Expat Taxation - Does anyone really know what's going on?

[NoDisplayName]

30 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

However, the days of becoming a tax resident of no where are coming to an end. 

 

I'm property of the US government.  All my income - foreign, domestic, inter-dimensional - is subject to taxation.  I'm not getting away with anything, not avoiding taxes.  I file every year, and follow the IRS rules.

 

30 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

What MAY become interesting is how Thai tax authorities deal with an arrears tax debt. 

 

There was another thread today where Malaysia had refused to allow 39 of their citizens to leave the country to enter Thailand, many due to unpaid taxes.

 

So, yeah, they can stop you if they want to. 

 

I'll cover my butt by filing a return online every year.  Takes ten minutes or so, just another paper drill to live overseas like filing the annual FBAR. 

 

*EDIT*

 

Here's the article in the Thaiger.

 

Borderline chaos: Malaysian tourists banned from entering Thailand

 

Border drama unfolded yesterday when 39 Malaysian tourists found themselves banned from entering Thailand, thanks to unresolved passport issues, outstanding tax debts, and past criminal records.

 

https://thethaiger.com/news/national/borderline-chaos-malaysian-tourists-banned-from-entering-thailand

 

This is what we'll be looking at eventually.  20 of the tourists were stopped due to delinquent income tax payments.  Looks like all the Malaysian government departments have linked databases.  They even "advise all Malaysians to verify their travel eligibility online using Immigration’s Travel Check System portal before setting off on international adventures."

 

 

 

Edited September 18 by NoDisplayName

[KhunHeineken]

55 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

I'm property of the US government.  All my income - foreign, domestic, inter-dimensional - is subject to taxation.  I'm not getting away with anything, not avoiding taxes.  I file every year, and follow the IRS rules.

Proves my point then, doesn't it? 

 

57 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

'll cover my butt by filing a return online every year.  Takes ten minutes or so, just another paper drill to live overseas like filing the annual FBAR. 

Exactly, and well said, yet there are sooooooooo many that seem to think all of this will just disappear, like magic. 

 

58 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

This is what we'll be looking at eventually.  20 of the tourists were stopped due to delinquent income tax payments.  Looks like all the Malaysian government departments have linked databases.  They even "advise all Malaysians to verify their travel eligibility online using Immigration’s Travel Check System portal before setting off on international adventures."

Now, who was it that suggested some time ago we MAY see a TRD desk at boarders one day, in the same way we see a overstay desks?

 

Oh, yeah, that's right, it was me, and everyone ridiculed me for posting it, and reported it as scaremongering, and had the posts deleted. 

 

Of course, no mention that's it's been happening for decades for overstay fines, but it could NEVER happen for tax collection purposes, could it?  

[NoDisplayName]

12 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Now, who was it that suggested some time ago we MAY see a TRD desk at boarders one day, in the same way we see a overstay desks?

 

 

I don't see why this couldn't happen.  After all, the law is still active, on the books that a Tax Clearance Certificate is required for any tax-resident foreigner wanting to leave the country.

 

It's a simple policy change to reactivate enforcement of the requirement.  It would be a paper drill at first, get the TCC up to 15 days prior to travel or extension of stay, but eventually would be automated by copying the Malaysian system.

 

Viewable on the TRD website:  Tax Clearance Certificate

 

Section 4 quarter of the Revenue Code stipulates that a foreigner departing shall apply for a Tax Clearance Certificate in the form prescribed by the Director-General within 15 days before leaving the country, whether or not there is any tax payable.

https://www.rd.go.th/english/23518.html

[KhunHeineken]

41 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

I don't see why this couldn't happen. 

Ohhhh, but everyone laughed, and those that didn't laugh reported my post as scaremongering.  

 

Now, you have a Mod posting the very question can / will an expat's tax liability be attached to their visa / extension / passport. 

 

What a different a few months make. 

 

41 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

After all, the law is still active, on the books that a Tax Clearance Certificate is required for any tax-resident foreigner wanting to leave the country.

Correct. 

 

So why was it viewed as scaremongering, or humorous? 

 

41 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

It's a simple policy change to reactivate enforcement of the requirement.  It would be a paper drill at first, get the TCC up to 15 days prior to travel or extension of stay, but eventually would be automated by copying the Malaysian system.

I hear you, but many are suggesting it's Rocket Science for Thailand, despite the fact Thailand has their retirement visa / extension / drivers license / TM 30, Certificate of Residence etc etc well oiled for foreigners.  

 

What's one more piece of paper needed, at a cost, of course? 

 

41 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

Viewable on the TRD website:  Tax Clearance Certificate

 

Section 4 quarter of the Revenue Code stipulates that a foreigner departing shall apply for a Tax Clearance Certificate in the form prescribed by the Director-General within 15 days before leaving the country, whether or not there is any tax payable.

No, surely it can't be.   Thailand would never do such a thing.  All the expats would leave.  Right?  

 

The psychology behind many posts is interesting.  Fear of change comes through in many posts, but it's inevitable. We all love our mobile phones, but it's unthinkable that government data bases with millions of more computing power could ever match up immigration and taxation data bases.  That's just not possible, right? 

 

As I have said, many are asking, "Why would they do it" when they should be asking "why wouldn't they do it?"  Answer is, MONEY, MONEY, MONEY. 

 

 

Edited September 18 by KhunHeineken

[chiang mai]

3 hours ago, advancebooking said:

B.S     We have highly qualified thais working for us earning big money. We know they dont do tax returns

How do they pay tax, via PAYE (deducted by the employer)?

 

Does the employer file a return for them?

[4MyEgo]

18 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

if the member is Australian, he can watch the youtube video I have posted with some input from a Chartered Accountant in Australia. 

 

It's the youtube video that deals with Article 18 and Article 19 in the Australia / Thailand DTA. 

 

It's the youtube video that disagreed with your "Forget about Article 19" post in the Australia Forum, yet, you change forums, and post under Article 19 you have to pay tax on this forum. 

 

If the member watches the youtube video, they will see you can not "Forget about Article 19." 

 

Like Articles 18 & 19 which I won't get into with you for because I have to agree to disagree and shut that one down.

 

But I take it you can read, and understand the difference between a resident and a non resident for tax purposes and where incomes are sourced from ?

 

After you have read the below, you may wish to explain to me what a non resident is, in plain English.

 

Overview of Thailand’s Income Tax System

 

Thailand operates a progressive income tax system like Australia, meaning higher incomes are subject to higher tax rates. The tax year aligns with the calendar year. Tax residency is determined by physical presence within the country for at least 180 days, with residents taxed on worldwide income remitted to Thailand and non-residents taxed solely on income earned domestically.

Your residence status and income source influence your tax obligations.

 

 

Register for a Thai Tax Identification Number (TIN): A Thai Tax Identification Number is necessary if you have taxable income in Thailand. The TIN is used for all your tax filings and communications with the Thai Revenue Department.

Tax Residency

Unlike Australia, Thailand determines tax residence based on physical presence, not domicile. This distinction can have notable implications for expats, impacting the degree to which their global income may be taxed.

In Thailand, individuals are considered tax residents if they spend 180 days or more in the country within a tax year (1 January to 31 December). Non-residents are generally taxed only on income derived from Thai sources.

 

 

Edited September 19 by 4MyEgo

[chiang mai]

9 hours ago, chiang mai said:

How do they pay tax, via PAYE (deducted by the employer)?

 

Does the employer file a return for them?

Bump @advancebooking

[advancebooking]

10 hours ago, chiang mai said:

How do they pay tax, via PAYE (deducted by the employer)?

 

Does the employer file a return for them?

No, why would you think we (employer) has to file a return for them. We operate a small business- not in company structure. Its up to an individual to file their own tax returns. You should know this. 

[chiang mai]

15 minutes ago, advancebooking said:

No, why would you think we (employer) has to file a return for them. We operate a small business- not in company structure. Its up to an individual to file their own tax returns. You should know this. 

I've never been employed in Thailand plus I understand work permit holders tax returns are frequently filled by their employers, I didn't know if that was also true for some Thai employees also.

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, advancebooking said:

No, why would you think we (employer) has to file a return for them. We operate a small business- not in company structure. Its up to an individual to file their own tax returns. You should know this. 

Thinking about this some more:

 

I don't know much about when the employer must deduct taxes from the employee and  what category of employees are affected. I understand from others that Work Permit holders have taxes deducted from their wages and that the employer files the tax return, in some cases.

 

I also know of Thai employees who are hired as daily workers but are employed full time, and they are responsible for their own taxes.  It sounds as though your business is not required to deduct taxes, presumably because you are not a company structure (?) which means the employee is liable for their own taxes (?).

 

Finally, when you say you have employees who earn a lot but don't file a tax return, what is the scale of that, say 400k or more  (?).

 

Cleary, I'm trying to fill in the gaps here so any information you can provide will help.

[oldcpu]

4 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Register for a Thai Tax Identification Number (TIN): A Thai Tax Identification Number is necessary if you have taxable income in Thailand. The TIN is used for all your tax filings and communications with the Thai Revenue Department.

 

 

A caveat (?) I would apply is getting a Thai TIN is not always so easy.

 

My wife tried for me (online application) some months back, and thus far this has failed.  The online application for the TIN goes to the Bangkok office. The Bangkok office passed it to the Phuket office.  An official from the Phuket office called us (talking to my wife on the phone).

 

The official asked, why did I want a tax ID?  My wife replied that it was because I was thinking I may need to file a Thai tax income return.

 

The tax official asked what was my income source, and was I bringing that income into Thailand?  My wife noted my income was foreign pensions, and that while at present I was not bringing the money into Thailand, I was thinking to bring some in to Thailand in the future.

 

The official replied if I was not bringing the money into Thailand, then I did not have to file a tax return.

 

My wife noted I had a Thai Pink-ID, and was that an acceptable Tax ID? She noted that she had tried to use that Pink-ID in the online tax submission form for Thailand, and the Pink-ID was rejected.  The official replied for the Pink-ID to be used as a tax ID (online) it needed to be activated first (as a tax-ID). The official repeated I did not need to file a tax return (nor need a TIN) if I was not bringing money into Thailand.

 

My wife went one question further (not so relevant to this Aseannow thread), noted i was on an LTR visa, and if on that Visa would I need to submit a tax return if I brought money into Thailand. The official replied he never heard of an LTR visa.

 

My wife also asked, if I earn money from interest (bonds/bank/mutual funds) in Thailand, given there was already a withholding tax, at what amount would I be required to file a tax return?  The official replied, he would check and call my wife back (re: LTR visa and also filing a tax return for foreign/Thai amounts of income).

 

He never called back. 

 

Clearly he was not in a hurry to give a foreigner a Thai TIN. 

 

So while waiting for a phone call back, that will likely NEVER come, I, like everyone else, will watch to see how this plays out in the coming year. 

 

I did come away with the sense that (1) Thai tax authorities are not keen on receiving a bunch of new paperwork (with more tax returns) and (2) Thai tax authorities themselves don't know yet the impact of the new tax interpretations, and (3) it is NOT always an easy process for a foreigner to get a Thai tax ID.

 

At present time, its looking to me things are "in flux" and very few (anyone?) know for certain the outcome of the possible changes.

Edited September 19 by oldcpu

[dukeandduke]

On 9/19/2024 at 11:26 AM, advancebooking said:

No, why would you think we (employer) has to file a return for them. We operate a small business- not in company structure. Its up to an individual to file their own tax returns. You should know this. 

My Thai employer deducted my taxes from my paychecks, and I never had to file.

[Ralf001]

On 9/16/2024 at 9:53 PM, Everyman said:

 

Ah, the tourism fee. The airlines balked because they were expected to collect it and they didn’t want the expense of reworking their book systems just to accommodate Thailand. 

 

Yeah they shoulda just raised the departure tax by 300b.

[Ralf001]

7 minutes ago, dukeandduke said:

My Thai employer deducted my taxes from my paychecks, and I never had to file.

small company was it ?

[dukeandduke]

Just now, Ralf001 said:

small company was it ?

No, rather large.

[Ralf001]

5 minutes ago, dukeandduke said:

No, rather large.

 

Yeah that be why they did for you.

[4MyEgo]

On 9/19/2024 at 4:25 PM, oldcpu said:

He never called back. 

 

Clearly he was not in a hurry to give a foreigner a Thai TIN. 

 

As usual the left doesn't know what the right is doing.

 

The top makes amendments and passes new legislation, then the ones at the other end of the food chain have to take task, now that means more paperwork, and it's not as if they haven't already got a sheet load, just look at immigration offices around the country, they prefer you use an agent, brown envelope, less paperwork for them.

 

I agree with you, it's never going to get off the ground and will MORE than likely be for those foreigners earning money in Thailand who are residents, like teachers etc etc.

 

I will continue to carry on as usual, until someone taps me on the shoulder, or as that confused member KhunHeineken states, that when we go to immigration, we will require a tax clearance certificate....LOL 

[chiang mai]

3 hours ago, dukeandduke said:

No, rather large.

I'd like to understand the rules of when companies must deduct tax from pay, for what classes of employee, in what size or types of business because there seems to be different rules in operation. But a[[reantelt, either this is classified information that mustn't be divulged, or, nobody knows.

[EVENKEEL]

On 9/18/2024 at 11:41 PM, KhunHeineken said:

Ohhhh, but everyone laughed, and those that didn't laugh reported my post as scaremongering.  

 

Now, you have a Mod posting the very question can / will an expat's tax liability be attached to their visa / extension / passport. 

 

What a different a few months make. 

 

Correct. 

 

So why was it viewed as scaremongering, or humorous? 

 

I hear you, but many are suggesting it's Rocket Science for Thailand, despite the fact Thailand has their retirement visa / extension / drivers license / TM 30, Certificate of Residence etc etc well oiled for foreigners.  

 

What's one more piece of paper needed, at a cost, of course? 

 

No, surely it can't be.   Thailand would never do such a thing.  All the expats would leave.  Right?  

 

The psychology behind many posts is interesting.  Fear of change comes through in many posts, but it's inevitable. We all love our mobile phones, but it's unthinkable that government data bases with millions of more computing power could ever match up immigration and taxation data bases.  That's just not possible, right? 

 

As I have said, many are asking, "Why would they do it" when they should be asking "why wouldn't they do it?"  Answer is, MONEY, MONEY, MONEY. 

 

 

You're so boring. What a boring existence you must have.

[Everyman]

6 hours ago, Ralf001 said:

 

Yeah they shoulda just raised the departure tax by 300b.

 

But then they couldn’t divert it into somebody’s slush fund. I was totally amazed by the foreigners who okay with that. Some people have no dignity.