for the day they could invade, abduct Israelis, then try to hide under this.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

5 hours ago, WDSmart said:

I agree the Palestinians will not be "happy" with a two-state solution, just as Israel will not be happy with one. But that, IMO, is the only solution to this war.

I also agree that there is a significantly large group of people who are Israeli/Jew-haters. They will not stop hating. But I also know many in that group live in the West and are also Arab/Muslim-haters. And that also will continue long after this war has ended, no matter what the circumstances of that ending are.

IMO there are no solutions that will make everyone happy.

 

What is clear though, is that if the Palestinians are not given a homeland that israel has zero control over, the situation will continue till either all the israelis or all the Palestinians are removed from Palestine.

[thaibeachlovers]

13 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

There are many videos posted online by IDF soldiers showing them proudly mistreating Palestinian civilians. I won't bother posting any links since they are distasteful, but you can find them in an online search yourself. 

Al Jazeera has shown some of them and they are truly vile. IMO the only way anyone could take pleasure from destroying other people's homes and businesses and humiliating people under their total control is if they are barbarians. The scenes shown were not carried out by civilized people, IMO.

[thaibeachlovers]

5 hours ago, WDSmart said:

I don't want "...Israel to lose a war and be wiped off the map..." I do want this war to cease and be resolved by an agreement between the parties, or if that's not possible, by the legal system. I do think the ICJ will eventually find Israel and Hamas, if a case is filed against them, of war crimes. If that happens, I do think the UN will expel Israel from being a legitimate state or at least severely reprimand them. 

What I hope will be the eventual outcome of all this will not be Israel being "wiped off the map" or the UN declaring a single Palestinian state, but will be a two-state solution establishing the individual states of both Israel and Palestine.

In what possible scenario could israel lose the conflict? They have all the planes, tanks, artillery, navy etc and Hamas has light weapons and RPGs.

Any claim that Hamas could "win" the conflict is merely israeli propaganda IMO.

[transam]

20 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

There are many videos posted online by IDF soldiers showing them proudly mistreating Palestinian civilians. I won't bother posting any links since they are distasteful, but you can find them in an online search yourself. 

Sorry chummy, not interested, show me a conflict where that stuff didn't happen. I class you as a Corbynite, make any excuses to cover atrocities by terrorists, which you have.........

[transam]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

In what possible scenario could israel lose the conflict? They have all the planes, tanks, artillery, navy etc and Hamas has light weapons and RPGs.

Any claim that Hamas could "win" the conflict is merely israeli propaganda IMO.

Did you forget about Hamas supporters in the region supplying, sending rockets etc....? 

[ezzra]

I'm a fortune teller and i can predict that Israel will have to retreat from Gaza under some sort of agreement to

appease everybody, and that Hamas will continue to rule and the palestinians forever will be called 'refugees'

and will still need billions in aid every year, and that at some point in the future the whole thing will start

again, just like it did a dozen times already simply because there is no plausible solution that EVERYONE will

be happy with, certainly not Iran...

[Neeranam]

4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

The UN created two states last time!

The Jews agreed.

The Arabs attacked.

This time as you say NEITHER side wants that.

I agree in theory two states is the only answer, but how to ever get there is another matter and at this point in time, it seems further away than ever.

So reasonable people all over the world are still saying two states instead of River to the Sea BS but they may as well say puppies are cute for the effect that has.

While you are obviously biased, and I'm not blaming you, both sides are responsibile for peace and the establishment of a two-state solution, violations and breaches have occurred on both sides. Blaming one party while absolving the other of any wrongdoing only perpetuates the cycle of violence and hinders the prospects for a just and lasting resolution to the conflict.

Here are examples of instances where Israel also breached agreements:

Settlement Expansion: Despite commitments to freeze settlement construction in the occupied territories, Israel has consistently expanded its settlements, which are considered illegal under international law. These actions undermine the territorial integrity and viability of a future Palestinian state.

Military Actions: Israel has conducted military operations in Gaza and the West Bank, resulting in civilian casualties and infrastructure damage. While Israel often cites security concerns, the scale and intensity of these operations have raised international concerns about proportionality and adherence to humanitarian law.

Resource Control: Israel maintains control over key resources such as water and land in the occupied territories, limiting Palestinian access and development. This control exacerbates economic disparities and impedes the establishment of a viable Palestinian state.

Jerusalem Status: The status of Jerusalem remains a contentious issue in negotiations. Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem and its declaration of Jerusalem as its capital have been widely criticized by the international community and undermine efforts to reach a negotiated settlement.

Blockades and Restrictions: Israel imposes restrictions on the movement of goods and people in and out of the Gaza Strip, exacerbating humanitarian conditions and hindering economic development. The blockade has been described by human rights organizations as a form of collective punishment against the civilian population.

[Neeranam]

3 minutes ago, ezzra said:

I'm a fortune teller and i can predict that Israel will have to retreat from Gaza under some sort of agreement to

appease everybody, and that Hamas will continue to rule and the palestinians forever will be called 'refugees'

and will still need billions in aid every year, and that at some point in the future the whole thing will start

again, just like it did a dozen times already simply because there is no plausible solution that EVERYONE will

be happy with, certainly not Iran...

Who made them  and is makig them refugees? Perhaps they ought to stop.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

IMO there are no solutions that will make everyone happy.

 

What is clear though, is that if the Palestinians are not given a homeland that israel has zero control over, the situation will continue till either all the israelis or all the Palestinians are removed from Palestine.

That's not clear at all. 

[Jingthing]

41 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

While you are obviously biased, and I'm not blaming you, both sides are responsibile for peace and the establishment of a two-state solution, violations and breaches have occurred on both sides. Blaming one party while absolving the other of any wrongdoing only perpetuates the cycle of violence and hinders the prospects for a just and lasting resolution to the conflict.

Here are examples of instances where Israel also breached agreements:

Settlement Expansion: Despite commitments to freeze settlement construction in the occupied territories, Israel has consistently expanded its settlements, which are considered illegal under international law. These actions undermine the territorial integrity and viability of a future Palestinian state.

Military Actions: Israel has conducted military operations in Gaza and the West Bank, resulting in civilian casualties and infrastructure damage. While Israel often cites security concerns, the scale and intensity of these operations have raised international concerns about proportionality and adherence to humanitarian law.

Resource Control: Israel maintains control over key resources such as water and land in the occupied territories, limiting Palestinian access and development. This control exacerbates economic disparities and impedes the establishment of a viable Palestinian state.

Jerusalem Status: The status of Jerusalem remains a contentious issue in negotiations. Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem and its declaration of Jerusalem as its capital have been widely criticized by the international community and undermine efforts to reach a negotiated settlement.

Blockades and Restrictions: Israel imposes restrictions on the movement of goods and people in and out of the Gaza Strip, exacerbating humanitarian conditions and hindering economic development. The blockade has been described by human rights organizations as a form of collective punishment against the civilian population.

Your reply had nothing to do with what I wrote but it did give you a chance for you to regurgigate a typical Israel demonization narrative.

[Jingthing]

37 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Who made them  and is makig them refugees? Perhaps they ought to stop.

Hamas?

[Neeranam]

7 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Your reply had nothing to do with what I wrote but it did give you a chance for you to regurgigate a typical Israel demonization narrative.

Nonsense, I wrote Israel's part in it. You said 'Arabs attacked'.

Noticing how you didn't deny any of what I wrote.

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Nonsense, I wrote Israel's part in it. You said 'Arabs attacked'.

Noticing how you didn't deny any of what I wrote.

Stop lying.

You know perfectly well I was talking specifically about right after the U.N. partition and what I stated was the objective fact of what happened then.

 

[Nick Carter icp]

56 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

 

Blockades and Restrictions: Israel imposes restrictions on the movement of goods and people in and out of the Gaza Strip, exacerbating humanitarian conditions and hindering economic development. The blockade has been described by human rights organizations as a form of collective punishment against the civilian population.

 

   Egypt's wall stopping Gazains leaving .

Like locking people in a burning house and not letting them out

 

 

 

[ezzra]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

Who made them  and is makig them refugees? Perhaps they ought to stop.

It's all come down to a choice to be and remain a refugee for decades while Hamas is using the Palestinians as

a bargaining chip, and what about the billions and billions spent by Hamas to dig tunnels and arm themselves 

 hoping to win a war with israel (yeah right) while this money could have been spent to better the life

of the Palestinians...