Is the Tax compliance going to be linked to Visa issuance ?

[theblether]

27 minutes ago, connda said:

You'll know by 2025.  Until then it is useless speculation and fear-mongering.  Kick back, grab a beer, and chill.  Worry about it IF if happens.

 

Should we run a sweepstake? Guess the date the first member topic goes up - "immigration asked about my tax returns." 

 

I've long been a proponent of the snowbird lifestyle. I suggest any forum member who has not chained themselves down to Thailand to plan on a 179 day combined stay next year and just bypass this BS. 

 

Or you could just sit and chill and wait until it's a major problem you can't avoid. 

 

 

[brianthainess]

1 minute ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

Only if you're right. At the moment we don't know zilch.

Well check what the DTA means.

[theblether]

May I also point out the cunning "I'll just transfer money to my wife's name" will just result in her having to do a tax return. 

 

The whole point of this is to attack overseas remittances to Thai bank accounts. Isaan bar girls might get away with it but farangs standing in front of immigration with a Thai wife are asking for trouble. 

[Stevemercer]

No, it will not. Certainly not for those on marriage extensions because of the complexity. In my opinion, it is not something to worry about or otherwise expend angst.

[john donson]

On 9/10/2024 at 11:17 AM, CharlesHolzhauer said:

Yes it is. The best to my knowledge, some countries already have systems in place that require individuals to demonstrate tax compliance as part of the visa or visa extension application process and is likely to become more common as governments streamline tax and immigration policies.

My main concern is the discriminatory approach Thailand has taken regarding tax issues for the relatively new Long-Term Residency (LTR) Visa, compared to existing retirees (over 65) on the one-year visa extension. I personally believe that all retirees over 65 on the visa extension, as well as married couples, should also be included in the current LTR tax scheme.

 

there are many people on a retirement visa that are clearly not 65 YET... far from... besides the point

 

immigration might or will make it our problem... to go get papers from your home country, get it translated AND certified by MFA... as if there is not enough red tape yet...

 

not to hijack the post, but my only income is interest paid by Thai banks and they already got my 15%... If I am forced to do a return, I might get 5% back, as my 'income' would be in the lowest of low income, not like you all pension millionaires...

Edited September 11 by john donson

[Grumpy one]

On 9/10/2024 at 11:50 AM, Thailand said:

Doesn't this new proposal affect everyone resident in Thailand, Thais included?

e.g. bar girls etc receiving money from their "friends" overseas, won't they also be liable?

Most of that money would be going to vets for Grannie's sick buffalo  

So maybe classed as a charitable donation

[Thailand]

21 hours ago, brewsterbudgen said:

Thais don't need to complete a tax return and don't need a visa/extension to live here; so, no.

https://www.siam-legal.com/thailand-law/thailand-new-tax-on-foreign-income-an-overview/#:~:text=Thai citizens and foreigners who,to a 10% tax rate.

[jwest10]

On 9/10/2024 at 11:17 AM, CharlesHolzhauer said:

Yes it is. The best to my knowledge, some countries already have systems in place that require individuals to demonstrate tax compliance as part of the visa or visa extension application process and is likely to become more common as governments streamline tax and immigration policies.

My main concern is the discriminatory approach Thailand has taken regarding tax issues for the relatively new Long-Term Residency (LTR) Visa, compared to existing retirees (over 65) on the one-year visa extension. I personally believe that all retirees over 65 on the visa extension, as well as married couples, should also be included in the current LTR tax scheme.

Charles, Yes exactly and they conveniently forget we sustain our wonderful Thai families, as best we can on froze state pensions but they of course do not take any notice of that and also we keep the Thai economy going.

[jwest10]

On 9/10/2024 at 10:30 AM, CharlieH said:

 

Recent developments from the Thai Revenue Department signal significant changes ahead for expatriates residing in Thailand. The department is drafting legislation to tax the overseas income of individuals residing in Thailand for 180 days or more, aligning with the international principle of worldwide income under the residence rule. Additionally, there is speculation about linking these tax requirements to the application and issuance of long-term visas for expats, which has raised questions about its impact on the expatriate community.

 

1. Is it reasonable to assume the government will link tax compliance to the issuance of long-term visas? Or is this a step too far?

2. How might these changes influence the decision of expatriates to move to or stay in Thailand?

 

The proposed tax legislation and its potential linkage to long-term visa requirements represent a significant shift in the policy landscape for expatriates in Thailand.

 

What are your thoughts on this ?

Who know all the so-called ex[erts have not got a clue!!!

[CharlesHolzhauer]

14 minutes ago, john donson said:

there are many people on a retirement visa that are clearly not 65 YET

Yes, you are right. In hindsight, I shouldn't have referred to a specific age. Instead, I should have mentioned the 'age stipulated by the Thai authorities'.

[jwest10]

26 minutes ago, theblether said:

 

Should we run a sweepstake? Guess the date the first member topic goes up - "immigration asked about my tax returns." 

 

I've long been a proponent of the snowbird lifestyle. I suggest any forum member who has not chained themselves down to Thailand to plan on a 179 day combined stay next year and just bypass this BS. 

 

Or you could just sit and chill and wait until it's a major problem you can't avoid. 

 

 

And named and given a prize!!!

[hwas]

I strongly suspect that once the global tax change goes into effect, the “stay in Thailand less than 180 days” loophole will also be closed.  Thailand will simply require residence visa holders to be resident in Thailand for 180 days, or the visa will be cancelled.  This is a requirement in most countries for residence visas

[spidermike007]

If this is the threshold for approving that you are tax compliant, then a simple bribe to an immigration official would suffice to continue maintaining a no taxes paid status. Right now we can bribe them for just about anything so why wouldn't this also apply? It used to be that you had to use an agent to get around non-compliance on visa issues, now you can do it directly at nearly any immigration office. 

[CharlesHolzhauer]

34 minutes ago, john donson said:

[...]If I am forced to do a return, I might get 5% back, as my 'income' would be in the lowest of low income, not like you all pension millionaires...

It maybe helpful reading Mike's Introduction to Personal Income Tax in Thailand.

This small excell to compute taxes from 'pauku1' maybe helpful also, ymmv.
<https://aseannow.com/topic/1318120-revenue-department-contact-reports/#comment-18647010>

[Presnock]

On 9/10/2024 at 11:17 AM, CharlesHolzhauer said:

Yes it is. The best to my knowledge, some countries already have systems in place that require individuals to demonstrate tax compliance as part of the visa or visa extension application process and is likely to become more common as governments streamline tax and immigration policies.

My main concern is the discriminatory approach Thailand has taken regarding tax issues for the relatively new Long-Term Residency (LTR) Visa, compared to existing retirees (over 65) on the one-year visa extension. I personally believe that all retirees over 65 on the visa extension, as well as married couples, should also be included in the current LTR tax scheme.

so apply for the LTR

 

[Dan O]

Well I'm not in favor of this happening as the different agencies within the country don't play well together. On the fip side most developed countries in the world have checks and balances to all the different issues like foreigners qualifying for taxation due to being in a residency category and regs about working. For the expats here to get all butt hurt about the concept is a bit ridiculous. If it happens to get linked then just decide if its acceptable to you and stay if it is and leave and go somewhere else if it isn't. 

[CANSIAM]

34 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

If this is the threshold for approving that you are tax compliant, then a simple bribe to an immigration official would suffice to continue maintaining a no taxes paid status. Right now we can bribe them for just about anything so why wouldn't this also apply? It used to be that you had to use an agent to get around non-compliance on visa issues, now you can do it directly at nearly any immigration office. 

Spot on !  put tax on the non-compliance bribe menu.......money buries Law and Order here always will.....

[koolkarl]

Since it is easy to demand a tax clearance certificate while renewing your annual visa, it is also possible to require you to show a tax clearance certificate if you want to leave Thailand (this law already exists but not implemented). Again, you get no health care or immigrant status for your money.  I was aware of CRS coming here at least 3 years ago.  It is reality whether you like it or not.

[CharlesHolzhauer]

1 hour ago, Presnock said:

so apply for the LTR

My response to the op does in no way show or imply that I don't have a LTR - Stop stalking me, Presnok!

[Presnock]

3 hours ago, jesimps said:

 

I've found in this life that if you're happy and contented, not rich but have enough to get by, law abiding and quiet and inoffensive, someone will attempt to upset your applecart.

such is human nature at its best and to think that in many religions, greed/envy are sins.  Then there are those that work their ass off and still can't make enough to even buy a house or provide for their family as they are just making some other person rich.

[Surasak]

On 9/10/2024 at 3:28 PM, brewsterbudgen said:

Thais don't need to complete a tax return and don't need a visa/extension to live here; so, no.

 A Thai completing a tax return would depend on their income. A business tax can apply if the income is over a certain amount, of which I am not sure.

[connda]

3 hours ago, brianthainess said:

If you receive less than your home countries tax allowance then you will not have to pay tax, that is double taxing, and against the DTA Double Taxing Authority international agreements.  Or if you have paid tax already. In My Opinion this is just scare mongering.

Am I allowed my opinion ?

The Standard Deduction in the US for married filing jointly is $29,200.
The exemption in Thailand that I worked out is about $16,200 or significantly less.  If you're making $29,200 a year in the US you're in poverty really and exempt from taxes. 

But let's say Thailand can tax all of it.  You'd be on the hook for 13,000 USD or about 450K THB. 

So Thailand would get you for about 25,000 THB in taxes when the US wouldn't even tax you. 

Not quite fair 'eh?  I've read the DTA for the US but didn't notice a clause regarding tax allowance such as the US Standard Deduction or even itemized deductions for that matter. 

Do you know specifically where in the DTA this is stated?
"If you receive less than your home countries tax allowance then you will not have to pay tax, that is double taxing, and against the DTA Double Taxing Authority international agreements."

[4MyEgo]

On 9/10/2024 at 1:30 PM, CharlieH said:

1. Is it reasonable to assume the government will link tax compliance to the issuance of long-term visas? Or is this a step too far?

2. How might these changes influence the decision of expatriates to move to or stay in Thailand?

 

The proposed tax legislation and its potential linkage to long-term visa requirements represent a significant shift in the policy landscape for expatriates in Thailand.

 

Good post Charles, more salt to the wounds....LOL

 

1. You would think that they would, regardless of what fee (50,000 baht) they have paid for the privilege. I say that, as they have to be big earners to apply of it, i.e. $80,000 USD per annum or invest 5 mil here, etc, etc from what I have heard/read, if memory serves me right. Now there is a big fish to fry as they have all the information they require, don't they.

 

2. It has influenced my decision because under my circumstances, being married to a Thai who has dual citizenship, as do our kids, it's not really an issue, as we can up and go, albeit the kids will have to change schools and country of course, which they would love, earlier than originally planned as I would have liked them to finish school here before going back.

 

Government back in the old country is generous when it comes to hand outs for kids, unemployment benefits, rental subsidy, etc, etc, that said, according to my calculations, one would just have to accept that the handouts would cover the rent and you live off what funds you have been living off here, besides the tax thresholds there are much more generous than here, with a few minor adjustments of course.

 

The only real bad part for me would be downsizing and having colder weather which I suppose I could adjust to....LOL

 

If they want to bring it on, then we are ready for our new life, with free healthcare 🙂

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Surasak]

3 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

If this is the threshold for approving that you are tax compliant, then a simple bribe to an immigration official would suffice to continue maintaining a no taxes paid status. Right now we can bribe them for just about anything so why wouldn't this also apply? It used to be that you had to use an agent to get around non-compliance on visa issues, now you can do it directly at nearly any immigration office. 

Not sure about mine, but I will make enquiries.😇

[UKresonant]

On 9/10/2024 at 4:30 AM, CharlieH said:

 

Recent developments from the Thai Revenue Department signal significant changes ahead for expatriates residing in Thailand. The department is drafting legislation to tax the overseas income of individuals residing in Thailand for 180 days or more, aligning with the international principle of worldwide income under the residence rule. Additionally, there is speculation about linking these tax requirements to the application and issuance of long-term visas for expats, which has raised questions about its impact on the expatriate community.

 

1. Is it reasonable to assume the government will link tax compliance to the issuance of long-term visas? Or is this a step too far?

2. How might these changes influence the decision of expatriates to move to or stay in Thailand?

 

The proposed tax legislation and its potential linkage to long-term visa requirements represent a significant shift in the policy landscape for expatriates in Thailand.

 

What are your thoughts on this ?

So from that possibility of linking the long term Visas to tax compliance, does that potentially they are unavailable for folks that do not want to be there enough to become tax resident perhaps.

 

If they move to Global taxation, whilst, whilst being excluded from the likes of  even basic access to some basic  health cover, it makes it quite disappointing. (Together with many private health insurance not being effective if  not there, for 6months out of rolling 12 months, and due to a pre-existing uncertenty they would pay out). 

 

I'm not in Thailand currently, if it were not for existing ties to Thailand, the thought of detaching from the UK, and becoming totally committed, generates apprehension rather than the pre-2019 desire....

 

The administration of the tax procedure is yet to be seen, in its re-interpretation, will they ask for supporting docs that are impracticle to obtain, or make assumptions on possible verification availability. The first quarter of 2025 may shed some light...

 

[bwanajohn]

I suspect that forcing you to leave the country cuz you owe taxes is not going to be seen as win win for anyone.

[mokwit]

10 hours ago, UKresonant said:

The administration of the tax procedure is yet to be seen, in its re-interpretation, will they ask for supporting docs that are impracticle to obtain, or make assumptions on possible verification availability. The first quarter of 2025 may shed some light...

This is a likely wild card.

[soalbundy]

It's the obvious next step for a country obsessed with bureaucracy. What difference does it make? Trying to avoid paying tax is a fool's game, like not bothering to renew your visa, sooner or later you will be found out and suffer the consequence.

[chiang mai]

11 hours ago, bwanajohn said:

I suspect that forcing you to leave the country cuz you owe taxes is not going to be seen as win win for anyone.

True, but it will be a face saving option for them and also allow them to wield their authority on foreigners, something they like to do from time to time.

[chiang mai]

Maybe the issue has already been covered but not everyone needs to file a tax return because they already have enough money in country and their pension payments are exempt. How do those people prove tax compliance for visa purposes, simply they cannot.