Judge orders Trump and companies to pay nearly $355 million in civil fraud trial

[frank83628]

3 hours ago, Roo Island said:

Google doesn't lie. Dodgy websites it references do.

haha, heard of the twitter files? Matt Taibbi had some interesting information on that 

[EVENKEEL]

Whatever Trump did or didn't do regarding his RE deals, I'd wager the same is done by others. 

 

How will this play out for other large RE investors in NYC? And, please don't try and argue only Trump played this game.

[sirineou]

2 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Whatever Trump did or didn't do regarding his RE deals, I'd wager the same is done by others. 

 

How will this play out for other large RE investors in NYC? And, please don't try and argue only Trump played this game.

No one does

And if they did on the scale that trump did, they should be also prosecuted. 

But these others are not making false public statements ,

Personally I am of the opinion that if I commited a crime, I would keep quiet about it.

What do you think?  

[EVENKEEL]

13 minutes ago, sirineou said:

No one does

And if they did on the scale that trump did, they should be also prosecuted. 

But these others are not making false public statements ,

Personally I am of the opinion that if I commited a crime, I would keep quiet about it.

What do you think?  

The one big reason for this mess is trump's political aspirations. To think otherwise would be extremely naive. 

 

You don't think all the mega rich RE investors are reevaluating the market in NYC. Why would they want to take a chance.

[Tug]

8 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

The one big reason for this mess is trump's political aspirations. To think otherwise would be extremely naive. 

 

You don't think all the mega rich RE investors are reevaluating the market in NYC. Why would they want to take a chance.

One of the reasons for this is trumps big stupid mouth if he dident flap his yap without engaging his brain so often he most likely would have gotten a way with it and trying to steal the presidency behind a lie dident help much either 

[Eric Loh]

36 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Whatever Trump did or didn't do regarding his RE deals, I'd wager the same is done by others. 

 

How will this play out for other large RE investors in NYC? And, please don't try and argue only Trump played this game.

Falsifying business records are commonplace and the NY DA offices have held many businesses to account for this kind of criminal behavior. Trump is not being persecuted though he want his gullible supporters to believe. 

https://www.justsecurity.org/85605/survey-of-past-new-york-felony-prosecutions-for-falsifying-business-records/

[sirineou]

12 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

The one big reason for this mess is trump's political aspirations. To think otherwise would be extremely naive.

I dont think otherwise, in fact I believe I said the same thing. 

but he opened his big mouth and now he is paying the price .

14 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

You don't think all the mega rich RE investors are reevaluating the market in NYC. Why would they want to take a chance.

Apologies but I don't know how that applies. perhaps a bit more explanation how it allys to trump's situation would help me understand. 

[Roo Island]

38 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Whatever Trump did or didn't do regarding his RE deals, I'd wager the same is done by others. 

 

How will this play out for other large RE investors in NYC? And, please don't try and argue only Trump played this game.

What he did is well documented. Thus, the huge fine. I've been in real estate for decades. It's an extremely dodgy area. And those who get caught pay the price. As should be the case.

 

Trump is well known for his dodgy real estate deals going back for decades. His scams are numerous along with his lies. Thus, the thousands of lawsuits against him, his family and his companies. All well documented except on the far right media outlets.

[sirineou]

37 minutes ago, sirineou said:

No one does

And if they did on the scale that trump did, they should be also prosecuted. 

But these others are not making false public statements ,

Personally I am of the opinion that if I commited a crime, I would keep quiet about it.

What do you think?  

I asked a pertinent question ,

" Personally I am of the opinion that if I commited a crime, I would keep quiet about it.

What do you think?  "

but no one sims to want to unswere it. Me thinks because the answer is obvious, and makes my point.

The man is a loudmouth and dug his own hole 

[Walker88]

17 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

The one big reason for this mess is trump's political aspirations. To think otherwise would be extremely naive. 

 

You don't think all the mega rich RE investors are reevaluating the market in NYC. Why would they want to take a chance.

Calling it 'extremely naive' is not an argument.

 

Al Capone wanted to be Chicago's Mayor. Was his prosecution political?

 

trump committed obvious and egregious crimes. Go ahead and find any other NYC developer who lied so boldly. You cannot. Others wouldn't even dare to call a 10,999 sf apartment 33,000 sf and put a value on it higher than any residence in the United States. Or value a property at $14 million and $161 million in the same week.

 

trump was long just the punchline in a joke in NYC, a clown whose appeal was to goobers. Maybe behind the NY prosecution is that he became too visible, so in a wild stretch one might, just might, call that political.

 

His other indictments and prosecutions are so patently obvious of criminal wrongdoing, that political is the farthest thing from it.

[Roo Island]

8 hours ago, frank83628 said:

haha, heard of the twitter files? Matt Taibbi had some interesting information on that 

Not interesting. Social media sites are the worst place to get your news.

[jerrymahoney]

Trump's civil fraud verdict appeal may hinge on 'no victims' defense

 

February 17, 20246:56 AM GMT+7Updated 4 days ago

 

<SKIP>

(AG) James, a Democrat, brought her lawsuit in 2022 under New York Executive Law 63(12), which gives her office broad powers to file civil lawsuits for "repeated" or "persistent" fraud. This law historically has been used to protect consumers, investors and small businesses from scams, price-gouging and other predatory business practices.

These cases typically involve many victims who lost large sums of money to businesses that exploited their poor financial savvy, according to legal experts.
Defendants in those cases have run the gamut, from chicken suppliers to crypto exchanges and loan sharks. A common thread is often a large group of victims who were exploited because the did not know any better, according to legal experts.  <SKIP>

 

Severe penalties in a novel case like this one could potentially be met with skepticism on appeal, legal experts said. They could also prompt appellate judges to consider whether the attorney general overstepped her authority, according to Germain.

"I think the judges are going to have to look carefully at what the powers of the attorney general are here," Germain said. "Are they so broad that any lie can put you out of business, even if nobody believed it?"

 

Engoron has been unequivocal in rejecting Trump's arguments, saying in a September ruling in the case that Trump's claim about a lack of victims was "completely irrelevant."

 

https://www.reuters.com/legal/trumps-civil-fraud-verdict-appeal-may-hinge-no-victims-defense-2024-02-16/

[ozimoron]

1 hour ago, EVENKEEL said:

Whatever Trump did or didn't do regarding his RE deals, I'd wager the same is done by others. 

 

How will this play out for other large RE investors in NYC? And, please don't try and argue only Trump played this game.

 

You're probably conflating a kid stealing candy from a store with a bank robber.

 

 

[stevenl]

47 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

Trump's civil fraud verdict appeal may hinge on 'no victims' defense

 

February 17, 20246:56 AM GMT+7Updated 4 days ago

 

<SKIP>

(AG) James, a Democrat, brought her lawsuit in 2022 under New York Executive Law 63(12), which gives her office broad powers to file civil lawsuits for "repeated" or "persistent" fraud. This law historically has been used to protect consumers, investors and small businesses from scams, price-gouging and other predatory business practices.

These cases typically involve many victims who lost large sums of money to businesses that exploited their poor financial savvy, according to legal experts.
Defendants in those cases have run the gamut, from chicken suppliers to crypto exchanges and loan sharks. A common thread is often a large group of victims who were exploited because the did not know any better, according to legal experts.  <SKIP>

 

Severe penalties in a novel case like this one could potentially be met with skepticism on appeal, legal experts said. They could also prompt appellate judges to consider whether the attorney general overstepped her authority, according to Germain.

"I think the judges are going to have to look carefully at what the powers of the attorney general are here," Germain said. "Are they so broad that any lie can put you out of business, even if nobody believed it?"

 

Engoron has been unequivocal in rejecting Trump's arguments, saying in a September ruling in the case that Trump's claim about a lack of victims was "completely irrelevant."

 

https://www.reuters.com/legal/trumps-civil-fraud-verdict-appeal-may-hinge-no-victims-defense-2024-02-16/

What appeal?

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, EVENKEEL said:

The one big reason for this mess is trump's political aspirations. To think otherwise would be extremely naive. 

 

You don't think all the mega rich RE investors are reevaluating the market in NYC. Why would they want to take a chance.

You think NY will become a ghost town of abandoned skyscrapers because of Trump's conviction?

Nature abhors a vacuum, there will be others coming forward to invest. They will simply be more circumspect than Trump was.

[ozimoron]

6 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

You think NY will become a ghost town of abandoned skyscrapers because of Trump's conviction?

Nature abhors a vacuum, there will be others coming forward to invest. They will simply be more circumspect than Trump was.

 

I'm still waiting for the trucker blockade.

[frank83628]

2 hours ago, Roo Island said:

Not interesting. Social media sites are the worst place to get your news.

 it was nothing to do with getting news from social media, it was about collusion between the intelligence agencies, DNC etc and  social media sites such as twirtter, FB, youtube etc to basically censor 1 side of the political spectrum. Guessing your goto news channels didn't cover it, it was held at Capital hill.
the fact that a google search brings up 1 sided results about it actually proves the point further

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, frank83628 said:

 it was nothing to do with getting news from social media, it was about collusion between the intelligence agencies, DNC etc and  social media sites such as twirtter, FB, youtube etc to basically censor 1 side of the political spectrum. Guessing your goto news channels didn't cover it, it was held at Capital hill.
the fact that a google search brings up 1 sided results about it actually proves the point further

 

The DNC haranging social media over BS is not collusion. It's free speech.

[Roo Island]

2 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

Trump's civil fraud verdict appeal may hinge on 'no victims' defense

 

February 17, 20246:56 AM GMT+7Updated 4 days ago

 

<SKIP>

(AG) James, a Democrat, brought her lawsuit in 2022 under New York Executive Law 63(12), which gives her office broad powers to file civil lawsuits for "repeated" or "persistent" fraud. This law historically has been used to protect consumers, investors and small businesses from scams, price-gouging and other predatory business practices.

These cases typically involve many victims who lost large sums of money to businesses that exploited their poor financial savvy, according to legal experts.
Defendants in those cases have run the gamut, from chicken suppliers to crypto exchanges and loan sharks. A common thread is often a large group of victims who were exploited because the did not know any better, according to legal experts.  <SKIP>

 

Severe penalties in a novel case like this one could potentially be met with skepticism on appeal, legal experts said. They could also prompt appellate judges to consider whether the attorney general overstepped her authority, according to Germain.

"I think the judges are going to have to look carefully at what the powers of the attorney general are here," Germain said. "Are they so broad that any lie can put you out of business, even if nobody believed it?"

 

Engoron has been unequivocal in rejecting Trump's arguments, saying in a September ruling in the case that Trump's claim about a lack of victims was "completely irrelevant."

 

https://www.reuters.com/legal/trumps-civil-fraud-verdict-appeal-may-hinge-no-victims-defense-2024-02-16/

But there are victims. Lots. Including the lenders who should have made more profit.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/16/nyregion/trump-fraud-trial-ny-law.html

 

Mr. Trump’s conduct “distorts the market,” Kevin Wallace, a lawyer for Ms. James’s office, said during closing arguments in the civil fraud trial.  “It prices out honest borrowers and can lead to more catastrophic results,” Mr. Wallace said, adding, “That’s why it’s important for the court to take the steps to protect the marketplace to prevent this from happening again.”

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

The one big reason for this mess is trump's political aspirations. To think otherwise would be extremely naive. 

 

You don't think all the mega rich RE investors are reevaluating the market in NYC. Why would they want to take a chance.

Maybe people involved in massive financial fraud shouldn't seek public office.  What do you think?

 

Real estate investors should make financial decisions based upon sound business practices, not the potential for fraud.  Without properly enforced laws all forms of investment become much riskier and often not worth the risk.

[Roo Island]

6 minutes ago, frank83628 said:

 it was nothing to do with getting news from social media, it was about collusion between the intelligence agencies, DNC etc and  social media sites such as twirtter, FB, youtube etc to basically censor 1 side of the political spectrum. Guessing your goto news channels didn't cover it, it was held at Capital hill.
the fact that a google search brings up 1 sided results about it actually proves the point further

My goto news channels covered it well. Also showing misinformation on various media outlets about this.

[frank83628]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

The DNC haranging social media over BS is not collusion. It's free speech.

free speech when it suits..... twitter was great when it was left bias, now it's got more 'free speech' you all slag it as rightwing.

[frank83628]

Just now, Roo Island said:

My goto news channels covered it well. Also showing misinformation on various media outlets about this.

but i'm sure yours are the truth tellers!!

 

Edited February 21 by frank83628

[Roo Island]

Just now, frank83628 said:

free speech when it suits..... twitter was great when it was left bias, now it's got more 'free speech' you all slag it as rightwing.

A lot of stuff on Twitter is fake news and misinformation. Same with many other social media sites.

[Roo Island]

Just now, frank83628 said:

but i'm sure yours are the truth tellers!!

 

They are

[Lacessit]

3 minutes ago, frank83628 said:

 it was nothing to do with getting news from social media, it was about collusion between the intelligence agencies, DNC etc and  social media sites such as twirtter, FB, youtube etc to basically censor 1 side of the political spectrum. Guessing your goto news channels didn't cover it, it was held at Capital hill.
the fact that a google search brings up 1 sided results about it actually proves the point further

Trump started up Truth Social to put his side of the story, after FB and Twitter banned him for various reasons. Musk bought Twitter, rebranded it as X, welcomed Trump back.

Truth Social and X are both losing money hand over fist. Musk's investment in X is valued at one-third of what he paid. Google, FB and YouTube are all profitable. What does that tell you, or is it another conspiracy to you?

[Chomper Higgot]

4 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Trump started up Truth Social to put his side of the story, after FB and Twitter banned him for various reasons. Musk bought Twitter, rebranded it as X, welcomed Trump back.

Truth Social and X are both losing money hand over fist. Musk's investment in X is valued at one-third of what he paid. Google, FB and YouTube are all profitable. What does that tell you, or is it another conspiracy to you?

And Musk used large sums of Saudi money to buy Twitter.

 

The Saudis who are so keen on ‘free flowing information’ back in their own country thought opening Twitter to feee flowing propaganda was a good idea.

 

 

[Danderman123]

9 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

Whatever Trump did or didn't do regarding his RE deals, I'd wager the same is done by others. 

 

How will this play out for other large RE investors in NYC? And, please don't try and argue only Trump played this game.

It's very common for motorists caught speeding to alert the police to others who are driving too fast.

 

Doesn't get them out of a ticket, though.

[Danderman123]

8 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

Trump's civil fraud verdict appeal may hinge on 'no victims' defense

 

February 17, 20246:56 AM GMT+7Updated 4 days ago

 

<SKIP>

(AG) James, a Democrat, brought her lawsuit in 2022 under New York Executive Law 63(12), which gives her office broad powers to file civil lawsuits for "repeated" or "persistent" fraud. This law historically has been used to protect consumers, investors and small businesses from scams, price-gouging and other predatory business practices.

These cases typically involve many victims who lost large sums of money to businesses that exploited their poor financial savvy, according to legal experts.
Defendants in those cases have run the gamut, from chicken suppliers to crypto exchanges and loan sharks. A common thread is often a large group of victims who were exploited because the did not know any better, according to legal experts.  <SKIP>

 

Severe penalties in a novel case like this one could potentially be met with skepticism on appeal, legal experts said. They could also prompt appellate judges to consider whether the attorney general overstepped her authority, according to Germain.

"I think the judges are going to have to look carefully at what the powers of the attorney general are here," Germain said. "Are they so broad that any lie can put you out of business, even if nobody believed it?"

 

Engoron has been unequivocal in rejecting Trump's arguments, saying in a September ruling in the case that Trump's claim about a lack of victims was "completely irrelevant."

 

https://www.reuters.com/legal/trumps-civil-fraud-verdict-appeal-may-hinge-no-victims-defense-2024-02-16/

An appeals court is never going to dismiss asset valuation fraud. But, the appeals court may reduce the verdict amount.

 

The question is whether Trump can get a bond within 30 days.

 

One factor that everyone ignores is that it's likely that Judge Engoron conferred with other judges during the trial.

[jerrymahoney]

18 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

One factor that everyone ignores is that it's likely that Judge Engoron conferred with other judges during the trial.

Model Code of Judicial Conduct: 
Canon 2 Rule 2.9: Ex Parte Communications

February 14, 2020

 

Comment on Rule 2.9

 

[5] A judge may consult with other judges on pending matters, but must avoid ex parte discussions of a case with judges who have previously been disqualified from hearing the matter, and with judges who have appellate jurisdiction over the matter.

 

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/professional_responsibility/publications/model_code_of_judicial_conduct/model_code_of_judicial_conduct_canon_2/rule2_9expartecommunications/commentonrule2_9/