Culture of "Value"

[SailingHome]

Let's face it. Every culture is different and we don't immediately see why people may do what they do. We try not to judge more than to say if that value is a principal we want in our own thinking or way of life or not. That said, it is always nice to understand.

Take properties that sit empty for years. In my condo unit built in the'90's where few people have a reason to live unless they work near here or family, rooms sit empty for years unsold yet for a small reduction can be sold quickly for way more than they owe the bank (easy to see the default notices on the door.) Other rooms are rentals - they sit for years because the owner has a dingy, never remodeled, old aircon, bad wiring unit but want the rental price of the many available remodeled rooms. They are quite content with is no income, pay the taxes and HOA situation. 

My own landlord wants 500 more a month. No big deal. Unlawful the way she is asking based on 2018 laws, but that is another thread. She would rather I move out. I am paying over market because the room had furnishing, I was fresh out of the hostpital and it was near my nurse. They know and I know that the 500 baht means little to me. What does matter to me is their feeling their belief they can walk in any time unannounced an almost break the door down kicking it in because they want to see me. It bothers me that they refused to file with Immigration and I had to pay 30k for a visa agency instead of 1.9k. It bothers me that I find out the lease did not comply with 2018 laws and almost all they think they can do is unlawful. 

Do they care if I move out and the room is empty? The mother is already behind in taxes and HOA. Not a concern in the world that I am already paying 1000 over market. I pay on time, I improve the room and will take all improvements with me if they force my hand - I have the chat messages pre-approving my changes and I take them with me when I leave.

Faced with their financial situation, as a Westerner, I am asking myself, "Is this a game of chicken?" If so, they will lose. See-yea! I'll be next door in the newly remodeled luxury room at the new price wanted for this room. Or, Hmmm... here's a thought. How about I have Siam Legal enforce the 2018 laws of notice of increase when a contract is expired? Alas... as I get older battles to prove a point have no meaning any more. See-ya.

I offered to buy the room since she is having difficulties paying taxes and ongoing maintenance at her old age. She likes that idea. the laughter I tried not not let out in her presence was the insistence she will not take less than 650k. Unmodeled it is worth 460k. Remodeled to incredible luxury next to me is listed at 600k. They will not come down and it has sat for 4 years. A mutual friend says she will lose the property to the government (or bank? her English is not great) soon, More is the pity. I am going to need to move anyway. The owner owes less than 200k - I had to get all of this info to do Immigration papers on her behalf. I am befuddled. Please don't say this is pride and face is it? Surely the Asian long term perspective is the real reason, but in the face of profit or none; take the money or lose the property to default... there is no long term planning.

I would like to understand though. Any facts out there, not judgments? Cheers all!

[Tropicalevo]

It is a strange concept but it is not just Thais leaving somewhere empty rather than dropping the price.

Friends rented out small one bed bungalows.

In low season, they would put the price up. 

Their argument was that they were not getting their normal income, so they had to increase prices.

They were westerners.

[Dolf]

Walk away. Don't do people any favours as they never appreciate it.

[SailingHome]

Not so easy living alone with Parkinson's and a surgery scheduled some time in the next 2 -6 weeks. I really don't care about 500 baht, I just want to follow the laws.

 

[NorthernRyland]

This is 100% true with Thai people. They don't seem to understand opportunity cost and investment. Less money today could be more money in the future if you actually do something with it.

 

The land market is especially outrageous. Every guy with a little plot of unremarkable land is convinced it's going to moon and will let it sit vacant for decades before they reduce the price to something which people can actually afford today.

 

My opinion is that it's their culture of gambling. There's always a chance some rich person is going to come along and solve all your problem by paying ridiculous amounts for property which has no potential to return on their investment. Makes no sense but you just gotta believe harder until it becomes true.

[Tropicalevo]

43 minutes ago, SailingHome said:

Not so easy living alone with Parkinson's and a surgery scheduled some time in the next 2 -6 weeks. I really don't care about 500 baht, I just want to follow the laws.

 

Good luck with the surgery.

I am with you on the rest.

[SailingHome]

6 minutes ago, Tropicalevo said:

Good luck with the surgery.

I am with you on the rest.

I am not sure where my stance is at the moment, so since ur with me want to clarify where we are? 😄 

ROFL... one of the things I have learned here is, "So what?" Language: !0000% pretend to be respectful and never make it seem like accusing, even if you must lie about the situation and if they don't get the hint? So what? It costs money or physical threat to compel people to do things. This is the culture. It is for a reason that works for them as much as enforced codependency does in the Philippines. Are they happy inside? Not many. How many? I'd wager more than in the West 😉

Maybe my question should be, "How do I 'phrase a Carnegie to them?' Meaning, explain, 'Well, you can ask that of me. Let's look at how that benefits us both... so would you like me to keep paying your bills or do you have someone waiting who will pay that high of a price - because I'm here for the fine service that i enjoy, but if you can make more money without me, it is not right for me to stand in your way."  You see, that does not work here. Face is more important here. They literally, by all that they are as a Thai and their family's child,  their cultural upbringing must stand firm. Anything else is a loss of face (this is what my wife and business partner tell me...) It is not reasonable compromise of two winners and mutual benefit. I just eloquently shamed them beyond any format they have ever witnessed or felt. They KNOW all the facts in the Carnegie speech. They made a choice to GAMBLE. It is a game of chicken. "Will the falang cave for convenience and 500 bath isn't even one meal for him (and for me is 4 days.) Probably. Will I continue to care about and respect them? Hand me their coffee cup, I will refill it.

[worgeordie]

2 hours ago, SailingHome said:

the insistence she will not take less than 650k. Unmodeled it is worth 460k.

Where is this Condo ?  if in any big city it must be a <deleted>hole at that price .... how much rent are you paying now ,it must be peanuts

 

regards worgeordie

[OneMoreFarang]

You make the big mistake and think people think and use logic. They don't!

 

After you realize that fact life becomes so much easier here. You don't try to find logic anymore which you just can't find because it was never there.

 

Enjoy!

[lkn]

2 hours ago, NorthernRyland said:

My opinion is that it's their culture of gambling.

 

I think it also has to do with lousy education.

 

Many Thais cannot do basic math, they can’t do percentage calculations, they don’t know how much a meter is, they can’t read maps, they can’t research basic things themselves, and they will rely heavily on what elders tell them, even elders who are even less educated than themselves.

 

Not saying every Thai is like that, but from what I pick up (as someone who understands Thai), it’s probably a majority.

 

 

And without these skills, things become abstract to them, and their choices irrational. I have seen countless examples of this, but often the irrational behavior came from limited understanding.

 

I recently tried to help a Thai girl with her life situation, as she always had to borrow money, so first step was to get a budget done. This actually took five months! She would list her expenses, but they were wrong, the interests she thought she paid on her debt was wrong, the amount she had to pay was wrong, and there were many things she forgot. So only by going month-by-month for five months, did I actually have the full picture of her finances.

 

During the period, I did suggest various alternative ways to earn money, but she just couldn’t follow the business plan and thought it would not make her enough money, even though her current situation is factory worker with ~10,000 baht/month with no prospect of a raise, and expenses for at least 15,000 baht/month.

[RandiRona]

18 minutes ago, lkn said:

Many Thais cannot do basic math, they can’t do percentage calculations, they don’t know how much a meter is, they can’t read maps, they can’t research basic things themselves, and they will rely heavily on what elders tell them, even elders who are even less educated than themselves.

And here you are, knowing everything and know all genius and haggling for mere 500 baht and at mercy of illiterate Thais. If Irony has a face.

You sir are a legend!!!

[lkn]

7 hours ago, RandiRona said:

And here you are, knowing everything and know all genius and haggling for mere 500 baht and at mercy of illiterate Thais. If Irony has a face.

You sir are a legend!!!

I am not OP haggling over 500 baht.

 

Also, while it may have seemed like my post was just bashing Thai people, that wasn’t my point: The problem is that too many Thai people don’t have access to a proper education, not Thai culture or anything like that. Just poor people w/o proper education, you find that in many countries.

 

When you can’t do a budget of condo expenses, calculate sq. meter asking price and put multiple similar units into a spreadsheet, calculate opportunity cost if money was invested elsewhere, etc. then you can’t be expected to set a rational price.

[Skipalongcassidy]

11 hours ago, SailingHome said:

Not so easy living alone with Parkinson's and a surgery scheduled some time in the next 2 -6 weeks. I really don't care about 500 baht, I just want to follow the laws.

 

The new regulations will only be enforced for landlords who oversee five or more properties. Those who manage less than this are not obligated to this new policy, but will likely be encouraged to follow it.

[newnative]

12 hours ago, SailingHome said:

Let's face it. Every culture is different and we don't immediately see why people may do what they do. We try not to judge more than to say if that value is a principal we want in our own thinking or way of life or not. That said, it is always nice to understand.

Take properties that sit empty for years. In my condo unit built in the'90's where few people have a reason to live unless they work near here or family, rooms sit empty for years unsold yet for a small reduction can be sold quickly for way more than they owe the bank (easy to see the default notices on the door.) Other rooms are rentals - they sit for years because the owner has a dingy, never remodeled, old aircon, bad wiring unit but want the rental price of the many available remodeled rooms. They are quite content with is no income, pay the taxes and HOA situation. 

My own landlord wants 500 more a month. No big deal. Unlawful the way she is asking based on 2018 laws, but that is another thread. She would rather I move out. I am paying over market because the room had furnishing, I was fresh out of the hostpital and it was near my nurse. They know and I know that the 500 baht means little to me. What does matter to me is their feeling their belief they can walk in any time unannounced an almost break the door down kicking it in because they want to see me. It bothers me that they refused to file with Immigration and I had to pay 30k for a visa agency instead of 1.9k. It bothers me that I find out the lease did not comply with 2018 laws and almost all they think they can do is unlawful. 

Do they care if I move out and the room is empty? The mother is already behind in taxes and HOA. Not a concern in the world that I am already paying 1000 over market. I pay on time, I improve the room and will take all improvements with me if they force my hand - I have the chat messages pre-approving my changes and I take them with me when I leave.

Faced with their financial situation, as a Westerner, I am asking myself, "Is this a game of chicken?" If so, they will lose. See-yea! I'll be next door in the newly remodeled luxury room at the new price wanted for this room. Or, Hmmm... here's a thought. How about I have Siam Legal enforce the 2018 laws of notice of increase when a contract is expired? Alas... as I get older battles to prove a point have no meaning any more. See-ya.

I offered to buy the room since she is having difficulties paying taxes and ongoing maintenance at her old age. She likes that idea. the laughter I tried not not let out in her presence was the insistence she will not take less than 650k. Unmodeled it is worth 460k. Remodeled to incredible luxury next to me is listed at 600k. They will not come down and it has sat for 4 years. A mutual friend says she will lose the property to the government (or bank? her English is not great) soon, More is the pity. I am going to need to move anyway. The owner owes less than 200k - I had to get all of this info to do Immigration papers on her behalf. I am befuddled. Please don't say this is pride and face is it? Surely the Asian long term perspective is the real reason, but in the face of profit or none; take the money or lose the property to default... there is no long term planning.

I would like to understand though. Any facts out there, not judgments? Cheers all!

      Just a quick note, and one fact.  You keep referencing the 2018 Thailand rental law.   This law applies only to landlords renting 5 or more properties.  If your landlord is renting fewer, the law does not apply to her, as she is not considered to be operating a rental business and subject to the rental regulations.

[newnative]

2 minutes ago, Skipalongcassidy said:

The new regulations will only be enforced for landlords who oversee five or more properties. Those who manage less than this are not obligated to this new policy, but will likely be encouraged to follow it.

Sorry, didn't see your post before I posted.

[Skipalongcassidy]

10 minutes ago, lkn said:

I am not OP haggling over 500 baht.

 

Also, while it may have seemed like my post was just bashing Thai people, that wasn’t my point: The problem is that too many Thai people don’t have access to a proper education, not Thai culture or anything like that. Just poor people w/o proper education, you find that in many countries.

 

When you can’t do a budget of condo expenses, calculate sq. meter asking price and put multiple similar units into a spreadsheet, calculate opportunity cost if money was invested elsewhere, etc. then you can’t be expected to set a rational price.

You mean... do all those things that they do in the WEST?  Why should they if they are happy doing it their way?  The slower the west encroaches on THAILAND the better for Thailand

[gargamon]

12 hours ago, SailingHome said:

offered to buy the room since she is having difficulties paying taxes and ongoing maintenance at her old age. She likes that idea. the laughter I tried not not let out in her presence was the insistence she will not take less than 650k. Unmodeled it is worth 460k. Remodeled to incredible luxury next to me is listed at 600k.

So obvious answer: buy the 600k incredible luxury unit next door. Moving to the new unit would be simple. 

[RandiRona]

51 minutes ago, lkn said:

I am not OP haggling over 500 baht.

 

Also, while it may have seemed like my post was just bashing Thai people, that wasn’t my point: The problem is that too many Thai people don’t have access to a proper education, not Thai culture or anything like that. Just poor people w/o proper education, you find that in many countries.

 

When you can’t do a budget of condo expenses, calculate sq. meter asking price and put multiple similar units into a spreadsheet, calculate opportunity cost if money was invested elsewhere, etc. then you can’t be expected to set a rational price.

I am sorry for my mistake. Thais may not be smartest tool in the region but they are hosting us so let’s stay humble.

[lkn]

33 minutes ago, Skipalongcassidy said:

You mean... do all those things that they do in the WEST?  Why should they if they are happy doing it their way?  The slower the west encroaches on THAILAND the better for Thailand

Right, let us keep majority of the population uneducated so that we can continue to pay 350 baht/day for their labour, because they are happy doing it their way…

[KhunLA]

1 minute ago, lkn said:

Right, let us keep majority of the population uneducated so that we can continue to pay 350 baht/day for their labour, because they are happy doing it their way…

'Us' don't have nothing to do with keeping the population uneducated.  And trust me, they are far from uneducated.   Maybe not as book smart or well informed with all the useless and unimportant information that we possess, though if taking some AN members as examples of, then 'educated' is a stretch.

 

Maybe it's the west that is just overpriced, and silly labor cost/salaries, are part of that problem, though doubtful the main problem.   More like price gouging, because they can.

 

Labor unions priced themselves out of jobs, and why most manufacturing is done outside the USA.

 

Flipping burgers at $15-20 an hour now considered a skilled job.   Don't cry about your $10-15 burger.   That's an entry level (teen work experience), supplement retirement income job, not a career.

 

That the USA (my only reference) charges silly prices for some things vs TH has nothing to do with us, or being educated.

 

Should an EKG cost <$6 here/TH, but start at $525 where I used to live in USA.   Same machine & education to administer.

 

 

 

[Skipalongcassidy]

1 hour ago, lkn said:

Right, let us keep majority of the population uneducated so that we can continue to pay 350 baht/day for their labour, because they are happy doing it their way…

The age old excuse... unlike their western counterpart... Thais are not totally money motivated... it's not about being uneducated... it's about their choice to be or do other things rather than "go for the gold" all the time... 

[Lee65]

"Why do Thai people prefer to hold onto empty properties - thus getting no income - rather than lowering the price?"

 

This well-known aspect of Thai thinking remains a mystery.  The only way to get some clarification may be to speak with a Thai who has plenty of experience living in the West and good foreign language skills.

 

(I tried posing the question to ChatGPT but the evil rat-bastard thing isn't working at the moment ...)

 

[Lee65]

Incidentally, I once asked a Thai who had spent decades in the hotel business working for a large Thai hotel company why Thai hoteliers allowed rooms and properties to go unfilled rather than lowering the price.  His answer was essentially "That's thinking out of the box."  Make of that what you will ... 

[lkn]

22 minutes ago, Lee65 said:

This well-known aspect of Thai thinking remains a mystery

Cost of keeping an empty property in Thailand is close to zero, so if they do not need the money, they’d rather just “wait it out”.

 

OP seems to value the property at 460K but seller wants 650K. That is a difference of 190K, so even if it takes ten years before someone comes along willing to pay 650K, it may still be deemed worth the wait.

 

As for rental price, the thinking can be that if I let someone have it for 500 baht less/month, I will get 500 baht less for all of eternity, so better wait until someone is willing to pay the asking price. Alternatively the rental price may have been set based on “is it worth it for me” — for example someone wanted to rent my unit, and I quoted a price that would make it worth it for me, that was probably above the market rate, but anything less, and I’d rather just have the room empty and not worry about wear and tear, being a landlord, chance of non-payment or late payment, etc.

[NoDisplayName]

15 hours ago, SailingHome said:

....as a Westerner, I am asking myself, "Is this a game of chicken?" If so, they will lose. See-yea!....

 

I think the real "culture" question here is why YOU stay and serve as your landlords bathmat.

 

Don't post your woes on the intertubes hoping for "understanding" -- MOVE.

[lkn]

1 hour ago, Skipalongcassidy said:

Thais are not totally money motivated... it's not about being uneducated... it's about their choice to be or do other things rather than "go for the gold" all the time...

You need to go out more! There must be thousands if not tens of thousands of gold shops in Thailand because they literally do go for the gold, that, and photos of wads of cash on Facebook every single day (if you follow anyone from rural Thailand).

 

I have never seen people more obsessed with gold and riches, although again, this is predominantly the poor and uneducated Thais.

[Lee65]

8 minutes ago, lkn said:

Cost of keeping an empty property in Thailand is close to zero, so if they do not need the money, they’d rather just “wait it out”.

 

As OP described it, they clearly need the money ...

[PJ71]

3 hours ago, gargamon said:

So obvious answer: buy the 600k incredible luxury unit next door. Moving to the new unit would be simple. 

The luxury must be incredible at that price!

[Dolf]

3 hours ago, Lee65 said:

Incidentally, I once asked a Thai who had spent decades in the hotel business working for a large Thai hotel company why Thai hoteliers allowed rooms and properties to go unfilled rather than lowering the price.  His answer was essentially "That's thinking out of the box."  Make of that what you will ... 

Lots of Thai hotels lower prices in low season by 30 to 60%.

[SailingHome]

19 hours ago, PJ71 said:

The luxury must be incredible at that price!

To answer some questions:
* I am not haggling. I don't care about 500 baht. I am trying to make sense and learn about a culture. Also I am in need of contract so i can't be made to move out suddenly. For parkinson's the home becomes a tool with special adaptiations. You don't jsut pick up and move easily. I also have buld great friendships here. Moving to another room? Seriously, guys, we all know he next landlod will have their own issue of power tripping

* Yes the room is peanuts (a remodeled room might go for 4000), no it is not a s^ hole. It is in Chatuchak in a abnormal polygon that people have no reason to live in unless they live here or have family. I ended here becaus when I got out of the hsopital my Parkinson's assistant (yup, inexpensive) lives around the corner. I am quite content in this are. Good, working class people that take care of each other and mostly mind their own business. 

* the 600k room is larger and far more luxurious than the new condos just bult across the street iwth modern architecture rather than "Thai 90's expansion era architecture." Those meager 20 meter rooms are 2 million. Seriously? Tell me where you can have even a new condo with as nice of upgrades as the 600k room for less than 4 million.

 

* no, I can't just move to the 600k room. it is not for rent and I do not qualify for a loan - the owner is not interested in the math entertainment of financing it himself.