Israel is at War - General discussion (pt3)

[Wobblybob]

Just now, WDSmart said:

I said, then, that it was Bkk Brian who posted the video and called it "hilarious." You agreed with almost everything he then said. That was the gist of my remark. What ruins the debate (I'd call it an "argument") is when you get offended at something I've said that is a bit misdirected. Just call me out on it and be done with it. I guarantee I will never accuse you of something you said if I know you didn't. You say enough things of which I disagree that I don't have to make any up,

It is has become a habit with you of accusing others of saying something they haven't said, in my case 3 times now, please stop doing it!

[rattlesnake]

1 hour ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  Right, so Anti Semites are all Jews , and non Jews who have an agenda against Jews are not actually Anti Semites , because Anti Semites are Jews ?

   Right ee Ho 

So its Jews who are Anti Semitic ?

Have I go that correct ?

 

Incorrect. I do not intend to go off topic, but will make one statement for the sake of clarity:

 

There are plenty of antisemites in the world, including Ashkenazi Jews who consider Semites (which include Arabs and Sephardic Jews) as inferior. A contradiction worth noting as it is those same Ashkenazi Jews who are often very active in fighting "antisemitism" in the Western world.

 

On the one hand there is the signifier, i.e. what a word actually means, and then there is the signified, i.e. what it is used to refer to for various purposes. "Antisemitism" is often – though not always – used as a political means to quell or discredit criticism of Israel.

 

Another notable contradiction in the notion of racism. Israel is an institutionally racist country (just look at the way blacks are discriminated there), yet the Ashkenazi Jews who often have dual nationality (Israel and a Western country) will typically support antiracist policies in their other country, while supporting racist policies in Israel.

 

This "rules for thee but not for me" tendency, which includes the notion of antisemitism and everything it entails, is worth mentioning.

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

Yea I bet the terrorist's Hamas does. If it wasn't for Russia and China hostages could be on their way home soon and a ceasefire in place. 

 

Hamas voices ‘appreciation’ for China, Russia veto of US-backed Gaza resolution

“We express our appreciation for the position of Russia, China and Algeria who rejected the biased American resolution of aggression against our people,” the Iran-backed terror group says in a statement released last night.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hamas-voices-appreciation-for-china-russia-veto-of-us-backed-gaza-resolution/

[WDSmart]

10 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

It is has become a habit with you of accusing others of saying something they haven't said, in my case 3 times now, please stop doing it!

I'll try to not do that again. What happens, I think, is I respond to a remark on a remark I made to someone else and then don't notice that this remark is from you. Like I said, I'll try to be more careful. 

[Wobblybob]

Just now, WDSmart said:

I'll try to not do that again. What happens, I think, is I respond to a remark on a remark I made to someone else and then don't notice that this remark is from you. Like I said, I'll try to be more careful. 

Thank you.

[rattlesnake]

6 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Yea I bet the terrorist's Hamas does. If it wasn't for Russia and China hostages could be on their way home soon and a ceasefire in place. 

 

Hamas voices ‘appreciation’ for China, Russia veto of US-backed Gaza resolution

“We express our appreciation for the position of Russia, China and Algeria who rejected the biased American resolution of aggression against our people,” the Iran-backed terror group says in a statement released last night.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hamas-voices-appreciation-for-china-russia-veto-of-us-backed-gaza-resolution/

 

And the explanation for the veto:

 

Russia’s ambassador to the UN, Vassily Nebenzia, also speaking before the vote, called on members not to vote in favor of the resolution.

He said the resolution was “exceedingly politicized” and contained an effective green light for Israel to mount a military operation in Rafah, a city on the southern tip of the Gaza Strip where more than half of its 2.3 million residents have been sheltering in makeshift tents to escape the Israeli assault farther north.

“This would free the hands of Israel and it would result in all of Gaza and its entire population having to face destruction, devastation or expulsion,” Nebenzia told the meeting.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/russia-china-veto-us-resolution-at-un-calling-for-gaza-ceasefire-tied-to-hostage-deal/

[WDSmart]

9 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Yea I bet the terrorist's Hamas does. If it wasn't for Russia and China hostages could be on their way home soon and a ceasefire in place. 

 

Hamas voices ‘appreciation’ for China, Russia veto of US-backed Gaza resolution

“We express our appreciation for the position of Russia, China and Algeria who rejected the biased American resolution of aggression against our people,” the Iran-backed terror group says in a statement released last night.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hamas-voices-appreciation-for-china-russia-veto-of-us-backed-gaza-resolution/

What I'd also like to know is what the Israeli [censored] government thought of the US-backed resolution.

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, WDSmart said:

What I'd also like to know is what the Israeli [censored] government thought of the US-backed resolution.

It was release of all hostages for a 6 week ceasefire at least, of course they would want it, its a far better deal than the current talks in Qatar

[Bkk Brian]

13 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

 

And the explanation for the veto:

 

Russia’s ambassador to the UN, Vassily Nebenzia, also speaking before the vote, called on members not to vote in favor of the resolution.

He said the resolution was “exceedingly politicized” and contained an effective green light for Israel to mount a military operation in Rafah, a city on the southern tip of the Gaza Strip where more than half of its 2.3 million residents have been sheltering in makeshift tents to escape the Israeli assault farther north.

“This would free the hands of Israel and it would result in all of Gaza and its entire population having to face destruction, devastation or expulsion,” Nebenzia told the meeting.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/russia-china-veto-us-resolution-at-un-calling-for-gaza-ceasefire-tied-to-hostage-deal/

Russia said..............yea ok 

 

The US said:

 

After the vote, the US envoy, Linda Thomas-Greenfield, said Russia and China had opposed the resolution because they could not bring themselves to support the clauses in it condemning Hamas. “The second reason behind this veto is not just cynical, it's also petty,” Thomas-Greenfield said. “Russia and China simply did not want to vote for a resolution that was penned by the United States because they would rather see us fail than to see this council succeed.”

[rattlesnake]

4 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Russia said..............yea ok 

 

The US said:

 

After the vote, the US envoy, Linda Thomas-Greenfield, said Russia and China had opposed the resolution because they could not bring themselves to support the clauses in it condemning Hamas. “The second reason behind this veto is not just cynical, it's also petty,” Thomas-Greenfield said.

 

The real issue is the notion of total ceasefire, which has been too ambiguously addressed according to the countries who vetoed the resolution. Still from this article:

 

Another resolution has been drafted by elected members of the council with a direct demand for a ceasefire, but Thomas-Greenfield warned that the US would veto that text if it was presented for a vote, on the grounds that it did not support negotiations under way in Doha on a deal which would establish a ceasefire in return for Hamas freeing its hostages."

[...]

The alternative resolution was reported to be on hold on Friday morning, while council members held consultations. Sherine Tadros, the head of the New York office of Amnesty International described the US resolution as “an attempt by the US to absolve themselves of the abysmal record Biden has had so far on Gaza, and submit a resolution that is not going to end the war”.

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, WDSmart said:

Again, a video of a man who is defending his home from invading IDF and is about to be killed, or a woman who has been taken hostage is not "hilarious." They are despicable.  

Wow, did he say it was 'hilarious'? 

He mistakenly outed himself earlier as being Israeli, so kind of explains the prolific, biased posting on this thread defending the IDF, probably fought in it himself.

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, Neeranam said:

Wow, did he say it was 'hilarious'? 

He mistakenly outed himself earlier as being Israeli, so kind of explains the prolific, biased posting on this thread defending the IDF, probably fought in it himself.

Stop the lies. I am from London, have zero ties to Israel. However even if I were from Israel it makes absolutely no difference to my opinions or how they should be perceived. I would report this but prefer to leave it up to show you for what you are.

[JustAnotherHun]

Hamas strategy:

First we kill hundreds of civilians in Israel, rape women and slaughter children.

Then we use palestinian civilians as human shields and hide in hospitals and schools.

Then we cry "the Israeli murderers attack hospitals and schools and are carrying out a genozide, how unfair! We want a ceasefire and maybe we might free our hostages in return.

After we regroup, got new weapons from Iran and have rebuilt our tunnels we go ahead trying to wipe out Israel from the map as we promised in our founding documents....

 

[Bkk Brian]

5 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

 

The real issue is the notion of total ceasefire, which has been too ambiguously addressed according to the countries who vetoed the resolution. Still from this article:

 

Another resolution has been drafted by elected members of the council with a direct demand for a ceasefire, but Thomas-Greenfield warned that the US would veto that text if it was presented for a vote, on the grounds that it did not support negotiations under way in Doha on a deal which would establish a ceasefire in return for Hamas freeing its hostages."

[...]

The alternative resolution was reported to be on hold on Friday morning, while council members held consultations. Sherine Tadros, the head of the New York office of Amnesty International described the US resolution as “an attempt by the US to absolve themselves of the abysmal record Biden has had so far on Gaza, and submit a resolution that is not going to end the war”.

No, the real issue is that 11 member states voted for the resolution, only 3 against.

[coolcarer]

13 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Wow, did he say it was 'hilarious'? 

He mistakenly outed himself earlier as being Israeli, so kind of explains the prolific, biased posting on this thread defending the IDF, probably fought in it himself.

The only one outing themselves is you chap

[transam]

15 minutes ago, JustAnotherHun said:

Hamas strategy:

First we kill hundreds of civilians in Israel, rape women and slaughter children.

Then we use palestinian civilians as human shields and hide in hospitals and schools.

Then we cry "the Israeli murderers attack hospitals and schools and are carrying out a genozide, how unfair! We want a ceasefire and maybe we might free our hostages in return.

After we regroup, got new weapons from Iran and have rebuilt our tunnels we go ahead trying to wipe out Israel from the map as we promised in our founding documents....

 

That just about sums it up, except for a couple on here that are incapable of seeing it, to me, to protect terrorists.

Mind you, Corbyn & Abbott were of the same ilk, and got paid for it..🥴

[rattlesnake]

5 hours ago, JustAnotherHun said:

Hamas strategy:

First we kill hundreds of civilians in Israel, rape women and slaughter children.

Then we use palestinian civilians as human shields and hide in hospitals and schools.

Then we cry "the Israeli murderers attack hospitals and schools and are carrying out a genozide, how unfair! We want a ceasefire and maybe we might free our hostages in return.

After we regroup, got new weapons from Iran and have rebuilt our tunnels we go ahead trying to wipe out Israel from the map as we promised in our founding documents....

 

You forgot the bit where Israel has always claimed the whole Palestinian territory was its God-given right, that it considers Palestinians to be inferior beings and that it helped create, fund and bolster Hamas to sabotage the two-State solution.

[ezzra]

The Russian President described those involved in the attack as “criminals (who) were cold-blooded and purposefully going to kill, shoot our citizens and our children at point-blank range”

 

When gunmen kill his people, Putin says they're terrorists, but when terrorists kills Israelis, they're 'freedom fighters',

Now that the shoe is on the other foot, let's see how Putin will deal with those 'who fight for their freedom

and country'...

 

 

[ozimoron]

33 minutes ago, ezzra said:

The Russian President described those involved in the attack as “criminals (who) were cold-blooded and purposefully going to kill, shoot our citizens and our children at point-blank range”

 

When gunmen kill his people, Putin says they're terrorists, but when terrorists kills Israelis, they're 'freedom fighters',

Now that the shoe is on the other foot, let's see how Putin will deal with those 'who fight for their freedom

and country'...

 

The problem here is the characterisation that all Hamas are terrorists and none of them are freedom fighters. If your country was under such a sustained attack as Gaza, would you join a militia to defend it? Who wouldn't? On one side we have a fully funded and equipped army with jets and tanks and on the other side we have a militia with nothing other than light weapons and home made rockets. How are they meant to defend themselves.? What tactics do they have to defend themselves?

 

How many terror attacks have occurred since October 7th? i can find no reports of any. I'm not suggesting they haven't but there have been no reports. This is a war of retribution and revenge  by Israel and nothing more. Israel does not have the right to revenge. It has the right to self defence and to redress by international courts and international condemnation, nothing more.

 

Edited March 23 by ozimoron

[ezzra]

5 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

The problem here is the characterisation that all Hamas are terrorists and none of them are freedom fighters. If your country was under such a sustained attack as Gaza, would you join a militia to defend it? Who wouldn't? On one side we have a fully funded and equipped army with jets and tanks and on the other side we have a militia with nothing other than light weapons and home made rockets. How are they meant to defend themselves.? What tactics do they have to defend themselves? How many terror attacks have occurred since October 7th? This is a war of retribution by Israel and nothing more. Israel does not have the right to revenge. It has the right to redress by international courts and international condemnation, nothing more.

 

Firs of all, if your bring nothing but untold death, famine and destruction on your people and NO HOPE of winning this

battle/war, you know that is is futile to continue, unless of course, your people lives to matter and you want to win at any cost

which will not happen and you still continue knowing full well that Israel will not give an inch,

Secondly, Hamas and all the other terrorists groups are receiving 90% of their arms fro Iran, Russia, China, N. Korea

and other countries,

Thirdly, by now, everyone should know that if you kill Israelis you'll pay for it DEARLY, and all past wars should

attest to it that no matter where or who you're, you will be found and be dealt with as almost all Hamas leadership

have been killed and the rest of them will met their Allah soon

So in light of all the above, what were you thinking when you decided to start the 7.10 mess?...

[ozimoron]

8 minutes ago, ezzra said:

Firs of all, if your bring nothing but untold death, famine and destruction on your people and NO HOPE of winning this

battle/war, you know that is is futile to continue, unless of course, your people lives to matter and you want to win at any cost

which will not happen and you still continue knowing full well that Israel will not give an inch,

Secondly, Hamas and all the other terrorists groups are receiving 90% of their arms fro Iran, Russia, China, N. Korea

and other countries,

Thirdly, by now, everyone should know that if you kill Israelis you'll pay for it DEARLY, and all past wars should

attest to it that no matter where or who you're, you will be found and be dealt with as almost all Hamas leadership

have been killed and the rest of them will met their Allah soon

So in light of all the above, what were you thinking when you decided to start the 7.10 mess?...

 

You're advocating revenge rather than redress under international law.

 

Turn on any US cable news network, and you’ll see one pro-Israeli pundit or representative blame Palestinians for their own deaths, or Hamas, or a combination of both.

 

https://www.trtworld.com/opinion/international-law-guarantees-palestinians-the-right-to-resist-17810

Edited March 23 by ozimoron

[ezzra]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

You're advocating revenge rather than redress under international law.

Call it what you like, still, anyone who harms Israel or Jewish people will pay dearly, international laws or not,

(tell that to Putin who's been bombing Ukraine killing many) International laws didn't stop Hamas 

form raping , killing and kidnapping those on 7.10, so please, spare me the BS about international laws...

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, ezzra said:

Call it what you like, still, anyone who harms Israel or Jewish people will pay dearly, international laws or not,

(tell that to Putin who's been bombing Ukraine killing many) International laws didn't stop Hamas 

form raping , killing and kidnapping those on 7.10, so please, spare me the BS about international laws...

 

If we can't abide by international law we are not a civilised society.

 

Pardon me for being a pacifist. I will condemn anybody who advocates violence as a solution to anything.

 

Edited March 23 by ozimoron

[ezzra]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

If we can't abide by international law we are not a civilised society.

 

Pardon me for being a pacifist. I will condemn anybody who advocates violence as a solution to anything.

 

Yes, you're right, international laws should be aided by one and all, but what do you do and how you protect

yourself when some just piss all over it and go out to do what THEY THINK needs to be done?

So, until every one will toe the line, this world will be what it is now, one big mess!!!

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, ezzra said:

Yes, you're right, international laws should be aided by one and all, but what do you do and how you protect

yourself when some just piss all over it and go out to do what THEY THINK needs to be done?

So, until every one will toe the line, this world will be what it is now, one big mess!!!

 

A possible solution might be to seek an international resolution to the conflict which is a just outcome for both sides and provides for sanctions and penalties for breaches of the peace..

[ezzra]

Just now, ozimoron said:

 

A possible solution might be to seek an international resolution to the conflict which is a just outcome for both sides and provides for sanctions and penalties for breaches of the peace..

The problem is that no one, no foreign entity want to temporally govern this hornets nest called Gaza,

not even other Arab countries, to make sure that all agreed on directives and understandings

will be  carried out to rehabilitate Gaza back to normal, as the the Palestinian authority are useless and spineless,

which leave Hamas and other terrorist groups again in control, something that Israel will not agree to,

so until the time where such body will found that will be accepted by ALL, thing will just continue

as the're now..

[ozimoron]

8 minutes ago, ezzra said:

The problem is that no one, no foreign entity want to temporally govern this hornets nest called Gaza,

not even other Arab countries, to make sure that all agreed on directives and understandings

will be  carried out to rehabilitate Gaza back to normal, as the the Palestinian authority are useless and spineless,

which leave Hamas and other terrorist groups again in control, something that Israel will not agree to,

so until the time where such body will found that will be accepted by ALL, thing will just continue

as the're now..

 

The problem is that the Palestinians have never been allowed to govern themselves. You can say they do but the reality is that all movement of goods and people in and out of Gaza is controlled by Israel. Israel have always maintained a reason for the Palestinians to resist as they have never acknowledged that Gaza truly belongs to Palestinians. Whenever Palestinians do resist, Israel retaliates with wildly disproportionate force which usually amounts to war crimes. Then there is the constant encroachment of Palestinian land by illegal settlers, aided and abetted by the Israeli government. The story of Gaza since 1948 has been one of constant provocation followed by retribution.

 

The UN is the appropriate body. It was mainly setup in order to prevent recurrences of the holocaust and even created Israel to provide a homeland for Jews yet here we are with Israel rejecting any UN authority.

Edited March 23 by ozimoron

[Bkk Brian]

Talks ongoing in Qatar this coming week on hostage deal etc. Significant that Hamas's Gaza terrorist leader's Deputy has joined them. Israel has accepted a more generous deal with concessions to Hamas stricter demands on the Palestinian prisoners to be released but now again waiting for news.

 

Report: Sinwar’s deputy is at hostage talks in Qatar; Israeli team set to stay several days

The Israeli delegation is continuing negotiations tonight on a hostage-truce deal in Qatar, and the process is advancing, Channel 12 reports.

The talks involve not only delegations from Israel, the US, Qatar and Egypt, but also a Hamas delegation including Ismail Haniyeh, Khaled Mashaal, and Khalil al-Haya, a deputy to Hamas’s Gaza chief Yahya Sinwar, the report says.

Channel 12, echoing an earlier report from the Walla news site, says there are major differences on the issue of how many and which Palestinian security prisoners would be freed — prompting the US to present a compromise proposal. The original Paris framework from last month provided for 400 security prisoners to be freed for 40 hostages — women, children, the sick and elderly — in the first phase of a deal. The new US compromise is “more generous” for Hamas, but has been accepted by Israel, says Channel 12. The teams are now waiting for a response from Gaza, which could take hours or days.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/report-sinwars-deputy-is-at-hostage-talks-in-qatar-israeli-team-set-to-stay-several-days/

[ezzra]

42 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

The problem is that the Palestinians have never been allowed to govern themselves. You can say they do but the reality is that all movement of goods and people in and out of Gaza is controlled by Israel. Israel have always maintained a reason for the Palestinians to resist as they have never acknowledged that Gaza truly belongs to Palestinians. Whenever Palestinians do resist, Israel retaliates with wildly disproportionate force which usually amounts to war crimes. Then there is the constant encroachment of Palestinian land by illegal settlers, aided and abetted by the Israeli government. The story of Gaza since 1948 has been one of constant provocation followed by retribution.

 

The UN is the appropriate body. It was mainly setup in order to prevent recurrences of the holocaust and even created Israel to provide a homeland for Jews yet here we are with Israel rejecting any UN authority.

The Palestinian Authority controlled the Gaza Strip prior to the Palestinian elections of 2006 and the subsequent Gaza conflict between the Fatah and Hamas parties, when it lost control to Hamas, the PA continues to claim the Gaza Strip, although Hamas exercises de facto control,

Just to remind you that the Palestinians depends on Israel for almost all life's necessities as the're unable to provide for themselves,

Israel would love nothing better than to get rid of this cesspool of a place and let them fend for themselves but they can't,

Also, Hamas didn't have any problems bringing tones of war materiel and weapons through tunnels and from Egypt,

they could have just as well use this methods for doing good, no evil,

To cut a long story short, as long as Hams and its masters Iran are there controlling everything,

no peace process will work,as 7.10 will only repeat itself again and again.. get the terrorist out and all will

have a very good chance to be well.. Can you argue with that?...

[Hummin]

35 minutes ago, ezzra said:

The Palestinian Authority controlled the Gaza Strip prior to the Palestinian elections of 2006 and the subsequent Gaza conflict between the Fatah and Hamas parties, when it lost control to Hamas, the PA continues to claim the Gaza Strip, although Hamas exercises de facto control,

Just to remind you that the Palestinians depends on Israel for almost all life's necessities as the're unable to provide for themselves,

Israel would love nothing better than to get rid of this cesspool of a place and let them fend for themselves but they can't,

Also, Hamas didn't have any problems bringing tones of war materiel and weapons through tunnels and from Egypt,

they could have just as well use this methods for doing good, no evil,

To cut a long story short, as long as Hams and its masters Iran are there controlling everything,

no peace process will work,as 7.10 will only repeat itself again and again.. get the terrorist out and all will

have a very good chance to be well.. Can you argue with that?...

It is easy to say the Palestinian have their own to blaim, and why not just give up, and let Israel control Gaza an Lebanon? 

 

Being treated like a dog is not that bad, is it?