Thailand to tax residents’ foreign income irrespective of remittance

[JimGant]

5 hours ago, Confuscious said:

So, Thailand will refer to the income in your bank account for their taxes claim?
Your income, but also every amount that is put in your bank account as a gift, donation, etc.?
Crazy

Nope, just numbers with a 1099 (US, or foreign eqivalent) delineating income. Other cash flow will not be considered income. Thailand may get final income numbers, when you do you 1040 tax return -- and include income from self-assessment. But right now, it doesn't appear FATCA reporting of US income involves reporting a 1040 tax return. Reporting worldwide income to Thailand should be similar to doing your US 1040, with exceptions for income excluded via DTA. Income not subject to 1099s or W2s could be ignored, if you'd like to cheat.

[Confuscious]

36 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Nope, just numbers with a 1099 (US, or foreign eqivalent) delineating income. Other cash flow will not be considered income. Thailand may get final income numbers, when you do you 1040 tax return -- and include income from self-assessment. But right now, it doesn't appear FATCA reporting of US income involves reporting a 1040 tax return. Reporting worldwide income to Thailand should be similar to doing your US 1040, with exceptions for income excluded via DTA. Income not subject to 1099s or W2s could be ignored, if you'd like to cheat.

The numbers you quote are TAX-Form numbers.
I was referring to my bank account.
My bank account shows the monthly deposit of my pension (= monthly income with tax already deducted), but also other deposits like refunds from my health care provider / refunds of the taxman / etc.
These are not income as it is a refund on money that was already paid by me.
If the Thai IRS will use my bank account to calculate the taxes rather than my tax declaration, it will include several deposits that are not an income.

[JimGant]

14 minutes ago, Confuscious said:

If the Thai IRS will use my bank account to calculate the taxes rather than my tax declaration, it will include several deposits that are not an income.

I would assume the reporting mechanism would be sophisticated enough to ferret out income from other cash flows. Otherwise, it would just be a train wreck.

[SiamAndy]

10 hours ago, redwood1 said:

Folks I will tell you what the real problem is...

 

Thailand needs to look up the meaning of the word retirement in the dictionary...

 

Withdrawal from one's occupation or position, especially upon reaching a certain age. b. The age at which one withdraws from work and lives off their savings and or a pension....

EXP... I'm looking forward to having and living a peaceful retirement in the last years of my life.... 

 

Thailand changing visa requirements at the drop of a hat as they love to do .....Is very far from adding peace to expats retirement...

 

After you retire you only have so many years left on this Earth.....And Thailand seems determined to make sure retired expats last years are in a state of visa chaos....

 

Not to mention how wrong it is to even suggest trying extract tax money from retired non working folks , most who live off fixed incomes....

 

Thailand a retirement destination ???

 

 

Exactly, Thailand is always trying to move the goal posts with visa rule or reporting changes and now with taxes. For any prospective people looking to retire to Thailand, I say run far away and find another country to retire to, you won't find peace of mind here due to a constantly meddling Thai government.

[OJAS]

On 6/19/2024 at 4:06 PM, Presnock said:

DTA treaties deleted

 

If the Thai government were ever minded to unilaterally ditch DTA's, then they had better IMHO brace themselves for swift retaliatory action from our home country governments, in the form of travel bans and the freezing of Thai assets held in our home countries, much like those which were imposed on Putin and various Russian oligarghs in the wake of his Ukrainian "special military operation". Once Thai hiso's with sizeable frozen assets in our home countries start squealing like stuck pigs, we can but hope that this might finally knock some sense into the government on this whole matter.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, OJAS said:

 

If the Thai government were ever minded to unilaterally ditch DTA's, then they had better IMHO brace themselves for swift retaliatory action from our home country governments, in the form of travel bans and the freezing of Thai assets held in our home countries, much like those which were imposed on Putin and various Russian oligarghs in the wake of his Ukrainian "special military operation". Once Thai hiso's with frozen assets in our home countries start squealing like stuck pigs, we can but hope that this might finally knock some sense into the government on this whole matter.

I don't believe for one second that Thailand is inclined to even consider that. I also don't believe, in the highly unlikely event that they did, that the fallout would be anything like what you have suggested.

[Lorry]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

I don't believe for one second that Thailand is inclined to even consider that. I also don't believe, in the highly unlikely event that they did, that the fallout would be anything like what you have suggested.

They may not "unilaterally ditch DTAs".

They may introduce so much red tape (if you want to apply a DTA) that you may prefer to pay tax.

Just the obvious requirements that some tax offices may require: get your foreign tax return translated into Thai by a certified translator,  get it stamped by the Thai embassy,  your country's embassy here and the MFA. I'd rather pay 5000 baht tax. 

BTW obviously, the TRD wil use the Thai version of the DTA. We have seen,  in the video from the French embassy, that this may not be how foreigners understand the foreign version. Have fun!

 

[Mike Lister]

2 hours ago, Lorry said:

They may not "unilaterally ditch DTAs".

They may introduce so much red tape (if you want to apply a DTA) that you may prefer to pay tax.

Just the obvious requirements that some tax offices may require: get your foreign tax return translated into Thai by a certified translator,  get it stamped by the Thai embassy,  your country's embassy here and the MFA. I'd rather pay 5000 baht tax. 

BTW obviously, the TRD wil use the Thai version of the DTA. We have seen,  in the video from the French embassy, that this may not be how foreigners understand the foreign version. Have fun!

 

Yes, that's more likely

[Mike Teavee]

9 hours ago, OJAS said:

 

If the Thai government were ever minded to unilaterally ditch DTA's, then they had better IMHO brace themselves for swift retaliatory action from our home country governments, in the form of travel bans and the freezing of Thai assets held in our home countries, much like those which were imposed on Putin and various Russian oligarghs in the wake of his Ukrainian "special military operation". Once Thai hiso's with sizeable frozen assets in our home countries start squealing like stuck pigs, we can but hope that this might finally knock some sense into the government on this whole matter.

Seem to recall that the UK DTA has a 6 month notice period in it so if Thailand were to decide to withdraw then as long as it gave the 6 months notice before doing so there would be absolutely no fall out from it, UK just wouldn't care* as on balance there's nothing in that agreement for them. 

 

*If you want to know how much the UK cares about it's pensioners living in Thailand, read up on "Frozen Pensions"

 

[Presnock]

8 hours ago, Lorry said:

They may not "unilaterally ditch DTAs".

They may introduce so much red tape (if you want to apply a DTA) that you may prefer to pay tax.

Just the obvious requirements that some tax offices may require: get your foreign tax return translated into Thai by a certified translator,  get it stamped by the Thai embassy,  your country's embassy here and the MFA. I'd rather pay 5000 baht tax. 

BTW obviously, the TRD wil use the Thai version of the DTA. We have seen,  in the video from the French embassy, that this may not be how foreigners understand the foreign version. Have fun!

 

My opinion is that they would not wipe out the DTA's as they are treaties between governments.  I realize though that many countries' DTA in English or Thai may be different in translating from the country's language - I worked for years as a translator and have seen the difficulty that many translators have with with Thai and which word meaning approximately the same to someone not familiar with the language and since these treatiesl are special language use words it could be totally different from what one might expect it as those originally making these treaties would actually be able to discuss them so they fully understood what each side meant but that in most cases could even be decades ago and languages sometimes change along with the society.  That too may be why they would not even consider trying to do a new DTA.  I also realize from this forum, that many people have some particularly varied financial situations - I fortunately being financially dumb, have a very simple financial situation and can relax.  I hope that most of the readers here also know just about how they will fare with anything new that has been suggested.  Once we do get some definite details maybe most can just relax and continue to enjoy life here.  Good luck to all.

[Presnock]

On 6/19/2024 at 9:18 AM, Mike Teavee said:

Great so I leave the 800k in the bank all year round, am not in a motorcycle gang (don't even ride one), even have Health Insurance & you want me to be kicked out of Thailand (where I've lived for the past 5 years, had a Non-IMM O for 7) just because I'm only 58? 

 

Gee Thanks

I think that if they do change the visa retirements to age 60, they will most likely grandfather those current retirement  visa holders that are under age 60 and the new age would apply to any new applicants.

[Ben Zioner]

On 6/19/2024 at 2:39 PM, Confuscious said:

 

This is getting crazy.
Better leaving Thailand and don't stay here longer that 179 days.
That's what they want, or not?

Totally, hence the new visa for twice 180 days over a period of 5 years. I think is all well planned, and IMHO been WIP over the past 5 years.

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Totally, hence the new visa for twice 180 days over a period of 5 years. I think is all well planned, and IMHO been WIP over the past 5 years.

Surely you jest! Since when and where was Thailand ever known for planning anything correctly over long periods? Planning is just not something they do, getting lucky is what they do, from time to time.

[MeePeeMai]

I just hate living in a place (as an unwelcome foreign visitor/guest), constantly trying to keep up with all the latest changes (and proposed changes) to both the Thai Immigration and RD policies (along with banking / driving license / residence certificates for purchasing a vehicle etc. etc. etc.).

 

Not keeping abreast of all the new rules and regulations or the new requirements for us as foreigners can lead to much bigger problems and as an aging retiree, it's not something I relish (especially as I get much older).

 

I'm back in the USA (Hawaii) now and it's a wonderful feeling just to know that I don't need to worry about 90 day reports, accessible income requirements or changes , Thai Taxes, remittances or even the latest global tax proposition. It's like a breath of fresh air, I can move anywhere I want and I don't have to notify anybody or make sure my "landlord" files the required TM30 (so I don't get fined or have problems).

 

I just got tired of all the BS I had to endure just to be a "Short term" Non Immigrant retiree in Thailand.  I will return to Thailand (as I still have over 1,000,000 baht in my bank account/rented apartment/vehicle and motorcycles) but I will only stay for less than 180 days per year regardless of whether or not they ditch this new global tax trap.

 

... and if they increase the 800,000 baht in the bank requirement (earning practically nothing in interest), and/or require me to purchase additional health insurance plan then they win.  I will throw in the towel for good, have a fire sale and say goodbye and good riddance forever.

 

It's just not worth the headache for me there anymore.  The writing is on the wall, the red flags are waving and the govt. bureaucracy and red tape is just too much.  Freedom from unnecessary BS is my main priority now.  

 

I am hoping for the best (long term) and I feel for everyone still living there especially those with families and those who purchased properties there.  Like others have said, Good Luck to us ALL!

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, MeePeeMai said:

I just hate living in a place (as an unwelcome foreign visitor/guest), constantly trying to keep up with all the latest changes (and proposed changes) to both the Thai Immigration and RD policies (along with banking / driving license / residence certificates for purchasing a vehicle etc. etc. etc.).

 

Not keeping abreast of all the new rules and regulations or the new requirements for us as foreigners can lead to much bigger problems and as an aging retiree, it's not something I relish (especially as I get much older).

 

I'm back in the USA (Hawaii) now and it's a wonderful feeling just to know that I don't need to worry about 90 day reports, accessible income requirements or changes , Thai Taxes, remittances or even the latest global tax proposition. It's like a breath of fresh air, I can move anywhere I want and I don't have to notify anybody or make sure my "landlord" files the required TM30 (so I don't get fined or have problems).

 

I just got tired of all the BS I had to endure just to be a "Short term" Non Immigrant retiree in Thailand.  I will return to Thailand (as I still have over 1,000,000 baht in my bank account/rented apartment/vehicle and motorcycles) but I will only stay for less than 180 days per year regardless of whether or not they ditch this new global tax trap.

 

... and if they increase the 800,000 baht in the bank requirement (earning practically nothing in interest), and/or require me to purchase additional health insurance plan then they win.  I will throw in the towel for good, have a fire sale and say goodbye and good riddance forever.

 

It's just not worth the headache for me there anymore.  The writing is on the wall, the red flags are waving and the govt. bureaucracy and red tape is just too much.  Freedom from unnecessary BS is my main priority now.  

 

I am hoping for the best (long term) and I feel for everyone still living there especially those with families and those who purchased properties there.  Like others have said, Good Luck to us ALL!

I agree with the above post, it spells out how many of us feel I suspect. Its not the individual actions so much as it is the constant uncertainty and change on every front. At some point, in old age, some of us could find ourselves needing to make major lifestyles adjustments, just because a new government official had a brain fart. 

[lordgrinz]

59 minutes ago, MeePeeMai said:

I just hate living in a place (as an unwelcome foreign visitor/guest), constantly trying to keep up with all the latest changes (and proposed changes) to both the Thai Immigration and RD policies (along with banking / driving license / residence certificates for purchasing a vehicle etc. etc. etc.).

 

Not keeping abreast of all the new rules and regulations or the new requirements for us as foreigners can lead to much bigger problems and as an aging retiree, it's not something I relish (especially as I get much older).

 

I'm back in the USA (Hawaii) now and it's a wonderful feeling just to know that I don't need to worry about 90 day reports, accessible income requirements or changes , Thai Taxes, remittances or even the latest global tax proposition. It's like a breath of fresh air, I can move anywhere I want and I don't have to notify anybody or make sure my "landlord" files the required TM30 (so I don't get fined or have problems).

 

I just got tired of all the BS I had to endure just to be a "Short term" Non Immigrant retiree in Thailand.  I will return to Thailand (as I still have over 1,000,000 baht in my bank account/rented apartment/vehicle and motorcycles) but I will only stay for less than 180 days per year regardless of whether or not they ditch this new global tax trap.

 

... and if they increase the 800,000 baht in the bank requirement (earning practically nothing in interest), and/or require me to purchase additional health insurance plan then they win.  I will throw in the towel for good, have a fire sale and say goodbye and good riddance forever.

 

It's just not worth the headache for me there anymore.  The writing is on the wall, the red flags are waving and the govt. bureaucracy and red tape is just too much.  Freedom from unnecessary BS is my main priority now.  

 

I am hoping for the best (long term) and I feel for everyone still living there especially those with families and those who purchased properties there.  Like others have said, Good Luck to us ALL!

 

 

AMEN! I just wish my wife would make the choice to leave, I decided forcing her to do so would not be a good choice, it has to be her choice. But I personally hate our life here, I just want to go back home where I can drive, walk, cross a road in peace and safety. To where the air and water are clean, people follow rules and laws, and life is not so fast paced, get back to hiking, camping, and fishing back in the rural USA. My daughter would also gain from not growing up in this cesspool of selfish people, mass-corruption, pollution and lawlessness.

[Ben Zioner]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Surely you jest! Since when and where was Thailand ever known for planning anything correctly over long periods? Planning is just not something they do, getting lucky is what they do, from time to time.

Ok, wait and "see".

[Ben Zioner]

59 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

 

 

AMEN! I just wish my wife would make the choice to leave, I decided forcing her to do so would not be a good choice, it has to be her choice. But I personally hate our life here, I just want to go back home where I can drive, walk, cross a road in peace and safety. To where the air and water are clean, people follow rules and laws, and life is not so fast paced, get back to hiking, camping, and fishing back in the rural USA. My daughter would also gain from not growing up in this cesspool of selfish people, mass-corruption, pollution and lawlessness.

I know how you feel, and if we moved back home with our families the risk they would hate living there is significant. Imagine the cost failure. Anyhow, without an income of less than 10000 Euros a month it would be impossible to establish a family in any of the EU countries. I don't even mention Australia which is even more expensive now.

[lordgrinz]

15 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

I know how you feel, and if we moved back home with our families the risk they would hate living there is significant. Imagine the cost failure. Anyhow, without an income of less than 10000 Euros a month it would be impossible to establish a family in any of the EU countries. I don't even mention Australia which is even more expensive now.

 

10,000 Euros a month? Out of my league....LOL  But yes, worried about the cost failure, family hating it there, and me being 55 is not exactly a great age to find work after spending the last 3 years unemployed (My employer got bought out while I was here as a digital nomad, I was let go in the transition - took 3 years for the new owners to get rid of me though....LOL)

[Ben Zioner]

13 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

and me being 55

So our situations differ. I am 72 with a loving family and only half a dozen of years to go (hopefully).So I can bite the bullet, read, watch TV etc.. At 55 I had dreams.. Reckon you should go, you are way to young to waste here.

[Confuscious]

1 hour ago, lordgrinz said:

 

10,000 Euros a month? Out of my league....LOL  But yes, worried about the cost failure, family hating it there, and me being 55 is not exactly a great age to find work after spending the last 3 years unemployed (My employer got bought out while I was here as a digital nomad, I was let go in the transition - took 3 years for the new owners to get rid of me though....LOL)

 

In most of the European countries you can live a basic lifestyle with 2,000 EUR/month.
Agree, it is far more expensive than living in Thailand, but Thailand is becoming far more expensive to cope wiith all the rules that are in place and rules that are in the make.
Not to mention, the additional head ache at an older age.

Also, I have several friends who chose to move back to their country with their wife and/or family, and thy are doing very well abroad.
Many of them have opened a restaurant or are working and make far more than they ever will in Thailand.
A friend of mine who recently returned from the USA is selling everything in order to move back to the USA as his wife are planning the exodus, not him.

If you don't have the funds/income to live abroad, you can look to stop living here permanently and go live on a 180 day visa.
Spend the other 180 days travelling to other South-east Asian countries and have a worryless life.

[Presnock]

4 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Surely you jest! Since when and where was Thailand ever known for planning anything correctly over long periods? Planning is just not something they do, getting lucky is what they do, from time to time.

They use the same explanation for not having done  "preventive maintenance" a concept missing in most cases here.

[retarius]

On 6/19/2024 at 9:34 PM, JimGant said:

I would assume the reporting mechanism would be sophisticated enough to ferret out income from other cash flows. Otherwise, it would just be a train wreck.

Thinking of Thai train wrecks....how about cannabis legislation, or digital wallets or land bridges.

[theblether]

Do not delude yourselves. And many of you do. 

 

Your "enemy" is not the government of the day. 

 

Your enemy is the ultra-conservative core of the Thai civil service. It is they who have been puppeteering successive government immigration policy for at least 15 years, trying to undo the damage caused by immigration liberalisation after the Tom Yam Kung crisis. 

 

I said "delude." Policies follow the same pattern - they get trailed to guage reaction - then they get brutally imposed. 

 

As far as Conservative Thailand is concerned the post Tom Yam Kung immigration policy was a disaster, encouraging a surge in sex tourism. 

 

These people don't give a flying "f**k" about Isaan farmers daughters. They do give a f*** about being embarrassed by idiots whose first reaction about Thailand is "ladyboys, paeds and every woman is a hooker." 

 

If anything, every government tries to mollify the worst tendencies of the ultra-conservatives. 

 

But as one of my pals put it when he was being escorted to the deportation flight. He had the bright idea of offering a bribe to airport immigration police to free him. The reply, in perfect English...

 

"Your fantasy is over."

 

When conservative Thailand makes an appearance, you'll get the fright of your life. 

[theblether]

Let me add one more thing. Some of you can't see the wood for the trees. 

 

The drive to bring in mass Chinese and Asian tourism is a direct attack on the sex trade. As one tour guide said to me years ago "all the Asians want to do is look at temples and shop." 

 

They are the perfect tourist profile for Conservative Thais. So if you ever think immigration policies are slanted against Westerners who were gifted Liberal policies then effed them up? You are correct. 

 

The damage has been done. And Conservative Thailand hasn't forgiven. 

 

 

 

 

[theblether]

Within a few weeks, if the conservatives have their way, many of you will be calling your airline for a one-way ticket. 

 

That includes some of you who think you are secure. 

 

I've said it before on this thread. This tax issue is a sideline. Go back and read what happened when health insurance was imposed on O-A visa holders. 

 

Many were uninsurable due to age. I knew a retired lawyer who ended up paying around 170,000 baht in premiums. 

 

I'll say it again - do not make any financial commitment to Thailand just now. The review results are imminent and as a wealthy, Thai fluent expat of 30 years standing told me yesterday, things are looking bad. 

 

I don't want to name him, but a well known expat vlogger who was invited into immigration before the last imbroglio ( black listing for overstay ) has gone quiet. 

 

Immigration asked him to announce the new policy explaining the does and don'ts last time. His silence just now is a concern. 

 

Edit to explain. The last time he made the announcement this forum blocked his thread until they verified who he was. A couple of days later they released the info he had provided. 

 

Be rest assured, among the hundreds of worthless vloggers, there's a small coterie who are watched and trusted by immigration. He is one of them. 

[MeePeeMai]

5 minutes ago, theblether said:

Go back and read what happened when health insurance was imposed on O-A visa holders. 

 

I was one of those here on an O-A extension at that time and I was very negatively affected as I was one of the "fools" who believed that all I needed to do was fill out the form to prove I had health insurance from my home country which met or exceeded the requirements and covered me here in Thailand... so I wasted a lot of time, energy and money trying to accomplish this impossible task (to no avail).

 

Hence, I had to exit Thailand and re-enter on a visa exempt and start the process all over to get a new 90 day Non Imm -O visa and 12 month extension.  

 

Just another bad memory for me jumping through unnecessary hoops while trying to live a peaceful easy retirement life here in Thailand.

 

I have lots of horror stories for example, dealing with an impossible rogue IO in the province I used to live (she was the reason I moved to Udon at that time), TM30 nightmares, Covid misery and I could go on and on but I won't.

 

It just gets old and I think there is definitely a motive behind all the madness we must navigate while living in Thailand.

[theblether]

8 minutes ago, MeePeeMai said:

 

I was one of those here on an O-A extension at that time and I was very negatively affected as I was one of the "fools" who believed that all I needed to do was fill out the form to prove I had health insurance from my home country which met or exceeded the requirements and covered me here in Thailand... so I wasted a lot of time, energy and money trying to accomplish this impossible task (to no avail).

 

Hence, I had to exit Thailand and re-enter on a visa exempt and start the process all over to get a new 90 day Non Imm -O visa and 12 month extension.  

 

Just another bad memory for me jumping through unnecessary hoops while trying to live a peaceful easy retirement life here in Thailand.

 

I have lots of horror stories for example, dealing with an impossible rogue IO in the province I used to live (she was the reason I moved to Udon at that time), TM30 nightmares, Covid misery and I could go on and on but I won't.

 

It just gets old and I think there is definitely a motive behind all the madness we must navigate while living in Thailand.

 

I'm sorry to hear that and I witnessed a few dire stories including extraordinary attempts by IO to extort bribes from vulnerable people. 

 

I tend to limit what I post on the forum as some of the real life stories are jaw-dropping. 

 

Some forum members will remember the imbroglio re the vlogger to which I refer. It was a poor episode in the life of this forum. 

 

However, many more members will know to what extent your "connected police brother-in-law" runs for the hills when the conservatives appear. 

 

Clearly that happened during the coup when there was a mass ass-collapse when the military turned up. 

 

Lesser known to we Westerners are the times conservatives clip the wings of the uppity. I've seen major hotels ordered shut as the owners crossed the wrong people. 

 

But, hey - according to many farangs they don't know what they are doing. Don't be kidded. As you know from bitter experience, when they make a move they are brutally effective. In fact, you could say at times, cruelly effective. 

[JohnnyBD]

1 hour ago, theblether said:

Within a few weeks, if the conservatives have their way, many of you will be calling your airline for a one-way ticket. 

 

That includes some of you who think you are secure. 

Some may do what you say, but many will just file and pay their taxes. I want to spend more time with my loved ones anyway, so I will just spend 5 mths in the US, 5 mths in Thailand and spend the rest of the time traveling with my wife outside of Thailand. It's not a problem for me. I know others who live here, but work outside of Thailand, and are here for less than 180 days, so it's not a problem for them either. I feel badly for those who don't have those options, it really sucks.

[hotandsticky]

17 hours ago, OJAS said:

 

If the Thai government were ever minded to unilaterally ditch DTA's, then they had better IMHO brace themselves for swift retaliatory action from our home country governments, in the form of travel bans and the freezing of Thai assets held in our home countries, much like those which were imposed on Putin and various Russian oligarghs in the wake of his Ukrainian "special military operation". Once Thai hiso's with sizeable frozen assets in our home countries start squealing like stuck pigs, we can but hope that this might finally knock some sense into the government on this whole matter.

 

 

Pure fantasy