New Tax Rules for Expats in Thailand Spark Concern

[Mike Lister]

20 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

Actually you did imply it.Capability exists for a huge range of actions but one should focus on the credible ones.

 

 

Actually I did not, actually you interpreted it as such, I merely gave a statement of fact.

[Danderman123]

7 minutes ago, WilliamSmits said:

I send all needed money to my wife each month. She is registered as "farmer" in Isaan and we live in Bangkok.

The idea of paying tax never occurred to her.

Who is worried? Or are it just tax "advisors" making us worried?

Lots of Thais don't pay taxes.

 

They also don't transfer cash into Thailand from other countries.

[Peterphuket]

52 minutes ago, bigt3116 said:

 

Not much use for all those retirees that keep the 800k in a separate account, and if immigration ask " that is my only account officer, my wife supports me/i live off the cash savings I brought with me 10 years ago".

 

You can also do that 800k another way, if you use an agent, you don't need to have 800k in that account at all.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, J Branche said:

6 PAGES Of Random Useless Chatter

Thai Revenue Department is the Official Tax Authority in Thailand rd.go.th

Go here https://www.rd.go.th/21/page-2.html click on 21 November 2023 document titled

"Questions - Answers about paying personal income tax according to Section 41, paragraph two, of the Revenue Code"

"The provisions of paragraph one shall not apply to assessable income arising before the date 1 January 2024"

Also known as Order P.162 /2023 signed by Director General of the Revenue Department

 

Supporting documentation in English,

Google. thai revenue department FOREIGNERS_PAY_TAX2024.pdf

 

Dual Tax Agreements and Treaties 

 

The US and other Tax Agreements are Still Enforce and should be complied with.

 

US Tax Agreement PDF Page 23

ARTICLE 20

Pensions and Social Security Payments

 1. Subject to the provisions of paragraph 2 of Article 21 (Government Service), pensions and other similar remuneration paid to a resident of a Contracting State in consideration of past employment shall be taxable only in that State.

 2. Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 1, social security benefits and other similar public pensions paid by a Contracting State to a resident of the other Contracting State or a citizen of the United States shall be taxable only in the first-mentioned State.

 

If THIS information from Official sources is Not Accurate, Please share the email from the Thai Revenue Department stating otherwise.

 

Took me 20 minutes to find this information on Official Websites.

 

Tax Agreements are still Enforced.

Thai Revenue Department is the Official Tax Authority in THAILAND

 

The member who suggested it wasn't, had his post removed and is, er, resting currently.

[HappyExpat57]

22 minutes ago, worrab said:

But as I have stated elsewhere in this topic, what if you do not need to file a tax return?? There are those who would not need to.

As I stated earlier, each immigration office is a fiefdom unto themselves. Even though the TM-30 regulations have changed, my immigration office damned near requires a new TM-30 every time I sneeze.

[Danderman123]

45 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

 

No taxation without representation. 

Tell that to Immigrants in your home country who can't vote, but have to pay taxes.

[HappyExpat57]

23 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Immigration has to care how many days a person spends in Thailand, if it's under 180 days, they are not tax resident and don't need to file a tax return.

Try telling that to MY immigration office. They follow their own rules and I am required to jump through unneccessary hoops each and every extension.

[saintdomingo]

6 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The member asked me how so I explained and I did say, theoretically. What are we supposed to do, ignore members questions and hide behind a bush!

Mike I am expecting to transfer in approx, 600,000 baht to pay for hospital treatment (my status is extension of permission to stay based on non-O Retirement) any likelihood they would give tax relief on this.

Yes I know, my fault for not having it here in the first place.

[atpeace]

There will be no impact for 99% foreigners is my bet.  This article is just click bait and it worked.  If you are a tax resident and do have income that isn't covered by tax agreements and as well have never paid taxes on the income then taxes should be paid .  Some xpats here aren't paying taxes in Thailand nor their home country.  They probably still won't claim the income and won't face any consequences.  My hope is they do.

 

One inconvenience is that IMO we will have to file which is a hassle but not  unfair.  At least AN posters might stop bickering about the easy 90 day reports and realize just how good we have it here in regards to visa regs.  Most countries already require this and Thailand is now one of those countries.  It will be bumpy during the rollout but confident the rev department will figure it out.

[KannikaP]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I read a post today that said many foreigners in the rural villages, still don't know about the tax rule change and I suspect it's true. Unfortunately for those who do know, articles such as these are going to need to be repeated constantly, if the message is to get out to more people.  

Do foreigners in rural villages not have internet/AN contact? I do !

[Mike Lister]

Just now, saintdomingo said:

Mike I am expecting to transfer in approx, 600,000 baht to pay for hospital treatment (my status is extension of permission to stay based on non-O Retirement) any likelihood they would give tax relief on this.

Yes I know, my fault for not having it here in the first place.

It depends on the source of the 600k and whether it is assessable income or not. If it is pre 2024 savings, it's tax free. But there is no tax relief on medical bill payments I'm afraid.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

I just had a thought, well actually discussing another topic with the wife the other day about the SIM card issue, i.e. the government wanting your name to match up with your Bank App, e.g. mine doesn't as I purchased it over a decade ago over the counter when names weren't required and have left it like that.

 

That now having to change, my wife said, ok put your name to it when they give you notice, but not beforehand.

 

I think I might have found a way around this potential tax issue, i.e. as wife suggested yesterday, she will buy a new SIM in her name and open an account in her name, I then transfer money from abroad to her new account when I need to, i.e. once a year and access my account with her SIM.

 

Some might argue that she can get another SIM and clean the account out, yeh, nah, that would be bread crumbs for the wind fall she will receive when I am gone and so far in the 2 decades we have been together, she hasn't done me wrong, so I CAN trust her, albeit it, I still sleep with one eye open 😍

 

The other alternative is when I am back in my old country next year, bring in a heap of cash, and exchange it here when I need it, should bring back enough to last me for the next 3 years, that should sort it 

 

Any thoughts on this ?

My thoughts are you're discussing tax evasion which is against the rules.

[ExpatOilWorker]

5 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I don't know how it works for others but every time I get a new passport, I have to get my stamps carried across and the Immi system is updated with the new numbers. And when I get a new passport, I have to register the number with my banks, they are pretty hot on that score and wont let me transact using an unregistered passport number....I know this from experience two years ago.

That is all true, in a perfect world.

But over the past 20 years, I left Thailand for extended periods a couple of times. Jumped from one type of visa to another, whatever was easiest at the time. There is zero continuation and since my name even contains a letter that is not in the English alphabet, it is sometimes spelled different, even with the banks, let alone when translated to Thai.

A paper trail chaos, that the RD had no chance or resources to unravel. 

[Danderman123]

2 minutes ago, atpeace said:

There will be no impact for 99% foreigners is my bet.  This article is just click bait and it worked.  If you are a tax resident and do have income that isn't covered by tax agreements and as well have never paid taxes on the income then taxes should be paid .  Some xpats here aren't paying taxes in Thailand nor their home country.  They probably still won't claim the income and won't face any consequences.  My hope is they do.

 

One inconvenience is that IMO we will have to file which is a hassle but not  unfair.  At least AN posters might stop bickering about the easy 90 day reports and realize just how good we have it here in regards to visa regs.  Most countries already require this and Thailand is now one of those countries.  It will be bumpy during the rollout but confident the rev department will figure it out.

"There will be no impact for 99% foreigners"

 

+

 

"we will have to file which is a hassle but not  unfair.  "

 

Please make up your minds.

[Derek B]

2 hours ago, Robbie2618 said:

The only income the Thai authorities would know about is what's in your local bank account that you show on visa renewal. 

If you maintain 800K for the purposes of visa renewal you are not actually showing any Thai income except interest accrued.

 

If you go the 65K per month route that income is already spent 100% in the "village" economy so to speak. The resultant "village" income will drop by the tax deducted which will go to central government coffers and will not be returned directly to the local economy. So effectiviely there is no levelling up with the locals only a net decline. I good vote loser policy it seems.

 

No matter what you will have to declare your global income I expect once you are given a Thai Tax ID number.

 

Until the dust settles limit your days incountry to 179 then leave until 2025 and only bring cash into Thailand.

 

Note: Some tax authorities have a general definition of 180 days that being for example in any continuous period of 365 days over successive tax years if 180 days are spent in country you would be a tax resident.

 

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

Do foreigners in rural villages not have internet/AN contact? I do !

Only a small percentage of the expat population follows AN.

[4MyEgo]

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

My thoughts are you're discussing tax evasion which is against the rules.

 

My apologies, I don't see it as tax evasion, suffice to say it's not illegal to send money to my wife's account, or bring cash into the country is it.

 

If the wife doesn't declare it, that's her problem....LOL

 

I say that respectfully, not picking a fight.

 

[dlclark97]

Whatever the outcome, one problem I foresee is that many Americans have not been able to complete their USA Income Tax Returns due often to late arrival to complete their tax returns.  The tax due date in the USA traditionally is April 15th but persons living overseas have an automatic 60-day extension (if requested).  Tax preparers in Thailand go by these dates so no one will know by March 15th what tax has already been paid in their home country.

[J Branche]

1 hour ago, Presnock said:

As a matter of fact based on forum members' reports (yeah how reliable is that?) even the local RD folks have not been briefed on ANYTHING at all about this and the possible ramifications of such activity so since the 180 day residency is quickly approaching, it would seem rather necessary for something official should be aired for those possibly affected as many not to be affected may leave early before any possible effect other than to have Thailand lose monies instead of gaining any.  Just saying...

Stop confusing people and spreading misinformation.

 

The information has been available since September 2023,

Thai Revenue Department is the Official Tax Authority in Thailand   rd.go.th
Go here https://www.rd.go.th/21/page-2.html click on 21 November 2023 document also know as Order P. 162/2023  signed by the Director General of the Thai Revenue Department (This document was posted in Thai Only)  Google Translate will translate PDF to many different languages 

 

Additional Reference 

Google. thai revenue department FOREIGNERS_PAY_TAX2024.pdf

 

US Tax Treaty Reference 

PDF Page 23

 

US Tax Agreement PDF Page 23

ARTICLE 20

Pensions and Social Security Payments

 1. Subject to the provisions of paragraph 2 of Article 21 (Government Service), pensions and other similar remuneration paid to a resident of a Contracting State in consideration of past employment shall be taxable only in that State.

 2. Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 1, social security benefits and other similar public pensions paid by a Contracting State to a resident of the other Contracting State or a citizen of the United States shall be taxable only in the first-mentioned State.

 

If THIS information from Official sources is Not Accurate, Please share the email from the Thai Revenue Department stating otherwise.

[lordgrinz]

57 minutes ago, wensiensheng said:

So if I live off my capital and don’t bring any income in to Thailand, or earn any income here, do I still need to fill in a tax return? 
 

no taxable income to declare will be a nil return if so

 

You mean you don't have any of this capital in interest bearing accounts, the stockmarket, real estate rentals, etc.?

[Muhendis]

5 hours ago, webfact said:

Despite the challenges, proper planning and professional advice will be crucial in navigating this new landscape.

This is what this post is all about.

If you can do your own tax for in your home country, you can also do the Thai tax form yourself.

It's in English.

The numbers to search for on google are PND 90 for personal tax and PND 91 for employment tax.

I have attached the forms below.

There may be others and/or updated versions so before you complete your form it would be a good idea to do a search.

PND90.pdf PND91.pdf

[Danderman123]

4 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

Do foreigners in rural villages not have internet/AN contact? I do !

How well informed about the new tax rules are the other Farangs in your village?

[Mike Lister]

Just now, 4MyEgo said:

 

My apologies, I don't see it as tax evasion, suffice to say it's not illegal to send money to my wife's account, or bring cash into the country is it.

 

I say that respectfully, not picking a fight.

You might be able to use Gift Tax to gift money legally to your wife, that would have a similar effect. Those funds would then become Sin suan tua or property of only your wife.

[Adventurer1]

More bull<deleted> so called news

[saintdomingo]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

It depends on the source of the 600k and whether it is assessable income or not. If it is pre 2024 savings, it's tax free. But there is no tax relief on medical bill payments I'm afraid.

Thanks for that, it is pre 2024 savings. Hope I can prove it to their satisfaction.

The tax relief was a vain hope, belt and braces style. Thanks again.

[Derek B]

2 hours ago, WingFat said:

While I sympathize with those who will find this a challenge to pay Thai taxes, the saying of "there's no free lunch" comes to mind. And the argument that these people contribute to the Thai economy in other ways, well, so does everyone else.

The folk I support here in Thailand are ALL in the grey economy and pay no income taxes whilst still having a vote. They will loose out to the value of any Thai tax I pay.

 

2 hours ago, Robbie2618 said:

The only income the Thai authorities would know about is what's in your local bank account that you show on visa renewal. 

If you maintain 800K for the purposes of visa renewal you are not actually showing any Thai income except interest accrued.

 

If you go the 65K per month route that income is already spent 100% in the "village" economy so to speak. The resultant "village" income will drop by the tax deducted which will go to central government coffers and will not be returned directly to the local economy. So effectiviely there is no levelling up with the locals only a net decline. I good vote loser policy it seems.

 

No matter what you will have to declare your global income I expect once you are given a Thai Tax ID number.

 

Until the dust settles limit your days incountry to 179 then leave until 2025 and only bring cash into Thailand.

 

Note: Some tax authorities have a general definition of 180 days that being for example in any continuous period of 365 days over successive tax years if 180 days are spent in country you would be a tax resident.

 

[gravia]

maybe this is another points on your licence, or many other schemes I have heard about over the last 20 years  None of which seem to happen. ? hopefully this to will fizzle out . if not and the the powers that be  link it to ones visa  show min income 

[Danderman123]

4 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

My apologies, I don't see it as tax evasion, suffice to say it's not illegal to send money to my wife's account, or bring cash into the country is it.

 

If the wife doesn't declare it, that's her problem....LOL

 

I say that respectfully, not picking a fight.

 

You must declare cash brought into Thailand, above $10,000 or so.

[Aussie999]

If on a visa, aren't we still technically a visitor, unless making an income, in Thailand, how can they tax visitors. 

[Danderman123]

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

You might be able to use Gift Tax to gift money legally to your wife, that would have a similar effect. Those funds would then become Sin suan tua or property of only your wife.

And her Kik, if she has one.