Possible Ukrainian defensive retreat

[simple1]

The congressional delay in approving a $60 billion military aid package has been costly for Ukraine, Zelensky said. The military has been unable to plan future operations while legislators squabbled for nearly six months. He warned that hard-pressed Ukrainian forces might have to retreat to secure their front lines and conserve ammunition.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/03/29/ignatius-zelensky-interview-ukraine-aid-russia/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_opinions&utm_campaign=wp_opinions

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, simple1 said:

The congressional delay in approving a $60 billion military aid package has been costly for Ukraine, Zelensky said. The military has been unable to plan future operations while legislators squabbled for nearly six months. He warned that hard-pressed Ukrainian forces might have to retreat to secure their front lines and conserve ammunition.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/03/29/ignatius-zelensky-interview-ukraine-aid-russia/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_opinions&utm_campaign=wp_opinions

Always good to be able to blame other people for his own mistakes. Perhaps Zelensky should have considered what would happen if his supply chain was severed BEFORE taking his country to war by refusing to negotiate.

 

I feel sorry for all the Ukrainians that are going to die as long as he refuses to do so.

 

By all means he can call it a "defensive retreat" if it makes him feel better, but some of us know what it really is.

 

A war is usually won or lost by the morale of the troops, so how will the morale be of either side if Ukraine retreats?

[Olmate]

6 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Always good to be able to blame other people for his own mistakes. Perhaps Zelensky should have considered what would happen if his supply chain was severed BEFORE taking his country to war by refusing to negotiate.

 

I feel sorry for all the Ukrainians that are going to die as long as he refuses to do so.

 

By all means he can call it a "defensive retreat" if it makes him feel better, but some of us know what it really is.

 

A war is usually won or lost by the morale of the troops, so how will the morale be of either side if Ukraine retreats?

Spoken like a true "once we were wariours"! 

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, Olmate said:

Spoken like a true "once we were wariours"! 

Well, once upon a long time ago I was a warrior, and was all ready to go to Vietnam, but they cancelled it before I got to go, so I missed out my my generation's war. Since then I found out it was a war based on BS, and later I found out that most wars were based on BS, so yes, Once I was a warrior, but not for a long time.

 

Have a nice day.

[thaibeachlovers]

16 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Always good to be able to blame other people for his own mistakes. Perhaps Zelensky should have considered what would happen if his supply chain was severed BEFORE taking his country to war by refusing to negotiate.

 

I feel sorry for all the Ukrainians that are going to die as long as he refuses to do so.

 

By all means he can call it a "defensive retreat" if it makes him feel better, but some of us know what it really is.

 

A war is usually won or lost by the morale of the troops, so how will the morale be of either side if Ukraine retreats?

It's too late to add it to that post, but I meant to add that Ukraine got whupped in Avdiivka not too long ago, and if they now have to give up territory so many ukrainians died to keep, it's not going to be making the Ukrainian troops very happy. They've been at the front too long, they are not getting new troops to relieve them, and apparently they are being smashed ( or no one would even be talking about a retreat ). It's not a happy state of affairs for Ukraine at all.

[Olmate]

4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Well, once upon a long time ago I was a warrior, and was all ready to go to Vietnam, but they cancelled it before I got to go, so I missed out my my generation's war. Since then I found out it was a war based on BS, and later I found out that most wars were based on BS, so yes, Once I was a warrior, but not for a long time.

 

Have a nice day.

Talks cheap, etc but yeah happy easter bunny hunting, or  is it flightless birds your gang hunts for? 

[Denim]

29 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

. Perhaps Zelensky should have considered what would happen if his supply chain was severed BEFORE taking his country to war by refusing to negotiate.

 

Negotiating with Putin means giving him everything he demands , also known as surrender.

 

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

17 minutes ago, Olmate said:

Talks cheap, etc but yeah happy easter bunny hunting, or  is it flightless birds your gang hunts for? 

I have zero idea of the point you are making.

If you support the Ukrainians, should you not be planning to volunteer to go help out on the front lines, or is it OK for other people to die for your druthers?

[thaibeachlovers]

12 minutes ago, Denim said:

 

Negotiating with Putin means giving him everything he demands , also known as surrender.

 

 

 

As Zelensky didn't even try, we'll never know, will we?

 

If ( when ) Ukraine ends up negotiating, are they in a stronger or weaker position now than they were before the Russians invaded?

Edited March 31 by thaibeachlovers

[Denim]

47 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

As Zelensky didn't even try, we'll never know, will we?

 

If ( when ) Ukraine ends up negotiating, are they in a stronger or weaker position now than they were before the Russians invaded?

 

 

There have been peace negotiations already :

 

On February 28, 2022, Russian and Ukrainian officials came together in Gomel, Belarus to start negotiating peace. Peace talks continued on and off for a month before being called off.

 

 

The negotiations

Russia invaded Ukraine on February 24, 2022; four days later, both sides started talking in Belarus. According to the New York Times, Ukraine demanded Russia be held accountable for war atrocities, withdraw from all captured Ukraine territory, including Crimea, and pay reparations. Russia demanded Ukrainian recognition of its annexation of Crimea in 2014, permanent Ukrainian neutrality, and autonomy for the ethnic Russian provinces or oblasts in eastern and south-eastern Ukraine. No progress was made, but both sides agreed to continue talking, this time with representatives of their foreign and defence ministries, and presidential administrations. 

 

https://thewire.in/world/why-peace-negotiations-between-russia-and-ukraine-failed

[impulse]

20 minutes ago, Denim said:

The negotiations

Russia invaded Ukraine on February 24, 2022; four days later, both sides started talking in Belarus. According to the New York Times, Ukraine demanded Russia be held accountable for war atrocities, withdraw from all captured Ukraine territory, including Crimea, and pay reparations.

 

That's not a negotiation.

 

[Denim]

9 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

That's not a negotiation.

 

 

Well, that is the nature of negotiations in general . Two sides putting forward their claims and desires to the other side. If neither side is prepared to alter their stance the negotiations fail. That has been seen throughout history.

Successful negotions require give and take. Unfortunately Putin under estimated Ukraine and his 2 week special operation drags on.

Let's not forget that it was Russia who invaded Ukraine and started military operations. Putin would have done better 

'' negotiating ' before he started shooting.

 

 

[Gweiloman]

18 minutes ago, Denim said:

 

Well, that is the nature of negotiations in general . Two sides putting forward their claims and desires to the other side. If neither side is prepared to alter their stance the negotiations fail. That has been seen throughout history.

Successful negotions require give and take. Unfortunately Putin under estimated Ukraine and his 2 week special operation drags on.

Let's not forget that it was Russia who invaded Ukraine and started military operations. Putin would have done better 

'' negotiating ' before he started shooting.

 

 

The actual  negotiations started in Turkey after the initial meeting in Belarus. Apparently an agreement was reached and initialled by both sides. Unfortunately for Ukraine, the West interfered saying that they have Ukraine’s back and will support them to fight Russia for as long as it takes (that is, until they got tired or ran out of ammunition or see that they are going to lose. Zelensky, being a comedian, was too naive and gullible to realise that).

 

Putin has done very well since the shooting started. Re-elected for another 6 years, Russia’s economy doing much better than many EU countries, oil and gas revenues staying high.

 

Zelensky on the other hand looks terrible. His country in ruins and getting worse by the day. Top officials being sacked almost on a daily basis and sent to the UK. Ukraine is probably going to lose more territory in the coming months. All thanks to the war mongers.

[Pouatchee]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

but some of us know what it really is.

 

i just love when someone says, 'we all know what that means', rather than actually putting words to it.

i would like to know what some of YOU know that most of us apparently dont. so please, put words to it.

[simple1]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Perhaps Zelensky should have considered what would happen if his supply chain was severed BEFORE taking his country to war by refusing to negotiate.

 

In other words "blaming the victim"

[Wobblybob]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Well, once upon a long time ago I was a warrior, and was all ready to go to Vietnam, but they cancelled it before I got to go, so I missed out my my generation's war. Since then I found out it was a war based on BS, and later I found out that most wars were based on BS, so yes, Once I was a warrior, but not for a long time.

 

Have a nice day.

Nearly going to Vietnam doesn't make one a warrior.😂😂😂

[Wobblybob]

2 hours ago, impulse said:

 

That's not a negotiation.

 

Are you saying that Russia should not be held accountable for its illegal invasion, for stealing land and holding an illegal referendum in these Oblasts. The wanton destruction of civilian instillations, the murderous and callous raping of Ukrainians?

[retarius]

7 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

It's too late to add it to that post, but I meant to add that Ukraine got whupped in Avdiivka not too long ago, and if they now have to give up territory so many ukrainians died to keep, it's not going to be making the Ukrainian troops very happy. They've been at the front too long, they are not getting new troops to relieve them, and apparently they are being smashed ( or no one would even be talking about a retreat ). It's not a happy state of affairs for Ukraine at all.

No one likes to die at the end of the war you are losing.

[retarius]

3 hours ago, Wobblybob said:

Are you saying that Russia should not be held accountable for its illegal invasion, for stealing land and holding an illegal referendum in these Oblasts. The wanton destruction of civilian instillations, the murderous and callous raping of Ukrainians?

NO, Ukraine needs to be held accountable for gross violations of human rights and war crimes for shelling civilians in the Donbass for 8 long years. Putin should have acted much sooner and there would be 14000 fewer civilians dead.

[retarius]

4 hours ago, simple1 said:

 

In other words "blaming the victim"

The best generals always look to their logistics. No Zelensky, took the US at their word, that they would support him through thick and thin. Zelensky was naive. Something tells me the US are kinda glad not to be throwing my tax dollars away before an election. Biden certainly will not get my vote under any circumstances. I'd vote for Satan before Biden. 

[simple1]

2 minutes ago, retarius said:

The best generals always look to their logistics. No Zelensky, took the US at their word, that they would support him through thick and thin. Zelensky was naive. Something tells me the US are kinda glad not to be throwing my tax dollars away before an election. Biden certainly will not get my vote under any circumstances. I'd vote for Satan before Biden. 

 

IMO rather sad commentary. Personally I totally disagree with enabling Putin's aggression. Other NATO members are carrying on with their support of Ukraine as should USA. Withdrawing support of Ukraine by the USA equates to a return of US isolationism, a very negative and destructive worldview.

[Wobblybob]

1 hour ago, retarius said:

NO, Ukraine needs to be held accountable for gross violations of human rights and war crimes for shelling civilians in the Donbass for 8 long years. Putin should have acted much sooner and there would be 14000 fewer civilians dead.

You are talking nonsense, everything that occurred in the Donbass was totally orchestrated by Putin and his henchmen, Putin is responsible for the happenings in the Donbass, but as sure as eggs are eggs I sure he appreciates the support you are giving him. Ukraine is the victim here!

[thaibeachlovers]

On 3/31/2024 at 3:27 PM, Pouatchee said:

 

i just love when someone says, 'we all know what that means', rather than actually putting words to it.

i would like to know what some of YOU know that most of us apparently dont. so please, put words to it.

That's not what I said, but never mind.

By all means he can call it a "defensive retreat" if it makes him feel better, but some of us know what it really is.

 

Some of us do, and others should wonder if they should even be posting on here.

 

However, for the easily confused, it's a retreat, PERIOD. Is that the fat lady I hear singing?

[thaibeachlovers]

On 3/31/2024 at 8:54 PM, simple1 said:

 

IMO rather sad commentary. Personally I totally disagree with enabling Putin's aggression. Other NATO members are carrying on with their support of Ukraine as should USA. Withdrawing support of Ukraine by the USA equates to a return of US isolationism, a very negative and destructive worldview.

Given that it looks like Ukraine is out of men, ergo it's out of options, and one hopes NATO isn't going to be insane enough to send NATO boots, what is the point of continuing? F16's are probably not going to stop the Russians  any more than the Leopards caused a breakthrough.

 

Ukraine can keep sending drones if that is their only option, but they are just going to get Russian ones in return.

 

Seems a few on here are willing to see Ukraine fight on literally to the last Ukrainian standing.

Are YOU prepared to volunteer for the Ukrainian front line? If not why should other men die for your druthers?

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Given that it looks like Ukraine is out of men, ergo it's out of options, and one hopes NATO isn't going to be insane enough to send NATO boots, what is the point of continuing? F16's are probably not going to stop the Russians  any more than the Leopards caused a breakthrough.

 

Ukraine can keep sending drones if that is their only option, but they are just going to get Russian ones in return.

 

Seems a few on here are willing to see Ukraine fight on literally to the last Ukrainian standing.

Are YOU prepared to volunteer for the Ukrainian front line? If not why should other men die for your druthers?

More Kremlin propaganda talking points.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 3/31/2024 at 4:00 PM, simple1 said:

 

In other words "blaming the victim"

IMO Zelensky is an idiot for believing the west would support him to the end. He's not a victim- the people he sent to the front that died are the victims.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 3/31/2024 at 12:54 PM, Denim said:

 

Negotiating with Putin means giving him everything he demands , also known as surrender.

 

 

 

Those that don't die would be happy.

[Wobblybob]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

IMO Zelensky is an idiot for believing the west would support him to the end. He's not a victim- the people he sent to the front that died are the victims.

I have just checked with President Zelensky and he says the feeling is mutual you thinking he is an idiot.

Have you forgotten Bucha already!

[Pouatchee]

27 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Some of us do, and others should wonder if they should even be posting on here.

 

i used to agree with much of what you said. now, i don't think much of you. 

what you said in what i quoted, well, it applies to you. no one here is enlightened enough to make stupid comments like this you just made. talking in riddles is just that... riddles

 

narcissists arent usually surrounded by many people. take a good look around yourself

[sirineou]

On 3/31/2024 at 8:34 AM, Denim said:

 

Well, that is the nature of negotiations in general . Two sides putting forward their claims and desires to the other side. If neither side is prepared to alter their stance the negotiations fail. That has been seen throughout history.

Successful negotions require give and take. Unfortunately Putin under estimated Ukraine and his 2 week special operation drags on.

Let's not forget that it was Russia who invaded Ukraine and started military operations. Putin would have done better 

'' negotiating ' before he started shooting.

 

 

Could not possible be more wrong. 

Mar 2022 Russia an Ukraine met in Antalya Turkey  , they were close to an agreement on six points: Ukraine’s neutrality, disarmament and security guarantees, the so-called “de-Nazification”, removal of obstacles on the use of the Russian language in Ukraine, the status of the breakaway republics in the Donbas region and the status of Crimea annexed by Russia in 2014.

Britain and the US pressured Zelensky  to withdraw from negotiations because they thought Ukraine could win! 

 Russia had been negotiating since 2008 on the Ukraine/NATO issue  , and the west has doubled down on every step. 

They did not start this war, the west did , by attempting to put NATO forces in Ukraine , Providing NATO weapons and training and conducting joint exercises, 

  I know what you are going to say, everyone who has bought into the US narrative says  the same when they run out of arguments. 

" Ukraine is a Sovereign country and has the right to do what it wants "

Which is true, but what is also true is that Sovereign decisions have consequences . It is true now and it has being true through human history.