Thailand to tax residents’ foreign income irrespective of remittance

[Neeranam]

5 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

The only way you avoid taxes is death, and even then they tax you, no such thing as "just lay low" when the taxman cometh.

Very true but volunteering your information might be a bit foolish. If I were a foreign retiree, for example, I would do nothing until immigration made it a requirement, which btw I doubt they will do. 

[EVENKEEL]

9 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Just stay low, don't file and they will leave you alone. 

My sentiment exactly. I bring in excess of 1.5 mil/yr which I think is good money but in reality I'm just a tiny, tiny fish in a sea of way larger fish. No need to poke the bear.

[lordgrinz]

4 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Very true but volunteering your information might be a bit foolish. If I were a foreign retiree, for example, I would do nothing until immigration made it a requirement, which btw I doubt they will do. 

 

Well, until they state what is acceptable proof of savings, it would be better not to send anything. I don't believe in the, just ignore it until they come looking approach.

Edited June 7 by lordgrinz

[EVENKEEL]

3 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Very true but volunteering your information might be a bit foolish. If I were a foreign retiree, for example, I would do nothing until immigration made it a requirement, which btw I doubt they will do. 

Should that day come when immigration is involved, I'll seek the help of an agent.

[Neeranam]

13 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Should that day come when immigration is involved, I'll seek the help of an agent.

Good point - many already use agents to stay here illegally, ie without the necessary funds in the bank. In my 3 decades here they have often thrown hurdles to overcome, to find out there are agents and others to guide you around said hurdles. 

[Presnock]

3 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

Not sure of the relevance of your comment. Thailand is already in CRS. I believe they are contemplating applying to join OECD at this stage. I guess they are far from meeting the requirements and can’t see what benefits would accrue to an economy stuck in the middle income trap with no obvious route out - GDP growing well below the rate of developed countries and regional neighbors, a hopeless public education system despite massive budgets, years of incompetent economic management, massive corruption at all levels and a flawed democracy with a tendency to military coups that can ignore the result of general elections and appoint convicted felons to the cabinet and allow one to control it from behind the scenes while still on probation.

looking at the qualifications for membership in the OECD it appears to me that most of what you wrote above will disqualify them anyway...guess that is why they are thinking about joining BRICS this fall as they hope to snuggle up close to XI and PUTIN who would welcome them with open arms.

[bg53]

2 hours ago, jonclark said:

 

Filing income tax is a breeze - No accountant needed - 

 

 

Good luck to you if/when Thailand's PIT changes from a territorial basis to a worldwide basis.

[Presnock]

13 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

A practical idea but I doubt they could get their minds around that because they have to base everything on what is in the Revenue Code from which that would be a huge departure.  They would also think there are people with income massively above that they wouldn't want to let off the hook.  The UK introduced something like that for non-doms who are foreigners living in the UK with exemption from overseas income.  They told them they could either go on to full UK global tax or pay a flat rate of tax on  a notional quite high income which meant they didn't have to file anything else, except on remittances.   But the non-dom scheme has all but been blown up by the Sunak government.  

 

Essentially the reality is that they are not going to carve out exceptions for a group of foreigners they consider to be making only a marginal contribution.  If they do, it will be along the line of the LTR visa to attract multimillionaires and then change the rules on them a couple of years later. 

Multimillionaires?  I think there are a lot fewer than you and the rest of the AN think.  I only have a US govt pension so the taxes that could be avoided via the LTR are a moot point anyway because of the DTA with the US.  If the Thais decided to wipe out all the treaties that have been

worked out between Thailand and those 60 or 61 other countries, they by international law have to advise those countries in advance that they

wish to do this.  Then if they followed through they would have a difficult time getting any treaty signed with a foreign country for anything unless of course they follow this route and join BRICS in the fall.  The LTR on last count hardly has enough expats to help the revenue dept meet their goals anyway.  Any mulitmillionaires on an LTR would just cease to be a tax resident here or elsewherever they wanted.  In the long run, any changes that are made to the tax laws against expats will IMHO cause a decrease in the funds collected by the Revenue Department as it will probably already show a drop from 2024.

[Presnock]

12 hours ago, gearbox said:

Here is your guide...pick up a country.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_taxation

 

From what I see Malaysia will tax remitted foreign income under certain conditions. The Philippines seems to remain the only comparable country around which doesn't tax foreigners who are tax residents. There are quite a few countries without income tax, and also many with only territorial taxes, but I wouldn't live permanently in any of them.

Yes, most of ASEAN were signatories on the OECD agreement of July 2023 and some are going through this same exercise.

[jayboy]

1 hour ago, lordgrinz said:

 

What do they want to see as acceptable proof of funds being savings only? Do we still need to file a tax return for remittance of these non-assessable funds (savings) we've sent? I would hate to just ignore filing a tax return, then one day have RD question millions of baht being sent into the country, then have them not accept whatever proof I feel is acceptable, but they don't.

 

It's a good question.On the other hand the Thai tax return is an honour system in which the taxpayer takes the initiative.I don't think the RD will be chasing resident non working expatriates.As to proof of funds there will be many approaches.Above all keep careful records.In my case I have accounts with two different foreign banks, one of which is now exclusively reserved for pre-2024 savings.

[lordgrinz]

5 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

It's a good question.On the other hand the Thai tax return is an honour system in which the taxpayer takes the initiative.I don't think the RD will be chasing resident non working expatriates.As to proof of funds there will be many approaches.Above all keep careful records.In my case I have accounts with two different foreign banks, one of which is now exclusively reserved for pre-2024 savings.

 

Yeah, but will anyone in Thai RD accept the records? Do they need to be stamped by your embassy, then translated to Thai, and then stamped by MFA before anyone accepts it? And with the US Embassy, they won't stamp any financial documents from the USA, so then what? Like I said, we really need some definitive answers from the Thai RD.

[jayboy]

7 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

 

Yeah, but will anyone in Thai RD accept the records? Do they need to be stamped by your embassy, then translated to Thai, and then stamped by MFA before anyone accepts it? And with the US Embassy, they won't stamp any financial documents from the USA, so then what? Like I said, we really need some definitive answers from the Thai RD.

 

I think with respect you are over worrying about this.Credible records will be accepted, and in all likelihood taxpayer's submissions will be accepted without scrutiny.WEeare talking about retired expats not working in Thailand.

[lordgrinz]

5 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

I think with respect you are over worrying about this.Credible records will be accepted, and in all likelihood taxpayer's submissions will be accepted without scrutiny.WEeare talking about retired expats not working in Thailand.

 

Every time I have dealt with "credible records" from overseas used in Thailand, they have needed special care as-in......Embassy/MFA stamps, translations, and signatures from multiple parties. I'm not taking any chances, especially after past experience with Thai bureaucracy.

[jonclark]

1 hour ago, bg53 said:

 

Good luck to you if/when Thailand's PIT changes from a territorial basis to a worldwide basis.

 

What has luck got to do with it

 

Bottom line - if you currently work in Thailand and pay taxes on that income - keep your mouth shut about overseas income and maintain a plausible story that your income in Thailand is your only income and they will leave you alone. 

 

 

[bg53]

1 minute ago, jonclark said:

if you currently work in Thailand and pay taxes on that income - keep your mouth shut about overseas income

 

A. Those who pay zero or negligible Thai taxes will take a huge hit with the low tax threshold. Many non-O people in that category.

B. Keep your mouth shut about overseas income? Good luck with the paperwork when CRS kicks in.

[Sheryl]

3 hours ago, jonclark said:

 

Filing income tax is a breeze - No accountant needed - although they will have to start printing .91 forms in English as they are all in Thai at the moment and most staff at tax offices have a very basic understanding of English. But it is a breeze. Getting tax rebates is also a doddle - my tax office fills in all the necessary bits for me if I give them the correct supporting documents, and a couple of months later my cheque turns up for 40 - 50k.  Remember if you pay tax you can now claim all the rebates the government offers - including hotel rooms and household appliances as these are frequently made tax deductibles depending on how the government wants to boost the economy by increasing consumption. Even healthcare has been a tax deductible which should help pensioners.

 

A breeze only if you pay no taxes in your home country and all your income (or, for current tax year,  income  earned in, or remitted to, Thailand) is assessable.

 

The current forms will have to be revised to include way to claim credit for foreign taxes paid.

 

And then there is the very much unresolved question of whether and how to show foreign sourced income that is non-assessable under terms of a DTA. 

 

I would not at all count on RD staff, especially upcountry, to be familiar with these issues. 

 

 

[lordgrinz]

11 minutes ago, bg53 said:

 

A. Those who pay zero or negligible Thai taxes will take a huge hit with the low tax threshold. Many non-O people in that category.

B. Keep your mouth shut about overseas income? Good luck with the paperwork when CRS kicks in.

 

I think some people are under the assumption that the Thai RD are required prove you've done your due diligence, things don't work that way in real life, its up to us to prove what we say, not them to prove us wrong. 

[Yumthai]

13 minutes ago, bg53 said:

Good luck with the paperwork when CRS kicks in.

CRS kicks in only with offshore accounts registered with Thai residence address.

[ChaiyaTH]

On 6/6/2024 at 6:30 AM, buriram39 said:

What exchange rates will they use? The whole thing is ludicrous.

Never even thought about that part yet lol.

[Sheryl]

21 minutes ago, bg53 said:

 

A. Those who pay zero or negligible Thai taxes will take a huge hit with the low tax threshold. Many non-O people in that category.

B. Keep your mouth shut about overseas income? Good luck with the paperwork when CRS kicks in.

Agree.

 

Everyone makes their own choices but I would certainly not advise anyone to try to conceal assessable income. Could come back to bite you badly. 

 

For this current tax year 2024 only money remitted into Thailand matters. Best option is not to remit any assessable income if possible. Only savings or income exempt under your specific DTA. If you must remit assessable  income try to keep it under the tax threshold if you can.

 

For tax year 2025, all bets may be off if the proposed legislation goes through.  Good idea to start estimating what your future Thai tax burden might be, especially if you do not pay taxes in your home country. 

 

 

 

[ChaiyaTH]

13 hours ago, shdmn said:

None of the whiners are going anywhere.  They just like to huff and puff (and whine) about everything. They have nowhere else go because if they did they would have left a long time ago.  I remember many years ago everyone was saying they were going to Cambodia because Thailand was getting too expensive and visa hassles blah blah.  Same old same old.  I would say less than 1% actually did and of those, probably 99% moved back.

I think you don't really get the point at all. What you are speaking about; is people who always complained about visa issues. The visa issue is now soon to be resolved.

The new issue now, actually gets to people, who make very decent money, and do have plenty of options to live anywhere on the world. Specially if they would be taxed.

 

You are comparing apples with pears here. I would need to pay like 1K USD in taxes, to then still pay my Thai rent and a International school. All that money combined, could make me rent anywhere on the planet, knowing that in most expensive countries the public schools are fine too. Is like 2.5K USD.

 

It makes Thailand like as expensive as Monaco is for a family with 2 children in Inter schools + being taxed. Maybe that is overkill example but close.

Edited June 7 by ChaiyaTH

[Neeranam]

28 minutes ago, bg53 said:

 

A. Those who pay zero or negligible Thai taxes will take a huge hit with the low tax threshold. Many non-O people in that category.

B. Keep your mouth shut about overseas income? Good luck with the paperwork when CRS kicks in.

Until I know more, I'm going to be sending funds from abroad directly to my children, wo are at high school and university here in Thailand. I might send to my wife too, but I don't want her knowing exactly how much I get as it could affect my golfing trips

[ChaiyaTH]

1 minute ago, Neeranam said:

Until I know more, I'm going to be sending funds from abroad directly to my children, wo are at high school and university here in Thailand. I might send to my wife too, but I don't want her knowing exactly how much I get as it could affect my golfing trips

The latter was my issue too, i can send here some of it, but not all, she would start complaining lol.

[Sheryl]

48 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

 

Every time I have dealt with "credible records" from overseas used in Thailand, they have needed special care as-in......Embassy/MFA stamps, translations, and signatures from multiple parties. I'm not taking any chances, especially after past experience with Thai bureaucracy.

You will not be required to submit these records with your tax return.

 

You will need them only if your return is questioned, which most are not. You should certainly have supporting records  just in case but no need to worry now about translations  certifications etc which may not (probably will mot) even be requested. 

 

I had one experience with my local RD when I filed a return to claim back witholding on interest in a Thai bank (stopped doing that afterwards as not worth the hassle).

 

Got called into the RD who  demanded to know what income I had/where from, obviously thinking I must be working in Thailand.  I brought in a stack of credit advices and copies of my bank book to show I was living on remittances from abroad and told them I was retired and living on my savings.  Had to work up the ladder to a supervisor as staff had never heard of a retirement visa  and were convinced a retired farang can not live in Thailand, but eventually got someone who knew otherwise. Ultimately they let me go. At no point was I asked for any US documents or to get anything certified, it was more that they needed plausible answers. I might have been asked to sign som3thing, don't remember.

[Lorry]

1 hour ago, lordgrinz said:

Do they need to be stamped by your embassy, then translated to Thai, and then stamped by MFA before anyone accepts it?

That's the obvious way, and you can be sure some RD offices will want all this. 

Other RD offices have told taxpayers translation into English would be enough,  no stamps needed.

 

You will get answers not earlier than mid 2025, when the first batch of foreigners hs filed taxes and the RD will brood over it.

[Sheryl]

23 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

CRS kicks in only with offshore accounts registered with Thai residence address.

I would not count on that. 

[lordgrinz]

5 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

You will not be required to submit these records with your tax return.

 

You will need them only if your return is questioned, which most are not. You should certainly have supporting records  just in case but no need to worry now about translations  certifications etc which may not (probably will mot) even be requested. 

 

I had one experience with my local RD when I filed a return to claim back witholding on interest in a Thai bank (stopped doing that afterwards as not worth the hassle).

 

Got called into the RD who  demanded to know what income I had/where from, obviously thinking I must be working in Thailand.  I brought in a stack of credit advices and copies of my bank book to show I was living on remittances from abroad and told them I was retired and living on my savings.  Had to work up the ladder to a supervisor as staff had never heard of a retirement visa  and were convinced a retired farang can not live in Thailand, but eventually got someone who knew otherwise. Ultimately they let me go. At no point was I asked for any US documents or to get anything certified, it was more that they needed plausible answers. I might have been asked to sign som3thing, don't remember.

 

I wouldn't even want to get to that point, which is why we need clear guidance before sending money. If it's in black and white, and they state what is acceptable evidence of savings beforehand, then so be it, but ambiguity? No way I am stepping into that hornets nest, especially here.

Edited June 7 by lordgrinz

[freeworld]

7 hours ago, AreYouGerman said:

 

Or just go to the Philippines. They still have territorial tax regime for foreigners in place.

See the news

 

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2024-06-05/police-officers-in-the-philippines-arrested-for-kidnapping-tourists-demanding-ransom

[lordgrinz]

9 minutes ago, Lorry said:

That's the obvious way, and you can be sure some RD offices will want all this. 

Other RD offices have told taxpayers translation into English would be enough,  no stamps needed.

 

You will get answers not earlier than mid 2025, when the first batch of foreigners has filed taxes and the RD will brood over it.

 

Which is why I am waiting on the sidelines, I have over $30,000 sitting in a Wise account waiting to be sent over as baht, will grow it to about $100,000 soon, but at least its earning 4.85%, so I'll let it sit for now.....also waiting on my Wise debit card to arrive, thought that might be a way to buy things without worrying about remittance, but that sounds like it won't work the way I planned, so I'm kind of stuck on the sidelines waiting for answers.

[Lorry]

8 minutes ago, freeworld said:

See the news

 

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2024-06-05/police-officers-in-the-philippines-arrested-for-kidnapping-tourists-demanding-ransom

Nice to know

Edited June 7 by Lorry