Can condo management turn off water? Claim overdue fees out of nowhere from 5+ years ago?

[wisemonkey]

I've always had issues with the current management at my condo, Ive seen blatant over-spending, for example a waterproofing paint job of a rooftop being charged 245k baht, however when I got an independent quote thinking that was too high, was quoted 80k baht, along with some outright theft in my opinion, little examples that happen monthly that add up, like the sauna heater being replaced, charged 25k for the heater itself not including the installation, looked up the exact heater on lazada and its 5k new. Anyway these small examples are issues that are happening on a monthly basis. Either complete incompetency in financial management or worse.

 

Anyway without getting too bogged down with the details its made me get into arguements with the management. The latest of which now is out of nowhere being charged for fees apparently owed in 2017. To be clear, I always paid my fees, but the baffling thing here is that its never been mentioned that I owe 2017 fees before this year,  I have invoices for everything owed every year for the last 6 years, and not in one of the past 6 years has there been a mention of outstanding fees owed from 2017. I have asked them where this fee has come from, with no response. I have my suspicion that perhaps they are adding this fee out of nowhere to claim I owe money to stop me voting at the AGM.

 

I have said to them that I will not be paying the new sinking fee charged (at the last AGM a sinking fee charge was approved) until this issue of being charged out of nowhere for a 7 year old fee is resolved. My concern is here, can they turn off water or electricity to the condo? Ive heard that they can do this, but then also heard that its illegal now, does anyone know the current legal stance with this? Im in Chiang Mai. Im getting quite good rent for my condo, good tenant, my concern would be that they start acting like cowboys and turn off access to water as Ive heard happens here in Thailand. Can they do this? If so and the tennant leaves due to this, would they be liable for the rent I lose if its taken to court and found they were in the wrong?

 

I have also heard that management can not ask for fees over 5 years old, I use to be on the committee of another building and was told this is the case, anyone know if this is true?

[roo860]

https://www.samuiforsale.com/law-texts/new-thailand-condominium-act-2008.html

 

This any good to you?

[OneMoreFarang]

I don't think they are allowed to cut off your water of electricity. But the way you describe them that is no reason for them not to do it.

 

It seems you and probably other co-owners have a big problem to solve, remove that management?

Did you talk with the other owners?

Did you talk with the committee?

If something happened like the total overcharging, I would bring this up at the general meeting with everybody watching. This is what they charged, and this is what it cost (print it out). And then look what happens.

 

We had a bad management in our condominium. This was only possible because some owners broke the rules, and the management was quiet. "Good" owners would agree with you to get rid of a corrupt management. 

 

[mark5335]

At my condo they charge penalty rates to delinquent owners after the Common Area Fees are more than 30 days past due, and they then cut off the water after the fees are more than 6 months overdue. It's written in our Condo's By-Laws.

 

With regard to electricity, that's handled by the MEA, not the Condo Juristic Office.

[wisemonkey]

Just now, OneMoreFarang said:

I don't think they are allowed to cut off your water of electricity. But the way you describe them that is no reason for them not to do it.

 

It seems you and probably other co-owners have a big problem to solve, remove that management?

Did you talk with the other owners?

Did you talk with the committee?

If something happened like the total overcharging, I would bring this up at the general meeting with everybody watching. This is what they charged, and this is what it cost (print it out). And then look what happens.

 

We had a bad management in our condominium. This was only possible because some owners broke the rules, and the management was quiet. "Good" owners would agree with you to get rid of a corrupt management. 

 

 

There are a few of us that tried, its a long story, big drama, but long story short they got word that we were going to try to vote them out, we made sure we had enough proxies and percentages ,etc to vote them out and replace them, even had an alternative management ready to present, we thought we were going to get it done easily but then on the day of the AGM, they came up with reasons that we could not vote, such as being on the committee, etc, and now Im thinking this latest charge is in that same vein. 

[FritsSikkink]

"Im getting quite good rent for my condo, good tenant, my concern would be that they start acting like cowboys and turn off access to water as Ive heard happens here in Thailand. Can they do this? If so and the tennant leaves due to this, would they be liable for the rent I lose if its taken to court and found they were in the wrong?"

 

If going to court think about the paperwork involved with renting out your condo, like do you pay tax on the income?

[Henryford]

Yes they can cut off water, we do it all the time to late payers. Have you no receipts for your payments over the past few years. The fees should be a fixed amount, if you paid you should have a receipt or proof of payment. Are they charging you more than the standard rate per sqm x your condo's sqm?

Edited February 16 by Henryford

[wisemonkey]

2 minutes ago, Henryford said:

Yes they can cut off water, we do it all the time to late payers. Have you no receipts for your payments over the past few years. The fees should be a fixed amount, if you paid you should have a receipt. Are they charging you more than the standard rate per sqm x your condo's sqm?

 

I have receipts for the last few years, but going back 5+ might start getting hard to find, I have kept everything electronic so should be easy enough to prove, but the issue is they have never claimed I owed anything from 2017 until now, 7 years later, just doesnt make sense. When you do it to late payers do you need to warn them, if they dispute the fees and you turned off the water when they claimed they paid, wouldnt you then be liable for any financial consequences? 

[Dante99]

Fix this problem and they will hit you with another one.  They do not like your attitude and you'll be under fire until that changes.

[wisemonkey]

8 minutes ago, Dante99 said:

Fix this problem and they will hit you with another one.  They do not like your attitude and you'll be under fire until that changes.

 

Exactly. Thats why I am thinking I want to go to court and change management. The only issue is I dont want to hurt the building, and in the past another owner successfully took this management to court and they lost (management lost), but they funded the court case from the condos accounts, think they got this approved through committee voting.  

Edited February 16 by wisemonkey

[Dogbarker]

4 hours ago, mark5335 said:

At my condo they charge penalty rates to delinquent owners after the Common Area Fees are more than 30 days past due, and they then cut off the water after the fees are more than 6 months overdue. It's written in our Condo's By-Laws.

 

With regard to electricity, that's handled by the MEA, not the Condo Juristic Office.

 In Chiang Mai it is PEA who supply the electricity. If you do not pay them they can disconnect. HOWEVER you need to check if you have meter for PEA or the condo . If the condo and unpaid they can turn the electricity off. I previously owned 3 units in CM and had the meters changed to PEA as it was cheaper per unit  than what the condo charged. Hope that helps .

[CecilM]

Our condo manager revoked elevator key fob access to non-paying owners. They had to walk up 8 floors. They didn't sue/fight the manager's actions... read between the lines what's legal and what a lawsuit might achieve. 

[jippytum]

It is illegal now to stop the utilities to a condo in a financial dispute. The management must sue via the civil small claims court.  You can attend the AGM but can not vote if condo fees are outstanding. It seems you are not on speaking terms with the management or committe which makes a solution without legal action more difficult. 

[wisemonkey]

10 minutes ago, jippytum said:

It is illegal now to stop the utilities to a condo in a financial dispute. The management must sue via the civil small claims court.  You can attend the AGM but can not vote if condo fees are outstanding. It seems you are not on speaking terms with the management or committe which makes a solution without legal action more difficult. 

 

I am on speaking terms with both management and committee, very good terms with committee, with the management we just do not agree, but definitely on speaking terms.

 

Do you have any sources for utilities switching off to be illegal? This would be very helpful. My understanding is that it it up to each condo and the by laws. 

[bbi1]

4 hours ago, wisemonkey said:

I've always had issues with the current management at my condo, Ive seen blatant over-spending, for example a waterproofing paint job of a rooftop being charged 245k baht, however when I got an independent quote thinking that was too high, was quoted 80k baht, along with some outright theft in my opinion, little examples that happen monthly that add up, like the sauna heater being replaced, charged 25k for the heater itself not including the installation, looked up the exact heater on lazada and its 5k new. Anyway these small examples are issues that are happening on a monthly basis. Either complete incompetency in financial management or worse.

 

Anyway without getting too bogged down with the details its made me get into arguements with the management. The latest of which now is out of nowhere being charged for fees apparently owed in 2017. To be clear, I always paid my fees, but the baffling thing here is that its never been mentioned that I owe 2017 fees before this year,  I have invoices for everything owed every year for the last 6 years, and not in one of the past 6 years has there been a mention of outstanding fees owed from 2017. I have asked them where this fee has come from, with no response. I have my suspicion that perhaps they are adding this fee out of nowhere to claim I owe money to stop me voting at the AGM.

 

I have said to them that I will not be paying the new sinking fee charged (at the last AGM a sinking fee charge was approved) until this issue of being charged out of nowhere for a 7 year old fee is resolved. My concern is here, can they turn off water or electricity to the condo? Ive heard that they can do this, but then also heard that its illegal now, does anyone know the current legal stance with this? Im in Chiang Mai. Im getting quite good rent for my condo, good tenant, my concern would be that they start acting like cowboys and turn off access to water as Ive heard happens here in Thailand. Can they do this? If so and the tennant leaves due to this, would they be liable for the rent I lose if its taken to court and found they were in the wrong?

 

I have also heard that management can not ask for fees over 5 years old, I use to be on the committee of another building and was told this is the case, anyone know if this is true?

Another reason why you don't ever buy a property in Thailand. Rent and just move to a new place if there are issues. Own properties overseas but never ever own anything in Thailand.

Edited February 16 by bbi1

[wisemonkey]

19 minutes ago, CecilM said:

Our condo manager revoked elevator key fob access to non-paying owners. They had to walk up 8 floors. They didn't sue/fight the manager's actions... read between the lines what's legal and what a lawsuit might achieve. 

 

Its a different situation I think, if they actually knew they didnt pay the fees and admit to it. In this case, I have paid all my fees, the management is requesting a fee from 7 years ago in an error (provable). So in the case it did go to court I think they would be liable for any financial hit I took due to them turning off any utilities. 

[bbi1]

22 minutes ago, CecilM said:

Our condo manager revoked elevator key fob access to non-paying owners. They had to walk up 8 floors. They didn't sue/fight the manager's actions... read between the lines what's legal and what a lawsuit might achieve. 

That's some good exercise. How many kgs did they end up losing from all that exercise?

[wisemonkey]

4 minutes ago, bbi1 said:

Another reason why you don't ever buy a property in Thailand. Rent and just move to a new place if there are issues. Own properties overseas but never ever own anything in Thailand.

Would probably agree with you at this point with me, although Im sure there are others with good management that had the opposite experience to me, maybe few and far between. If I was going to do it again I would just do the company and buy land and house not have to deal with management, or just buy in my sons name. 

[ChaiyaTH]

7 minutes ago, wisemonkey said:

Would probably agree with you at this point with me, although Im sure there are others with good management that had the opposite experience to me, maybe few and far between. If I was going to do it again I would just do the company and buy land and house not have to deal with management, or just buy in my sons name. 

That is not his point. To have the issue you have now is just one of the dozens that can pop up, you could also get a new neighbor from hell next door etc etc.

 

I personally not understand people buying houses or condo's here, since 3-5 years already. Not care about the arguments of that they made a bit of profit, bitcoin did the same, Nvidia stocks too, so did tons of other things. Gas futures also did 4X when it was -29 celsius in Teaxas.

 

Even with a silly safe fund you would likely get more net returns, stable, than getting from rent here. 

Edited February 16 by ChaiyaTH

[wisemonkey]

Just now, ChaiyaTH said:

That is not his point. To have the issue you have now is just one of the dozens that can pop up, you could also get a new neighbor from hell next door etc etc.

 

Well that is not Thailand specific, that could happen anywhere in the world, so I guess by that logic you dont own land anywhere?!

[ChaiyaTH]

2 minutes ago, wisemonkey said:

 

Well that is not Thailand specific, that could happen anywhere in the world, so I guess by that logic you dont own land anywhere?!

It is about the laws, rules and enforcement of those laws/rules or better said, the lack of it. That makes it different, but clearly you are not clever enough to even understand the point made, so a waste of time to even explain more.

Edited February 16 by ChaiyaTH

[wisemonkey]

Just now, ChaiyaTH said:

It is about the laws, rules and enforcement of those rules. That makes it different, but clearly you are not clever enough to even understand the point made, so a waste of time to even explain more.

 

LoL. A little bit of pushback and you cant handle it. 

 

Also the examples you gave above regarding return are cherry picked examples of the best performing assets in the world, nivdia and btc, etc, so you going to compare the best performing assets in the world. LoL ok. 

 

Thailands rental returns are among the best in the world, not that you would have a clue.

[kingstonkid]

5 hours ago, wisemonkey said:

I've always had issues with the current management at my condo, Ive seen blatant over-spending, for example a waterproofing paint job of a rooftop being charged 245k baht, however when I got an independent quote thinking that was too high, was quoted 80k baht, along with some outright theft in my opinion, little examples that happen monthly that add up, like the sauna heater being replaced, charged 25k for the heater itself not including the installation, looked up the exact heater on lazada and its 5k new. Anyway these small examples are issues that are happening on a monthly basis. Either complete incompetency in financial management or worse.

 

Anyway without getting too bogged down with the details its made me get into arguements with the management. The latest of which now is out of nowhere being charged for fees apparently owed in 2017. To be clear, I always paid my fees, but the baffling thing here is that its never been mentioned that I owe 2017 fees before this year,  I have invoices for everything owed every year for the last 6 years, and not in one of the past 6 years has there been a mention of outstanding fees owed from 2017. I have asked them where this fee has come from, with no response. I have my suspicion that perhaps they are adding this fee out of nowhere to claim I owe money to stop me voting at the AGM.

 

I have said to them that I will not be paying the new sinking fee charged (at the last AGM a sinking fee charge was approved) until this issue of being charged out of nowhere for a 7 year old fee is resolved. My concern is here, can they turn off water or electricity to the condo? Ive heard that they can do this, but then also heard that its illegal now, does anyone know the current legal stance with this? Im in Chiang Mai. Im getting quite good rent for my condo, good tenant, my concern would be that they start acting like cowboys and turn off access to water as Ive heard happens here in Thailand. Can they do this? If so and the tennant leaves due to this, would they be liable for the rent I lose if its taken to court and found they were in the wrong?

 

I have also heard that management can not ask for fees over 5 years old, I use to be on the committee of another building and was told this is the case, anyone know if this is true?

Talk to a lawyer.  Make sure legal right also a lawyer might be able to resolve this easier.

 

Let's face it you and management have too much history 

[wisemonkey]

1 minute ago, kingstonkid said:

Talk to a lawyer.  Make sure legal right also a lawyer might be able to resolve this easier.

 

Let's face it you and management have too much history 

 

Think you are on the money there mate. Didnt want to have to come to it, but might be the best bet.

[tomazbodner]

At my condo they would cut off the water if any fees (water or maintenance) are over 6 months overdue and charge a fee to reconnect them. I see warnings in lifts and condo app all the time so I am sure there are people who are overdue. Some tenants also caught in that - asking about why there is no water and then finding out unit owners didn't pay bills for many months. Hence I know they actually do follow through on threats.

 

Electricity is, however, paid directly to MEA and as such condo management has nothing to do with it, nor can they touch it.

[BigStar]

1 hour ago, ChaiyaTH said:

I personally not understand people buying houses or condo's here, since 3-5 years already.

 

Our renters here never do, and always jump into any thread mentioning "condo" to reassure themselves. But I understood my first year here and, after a few years of due diligence, have verified my understanding yearly since then for 22 years. I guess you get the point of owning, and can afford it, or you don't.

 

Relax, bask in your superior wisdom with grace and equanimity. Owners already know everything you've got to say. Ownership has responsibilities, yes. Can't handle them, don't own. Except for the occasional issue here whinged from one owner out of thousands, they just gon' continue enjoying living in their properties. Suck it up.

 

1 hour ago, ChaiyaTH said:

bitcoin did the same, Nvidia stocks too, so did tons of other things. Gas futures also did 4X when it was -29 celsius in Teaxas.

 

If you had the share certificates, you could tape them together and make yourself a homeless shelter, no? And you could live rent-free, too.

 

1 hour ago, ChaiyaTH said:

It is about the laws, rules and enforcement of those laws/rules or better said, the lack of it.

 

Yawn. Complaints about condo rules and HOAs are legion in the USA. Most owners live contentedly in their properties because the laws and rules are enforced, as they are in my building. Nobody likes EVERY rule. We don't like the management, we change it by vote at the Annual Meeting. We vote on fees, the auditors, and a lot of other stuff. 

 

Typical assertion about Thai rules and laws, such as this one here recently: laws being upheld in Thailand is a joke. So then, walk out from a 7/11 with goods unpaid; better, rob a gold shop. Walk the walk, don't just talk the talk.

 

Edited February 16 by BigStar

[BigStar]

1 hour ago, wisemonkey said:

 

Think you are on the money there mate. Didnt want to have to come to it, but might be the best bet.

 

It's not. Unless you have receipts for the fees paid in 2017, you'll lose, after a lot of bother. Then you'll be out legal fees (50,000 comes to mind) AND the fees from 2017. Our condo has a rule that if you lose, you'll have to pay the condo's legal fees as well. I'd offer a settlement, maybe 50%.

 

Don't like the management, you'll have to get enough votes at the annual meeting to change it. Definitely can be done. No, Thais don't always vote with Thais. They also appreciate good management. The condo is required to hold the annual meetings; if not you do have a legal argument.

[john donson]

another point for just renting, never buying here

[wisemonkey]

7 minutes ago, BigStar said:

 

Our renters here never do, and always jump into any thread mentioning "condo" to reassure themselves. But I understood my first year here and, after a few years of due diligence, have verified my understanding yearly since then for 22 years. I guess you get the point of owning, and can afford it, or you don't.

 

Relax, bask in your superior wisdom with grace and equanimity. Owners already know everything you've got to say. Ownership has responsibilities, yes. Can't handle them, don't own. Except for the occasional issue here whinged from one owner out of thousands, they just gon' continue enjoying living in their properties. Suck it up.

 

 

If you had the share certificates, you could tape them together and make yourself a homeless shelter, no? And you could live rent-free, too.

 

 

Yawn. Complaints about condo rules and HOAs are legion in the USA. Most owners live contentedly in their properties because the laws and rules are enforced, as they are in my building. Nobody likes EVERY rule. We don't like the management, we change it by vote at the Annual Meeting. We vote on fees, the auditors, and a lot of other stuff. 

 

Typical assertion about Thai rules and laws, such as this one here recently: laws being upheld in Thailand is a joke. So then, walk out from a 7/11 with goods unpaid; better, rob a gold shop. Walk the walk, don't just talk the talk.

 

 

 Great reply, some posts on here are mindboggling, funny this guy telling about how we could of bought btc and nvidia, great when you can trade with heindsite. Yeah I would love to buy BTC at $1, Im quite sure no one here did especially not @ChaiyaTH . 

 

 

Rent yields here amongst the best in the world in Thailand, you dont get good rental yields in high cost nations like Australia and US, etc. You get it in low costs environments where people want to visit. Of course there are risks invovled. this is life though for everyone.

[wisemonkey]

3 minutes ago, BigStar said:

 

It's not. Unless you have receipts for the fees paid in 2017, you'll lose, after a lot of bother. Then you'll be out legal fees (50,000 comes to mind) AND the fees from 2017. Our condo has a rule that if you lose, you'll have to pay the condo's legal fees as well. I'd offer a settlement, maybe 50%.

 

Don't like the management, you'll have to get enough votes at the annual meeting to change it. Definitely can be done. No, Thais don't always vote with Thais. They also appreciate good management. The condo is required to hold the annual meetings; if not you do have a legal argument.

They cant legally sue for any fees over 5 years old, so they wont be able to sue for that , source check here: https://housecondolawyer.com/common-fee, its the law.