Foreigners and their overseas income: what next?

[Yumthai]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

4 hours ago, Dan SG said:

Yes

 

Agree it's going to take balls to start brining a case against the tax authority, but i doubt they have really taken counsel whether the law is in their favour.  I think you're probably giving them too much credit and they're trying to wing it.  See below.  Baker McKenzie (one of the largest law firms) agree that in order to really effect this change they need to change the law which isn't easy

 

https://insightplus.bakermckenzie.com/bm/tax/thailand-offshore-sourced-income-brought-into-thailand-from-1-january-2024-onward-will-be-subject-to-thai-personal-income-tax

Expand  

In bold above....that's not really the issue, albeit I think it would be naive to think the TRD did not take legal guidance before announcing this reinterpretation of the rules, this is not ammateur hour, it's the tax revenue department of a government.

 

The key issue is whether or not the reinterpretation will achieve their objective and that answer is likely to be no, which is why they appear to want to pursue worldwide taxation. Leaving assets outside Thailand semi-permanently will negate the effect of the new rule interpretation.

Thailand can't afford worldwide taxation.

If they really go that route it's not legal guidance they need but economy and financial advice.

[redwood1]

1 hour ago, Yumthai said:

Thailand can't afford worldwide taxation.

If they really go that route it's not legal guidance they need but economy and financial advice.

 

Your Correct..

 

The patient...(The Thai economy) Is already showing signs of sickness because farang investments are drying up in Thailand because of all this tax madness....And as time goes by The patient...(The Thai economy) should get sicker and sicker until the patient (The Thai economy) ends up in the ER....

 

2 things can happen here

 

The Thais continue to double and triple down on all this tax madness until the bloody end and pay a horrible economic price..

 

OR

 

They Give everyone the largest ( It was all a big misunderstanding) they have ever given.....And get Thailand back on a good economic track...

Edited June 30 by redwood1

[Robert Paulson]

On 4/4/2024 at 11:58 AM, Jonathan Swift said:

According to what I’ve read thus far, no. But you may have to file a rax return here. But what if you don’t? How would they find out and track you down? That’s what I wonder. Are they motivated to become the FBI/IRS of Thailand? Do they have the resources to wage tax war against non complying low income expats? Or will it be a matter of so long as you don’t attract attention you stay under the radar?

They don’t enforce <deleted> here, it’s clear as day. Could not be more crystal clear. So no they are not going after anyone. 

[lordgrinz]

13 minutes ago, Robert Paulson said:

They don’t enforce <deleted> here, it’s clear as day. Could not be more crystal clear. So no they are not going after anyone. 

 

Unless you missed it, Thai authorities are cracking down on at least one type of person "farangs", and being that they have a lot more money than a typical farmer.....you can expect them to be very vigilant going after it. Even in my simple tax situation of sending say B1 Million here, then adding that to mine and my wife's tax return would mean paying B245,000 in extra tax. I am sure the RD is drooling over how much more they can strip from taxpayers, especially "farangs".

Edited June 30 by lordgrinz

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, lordgrinz said:

 

Unless you missed it, Thai authorities are cracking down on at least one type of person "farangs", and being that they have a lot more money than a typical famer.....you can expect them to be very vigilant going after it. Even in my simple tax situation of sending say B1 Million here, then adding that to mine and my wife's tax return would mean paying B245,000 in extra tax. I am sure the RD is drooling over how much more they can strip from taxpayers, especially "farangs".

Not especially anyone, pure scaremongering 

[jerrymahoney]

5 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

The key issue is whether or not the reinterpretation will achieve their objective and that answer is likely to be no, which is why they appear to want to pursue worldwide taxation. Leaving assets outside Thailand semi-permanently will negate the effect of the new rule interpretation.

Last week I sat about 2 meters from the US Ambassador to Thailand and, while he said the embassy is currently engaged with the Thai revenue folks as regards the taxing of US citizen remittances to Thailand including DTA issues, there was no definitive information he could give at that time.

[RupertIII]

54 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

 

Your Correct..

 

The patient...(The Thai economy) Is already showing signs of sickness because farang investments are drying up in Thailand because of all this tax madness....And as time goes by The patient...(The Thai economy) should get sicker and sicker until the patient (The Thai economy) ends up in the ER....

 

2 things can happen here

 

The Thais continue to double and triple down on all this tax madness until the bloody end and pay a horrible economic price..

 

OR

 

They Give everyone the largest ( It was all a big misunderstanding) they have ever given.....And get Thailand back on a good economic track...

From an interesting article in the Thai Examiner:-

Capital flight from Thailand is occurring in share sales, bond sales, and among smaller inward investors due to the country’s new foreign taxation drive.

In the meantime, capital has been flowing out of Thailand. This is occurring in both stock and bond markets as well as among smaller investors.

Significantly, there are reports that Thailand’s change in its tax laws, which effectively taxes remittances by both foreigners and Thais, is playing a part in what is looking like a fundamental shift. In effect, both foreigners and Thais are reorganising their affairs.

Unquestionably, this means curtailing remittances to Thailand and using offshore accounts. In addition, because of the new law relating to worldwide taxation, wealthier foreign residents plan to alter their circumstances.

https://www.thaiexaminer.com/thai-news-foreigners/2024/06/28/second-trump-presidency-threatens-further-damage-to-the-baht-the-economy-and-thai-money-markets/

[edwinchester]

40 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

 

Unless you missed it, Thai authorities are cracking down on at least one type of person "farangs", and being that they have a lot more money than a typical farmer.....you can expect them to be very vigilant going after it. Even in my simple tax situation of sending say B1 Million here, then adding that to mine and my wife's tax return would mean paying B245,000 in extra tax. I am sure the RD is drooling over how much more they can strip from taxpayers, especially "farangs".

Not clear from your post but are you adding that million bht to other income because the tax on a million is about 115k bht, less if you're retired.

[lordgrinz]

Just now, edwinchester said:

Not clear from your post but are you adding that million bht to other income because the tax on a million is about 115k bht, less if you're retired.

 

I said in my situation, which when added (B1 Million) to my wife's salary, based on last years taxes, would mean an extra B245,000. She paid only B86,000 last year in taxes for comparison.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

52 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

Unless you missed it, Thai authorities are cracking down on at least one type of person "farangs", and being that they have a lot more money than a typical farmer.....you can expect them to be very vigilant going after it. Even in my simple tax situation of sending say B1 Million here, then adding that to mine and my wife's tax return would mean paying B245,000 in extra tax. I am sure the RD is drooling over how much more they can strip from taxpayers, especially "farangs".

Exactly the point - they are targeting Expats - the new Boss of TRD has specifically stated that Expats have to start contributing.  

PLUS - and this is the big point - if they do 'catch' you in a few years, they will go back to 2024. This is not a 'one off' like a speeding fine. TRD will comb back through all your banking records since 2024 and question where those amounts came from and why did you not lodge a return and pay taxes. 

No they are not going to investigate ordinary Thais.  But they might investigate any Expat whose bank accounts show a large amount of money being deposited/transferred  - and a large amount here would probably be over 500K Baht in any year.  The average salary here is 200K per year, and the majority of Thais earn less than that.

Edited June 30 by TroubleandGrumpy

[jerrymahoney]

6 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

But they might investigate any Expat whose bank accounts show a large amount of money being deposited/transferred  - and a large amount here would probably be over 500K Baht in any year.

Since I do the 65+K baht per month retirement extension regime, I should be easy to find.

[zzzzz]

Thailand
1ST  make ur citizens pay tax!!!

 

[NJHOUSE]

I moved at least 6 million baht to Thailand this year but because of Por No. 162 I will pay no taxes. If you have savings, make sure you download and save your year end statements ending Dec 31, 2023 for when the Revenue Department comes for you just in case.

[lordgrinz]

3 minutes ago, NJHOUSE said:

I moved at least 6 million baht to Thailand this year but because of Por No. 162 I will pay no taxes. If you have savings, make sure you download and save your year end statements ending Dec 31, 2023 for when the Revenue Department comes for you just in case.

 

You're definitely one of my favorite guinea pigs now, keep us up to date on how your taxes go next year.

[andux]

14 minutes ago, NJHOUSE said:

I moved at least 6 million baht to Thailand this year but because of Por No. 162 I will pay no taxes. If you have savings, make sure you download and save your year end statements ending Dec 31, 2023 for when the Revenue Department comes for you just in case.

 

Why would you move 6m baht into Thailand?? That's like a century of living expenses.

Edited June 30 by andux

[TheAppletons]

10 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

 

You're definitely one of my favorite guinea pigs now, keep us up to date on how your taxes go next year.

 

  He won't need to file taxes.  His savings from prior to 1 Jan 2024 are not assessable income.  If one has no assessable income, one does not need to file a tax form.  What's he going to do, file a tax form with a zero in every column?

 

  

[lordgrinz]

Just now, TheAppletons said:

 

  He won't need to file taxes.  His savings from prior to 1 Jan 2024 are not assessable income.  If one has no assessable income, one does not need to file a tax form.  What's he going to do, file a tax form with a zero in every column?  

 

Yes, because B6 million will go unnoticed by RD? I'm waiting to see how people fair when they try that theory.

[TheAppletons]

4 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

 

Yes, because B6 million will go unnoticed by RD? I'm waiting to see how people fair when they try that theory.

 

  Again, it's not assessable income.  RD's rules, not mine.  I'm sure he'll fare quite well.

[lordgrinz]

Just now, TheAppletons said:

 

  Again, it's not assessable income.  RD's rules, not mine.  I'm sure he'll fare quite well.

 

Do you actually believe that people will send in millions and millions of baht in remittance and nobody will question it?

[Robert Paulson]

1 hour ago, lordgrinz said:

 

Unless you missed it, Thai authorities are cracking down on at least one type of person "farangs", and being that they have a lot more money than a typical farmer.....you can expect them to be very vigilant going after it. Even in my simple tax situation of sending say B1 Million here, then adding that to mine and my wife's tax return would mean paying B245,000 in extra tax. I am sure the RD is drooling over how much more they can strip from taxpayers, especially "farangs".

Do what you want. Thais systems are not integrated like we have back home. You don’t get an old fine at the dept of motor vehicles just to renew your license here. 

[lordgrinz]

Just now, Robert Paulson said:

Do what you want. Thais systems are not integrated like we have back home. You don’t get an old fine at the dept of motor vehicles just to renew your license here. 

 

I'm guessing anything sent into a bank account will not go unnoticed, jury is out on debit/credit cards though, that I would agree might be much harder for them to chase down, especially since not all countries are part of CRS reporting. We'll see soon enough.

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, redwood1 said:

 

Your Correct..

 

The patient...(The Thai economy) Is already showing signs of sickness because farang investments are drying up in Thailand because of all this tax madness....And as time goes by The patient...(The Thai economy) should get sicker and sicker until the patient (The Thai economy) ends up in the ER....

 

2 things can happen here

 

The Thais continue to double and triple down on all this tax madness until the bloody end and pay a horrible economic price..

 

OR

 

They Give everyone the largest ( It was all a big misunderstanding) they have ever given.....And get Thailand back on a good economic track...

Do Thai expats in your country have to pay tax on foreign income? 

[Neeranam]

44 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

No they are not going to investigate ordinary Thais.  But they might investigate any Expat whose bank accounts show a large amount of money being deposited/transferred  - and a large amount here would probably be over 500K Baht in any year.  The average salary here is 200K per year, and the majority of Thais earn less than that.

You are paranoid. I am Thai and get much more that 200k a year from abroad and there are many like me. 

They don't care about foreigners with a measly 60k a month coming in, and if you are worried, it is totally unfounded. 

[Neeranam]

9 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

 

I'm guessing anything sent into a bank account will not go unnoticed, jury is out on debit/credit cards though, that I would agree might be much harder for them to chase down, especially since not all countries are part of CRS reporting. We'll see soon enough.

Does WISE deliver ATM cards to Thailand?

 

Yesterday I bought an Ingot of gold with a foreign credit(crypto card that changes my BTC into local currency). I had to pay 3% commission but get 3% cashback on my card.  I did have to show my ID card. I don't know if I have to declare this to the tax man, anyone?

Edited June 30 by Neeranam

[Robert Paulson]

7 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

 

I'm guessing anything sent into a bank account will not go unnoticed, jury is out on debit/credit cards though, that I would agree might be much harder for them to chase down, especially since not all countries are part of CRS reporting. We'll see soon enough.

My theory is, and I realize everyone is diff no problemo, wait until you get a bill from Thailand… which will likely never happen mind you. And then proceed from there. 
 

again just my view not advice 

[lordgrinz]

3 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Does WISE deliver ATM cards to Thailand?

 

No, they sent the debit card to my house in the USA, and I had a family member send it to me here in Thailand.

[lordgrinz]

5 minutes ago, Robert Paulson said:

My theory is, and I realize everyone is diff no problemo, wait until you get a bill from Thailand… which will likely never happen mind you. And then proceed from there. 
 

again just my view not advice 

 

I'm waiting on the guinea pigs first.

[Neeranam]

1 minute ago, lordgrinz said:

 

No, they sent the debit card to my house in the USA, and I had a family member send it to me here in Thailand.

I'll have to look into that, can maybe do the same with my mum in the UK, unless they think I don't live there.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

55 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

I'm guessing anything sent into a bank account will not go unnoticed, jury is out on debit/credit cards though, that I would agree might be much harder for them to chase down, especially since not all countries are part of CRS reporting. We'll see soon enough.

 

On that above point, the managing partner of what I gather is one of the larger expat oriented legal and tax advisory firms in Thailand, MPG, did a YouTube video interview the other day where he opined that ATM withdrawals and credit card spending would NOT count as foreign remittances under the Thai Revenue Department's scheme.

 

I realize there are different and conflicting views on that topic. But I thought it was interesting to hear this guy flatly saying that only foreign transfers into Thai bank accounts would be counted as foreign remittances for taxation purposes.

 

He made those comments at about the 11:45 time point in the video below.

 

Unfortunately, he didn't say -- and wasn't asked -- what his basis was/is for having that particular view/interpretation regarding ATM withdrawals and credit card transactions.

 

 

 

[lordgrinz]

4 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I'll have to look into that, can maybe do the same with my mum in the UK, unless they think I don't live there.

 

I keep my mailing address in the USA, so that's helped. The last mail I had sent here was the most dangerous one yet, had two ATM cards in it, two checks from escrow/insurance refunds on sale of my house, and my new US drivers license. Glad those documents all made it here.....LOL