Clever Finnish man beats the system....or does he?

rumak · April 23

17 minutes ago, oxo1947 said:

Prenups have been in Thailand for many many years--and are probably (if done properly ) the best way to protect assets. They have been around for that long that you dont even have to go to a lawyer now--just buy the package from law firms that specialize in them. https://www.thailandlawonline.com/prenuptial-contract-th-en/prenuptial-contract

All these "BEST LEGAL" ways to do things are only as "best" as the family you marry into , and the moves you make accordingly . Those with success stories almost always use their critical thinking and experience in making good choices. Much more so than those thinking the law or lawyer is on their side.

Many stories on thaivisa if one has a month or two to read them all .............

NorthernRyland · April 23

16 minutes ago, oxo1947 said:

Prenups have been in Thailand for many many years--and are probably (if done properly ) the best way to protect assets. They have been around for that long that you dont even have to go to a lawyer now--just buy the package from law firms that specialize in them. https://www.thailandlawonline.com/prenuptial-contract-th-en/prenuptial-contract

but can it be your asset if the laws prevent foreign ownership? I question they would hold up in court.

NorthernRyland · April 23

22 minutes ago, rumak said:

Maybe best NOT to get married, but get a usufruct (for life) on the title deed (if allowed by the Land office) . uhhhhh like i have

but i have no illusions about what difficulties there would be if i wanted to kick the "owner" of the property off the land 🙂

what he did was kind of sneaky, got the usufruct then married after all the documents were signed. The woman was ok with it apparently. I'mm just curious what would happen in court if they got divorced and contested the house.

rumak · April 23

5 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

I'm giving the wrong impression here. I don't mean Europeans aren't criminal, I simply observe a strong trust in laws within the Europeans (I mean American, Canadian etc... too) when compare to the Thai people.

In the mind of the Finnish guy Jay he has a piece of paper which gives him a sense of security because he believes the system will protect him. Thai people in my observation don't have this same trust because they know there is a corruption in the officials and the paper is only as good the person willing to enforce it, which may never happen.

I've never gone through the legal system in Thailand but I don't trust it because I see the Thai people themselves don't trust their authorities. That's my only point.

be cautious....very cautious . very famous book called " A KILLING SMILE " .

Purdey · April 23

Thais vary, just as they do elsewhere in the world. Some are trustworthy (I have even met some nice, honest policemen here), some should be part of someone else's life, not mine. I the wife signed the usufruct without batting an eye, a good sign. While prenups may be legal, I doubt whether a Thai family would have heard of it and would surely be suspicious (as in, are you trying to cheat my daughter?).

JeffersLos · April 23

37 minutes ago, rumak said:

With the exception of being in control of selling it........

Yes, the Thai on the title deeds will need to agree to sell it.

Without him removing himself from the title deeds it is however useless to them, as they cannot use it without his consent, sell it, rent it, or do anything else to it.

38 minutes ago, rumak said:

"kicking" your legal wife/ husband out without a legal judgement .

With a usufruct on the property the Thai on the title deeds does not have a legal right to cohabit or reside on the property.

NorthernRyland · April 23

2 hours ago, JeffersLos said:

With a usufruct on the property the Thai on the title deeds does not have a legal right to cohabit or reside on the property.

This is where it's questionable to me. For all intensive purpose he owns the house and has full title to it. Is that not against the spirit of the law?

A few weeks ago I saw a story in Chiang Mai where an entire Chinese sub division got busted for fraudulent use of Thai nominee controlled businesses (can't find the link now). If it's so easy to simply to get a usufruct why didn't they just do that? Don't bother making a company or even transfer the land to a new owner.

Simply go to the land office and make a usufruct and now the foreigner has full rights? I wonder if the land office is fudging the law in order to issue these in the first place.

Smokin Joe · April 23

16 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

For all intensive purpose he owns the house

555 Now that's funny

Lacessit · April 23

IMO the best way to have a hassle-free life in Thailand is to ensure one is worth more alive than dead.

I regard marriage to my long-term GF as an unnecessary complication.

simon43 · April 23

3 hours ago, NorthernRyland said:

I'm giving the wrong impression here. I don't mean Europeans aren't criminal, I simply observe a strong trust in laws within the Europeans (I mean American, Canadian etc... too) when compare to the Thai people.

In the mind of the Finnish guy Jay he has a piece of paper which gives him a sense of security because he believes the system will protect him. Thai people in my observation don't have this same trust because they know there is a corruption in the officials and the paper is only as good the person willing to enforce it, which may never happen.

I've never gone through the legal system in Thailand but I don't trust it because I see the Thai people themselves don't trust their authorities. That's my only point.

Another personal example of corruption in the Land Office. Many years ago my ex #2 wanted to borrow some money with the land plot as security. She borrowed privately but a charge was placed on the chanote by the lender and therefore this charge and the loan contract were registered at the Land Office in Phuket. I went along to the office with her.

The loan contract stipulated that the loan had to be repaid in full after 12 months, or the land was forfeit. We both checked the loan contract and then the lender went into an office with the Land Office official, emerging 10 minutes later with the contract to sign. I spotted that the period '12 months' now read '2 months'!! Rather than accusing them of attempted fraud, I politely suggested that their printer had a problem.... They forced a smile and reprinted the contract with the correct term.

Anyway, it actually made no difference, because dopey ex failed to make the payment after 12 months and the land was forfeited! 🙂

balo · April 23

Good luck , he might need it after the divorce.

JeffersLos · April 23

3 hours ago, NorthernRyland said:

Is that not against the spirit of the law?

No, it is the law.

It translates as having the rights to other's fruits.

There is no skirting of the law. The land is 100% owned by a Thai. They just don't have any right to use it after giving a usufruct to someone.

Banana7 · April 23

The Finn should have loaned the money for land and to build the house and registered a mortgage on the house and property, in addition to the usufruct. If things go south with sweety or her family, it will be a horrible place to live with all neighbors who don't like you. At least he can leave and still expect partial recovery of his funds through the mortgage, either periodic payments or a foreclosure. She could make monthly or annual payments on the mortgage, he could return the funds to her, if she is still a good girl.

soi3eddie · April 23

9 hours ago, n00dle said:

usufructs are a very common strategy, but as someone has pointed out, building deep in family territory is just plain stupid as the family can make your life a living hell no matter how many documents you can wave.

My wife (now ex) and I, bought 10 rai of lovely land on the edge of the village in 2004 for 400,000 Baht. My dream and hers, was always to build a nice house. Fast forward 11 years and her behaviour had deteriorated and I'm out. On divorce, it was valued at over 4 million Thai Baht which she accepted as a value on divorce settlement in UK. After the divvy up, she kept ownership of that land. I could not imagine wanting to live there myself with her or her family members all around. The Finnish man may well have the "right" to live on the property, but really, who would want to live there once the realtionship with wife and her family has gone toxic?

SAFETY FIRST · April 23

Crikey, 25yo and 15 Stone, she's a little tubby, hate to see her in 10 years.

rumak · April 24

soi 3 and SRB have "learned" ...... and i guess i have as well .

our comments are not those of "bitter old men" . just maybe trying to give real life

examples , from which we (hopefully) learnt .

don't think any of us will be taking the leap off any tall buildings ...........

rumak · April 24

12 hours ago, NorthernRyland said:

Simply go to the land office and make a usufruct and now the foreigner has full rights? I wonder if the land office is fudging the law in order to issue these in the first place.

Not as simple as "just going to land office" and making a usufruct . They can deny it or charge a fee ( percentage of the land value) .....depending on circumstances and/or their "discretion" .

NR .... you really should consult me ...... my fee is exactly the same as the value most people put on my advice 😅

Sydebolle · April 24

Don't get blended by all that confusing stuff on property and zero rights for non-Thais. It is a fact and still some smarties think they can beat the system. Eventually the non-Thais will lose ...... always.

What you can secure is the financial interest in property with complicated legal paperwork on financing a loan for the property. But it will take time to force the land title owner to sell the property and pay you back.

As a 60+ years old geezer you should seriously consider renting only; an idiot of a neighbour, too close to a temple or a 7/11 or a motorbike repair shop, smells from the fermented-fish-factory or any other inconvenience = pack your stuff and move elsewhere without a financial impact ........ Irrespective what the beauty of night might try to tell you which is - in most cases - only in HER interest. As blood is thicker than water - specially in Thailand - you will get her entire family breathing down your neck on the subject. Avoid that by saying "no have money" and you're sorted.

Wrwest · April 24

19 hours ago, freeworld said:

Prenups are part of the Civil code in Thailand

"Prenuptial agreements in Thailand, as a pre-marriage contract, are specifically governed by sections 1465 to 1469 of the Thailand Civil Code"

As usual ... depends. I had Thai Attorney draw up both a will and Prenup (which he said would be attached to the marriage registration). Got to the office to register the marriage and the official said ... No, it is against Thai Marriage Law. Would not budge.

Expat68 · April 24

I have half a ream of signed paperwork by the Tessabarn to say if my wife dies before me they can't kick me out of the house also the yearly tax on my house is my name solely on the property (not the land)

NorthernRyland · April 24

9 hours ago, soi3eddie said:

Fast forward 11 years and her behaviour had deteriorated and I'm out. On divorce, it was valued at over 4 million Thai Baht which she accepted as a value on divorce settlement in UK.

You had to give her 100% of the value of the land? Maybe that allowed you to keep your house the UK though...

NorthernRyland · April 24

32 minutes ago, Expat68 said:

I have half a ream of signed paperwork by the Tessabarn to say if my wife dies before me they can't kick me out of the house also the yearly tax on my house is my name solely on the property (not the land)

This seems more reasonable to me and likely to be enforced by a court. however, eventually you do need to transfer for it to living person I would imagine. So long as the family doesn't inherit the property while you're still in it and they kick you out before you can sell it etc...

NorthernRyland · April 24

10 hours ago, soi3eddie said:

in 2004 for 400,000 Baht. My dream and hers, was always to build a nice house. Fast forward 11 years and her behaviour had deteriorated and I'm out. On divorce, it was valued at over 4 millio

and btw, what do you account for this 10x price increase in 11 years? I think land in Thailand may be in a bubble fueled by debt, which has largely peaked as people are so indebted today. It's not worth 40 million now is it? 2004 = 400k, 2015 = 4 mil, 2025 = 40 mil??

Expat68 · April 24

5 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

and btw, what do you account for this 10x price increase in 11 years? I think land in Thailand may be in a bubble fueled by debt, which has largely peaked as people are so indebted today. It's not worth 40 million now is it? 2004 = 400k, 2015 = 4 mil, 2025 = 40 mil??

I live in Issaan and was told by another Thai that people from Bangkok are buying land, which is forcing the price up