Justice Department investigating door plug blowout on Alaska Airlines flight, report says

[Georgealbert]

Boeing 737 Max 8, crash victim families make final appeal to hold Boeing accountable, at a meeting with Department of Justice officials on Friday, 31 May.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2024/05/31/boeing-737-crash-families-justice-accountability/

[Georgealbert]

US Senator Tammy Duckworth, who chairs a subcommittee on aviation, urges FAA to ensure accountability in Boeing quality plan.

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/us-senator-urges-faa-ensure-012940520.html

[stevenl]

@Georgealbert 

thanks for keeping us informed on the developments here 

[Georgealbert]

10 hours ago, stevenl said:

@Georgealbert 

thanks for keeping us informed on the developments here 

Thanks, but originally only got involved in the thread, as push back against some way out claims.
 

Now I just post new facts as they appear, shows I am a bit boring, and expect a final decision on any possible prosecution will become clear next month.

[Georgealbert]

This is a look at the Boeing 737 fuselage production factory, of Spirit AeroSystems, in Wichita, where Federal investigators say that panel, on the Alaska Airlines flight, had to be reopened in order to repair some damaged rivets, before the door blow out incident.

 

https://www.npr.org/2024/06/04/nx-s1-4983722/inside-spirit-aerosystems-factory-boeing-737-max

[morrobay]

4 hours ago, Georgealbert said:

Thanks, but originally only got involved in the thread, as push back against some way out claims.
 

Now I just post new facts as they appear, shows I am a bit boring, and expect a final decision on any possible prosecution will become clear next month.

I favor facts from an engineer/whistleblower to some of these management saps "facts" The real problem are these two technical flight pilots who withheld knowledge about the MCAS system. And that continuing criminal negligence resulted in the second crash. I am baffled how there is any question at all about Boeing being or not being prosecuted. Should have been 3 years ago. Lhttps://www.bbc.com/news/business-68979354

[impulse]

28 minutes ago, morrobay said:

I am baffled how there is any question at all about Boeing being or not being prosecuted. Should have been 3 years ago.

 

The problem with prosecuting Boeing is that >99% of the people who would be punished are innocent of any wrongdoing.  That's thousands of stockholders and thousands of employees who did nothing wrong. 

 

They need to criminally prosecute the individuals who filed false inspection reports, those who covered them up, the team(s) that hid MCAS from regulators, from customer airlines and from the public, and those who covered for them.  Starting as high in the organization as the investigations take them.  Toss a few of them in the hoosgaw and see if anyone files a fake inspection report next month... 

 

But don't punish grandpa in Michigan that has Boeing stock in his retirement account, or Millie who makes the coffee in the Boeing employee dining hall.

 

[Georgealbert]

34 minutes ago, morrobay said:

I favor facts from an engineer/whistleblower to some of these management saps "facts" The real problem are these two technical flight pilots who withheld knowledge about the MCAS system. And that continuing criminal negligence resulted in the second crash. I am baffled how there is any question at all about Boeing being or not being prosecuted. Should have been 3 years ago. Lhttps://www.bbc.com/news/business-68979354

This discussion has been had on these threads.

 

The fact is Boeing was given a deferred prosecution agreement, which protected them and their staff. That may change when the a decision is given, by the department of justice in July, to what action is to be taken.

 

You continuing to repeat the same opinion, is not going to change the real facts.

 

 

[morrobay]

4 hours ago, impulse said:

 

The problem with prosecuting Boeing is that >99% of the people who would be punished are innocent of any wrongdoing.  That's thousands of stockholders and thousands of employees who did nothing wrong. 

 

They need to criminally prosecute the individuals who filed false inspection reports, those who covered them up, the team(s) that hid MCAS from regulators, from customer airlines and from the public, and those who covered for them.  Starting as high in the organization as the investigations take them.  Toss a few of them in the hoosgaw and see if anyone files a fake inspection report next month... 

 

 

 

Of course when I say Boeing I am referring to all those you listed. And if these two  criminally negligent technical flight pilots who with held info about the flawed MCAS system after the first crash. And continued withholding the info that then resulted in the second crash. (FACTS not opinions )must be prosecuted and convicted . 

 

 

 

Edited June 5 by morrobay

[Georgealbert]

2 hours ago, morrobay said:

Of course when I say Boeing I am referring to all those you listed. And if these two  criminally negligent technical flight pilots who with held info about the flawed MCAS system after the first crash. And continued withholding the info that then resulted in the second crash. (FACTS not opinions )must be prosecuted and convicted . 

 

 

 

“FACTS not opinions )must be prosecuted and convicted.”  You seem to think that if you keep repeating yourself, with the same opinion, it makes it a fact. 55555

 

There were no prosecutions from the Max 8 crashes, because of the sweetheart, deferred prosecution deal. That is a real fact, which you lack the ability to see. 
 

i have linked the deferred prosecution deal previously, try reading it, that deal is the fact. All I can do is post these real facts, but is impossible for me help you understand, which you clearly do not.

 

I also notice, you have never answered the question, when I asked if you know who gave Boeing the deferred prosecution deal, is that because it does not fit your agenda? So instead you choose to deflect the reality and post your rant, again and again, claiming it is now the truth.

 

Try sticking to the facts, which is the Department of Justice, will announce in July, the extent that Boeing has breached the deal and if there are going to be any prosecutions.

[morrobay]

[morrobay]

https://www.citizen.org/news/its-time-to-prosecute-boeing-for-deadly-misconduct/.  Oh I fully understand this outrageous off the hook deferred prosecution "sweetheart deal" . As I said earlier Boeing. , DOJ, FAA are all on the same side. And from above screenshot Boeing is flat out lying when they state that MCAS info was not concealed and all the mumbo jumbo in the world ain't changing these facts. That is, the technical pilots criminal negligence in concealing MCAS flaws that resulted in the crashes

 

 

Edited June 5 by morrobay

[Georgealbert]

3 minutes ago, morrobay said:

https://www.citizen.org/news/its-time-to-prosecute-boeing-for-deadly-misconduct/.  Oh I fully understand this outrageous off the hook deferred prosecution "deal" . As I said earlier Boeing. , DOJ, FAA are all on the same side. And from above screenshot Boeing is flat out lying when the state that MCAS info was not with held. And all the mumbo jumbo in the world ain't changing these facts. At least some on this thread are calling spades spades 

 

 

You clearly do not understand the deferred prosecution deal.

 

Here is a further quote from the article of the screenshot, which again explains the deal.

 

“Families of those who died say that the deal Boeing reached with the Department of Justice (DoJ) in 2021 to resolve a criminal conspiracy charge was a "sweetheart agreement" which violated their rights and allowed the company to avoid being held fully accountable. 
 

The DoJ has defended its decision, insisting that the settlement was appropriate, because it could not prove beyond reasonable doubt that there was a direct connection between Boeing's alleged crimes and the two crashes.”

 

This is the link to the full article.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-64390546

 

Your second link to is a citzen.org, is an opinion piece, which as I have been saying, the DOJ, will announce in July, what action is being taken. That link also tells you, who struck the very lenient agreement with Boeing.

 

The Max 8 crashes.

Lion Air JT610

 

“Indonesia’s National Transportation Safety Committee (KNKT) published its final 322-page accident investigation report on the October 2018 Lion Air Boeing 737 MAX flight JT610 crash, finding that it was caused by a combination of an improperly aligned angle of attack (AOA) sensor, lack of pilot reporting and training as well as a breakdown in safety oversight of certification and design flaws shared between Boeing and the FAA within the aircraft’s manoeuvring characteristics augmentation system (MCAS) system.

 

The report does not explicitly state a singular cause for the crash, but instead lists a total of 89 findings that KNKT investigators discovered about a multitude of factors that caused the JT610 crash to kill all 189 passengers and flight crew onboard. New revealings in the report include the discovery of the reason the AOA sensor was feeding faulty information to the flight control computer was that it was most likely improperly repaired by a U.S.-based maintenance repair facility.”

 

https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/JT610-PK-LQP-Final-Report.pdf

 

Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302

 

According to the EAIB’s final report, electrical problems that existed since the time of the accident airplane’s production caused the left angle-of-attack (AOA) sensor heater to fail, which resulted in the AOA sensor providing erroneous values that caused the MCAS to pitch the nose of the airplane downward, resulting in ground impact. However, the final report does not provide any details to support the EAIB’s statements about the existence of an electrical problem related to the left AOA sensor.

The US team found that the erroneous AOA sensor output was caused by the separation of the AOA sensor vane due to impact with a foreign object, which was most likely a bird.During the accident investigation, the NTSB provided the EAIB with the evidence supporting this finding. In fact, each set of NTSB comments detailed this evidence.

 

https://bea.aero/fileadmin/user_upload/ET_302__B737-8MAX_ACCIDENT_FINAL_REPORT.pdf

 

Note finding 50 in the report.

50. MCAS and the lack of pilot training did not trigger the accident; however it was the failure of the sensors due to the production quality
defects. If the intermittent defects did not cause the AOA Sensors to fail on the accident flight, MCAS would not have activated, and the accident
would not have occurred. The MCAS would have remained as [a] hidden threat until its true nature is exposed by some other valid or erroneous causes.
 

[Georgealbert]

Outgoing Boeing CEO Dave Calhoun will testify before a U.S. Senate panel on June 18.

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeing-ceo-testify-u-senate-195101979.html

[morrobay]

Ok on July 7 the DOJ decides whether or not to prosecute Boeing. But what are the mechanics : exactly who are going to be prosecuted? I would assume that there has been an investigation that has uncovered a number of individuals as noted in part in post by impulse. That is, it seems there would have to be any number of individual prosecutions ?  And especially the two technical flight pilots who concealed info on flaws in the MCAS and related systems. Or are they going to be lost in the shuffle. On side note it seems that  Boeings problems are related to the software engineers replacing aeronautical engineers

Edited June 6 by morrobay

[Georgealbert]

2 hours ago, morrobay said:

Ok on July 7 the DOJ decides whether or not to prosecute Boeing. But what are the mechanics : exactly who are going to be prosecuted? I would assume that there has been an investigation that has uncovered a number of individuals as noted in part in post by impulse. That is, it seems there would have to be any number of individual prosecutions ?  And especially the two technical flight pilots who concealed info on flaws in the MCAS and related systems. Or are they going to be lost in the shuffle. On side note it seems that  Boeings problems are related to the software engineers replacing aeronautical engineers

Try reading my posts. As unlike you , I have no preconceived agenda, I post current information/facts, about aviation. You seem to just look for facts to fit your agenda and ignore anything else. How can you expect to be taken seriously when you call the facts and credible links “all the mumbo jumbo” and then keep repeating the same statements, to claim you opinions are the real facts, “(FACTS not opinions )must be prosecuted and convicted “

 

You have this continuous obsession about.the MCAS and this fantasy that 2 pilots should have been prosecuted, even after the deferred prosecution deal, shows you clearly do not understand the deferred deal. Also I posted, yesterday the full accident reports for the 2 Max 8 crashes, try reading them, and then show me the evidence in those report, that you think supports your opinions.

 

I will repeat again, hope this time you will understand. The Department of Justice will announce, in July, what action will be taken with Boeing, before that, everything is just pure speculation.

 

Also, so funny to try to use impluse to support your rants, read his classic conspiracy nonsense post, from the start of the thread.

 

“The wingnut conspiracy guy in me wondered about the odds that both the seats next to the plug would be empty, given an almost full plane and the fact that Alaska knew there was something wrong with the pressurization to the point they would not allow the plane to fly over water.

 

It's still a wingnut conspiracy, but here's my calculation for both those seats being empty, with 171 of the 178 seats being full”

Edited June 6 by Georgealbert

[Georgealbert]

Analysis of the safety data of Boeing and Airbus aircraft, by the Lynnwood Times, using National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) incident records from 2014 to 2023.

 

it does seem a bit weighted to protect and support Boeing, but the data and information, is a good read, and reaches the conclusion “that there is no statistically significant safety difference Boeing and Airbus”

https://lynnwoodtimes.com/2024/06/05/boeing-safety/

 

 

 

[Georgealbert]

Lets put together all the facts, about the MCAS and the Boeing test pilots, then we maybe can prevent further repeated posts trying to hijack the thread, by stating the same thing over and over, and then falsely ranting that those opinions are facts.

 

1.What is MCAS?

 

‘MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) is implemented on the 737 MAX to enhance longitudinal stability characteristics with flaps up and at elevated Angles of Attack (AoA). The MCAS function commands nose down stabilizer to enhance pitch characteristics during steep turns with elevated load factors and during flaps up flight at airspeeds approaching stall. MCAS is activated without pilot input and only operates in manual, flaps up flight. The system is designed to allow the flight crew to use column trim switch or stabilizer aislestand cutout switches to override MCAS input. The function is commanded by the Flight Control Computer (FCC) using input data from sensors and other airplane systems.

 

The MCAS function becomes active when the AoA exceeds a threshold based on airspeed and altitude. After AoA falls below the hysteresis threshold (0.5 degrees below the activation angle), MCAS commands nose up stabiliser to return the aircraft to the trim state that existed before the MCAS activation.’

 

https://www.aviationfile.com/maneuvering-characteristics-augmentation-system-mcas/
 

Also see pictures below.

 

2. What is the Deferred prosecution Deal?

 

The last administration, in its final days handed a sweetheart deal to Boeing to protect it from prosecution.

 

https://www.justice.gov/criminal/criminal-fraud/case/united-states-v-boeing-company

 

3. Was MCAS blamed soley for the Max 8 crashes?

 

Lion Air JT610

 

“Indonesia’s National Transportation Safety Committee (KNKT) published its final 322-page accident investigation report on the October 2018 Lion Air Boeing 737 MAX flight JT610 crash, finding that it was caused by a combination of an improperly aligned angle of attack (AOA) sensor, lack of pilot reporting and training as well as a breakdown in safety oversight of certification and design flaws shared between Boeing and the FAA within the aircraft’s manoeuvring characteristics augmentation system (MCAS) system.

 

The report does not explicitly state a singular cause for the crash, but instead lists a total of 89 findings that KNKT investigators discovered about a multitude of factors that caused the JT610 crash”

https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/JT610-PK-LQP-Final-Report.pdf

 

Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302
 

Finding 50 in the final report. “MCAS and the lack of pilot training did not trigger the accident; however it was the failure of the sensors due to the production quality defects. If the intermittent defects did not cause the AOA Sensors to fail on the accident flight, MCAS would not have activated, and the accident would not have occurred. The MCAS would have remained as [a] hidden threat until its true nature is exposed by some other valid or erroneous causes.”

 

https://bea.aero/fileadmin/user_upload/ET_302__B737-8MAX_ACCIDENT_FINAL_REPORT.pdf

 

4. Boeing Chief Technical Pilot Mark A. Forkner.

 

Forkner, who worked at the FAA before joining Boeing, left the aircraft manufacturer in 2018, months before the first crash, then briefly worked at Southwest Airlines. The Department of Justice in 2021 indicted him on 4 charges of wire fraud, based on communications that Forkner had with the FAA and with two big Boeing customers, Southwest Airlines and American Airlines.

 

At trial in 2022, testimony lasted less than three days and Forkner did not testify. Judge Reed O’Connor had instructed the jurors not to consider his silence as a sign of guilt or innocence. The defense called only one witness, a current Boeing pilot, who testified for about one hour.

 

The jury in the federal district court in Fort Worth deliberated less than two hours before finding Forkner not guilty on all four counts of wire fraud.

 

https://www.courthousenews.com/texas-federal-jury-quickly-acquits-former-boeing-test-pilot-of-misleading-feds-about-737-max/
 

These are the real facts, supported with credible links, it is only consider ‘mumbo jumbo’ when you lack the capacity to understand. Maybe the thread can now move on from the repeated opinions, rants and conspiracies.

[morrobay]

Just because a jury of 12 SAPS who most likely have no technical knowledge aquitted these sack of ---- technical pilot does not mean he is not guilty. Do you think OJ Simpson is innocent because 12 racists jurors aquitted him ????https://blog.volkovlaw.com/2022/03/boeing-technical-pilot-acquitted-on-criminal-charges-from-737-max-safety-scandal/

[morrobay]

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-54174223

[Georgealbert]

55 minutes ago, morrobay said:

Just because a jury of 12 SAPS who most likely have no technical knowledge aquitted these sack of ---- technical pilot does not mean he is not guilty. Do you think OJ Simpson is innocent because 12 racists jurors aquitted him ????https://blog.volkovlaw.com/2022/03/boeing-technical-pilot-acquitted-on-criminal-charges-from-737-max-safety-scandal/

So it seems that you believe you are the only one that see the real truth! 
 

Again you go searching for links to fit your agenda.. You post a 4 year old, outdated BBC story, and an opinion piece.

 

So you are saying the jury was wrong?
The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) were wrong?
Accident Investigation Bureau of Ethiopia’s (EAIB) were wrong?
Indonesia’s National Transportation Safety Committee (KNKT) were wrong?

But the real truth is contained in the blog of Michael Volkov, a lawyer with very little aviation knowledge or experience.

 

Your alethophobia is showing and you are  clearly blinded by your own preconceived bias. I will not longer reply to your nonsense, as it does not matter how many real facts you are presented, you are never going to believe the real truth.

 

Bye and have a good day in your alternative cult reality.

Edited June 7 by Georgealbert

[Georgealbert]

The head of the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) will tell the U.S. Senate Commerce Committee on Thursday 13 June, that the agency will maintain its increased on-site presence at Boeing and its supplier Spirit AeroSystems "for the foreseeable future."
 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/faa-maintain-increased-person-oversight-194749426.html

[Georgealbert]

Boeing told the U.S. Justice Department it did not violate the deferred prosecution agreement after fatal crashes involving the 737 MAX.

 

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/litigation/boeing-tells-doj-it-didnt-violate-deal-after-737-max-crashes
 

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/world/boeing-faces-deadline-rebut-possible-united-states-prosecution-beoing-737-max-4406851

 

Edited June 13 by Georgealbert

[impulse]

I'll post this link to a Southwest Airlines Boeing Max having a Dutch Roll "event" in flight that did some damage.  It'll be interesting to see what caused it...

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/airline-news/2024/06/14/southwest-airlines-dutch-roll-investigation/74098322007/

[Georgealbert]

2 hours ago, impulse said:

I'll post this link to a Southwest Airlines Boeing Max having a Dutch Roll "event" in flight that did some damage.  It'll be interesting to see what caused it...

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/airline-news/2024/06/14/southwest-airlines-dutch-roll-investigation/74098322007/

Sorry, but this thread is about the justice department investigation in Boeing, not about cherry picking a single aircraft incident, because it suits your anti Boeing agenda. 
 

There are many websites that give full details and facts about all incidents, accidents and investigations, which regularly occur, for all types and makes of aircraft.

 

Pointless discussing this incident, before at least the preliminary investigation is issued, as it will be pure speculation, so lets stick to the facts known so far.

 

On Jun 14th 2024 the NTSB reported: 

The NTSB has opened an investigation into an inflight oscillation event on a Southwest Airlines B-737-MAX8.

“The event, which was described by the flight crew as a “Dutch roll,” occurred on May 25 at about 8 am PT at an altitude of 34,000 feet as Southwest flight 746 was enroute from Phoenix, Arizona (PHX), to Oakland, California (OAK).

A Dutch roll is a coupled oscillation in an airplane’s yaw and roll axes, inherent to the flight dynamics of all conventional airplanes.

None of the 175 passengers or crew of six aboard the flight were injured in the event.

Following the event, SWA performed maintenance on the airplane and discovered damage to structural components. SWA notified the NTSB of the event and damage on June 7.

The NTSB’s Vehicle Recorder Laboratory in Washington has received data downloaded from the airplane’s digital flight data recorder. Data from the recorder will aid investigators in determining the length and severity of the event.

The cockpit voice recorder, which is currently limited to two hours of audio, was overwritten and unavailable to investigators.

A preliminary report is expected within 30 days of the date of the event.”

[Georgealbert]

Boeing CEO Dave Calhoun will testify before a US Senate panel on June 18 to address safety concerns about the Boeing 737 MAX.

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/video/boeing-ceo-testify-senate-expect-151251355.html

[impulse]

2 hours ago, Georgealbert said:

Sorry, but this thread is about the justice department investigation in Boeing, not about cherry picking a single aircraft incident, because it suits your anti Boeing agenda. 

 

Gosh.  And here I thought it was a public forum, and this thread is about quality escapes from Boeing. 

 

With dutch rolls being such a rare occurrence in commercial aircraft, and virtually never causing damage, what do you figure are the odds that this may turn out to be another quality escape on the Max line?  I guess we'll know more in 30 days or so...

 

“Having a Dutch roll event is unusual,” John Cox, an instructor at the University of Southern California and CEO of the consulting firm Safety Operating Systems, told The Washington Post.

“Having one that caused damage is unheard of,” he said.

 

https://www.westernjournal.com/faa-investigating-boeing-737-suffers-dangerous-dutch-roll-incident-midair/

 

CBS News Aviation Safety analyst Robert Sumwalt told CBS News senior transportation and national correspondent Kris Van Cleave via email that, "Any uncommanded flight control movement is potentially significant. The fact that this resulted in significant damage makes this sort of a big deal." 

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/southwest-airlines-dutch-roll-boeing-737-max-phoenix-oakland-flight/

I'm also wondering why Southwest had an equipment damaging inflight event on May 25, but didn't report it to the NTSB until 2 weeks later?  Seems like that's something they should have reported as soon as they saw the damage and took the airplane out of service.

 

 

[Georgealbert]

2 hours ago, impulse said:

 

Gosh. And here I thought it was a public forum, and this thread is about quality escapes from Boeing. 

 

With dutch rolls being such a rare occurrence in commercial aircraft, and virtually never causing damage, what do you figure are the odds that this may turn out to be another quality escape on the Max line? I guess we'll know more in 30 days or so...

 

“Having a Dutch roll event is unusual,” John Cox, an instructor at the University of Southern California and CEO of the consulting firm Safety Operating Systems, told The Washington Post.

“Having one that caused damage is unheard of,” he said.

 

https://www.westernjournal.com/faa-investigating-boeing-737-suffers-dangerous-dutch-roll-incident-midair/

 

CBS News Aviation Safety analyst Robert Sumwalt told CBS News senior transportation and national correspondent Kris Van Cleave via email that, "Any uncommanded flight control movement is potentially significant. The fact that this resulted in significant damage makes this sort of a big deal." 

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/southwest-airlines-dutch-roll-boeing-737-max-phoenix-oakland-flight/

I'm also wondering why Southwest had an equipment damaging inflight event on May 25, but didn't report it to the NTSB until 2 weeks later? Seems like that's something they should have reported as soon as they saw the damage and took the airplane out of service.

 

 

This is the title of the thread “ Justice Department investigating door plug blowout on Alaska Airlines flight, report says” 

 

It is not a thread about every incident that occurs to a Boeing aircraft. You do understand other aircraft type have problems, but wait that does not fit your agenda.

 

The real facts and details  will be released after the investigation, but I doubt that you will then believe it. I find it sad that someone is so paranoid, that they see conspiracies everywhere, and you have certainly posted some “wing-nut” theories (your own words) recently..

 

[Georgealbert]

Boeing will lose on Capitol Hill, how much is up to CEO David Calhoun.

 

https://theaircurrent.com/industry-strategy/boeing-will-lose-on-capitol-hill-how-much-is-up-to-david-calhoun/

[Georgealbert]

In the understatement of 2024 so far, Boeing’s CEO says his company has been ‘far from perfect’ after a litany of safety snafus.

 

https://thehill.com/policy/defense/4728162-boeing-ceo-congressional-hearing/
 

Boeing lost track of up to 400 bad 737 parts, whistleblower says.

 

https://gulfnews.com/business/aviation/boeing-lost-track-of-up-to-400-bad-737-parts-whistleblower-says-1.103170057