My Last Electric Bill, Ever!

[Bandersnatch]

1 minute ago, Srikcir said:

Curious - would you use solar thermal heating too or just use solar electric for individual electric hot water units?

 

I had solar thermal since before I installed solar. It is a very efficient way to heat water and protects you from very high energy demand spikes.

 

A 6kW water heater draws nearly as much power as my EV (7kW)

 

 

[SAFETY FIRST]

21 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

I had solar thermal

 

Very popular in Australia. 👍

 

Every house I owned had one. 

 

Edited February 11 by SAFETY FIRST

[Srikcir]

18 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

A 6kW water heater draws nearly as much power as my EV (7kW)

Looking at the photo showing the roof down drain piping - are you recycling the rain water, ie., to a water reservoir tank to provide domestic water pressure or garden use?

[Bandersnatch]

7 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

Looking at the photo showing the roof down drain piping - are you recycling the rain water, ie., to a water reservoir tank to provide domestic water pressure or garden use?

 

I have a rainwater harvesting system that provides drinking water and household water and 2 filter systems to provide the different qualities of water. All Grey and Black water is processed and returned to the garden

 

 

 

Thanks to Ruben from http://www.h2o.in.th/

 

 

 

 

 

[KhunLA]

15 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

I have a rainwater harvesting system that provides drinking water and household water and 2 filter systems to provide the different qualities of water. All Grey and Black water is processed and returned to the garden

 

 

 

Thanks to Ruben from http://www.h2o.in.th/

That's a few more tanks than we have now  I think 10 maybe, but only 1k & 2k L tanks.  Previous house had a bit more storage, maybe twelve 2k L tanks, but still pales to your capacity.

 

Actually needed, since village water was really inconsistent at Udon Thani.  Thankfully not an issue now.  Just prepping for the apocalypse 

[superal]

19 hours ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

I have documented my experiences with PEA over the years on this forum. 

 

I have been accused of spinning my meter backwards (to the exact same reading every month)

Each time I asked for a digital solar meter that cannot be turned back.

 

I have been accused of breaking their meters with my big bad off-grid solar system.

 

I have had about 20 meetings with PEA Surin at their main office over the years.

 

I have had my solar system inspected 4 times including by the Solar Team from PEA Korat, who tried to explain to the local office that my system is off-grid and physically cannot send power out to the grid.

 

Over the years staff change. Every time I get a new meter reader, I get a new meter.

A very interesting read and many thanks for that . However as a layman much of the technical side flies over my head . 

Couple of points . Have you read about the vertical solar panels ? One YouTube video stated that they can be up to 7 times more efficient  .

I have a commercial kitchen which gets very hot . A stand alone off grid system would be practical as the kitchen is used mainly during the hot hours . Consideration in keeping the solar installation to a minimum cost , is it possible to use alternating current air con units , thus an inverter would not be needed ? Kitchen size about  20 x 4 x 3 meters . L x W x H

[Bandersnatch]

52 minutes ago, superal said:

Have you read about the vertical solar panels ? One YouTube video stated that they can be up to 7 times more efficient 

 

In Europe an East West orientation corresponds with peak demand and low solar supply on the grid. Bi-Facial solar panels make up for low production in the middle of the day with effectively being 2 panels. There are some suggestion that they are cooler and so are more efficient, but 700% more efficient I’m not sure about that.

 

A couple of years ago I made a video on which direction should your solar panels face.

 

 

 

59 minutes ago, superal said:

is it possible to use alternating current air con units , thus an inverter would not be needed ?

 

Normal air-cons are AC,  I think you meant DC. I briefly investigated them during my build. They are very much more expensive than conventional air-cons as they are a bit of a niche product. If the sun goes in the power will drop, so it is recommended to pair them with batteries. It’s now getting very expensive. 

 

A 5kW inverter will only cost you ฿25k so you’re not saving much.

 

1 hour ago, superal said:

Kitchen size about  20 x 4 x 3 meters . L x W x H

 

So equivalent to 5 conventional 4mx4m rooms with all the added heat from the kitchen and I am guessing not much insulation or a good air seal? 

 

Wouldn’t want to guess what your BTU requirement would be but it’s going to a lot

[MJCM]

Good one @Bandersnatch

 

We will also be going in the future off-grid, but that said, we will keep the PEA meter just as a backup.

 

I understand your backup is now the V2L (Vehicle to Load) but in eventualities it helps to also be able to switch to PEA and for 30 THB +/- per month, (which it costs to keep the PEA meter (standard service charge)), it's IMHO worth it.

[superal]

2 hours ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

In Europe an East West orientation corresponds with peak demand and low solar supply on the grid. Bi-Facial solar panels make up for low production in the middle of the day with effectively being 2 panels. There are some suggestion that they are cooler and so are more efficient, but 700% more efficient I’m not sure about that.

 

A couple of years ago I made a video on which direction should your solar panels face.

 

 

 

 

Normal air-cons are AC,  I think you meant DC. I briefly investigated them during my build. They are very much more expensive than conventional air-cons as they are a bit of a niche product. If the sun goes in the power will drop, so it is recommended to pair them with batteries. It’s now getting very expensive. 

 

A 5kW inverter will only cost you ฿25k so you’re not saving much.

 

 

So equivalent to 5 conventional 4mx4m rooms with all the added heat from the kitchen and I am guessing not much insulation or a good air seal? 

 

Wouldn’t want to guess what your BTU requirement would be but it’s going to a lot

Yes , glad you picked that up , dc and not ac . As regards the kitchen roof , I am thinking of adding  another layer of insulated bluescope zinc panels . That should help in not only the heat but also as a sound barrier when we have the torrential rain . My aim would be to reduce the temperature to about 30 c . Would that be feasible in reducing the amount of panels ?  Currently 38 c + in the hot months .  I will forget about ac air con units .

Thanks for your opinion .

[Rampant Rabbit]

On 2/10/2024 at 7:56 AM, Bandersnatch said:

 

My EV is a BYD Seal AWD Performance and cost ฿1.6m. There are cheaper EVs with Vehicle to Load (V2L) 

 

 

I have 2 EVs and an electric Motorbike all of which are charged at home from my solar system. My new EV has 580km of range. 

 

As I said in the video, that the car has the equivalent of 6 Tesla PowerWalls of backup power in addition to my home batteries. Remember I am using the EV as a backup. It’s not the main source of power. The car has 82.5kWh of battery storage (think 82.5 units from PEA)

 

The Car has an 8yr 70% warranty on the battery and as they are LFP batteries that have a very long life.

 

We run 2 aircons at night. 

 

 

I don’t think that the government should be helping to keep Diesel prices artificially low as pollution from Diesel trucks is adding to Thailand air pollution. 

 

 

let  me  know the depreciation in 3-4-5years  time on those as i suspect its  going to be high, total  cost of solar  install total  cost of  batteries, impractical for most.

[Rampant Rabbit]

5 hours ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

I have a rainwater harvesting system that provides drinking water and household water and 2 filter systems to provide the different qualities of water. All Grey and Black water is processed and returned to the garden

 

 

 

Thanks to Ruben from http://www.h2o.in.th/

 

 

 

 

 

Having had  rats inside a  building here gnawing at pipework I  hope u have some sort of protection for that lot

[Bandersnatch]

16 minutes ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

Having had  rats inside a  building here gnawing at pipework I  hope u have some sort of protection for that lot

 

6 years on no rats - the snakes eat them all

[KhunLA]

14 minutes ago, superal said:

Yes , glad you picked that up , dc and not ac . As regards the kitchen roof , I am thinking of adding  another layer of insulated bluescope zinc panels . .. My aim would be to reduce the temperature to about 30 c .   I will forget about ac air con units .

Thanks for your opinion .

Newer inverter ACs use very little electric, and quite impressive.   We used BlueScope, this and previous house.  This house, haven't checked, but doesn't hit 30°C much, if at all.  Maybe Mar/Apr/May, but nothing I notice when returning from out & about.

 

Have thickest insulated BlueScope roof, think they offer 3 types.  Then have R-37/38 foil ceiling insolation on top the drywall ceiling.  Interior ceiling is quite cool and doesn't radiate any heat.  Same with most of the exterior walls, though most is quite shaded with extended roofing.

 

Only hot spot, is the closet in master bedroom, which acts as a heat barrier to the bedroom itself.   Exterior closet wall is about the only one that gets full western sun exposure.  Eastern bedroom wall (partial) is the only other wall getting full sunrise exposure.  N wall irrelevant, S wall is the storage & wash room/laundry, so actually separate from main living area, and again, acts as a heat barrier.

 

Position of house, shading, insulated block & roofing/ceiling material will keep the house pretty cool.   Ours has no shade, except for the solar panel on the roof.  And most of the year, we really don't need to run the ACs, though we do, since they have air purifiers and knock the humidity down.

[Bandersnatch]

26 minutes ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

total  cost of solar  install total  cost of  batteries, impractical for most.

 

Are you going to provide any evidence to support that statement? 

 

You clearly don’t have solar and yet you are posting in the Alternative/Renewable Energy Forum where many of us here have had solar for years.

 

 

 

 

[Crossy]

1 hour ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

... total  cost of solar  install total  cost of  batteries, impractical for most.

 

You really don't need a massive investment to enable noticeable savings.

 

Our local coffee shed seem to find it practical.

 

 

I just re-ran my ROI calculator which takes account of the varying (up mostly) cost of electricity and the break-even point is 3.28 years. We will be generating free power later this year 😄

 

[JeffersLos]

I'd like ones for the daytime. 

 

Maybe connected to an air conditioner. So the AC can run all day from sunrise to sunset with no effect on the electrical bill. No battery. A simple panel that powers an air conditioner as long as it is sunny.

 

Is that possible yet? 

[Crossy]

7 minutes ago, JeffersLos said:

I'd like ones for the daytime. 

 

Maybe connected to an air conditioner. So the AC can run all day from sunrise to sunset with no effect on the electrical bill. No battery. A simple panel that powers an air conditioner as long as it is sunny.

 

Is that possible yet? 

 

It's been possible for some years, and it's the cheapest option.

 

Grid-tie inverter and enough panels to run your A/C during the generating hours, with no batteries you will waste generation during the sunniest part of the day (unless your spin a conventional disc meter backwards - naughty).

 

[JeffersLos]

2 minutes ago, Crossy said:

It's been possible for some years, and it's the cheapest option.

 

Approx how much is a solar panel and setup to power one 18000 BTU air conditioner as long as the sun is shining on it?

[Crossy]

Very, very finger in the air!

 

18,000 BTU will swallow 1,800W when running.

 

You need to over-panel a bit so you are generating in the morning / evening, let's say 3kW of panels and a 3kW grid-tie inverter.

 

10 x 340W panels at 3k Baht each. 30k Baht

3kW grid-tie mid-price inverter 12,500 Baht (cheaper units are available). 

 

Say 43k + something for bit's n bobs, say 50k all in.

 

Do you have a conventional spinning disc or electronic meter??

That system will over-generate at mid-day, if you have spinning disc, it will go backwards an electronic meter would ignore it.

 

If you are on an electronic meter, I would now recommend going hybrid with a small energy storage system (battery), more expensive I'm afraid.

 

Start a separate thread if the numbers are not too frightening.

[Rampant Rabbit]

3 hours ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

Are you going to provide any evidence to support that statement? 

 

You clearly don’t have solar and yet you are posting in the Alternative/Renewable Energy Forum where many of us here have had solar for years.

 

 

 

 

does  your average somchai in  the  village  have a 1.6m baht car and 30 panels  on their  roof with battery back up? seems  most Thai live hand to mouth and as pointed  out  above 1 -18000 btu aircon is  gonna  eat up 30k in solar  panels alone without batteries..however knock yerself  out telling me how almost everyone can now  afford it when most cant.  Its  not about me having solar  its  about most Thais  having it. I could  have solar  till it shines out my  arse but I dont want any maintenance hassles just another load of stuff  to break at some point, Whats  easy is mains power.

Edited February 11 by Rampant Rabbit

[Rampant Rabbit]

3 hours ago, Bandersnatch said:

You clearly don’t have solar and yet you are posting in the Alternative/Renewable Energy Forum where many of us here have had solar for years.

 

Is  that a requirement  before  posting then, Ok  leave you to it like many other  taboo  subjects  such as  global warming, transgenders, racism,  EV's solar   is now in that category it seems. U may delete  all  my posts.

[HighPriority]

34 minutes ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

Is  that a requirement  before  posting then, Ok  leave you to it like many other  taboo  subjects  such as  global warming, transgenders, racism,  EV's solar   is now in that category it seems. U may delete  all  my posts.

The point is, respectfully… you have a very limited understanding of the systems, costings and capabilities yet you are telling people who are highly experienced with these systems that they are wrong.

[Rampant Rabbit]

1 hour ago, HighPriority said:

The point is, respectfully… you have a very limited understanding of the systems, costings and capabilities yet you are telling people who are highly experienced with these systems that they are wrong.

Nowhere have I said any of that is  wrong,  so you  have no idea of my understandings, what I  have said is for  most people in Thailand its impractical, Jesus they havent got enough money to get through today yet here  someone posts about a  1.6million baht car   running their  house as  almost normal with a  roof  with more solar  panels  than the size of most peoples  houses and a water  collection system thats enormous...........its simply not  practical or even remotely affordable for most  Thais.

Thats guys house is an exception, a  massive exception and at a  large financial cost out of reach of most Thais.

 

[Bandersnatch]

24 minutes ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

most people in Thailand its impractical, Jesus they havent got enough money to get through today

I have 2 Thai friends who have solar businesses and sell almost exclusively to Thais and they are very busy. 
 

Haven’t you seen solar panels for sale everywhere? Or maybe you don’t get out much. 

 

This is the solar group my wife is in and it has 180,000 members 

 

The comment you made about my car was also incorrect. The BYD Seal was the second best selling EV last month in Thailand, they sold over 3,000

 

[KhunLA]

49 minutes ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

Nowhere have I said any of that is  wrong,  so you  have no idea of my understandings, what I  have said is for  most people in Thailand its impractical, Jesus they havent got enough money to get through today yet here  someone posts about a  1.6million baht car   running their  house as  almost normal with a  roof  with more solar  panels  than the size of most peoples  houses and a water  collection system thats enormous...........its simply not  practical or even remotely affordable for most  Thais.

Thats guys house is an exception, a  massive exception and at a  large financial cost out of reach of most Thais.

Thais have a lot more baht than farangs here/TH.  Open your eyes, as they are the ones driving the expensive cars and living in large houses, not renting condo/hotel rooms, and riding the baht buses.

 

Are solar systems & EVs for or affordable to the masses ... worldwide ... getting there.   BUT, for most folks, worldwide, living month to month ... NO.  You can never fix stupid.

 

Your ignorance and bias shines ... troll on.

 

HAVE A NICE DAY

[Startmeup]

80% capacity disclaimer after x amount of cycles reminds me of my iPhone. When I replaced my battery recently it said I still had 90% capacity. I don't care what it says I know what once lasted me a day and a half for 0-12 months now went dead after 3/4 of a day after 18-24 months of use. 

I know and Apple knows too there is no way that battery had 90% capacity or even 80% capacity but they give warranties to say they will replace it if it goes below 80%. Instead of me getting a battery on warranty I had to fork out and pay it myself. 

 

A self sustaining house is something that appeals to me alot but I think it's only viable for people who are very hands on or who have plenty of coin and/or are willing to experiment. Im curious How do these EV's manage from a heat POV especially when charging in a garage or outdoors? Does the charging cycle stop often with the BMS due to overheating or Is it recommended you have it charging in a garage with air con?

I note some forgivings in the payback calculations which would make it alot more complicated but no less relevant.

I haven't seen the inclusion of the margin of costs of paying for an EV compared to a comparable ICE vehicle. 

In the real world people may want an SUV but most people don't care about 0-60 in Thailand. 

How much is a Ranger/Hilux/BMW 3 Series/Merc C class vs a name the BYD/Hyundai/Tesla EV equivalent. 

Also the depreciation costs of said vehicles, Ive read nothing but higher depreciation reports of EVs and often struggling to sell them at all. 

 

I think a breakthrough in battery technology is needed to make an investment like this undeniable. Even then it's only suitable for a small amount of people in Thailand as most people live in Condos

 

Edited February 11 by Startmeup

[Rampant Rabbit]

56 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Thais have a lot more baht than farangs here/TH.  Open your eyes, as they are the ones driving the expensive cars and living in large houses, not renting condo/hotel rooms, and riding the baht buses.

 

Are solar systems & EVs for or affordable to the masses ... worldwide ... getting there.   BUT, for most folks, worldwide, living month to month ... NO.  You can never fix stupid.

 

Your ignorance and bias shines ... troll on.

 

HAVE A NICE DAY

youre  talking  <deleted>e , most  Thais  dont  have enough money until tomorrow.,

[Rampant Rabbit]

1 hour ago, Bandersnatch said:

I have 2 Thai friends who have solar businesses and sell almost exclusively to Thais and they are very busy. 
 

Haven’t you seen solar panels for sale everywhere? Or maybe you don’t get out much. 

 

This is the solar group my wife is in and it has 180,000 members 

 

The comment you made about my car was also incorrect. The BYD Seal was the second best selling EV last month in Thailand, they sold over 3,000

 

this  response is  so  full of  crap, i mean i have 2  friends  who have  solar  businesses  selling mostly to Thais...............WOW big surprise in Thailand who would have thunk that, and what the hell is my  commen t about  byd  seal, I asked whats its depreciation  would be, honestly this threads  so  full of <deleted>  it  defies  belief, stating stuff  I havent even said and  another gasp wow 180k members in a population of 70  million when they say evangelists  now  I know what they mean, Ill leave you to your  little  clique  club and of course call away at TROLL its the go to response KHUN La

[Beardog]

12 hours ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

In Europe an East West orientation corresponds with peak demand and low solar supply on the grid. Bi-Facial solar panels make up for low production in the middle of the day with effectively being 2 panels. There are some suggestion that they are cooler and so are more efficient, but 700% more efficient I’m not sure about that.

 

A couple of years ago I made a video on which direction should your solar panels face.

 

 

 

 

Normal air-cons are AC,  I think you meant DC. I briefly investigated them during my build. They are very much more expensive than conventional air-cons as they are a bit of a niche product. If the sun goes in the power will drop, so it is recommended to pair them with batteries. It’s now getting very expensive. 

 

A 5kW inverter will only cost you ฿25k so you’re not saving much.

 

 

So equivalent to 5 conventional 4mx4m rooms with all the added heat from the kitchen and I am guessing not much insulation or a good air seal? 

 

Wouldn’t want to guess what your BTU requirement would be but it’s going to a lot

That is a pretty impressive spread you have Bander! I enjoyed your video since I know little but may go solar when we build our next house. I have 1 question do you need anything special in the system to run a computer & a large monitor?

[KhunLA]

17 minutes ago, Beardog said:

That is a pretty impressive spread you have Bander! I enjoyed your video since I know little but may go solar when we build our next house. I have 1 question do you need anything special in the system to run a computer & a large monitor?

No