Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[NoDisplayName]

2 hours ago, cooked said:

I didn't say you need a Tabien Ban to obtain a TIN. I said you need to have a Thai ID number and if you haven't got a Tabien Ban beforehand, you won't get one. I didn't say that you need a TIN by end of September. The process of getting a TIN will start then, you have until end of March to complete the process.

 

You do not need a Thai ID (or tabien ban) to obtain a TIN.  If you have a Thai ID, you use that number for filing tax, making the TIN irrevelant.

 

If you don't have a Thai ID, you apply for a TIN to use as a substitute number for tax filing purposes.

 

I'll repeat.  If you have a Thai ID, that IS your tax number.  You don't need a substitute number.  It's normally only expats that applied for a TIN before obtaining a Thai ID that have both.

 

Just march your little butt down to the local tax office and apply.  I believe you only need to show passport with long-stay visa, no residence certificate required.  Others who have applied recently can confirm.  You'll likely be told you don't need one, but the claim that you need it to file taxes to claim interest tax refund should be sufficient reason.

[Mike Teavee]

2 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

You do not need a Thai ID (or tabien ban) to obtain a TIN.  If you have a Thai ID, you use that number for filing tax, making the TIN irrevelant.

 

If you don't have a Thai ID, you apply for a TIN to use as a substitute number for tax filing purposes.

 

I'll repeat.  If you have a Thai ID, that IS your tax number.  You don't need a substitute number.  It's normally only expats that applied for a TIN before obtaining a Thai ID that have both.

 

Just march your little butt down to the local tax office and apply.  I believe you only need to show passport with long-stay visa, no residence certificate required.  Others who have applied recently can confirm.  You'll likely be told you don't need one, but the claim that you need it to file taxes to claim interest tax refund should be sufficient reason.

 

I needed a Residence Certificate when I got mine from the Naklua Office approx. 18 months ago.  

[jwest10]

On 7/2/2024 at 5:00 PM, Mike Lister said:

You can claim your wife's Personal Allowance of 60k, only if you file a joint return.

 

Your UK savings are not at risk, either now or in the future, because they are savings and not income.

Hi  Mike 
Just me again.
Sort if seeing these forms pnd 94 which then goes to form 90 and in any case looked at some other forms only include 2023.
There is supposed to be an income Exemption form but can only see the 120k or 200k one.
These will and will being revamped and where does it state 50% of pension Income100k and the  OAE over age 65 190k.

Yes hold fire as you say and you would have seen Chris/Luca on this subject on YouTube but he does not raise the question of this at all and have posted this.
Quick one Mike I saw about joint filing and see the joint filing attached form in red but noticed 65 so I can not claim for my wife unless this is going to be changed.
As you say, Mike just hang fire.
Cheers mate and I realized it is Saturday but all days roll into one here.
Of course, asking for  which not got as yet 

Let us hope the new revamped is in a much better format.
Yes not mentioned to my wife but the daughter-in-law saw me as they came in and asked what is that and can not explain myself and was shielding  this from them as very hard to explain and I do not lol
Oh just saw the last 2 posts and as and when can use my Thai ID card and interesting.

  

Edited July 6 by jwest10

[TroubleandGrumpy]

Posted this is another thread about Thailand taxing even if not remitted - so am posting this here again as it applies to remitted income.

 

An update to those who are genuinely interested in knowing what is happening - especially if DTAs are required to be used - which it looks like they will be.  It seems many people are thinking like in the West - the rules are this, so that happens - it does not work like that here. I strongly suggest reading @Dogmatix last post - this is a clusterphar.......

 

There is no online TRD process or document that allows an Expat to easily lodge a tax return using their country's DTA to exempt anything already taxed, or to claim any exemption or allowances included in their DTA with Thailand.  I have had it confirmed by 2 tax accountant organisations that if I want to lodge a tax return using any part of a DTA for exclusions or allowances or just plain exemptions, I will need to provide detailed techncial and legal information that will be almost impossible for a layman to do in Thailand - they said I will need to use their services and I believed them.  They both currently use DTAs in the tax returns that they do for overseas companies, and they have absolutely convinced me it will not be an easy thing to do for an 'ordinary' Expat.

 

I gave them the details of the financial situation for myself and my Thai wife, and they advised me that their probable costs to do a tax return using the Australian DTA would be - 70-80K and 80-90K.  I have that in writing if anyone wants to PM for a copy. 

 

It will NOT be a simple matter if Expats are forced to lodge a tax return by TRD/Thai Govt, if they need to use the DTA to either exempt or reduce their taxation liability to Thailand.  IMO TRD will not be creating an online DTA tax lodgment process/document according to both the tax experts. IMO as soon as TRD realised how hard it would be, given that there are 61 separate DTAs and all of them are different in some way, they threw up their hands and shut their mouths.  The tax experts showed me what I did not know - TRD are caught in a very hard place - they are being pushed by the Thai Govt to start making Thais and Expats pay more income taxes. Their new Boss (Ms.Kulaya Tantitemit) is being very compliant to the new Govt,  and like all Thai bosses she has the 'Picard Syndrome' and thinks if she says 'make it so' - it will just happen.

[MeePeeMai]

33 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Posted this is another thread about Thailand taxing even if not remitted - so am posting this here again as it applies to remitted income.

 

An update to those who are genuinely interested in knowing what is happening - especially if DTAs are required to be used - which it looks like they will be.  It seems many people are thinking like in the West - the rules are this, so that happens - it does not work like that here. I strongly suggest reading @Dogmatix last post - this is a clusterphar.......

 

There is no online TRD process or document that allows an Expat to easily lodge a tax return using their country's DTA to exempt anything already taxed, or to claim any exemption or allowances included in their DTA with Thailand.  I have had it confirmed by 2 tax accountant organisations that if I want to lodge a tax return using any part of a DTA for exclusions or allowances or just plain exemptions, I will need to provide detailed techncial and legal information that will be almost impossible for a layman to do in Thailand - they said I will need to use their services and I believed them.  They both currently use DTAs in the tax returns that they do for overseas companies, and they have absolutely convinced me it will not be an easy thing to do for an 'ordinary' Expat.

 

I gave them the details of the financial situation for myself and my Thai wife, and they advised me that their probable costs to do a tax return using the Australian DTA would be - 70-80K and 80-90K.  I have that in writing if anyone wants to PM for a copy. 

 

It will NOT be a simple matter if Expats are forced to lodge a tax return by TRD/Thai Govt, if they need to use the DTA to either exempt or reduce their taxation liability to Thailand.  IMO TRD will not be creating an online DTA tax lodgment process/document according to both the tax experts. IMO as soon as TRD realised how hard it would be, given that there are 61 separate DTAs and all of them are different in some way, they threw up their hands and shut their mouths.  The tax experts showed me what I did not know - TRD are caught in a very hard place - they are being pushed by the Thai Govt to start making Thais and Expats pay more income taxes. Their new Boss (Ms.Kulaya Tantitemit) is being very compliant to the new Govt,  and like all Thai bosses she has the 'Picard Syndrome' and thinks if she says 'make it so' - it will just happen.

 

True, and this is why I left Thailand and I will NEVER stay there more than 179 days in any given calendar year again, regardless of the latest rumor or slip of the tongue by some government official.  It's just not a risk I'm willing to take.  Like I said many times before, this could turn into a huge nightmare for some of us and a big nothing for others.  

[Mike Lister]

49 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Posted this is another thread about Thailand taxing even if not remitted - so am posting this here again as it applies to remitted income.

 

An update to those who are genuinely interested in knowing what is happening - especially if DTAs are required to be used - which it looks like they will be.  It seems many people are thinking like in the West - the rules are this, so that happens - it does not work like that here. I strongly suggest reading @Dogmatix last post - this is a clusterphar.......

 

There is no online TRD process or document that allows an Expat to easily lodge a tax return using their country's DTA to exempt anything already taxed, or to claim any exemption or allowances included in their DTA with Thailand.  I have had it confirmed by 2 tax accountant organisations that if I want to lodge a tax return using any part of a DTA for exclusions or allowances or just plain exemptions, I will need to provide detailed techncial and legal information that will be almost impossible for a layman to do in Thailand - they said I will need to use their services and I believed them.  They both currently use DTAs in the tax returns that they do for overseas companies, and they have absolutely convinced me it will not be an easy thing to do for an 'ordinary' Expat.

 

I gave them the details of the financial situation for myself and my Thai wife, and they advised me that their probable costs to do a tax return using the Australian DTA would be - 70-80K and 80-90K.  I have that in writing if anyone wants to PM for a copy. 

 

It will NOT be a simple matter if Expats are forced to lodge a tax return by TRD/Thai Govt, if they need to use the DTA to either exempt or reduce their taxation liability to Thailand.  IMO TRD will not be creating an online DTA tax lodgment process/document according to both the tax experts. IMO as soon as TRD realised how hard it would be, given that there are 61 separate DTAs and all of them are different in some way, they threw up their hands and shut their mouths.  The tax experts showed me what I did not know - TRD are caught in a very hard place - they are being pushed by the Thai Govt to start making Thais and Expats pay more income taxes. Their new Boss (Ms.Kulaya Tantitemit) is being very compliant to the new Govt,  and like all Thai bosses she has the 'Picard Syndrome' and thinks if she says 'make it so' - it will just happen.

I fail to see the basis for this continued fear mongering which is little more than opinion. It has no basis in fact, other than third hand opinion from two anonymous and unidentified tax accountants and subjective opinion that, things will it, "will not be a simple matter". There are no current first hand reports from anyone who tried to utilise a DTA option; there is no report from Big 4 or even small 4 accountancies regarding the complexity involved; there is no new information from the TRD regarding this process. All we have a personal subjective opinion from somebody who was the target of a services selling exercise and who is now concerned at the costs involved.

 

My recommendation is that everyone bide their time, quietly and patiently and ignore the rumours and scaremongering. In the fullness of time, either first hand reports will emerge or pertinent information will be announced.

[NoDisplayName]

If anyone is interested in online filing........

 

You can file online late for the past three years.

Simple returns can be completed in 10-15 minutes.

There is no late fee charged for online filing if no tax/refund due.

There is a 200 baht late filing fee if tax/refund due.

No documents required for upload when claiming dividends or interest from Thai sources.  You will need the payer tax ID number which should be available on documentation you have at home.

[stat]

1 hour ago, NoDisplayName said:

If anyone is interested in online filing........

 

You can file online late for the past three years.

Simple returns can be completed in 10-15 minutes.

There is no late fee charged for online filing if no tax/refund due.

There is a 200 baht late filing fee if tax/refund due.

No documents required for upload when claiming dividends or interest from Thai sources.  You will need the payer tax ID number which should be available on documentation you have at home.

Can you kindly provide the link to the online filing? Thanks!

[stat]

4 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I fail to see the basis for this continued fear mongering which is little more than opinion. It has no basis in fact, other than third hand opinion from two anonymous and unidentified tax accountants and subjective opinion that, things will it, "will not be a simple matter". There are no current first hand reports from anyone who tried to utilise a DTA option; there is no report from Big 4 or even small 4 accountancies regarding the complexity involved; there is no new information from the TRD regarding this process. All we have a personal subjective opinion from somebody who was the target of a services selling exercise and who is now concerned at the costs involved.

 

My recommendation is that everyone bide their time, quietly and patiently and ignore the rumours and scaremongering. In the fullness of time, either first hand reports will emerge or pertinent information will be announced.

I myself have invoked several dta and can tell you from experience it is very difficult. You call it fearmongering? How many DTA issues have you dealt with in the past? 

 

There are tons of reports about DTA usuage from the big 4 again you do not care:

 

https://kpmg.com/xx/en/home/insights/2023/01/withholding-tax-relief-and-refund-procedures.html

 

Even in highly tax wise sophisticated systems in Europe (inner EU even) it gets complicated and take years. Are you seriously suggesting TH is better equipped (IT, tax experts, multi language ability) then Germany, UK, Italy etc to handle DTA claims?

 

 

BTW: Why do you call every post here just an opinion? What differentiates your post from being just an opinion?

Edited July 7 by stat

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, stat said:

I myself have invoked several dta and can tell you from experience it is very difficult. You call it fearmongering? How many DTA issues have you dealt with in the past? 

 

There are tons of reports about DTA usuage from the big 4 again you do not care:

 

https://kpmg.com/xx/en/home/insights/2023/01/withholding-tax-relief-and-refund-procedures.html

 

Even in highly tax wise sophisticated systems in Europe (inner EU even) it gets complicated and take years. Are you seriously suggesting TH is better equipped (IT, tax experts, multi language ability) then Germany, UK, Italy etc to handle DTA claims?

 

 

BTW: Why do you call every post here just an opinion? What differentiates your post from being just an opinion?

Exactly how many DTA events have you invoked in Thailand....not Germany, not Europe, not Scandinavia....Thailand?

 

How many reports exist, Big 4 or otherwise, regarding DTA's being invoked by foreigners in their Thai tax returns and where are they please?

 

At this stage in the game, nobody understands how the TRD may handle DTA clauses that are invoked by foreigners, it could even be as simple as check and pass, nobody knows. And since nobody knows, there is no basis whatsoever for the earlier post that I criticised, ergo it is fear mongering and worst case scenario, nothing more.

 

 

[Klonko]

18 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Exactly how many DTA events have you invoked in Thailand....not Germany, not Europe, not Scandinavia....Thailand?

 

How many reports exist, Big 4 or otherwise, regarding DTA's being invoked by foreigners in their Thai tax returns and where are they please?

 

At this stage in the game, nobody understands how the TRD may handle DTA clauses that are invoked by foreigners, it could even be as simple as check and pass, nobody knows. And since nobody knows, there is no basis whatsoever for the earlier post that I criticised, ergo it is fear mongering and worst case scenario, nothing more.

 

 

May be it is wise not to remit DTA protected income in 2024 but keep it on a (non interest bearing) foreign account until TRD practice can be better anticipated.  

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, Klonko said:

May be it is wise not to remit DTA protected income in 2024 but keep it on a (non interest bearing) foreign account until TRD practice can be better anticipated.  

Yes, very sensible.

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, stat said:

Can you kindly provide the link to the online filing? Thanks!

 

Register your TIN/PIN for online filing.

https://efiling.rd.go.th/rd-cms/

 

Sign in to e-file.

https://efiling.rd.go.th/rd-efiling-web/login

[JimGant]

29 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

At this stage in the game, nobody understands how the TRD may handle DTA clauses that are invoked by foreigners, it could even be as simple as check and pass, nobody knows. And since nobody knows, there is no basis whatsoever for the earlier post that I criticised, ergo it is fear mongering and worst case scenario, nothing more.

Hear! Hear!

 

For Yanks, at least, the DTA with Thailand is straightforward (as are most, since they're based on OECD or UN Model treaty language, where every treaty is a 90% replica of all the others).

 

What's so difficult about excluding all income from Thai taxation that the treaty says is excludable, like govt pensions? Or for including income in Thai taxation, like a private pension, where the treaty says Thailand has exclusionary taxation rights on such income? This is pretty much straightforward guidance on how income is treated by two countries involved in a treaty. What could be hard about figuring out how this income is treated on each country's tax return..? And can be done without any reference from a DTA on the actual tax return.

 

But stat says he's had some difficulty invoking DTA guidance. Would love to hear what those circumstances were; I don't doubt they existed, but I'm just curious as to what they were, since my US DTA seems rather straightforward.

[Klonko]

3 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Hear! Hear!

 

For Yanks, at least, the DTA with Thailand is straightforward (as are most, since they're based on OECD or UN Model treaty language, where every treaty is a 90% replica of all the others).

 

What's so difficult about excluding all income from Thai taxation that the treaty says is excludable, like govt pensions? Or for including income in Thai taxation, like a private pension, where the treaty says Thailand has exclusionary taxation rights on such income? This is pretty much straightforward guidance on how income is treated by two countries involved in a treaty. What could be hard about figuring out how this income is treated on each country's tax return..? And can be done without any reference from a DTA on the actual tax return.

 

But stat says he's had some difficulty invoking DTA guidance. Would love to hear what those circumstances were; I don't doubt they existed, but I'm just curious as to what they were, since my US DTA seems rather straightforward.

The difficulty lies not in DTA exempt income, but in handling DTA tax credits, in particular if the tax credits only partially offset Thai tax payable.

[Mike Teavee]

18 minutes ago, JimGant said:

What's so difficult about excluding all income from Thai taxation that the treaty says is excludable

This is exactly how I understand DTAs to work in that they are for the "Filer" to use when working out how much "Assessable Income" they have (& as evidence should their return be challenged).

 

E.g. If I were a US guy receiving/remitting $3,000 pm from SS & one year remitted extra money that included $10,000 of Capital Gains (approx. 365,000 THB) that I hadn't paid tax on in the US, then I would ignore the SS (covered by DTA) & only report on the 365,000 Capital Gain.

Edited July 7 by Mike Teavee

[JimGant]

23 minutes ago, Klonko said:

The difficulty lies not in DTA exempt income, but in handling DTA tax credits, in particular if the tax credits only partially offset Thai tax payable.

Yes. For example, US DTA has Thailand as secondary taxation authority on my US rental income. So, Thailand has to absorb a tax credit for the US taxes paid on that rental income. If this credit exceeded what the Thai tax would be (as figured out on the back of an envelope) -- then, I could just ignore including any line item for taxable US rental income -- since, after the credit, there wouldn't be any.

 

The above scenario works well when netting out credits leaves a negative figure. But when a US tax credit doesn't erase all the Thai taxes due, you're kind of whistling in the wind on how to incorporate that US tax credit on your Thai tax return (since there's no provision for doing so). I guess you could jigger the rental income figure to, after taxation, reflect what it should be after absorbing the US credit. You'd be completely kosher here in paying Thailand all that's due on that rental income. But, trying to explain how you arrived at these figures would be an interesting discussion, should there be a subsequent audit.

 

Anyway, while the above seems somewhat mysterious, it is completely doable without hiring a 90k tax agent to navigate the mysteries of DTA tax reporting.

[Klonko]

54 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Yes. For example, US DTA has Thailand as secondary taxation authority on my US rental income. So, Thailand has to absorb a tax credit for the US taxes paid on that rental income. If this credit exceeded what the Thai tax would be (as figured out on the back of an envelope) -- then, I could just ignore including any line item for taxable US rental income -- since, after the credit, there wouldn't be any.

 

The above scenario works well when netting out credits leaves a negative figure. But when a US tax credit doesn't erase all the Thai taxes due, you're kind of whistling in the wind on how to incorporate that US tax credit on your Thai tax return (since there's no provision for doing so). I guess you could jigger the rental income figure to, after taxation, reflect what it should be after absorbing the US credit. You'd be completely kosher here in paying Thailand all that's due on that rental income. But, trying to explain how you arrived at these figures would be an interesting discussion, should there be a subsequent audit.

 

Anyway, while the above seems somewhat mysterious, it is completely doable without hiring a 90k tax agent to navigate the mysteries of DTA tax reporting.

In addition, Thailand may calculate net rental revenues (expenses, mortgage interest) different from your home country, adding to the complexity of correctly filing taxes in Thailand. The DTA route may be so cumbersome that it is only viable for larger remittances, which also would make tax agent fees bearable. I see the advantage of a tax agent less in doing the filing but ensuring that all possibly required documentation is at hand and negotiating with TRD in case of an audit.

[Mike Lister]

14 minutes ago, Klonko said:

In addition, Thailand may calculate net rental revenues (expenses, mortgage interest) different from your home country, adding to the complexity of correctly filing taxes in Thailand. The DTA route may be so cumbersome that it is only viable for larger remittances, which also would make tax agent fees bearable. I see the advantage of a tax agent less in doing the filing but ensuring that all possibly required documentation is at hand and negotiating with TRD in case of an audit.

There's a standard deduction option of 30% of gross income, to cover all rental income expenses.

[Klonko]

17 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

There's a standard deduction option of 30% of gross income, to cover all rental income expenses.

I know, but this can be less than the actual  cost to income - ratio, and there is no consistent  definition of gross income across countries. E.g. in my home country, there is net rent and  gross rent. The difference concerns costs which are ultimately passed on to the tenants. Income taxes are paid on net rents after deducting other costs and mortgage interest. Typical loan to value ratios for rental property is up to 60% I would like to neither discuss these subtleties with TRD nor pay a tax rate on fictional income.

[stat]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Exactly how many DTA events have you invoked in Thailand....not Germany, not Europe, not Scandinavia....Thailand?

 

How many reports exist, Big 4 or otherwise, regarding DTA's being invoked by foreigners in their Thai tax returns and where are they please?

 

At this stage in the game, nobody understands how the TRD may handle DTA clauses that are invoked by foreigners, it could even be as simple as check and pass, nobody knows. And since nobody knows, there is no basis whatsoever for the earlier post that I criticised, ergo it is fear mongering and worst case scenario, nothing more.

 

 

Again you are not answering the question I asked you. How many DTAs issues did you work with on a worldwide scale, I suspect zero. You should be well aware that up to know no DTAs for PIT were needed in TH still you ask me about exactly that.

 

If it is difficult in highly sophisticated tax jurisdisction who deal with it in the millions what do you think will happen in TH who is not prepared at all?

 

If you do not know anything as you stipulated why do you think there is nothing to fear? It should be exactly the opposite, if you do not know much about a subject better be well prepared and fear the worst. However we do know a lot about thai officialdom which is very strict and demands everything being documented with 3 copies notarized etc.

 

Again I asked what differentiates your opinion from others who you belittle as just mere opinions?

 

 

You are simply not answering questions so that people can judge on which experience your opinion is exactly based.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 7 by stat

[Mike Lister]

8 minutes ago, stat said:

Again you are not answering the question I asked you. How many DTAs issues did you work with on a worldwide scale, I suspect zero. You should be well aware that up to know no DTAs for PIT were needed in TH still you ask me about exactly that.

 

If it is difficult in highly sophisticated tax jurisdisction who deal with it in the millions what do you think will happen in TH who is not prepared at all?

 

If you do not know anything as you stipulated why do you think there is nothing to fear? It should be exactly the opposite, if you do not know much about a subject better be well prepared and fear the worst. However we do know a lot about thai officialdom which is very strict and demands everything being documented with 3 copies notarized etc.

 

Again I asked what differentiates your opinion from others who you belittle as just mere opinions?

 

 

You are simply not answering questions so that people can judge on which experience your opinion is exactly based.

 

 

 

 

 

Same old same old......yawn!

 

I have zero interest in asking or answering any of your questions....get used to it, go find somebody else to argue with.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[stat]

2 hours ago, JimGant said:

Hear! Hear!

 

For Yanks, at least, the DTA with Thailand is straightforward (as are most, since they're based on OECD or UN Model treaty language, where every treaty is a 90% replica of all the others).

 

What's so difficult about excluding all income from Thai taxation that the treaty says is excludable, like govt pensions? Or for including income in Thai taxation, like a private pension, where the treaty says Thailand has exclusionary taxation rights on such income? This is pretty much straightforward guidance on how income is treated by two countries involved in a treaty. What could be hard about figuring out how this income is treated on each country's tax return..? And can be done without any reference from a DTA on the actual tax return.

 

But stat says he's had some difficulty invoking DTA guidance. Would love to hear what those circumstances were; I don't doubt they existed, but I'm just curious as to what they were, since my US DTA seems rather straightforward.

Calculation of capital gains across different jurisdictions, getting the reduced rate on a withholding tax on a dividend, sending a declaration from a german Bank to Russia for proof that I am a tax resident of Germany with all necesary documentation from a credited translator including Apostilles etc. Only the last part takes about 3 complete working days with 8 hours each in total.

 

For a small glimpse of what you could be dealing in just getting your documents right:

 

https://www.hcch.net/de/instruments/conventions/specialised-sections/apostille

 

I strongly believe there will be not much trouble with US and UK pensions agreed. For all other monies and other nations pensions there will be big problems starting with a language barrier, if this tax directive comes to pass.

 

What do you think will happen if one show up with a German, swedish, french tax document and you want to claim a tax credit?

 

 

 

 

Edited July 7 by stat

[Mike Lister]

23 minutes ago, Klonko said:

I know, but this can be less than the actual  cost to income - ratio, and there is no consistent  definition of gross income across countries. E.g. in my home country, there is net rent and  gross rent. The difference concerns costs which are ultimately passed on to the tenants. Income taxes are paid on net rents after deducting other costs and mortgage interest. Typical loan to value ratios for rental property is up to 60% I would like to neither discuss these subtleties with TRD nor pay a tax rate on fictional income.

I understand, I also have rental income from overseas. I don't think the TRD is going to be too interested in how other countries interpret gross and net rent, they will have their own version that they will apply. I did the standard deduction math for my property rental income which comes out ever so slightly ahead of the actual costs, but that is likely to change year on year. It might well be, for the reasons you state, that claiming the standard deduction will avoid complicated debates and keep life simple, even if it means a small loss. Anything for a simple life.

[stat]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I understand, I also have rental income from overseas. I don't think the TRD is going to be too interested in how other countries interpret gross and net rent, they will have their own version that they will apply. I did the standard deduction math for my property rental income which comes out ever so slightly ahead of the actual costs, but that is likely to change year on year. It might well be, for the reasons you state, that claiming the standard deduction will avoid complicated debates and keep life simple, even if it means a small loss. Anything for a simple life.

It is even simpler then that because your UK rental income is just taxable in the UK. Apparently you did not look it up in the DBA...

[ChaiyaTH]

11 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I fail to see the basis for this continued fear mongering which is little more than opinion. It has no basis in fact, other than third hand opinion from two anonymous and unidentified tax accountants and subjective opinion that, things will it, "will not be a simple matter". There are no current first hand reports from anyone who tried to utilise a DTA option; there is no report from Big 4 or even small 4 accountancies regarding the complexity involved; there is no new information from the TRD regarding this process. All we have a personal subjective opinion from somebody who was the target of a services selling exercise and who is now concerned at the costs involved.

 

My recommendation is that everyone bide their time, quietly and patiently and ignore the rumours and scaremongering. In the fullness of time, either first hand reports will emerge or pertinent information will be announced.

So what you want to say, that we should just take the risk, because it is not cleared up, even the rules took effect since jan 1? I'm on the same page in terms of being able to risk that and see how it plays out by early next year, to then still be able to leave, even if not having paid this year.

 

But I am certainly not going to risk it for a second year, if the situation remains unclear, to then get a huge bill at year 3 or 5 etc etc. I already made arrangements anyway to live in VN most of the time or at least half of the time. Might even leave entirely, weed laws also not get better.

Edited July 7 by ChaiyaTH

[JimGant]

39 minutes ago, stat said:

It is even simpler then that because your UK rental income is just taxable in the UK. Apparently you did not look it up in the DBA...

Wrong. Here from the Thai-UK DTA:

Quote

Income from immovable property may be taxed in the Contracting State in which
such property is situated.

The term "may be taxed" is OECD speak for: Country A has primary taxation rights, but Country B has secondary taxation rights. If the treaty had said, "may ONLY be taxed", then Country A has exclusive taxation rights.

 

The US-UK DTA also has the "may be taxed" language for rental income. However, the technical explanation for this treaty goes on to explain:

Quote

This Article does not grant an exclusive taxing right to the situs State; the situs State is
merely given the primary right to tax.

 

So, for the UK-Thai DTA: The UK has primary taxation rights, and thus gets to keep all the taxes collected; while Thailand, with secondary rights, can also tax the rental income, but has to absorb a tax credit for the taxes paid to the UK -- meaning, of course, they may not collect anything, should the credit exceed the Thai tax amount.

[Mike Lister]

3 hours ago, ChaiyaTH said:

So what you want to say, that we should just take the risk, because it is not cleared up, even the rules took effect since jan 1? I'm on the same page in terms of being able to risk that and see how it plays out by early next year, to then still be able to leave, even if not having paid this year.

 

But I am certainly not going to risk it for a second year, if the situation remains unclear, to then get a huge bill at year 3 or 5 etc etc. I already made arrangements anyway to live in VN most of the time or at least half of the time. Might even leave entirely, weed laws also not get better.

What I think is that we should all try to avoid or at least minimise, DTA related remittances, until the picture becomes more clear which may well be before the end of this year. At the latest, first hand reports from the next tax filing season should clarify matters for many.

[Mike Lister]

3 hours ago, stat said:

It is even simpler then that because your UK rental income is just taxable in the UK. Apparently you did not look it up in the DBA...

As JG points out, no it is not.....whatever a DBA is! The point I was making, which was clear enough to everyone but you is that either way, it is horses for courses, hence, I do not really care whether I pay Thai or UK tax because the cost impact is virtually the same..

[Klonko]

9 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

What I think is that we should all try to avoid or at least minimise, DTA related remittances, until the picture becomes more clear which may well be before the end of this year. At the latest, first hand reports from the next tax filing season should clarify matters for many.

I fully agree for DTA tax credits but would feel very comfortable to remit DTA exempt income as of now, which unfortunately I do not have.