Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, bkk6060 said:

No it won't cuz my guess is Chinese and Russians either have no idea, or just will refuse to pay taxes.  Good luck if the government thinks they will.

 

Don't need to be resident in Thailand to buy a condo.  Many would be on a tourist visa/waiver, transferring money to buy property as a vacation spot.  Not tax resident = no PIT.

[KhunHeineken]

7 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

It's fine having an opinion and yes, you are entitled to it, but any opinion needs to be supported by logic and fact and not fly in the face of current data.

If you have data for a 2025 prediction, please post it. We are only a day into the year.  

 

While you are at it, please post the next Thai lottery winning numbers. I'm sure based on last year's winning numbers, the data will be accurate. 

 

[chiang mai]

Just now, KhunHeineken said:

If you have data for a 2025 prediction, please post it. We are only a day into the year.  

 

While you are at it, please post the next Thai lottery winning numbers. I'm sure based on last year's winning numbers, the data will be accurate. 

 

Stupid man.

[oldcpu]

49 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I have said that if someone was considering buying a property in Thailand, they may be best to hold off for a while to see if this tax is "rigidly enforced" or ends up a joke.  For me, that would be just part of due diligence. 

 

If this tax is enforced, can't you see it may knock a few out of the game here?  There's already foreigners living in places like Cambodia for example, because it more affordable.  

 

It can often be difficult to predict the future.

 

I recall when I purchased a condo in 2016 in Phuket (with intent to move to Phuket from Europe in 2017, upon a planned retirement), and advise was given to me to NOT buy:

 

1.  Some stated never buy in Thailand for first year or so after a move to Thailand - - ALWAYS rent first.  Nominally - I think ok advice, although in my case I had lived previous in Thailand from 1997 to 1999, and at the time (in 2016) I had been married to my Thai wife for 15 years, and every year we visited Thailand for a few weeks.  So I think that 'specific don't buy' advise was not really applicable to myself, and

 

2. another friend (who claimed to know ins-outs of Thailand, pushed the view the Thai economy and real estate market would 'tank' and 'collapse' when the previous King passed away (where the King was very ill then).  I couldn't see the same royal connection on the economy that they insisted was correct.  Well we have a new Thai King, and the Thai economy doesn't appear to be significantly worse as a result.  It did not hurt the real-estate market. So I saw then (and see now) that as a mistaken view.

 

Now I view the possibility of taxation more serious wrt a risk of an impact - but I am not (yet) a believer we will see a big impact on most expatriates.   I do thou note I don't have a good sense on the financial situation of most expatriates, which makes the future difficult to predict.

 

Also, often when laws are applied, there is a grandfather clause, and I speculate (where 'speculate is the operative word' ) that any who bring in pre-1-Jan-2024 (savings/income) money into Thailand now to purchase a condo, are not likely to have a tax issue with the money they brought in.  Further,  I note paw-161 as I speculate on this.  Having typed that, I agree that as years go by, paw-161 likely will be less relevant in regards taxation on income/savings.

 

Further, having lived in Thailand, I note many times changes are talked about but do not come to pass.  I suspect most expatiates note that - which does leave uncertainty.

 

Still, given paw-161 ( 'exempting' one's pre-1-Jan-2024 foreign savings from Thai tax), and given many times talk about tax changes doesn't come to pass - I believe it premature to caution future condo buyers to pause.  

 

of course this is based on my speculation.  One needs to make their own judgement call.  I could be wrong. Further I am not tracking the real estate market - and maybe its over priced ... I do recall how it was here in Thailand in the second half of 1997.

 

I also note, that if I had MISTAKENLY waited until today, to purchase the condo that I purchased in 2016, it would have cost me 30% to 35% more today - so I am glad I did not listen to the 'nay sayers' who stated to me then not to buy  -  but they advised me to wait.  Since 2016 I have obtained decent use of my condo.  Buying then was a smart move the way things turned out.

 

Its really difficult to predict the future.

 

49 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I've said for some time now that the day is coming the 800k / 400k / 65k will increase.  It's been at these levels for decades.  That would also knock a few out of the game, but that left for another thread. 

 

Basically, by raising the cost of being allowed to live in Thailand, you attract people with more money.  Right? 

 

I also tend to agree the 800k / 400k / 65k could increase in the future.  Possibly sooner than many would like. My hope is such does not happen - and again , my agreement could be wrong.

 

For those expatriates who don't have business nor family ties with Thailand, and whose health is not an issue, then spending only 49% of the year in Thailand, and 51% in 2 or more countries, could be an interesting life choice.  There is a LOT to different countries in this world, there is a LOT to experience, and if one has the financial resources without the family ties, then seeing the world is a dream of many of us.

 

With regard to Thailand attempting to attract those with money, sometimes I speculate that perhaps there are different business and social forces pulling within Thailand, and while some in the Thai government wish to attract foreigners with their money, ... others might only want to attract the foreign money without the foreigners.  But that is pure speculation by me.

 

Interesting times, and I hope that when the dust settles considering these potential changes, that the impact will be minimal. But that is only a hope. 

 

I for one, can't see the future.  I can only speculate.

[newnative]

14 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

No it won't cuz my guess is Chinese and Russians either have no idea, or just will refuse to pay taxes.  Good luck if the government thinks they will.

    Agree.  And, the majority of the property sales lately have been to Chinese and Russian buyers.  The last house my spouse and I sold, this past year, was to a Russian buyer.  Most of the potential buyers we had were either Russian or Chinese, as well. 

    If Pattaya is any indication, there doesn't seem to be any decline in sales.  Several large, new condo projects have been recently announced, these in addition to some large projects just completed or under construction.  Here on the Darkside, a number of new housing projects have been sold out fairly quickly, including the new one we are in. 

    I know this because my spouse and I have been looking for a new house, either a recent build or one about to start, and we have been looking at lots of new projects around Lake Mabprachan and adjoining areas.  In some cases the projects were sold out or nearly sold out by the time we heard about them and got around to checking them out.  Construction is booming here on the Darkside.  

[topt]

22 minutes ago, newnative said:

If Pattaya is any indication, there doesn't seem to be any decline in sales. 

No idea about sales but land on a cut through soi between Diana Estates (near Suk) and Khun le Fan (so just north of Big C Extra) which has been vacant for more than 15 years is now being filled with a number of separate "pool villa" developments. There are a lot of Korean establishments there so I am thinking the money may have come from them but could be anybody.

 

In the overall scheme of things the nos. will not be huge but this has all happened in the last 6 months. 

[newnative]

50 minutes ago, topt said:

No idea about sales but land on a cut through soi between Diana Estates (near Suk) and Khun le Fan (so just north of Big C Extra) which has been vacant for more than 15 years is now being filled with a number of separate "pool villa" developments. There are a lot of Korean establishments there so I am thinking the money may have come from them but could be anybody.

 

In the overall scheme of things the nos. will not be huge but this has all happened in the last 6 months. 

     Most of the new projects on the Darkside are also pool villas.   Unlike, say, large projects like Siam Royal View, I would say the majority of the new projects are smaller developments of around 30 houses or less.   I think this is partly because very large tracts in good locations are getting more expensive and harder to find and smaller projects can be less risky, cheaper, easier, and quicker to develop and finish.

    The current project where I live, 28 pool villas, is a good example.  The developer has done at least 10 projects on the Darkside in the last few years, with 4 or 5 more currently building or in the ground clearing stage.  Most of her projects are between 15 and 30 units in size.  

    Although only begun in 2023, all the land plots and houses have been sold, with the last 4 houses now under construction.   It's a real United Nations, with buyers from China, Russia, Ireland, Dubai, Holland, Israel, America, India, Britain, and Thailand, of those I know of.  China, Russia, India, and the US have multiple buyers.

    Many earlier Darkside projects were inexpensive bungalow types on land plots of 50 to 60 sq. wah, with under 5MB price tags.  Lots of the newer developments are on larger plots of 100 or more sq. wah, with bigger houses sporting pools.  And, bigger price tags in the 10MB and over range.  More than a few of the new developments are in the 20 to 50MB range.  

     Although one project of 28 homes, or one condo project, may not have much impact, when you multiply that by hundreds of new projects, it definitely does.  The housing industry is hugely important to an economy, employing large numbers of workers in so many fields and industries way too numerous to list.   Collectively, these projects are vital to keeping the housing industry healthy.

     

     

[topt]

3 hours ago, newnative said:

Most of her projects

Is this Poom Patta (or similar name) by any chance?

[jmd8800]

On 12/30/2024 at 7:44 PM, jayboy said:

 

What would you consider to be a reasonable all in fee for getting a TIN and arranging filing on behalf of an expatriate - assuming there are no particular complications? I'd say Bt 10,000 first year and Bt 7000 thereafter.

I've had two quotes and my tax forms are simple. Both include obtaining a Tax ID. 13,800 and 15,000.

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, jmd8800 said:

I've had two quotes and my tax forms are simple. Both include obtaining a Tax ID. 13,800 and 15,000.

Outrageous

[Jingthing]

Dealing with taxation for expats has always been a rich cash cow segment of the tax market.

It's tailored for the wealthy.

That's a big part of what has pissed me off about needing to file here when I do. My expectation that lawyers and tax experts will likely cost me more than the tax.

[chiang mai]

5 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Dealing with taxation for expats has always been a rich cash cow segment of the tax market.

It's tailored for the wealthy.

That's a big part of what has pissed me off about needing to file here when I do. My expectation that lawyers and tax experts will likely cost me more than the tax.

So find a different path. When/if we get sight of the new forms, we can start to put up templates that people can follow, it isn't rocket science.

[KhunHeineken]

21 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Stupid man.

Why resort to insults?

 

Property markets, all around the world, are effected by external factors. 

 

Say Thai banks raise interest rates 2, 3 or 4% over the next year.  Thai's can't afford their mortgage, so foreclosures across the country, a glut of property on the market, prices go down.

 

Say the Thai government pull the pin on the ticking time bomb that is foreigners using Thai nominees.  Told to sell the property or it will be confiscated etc.  A glut of property on the market, prices go down. 

 

Stay the Thai government announce a new land / property tax.  Property becomes a less attractive investment, so owners bail out causing a glut of property on the market, prices go down. 

 

Say China goes into Taiwan.  That would have interesting consequences for Thailand. 

 

Terrorist attacks, natural disasters etc etc etc etc. All have an effect on the property market in the short / long term.  History shows this, in every country. 

 

It also can work in reverse.  Remember when car manufacturing companies where considering leaving Thailand some years ago?  In order to keep them, the Thai government lowered taxes and offered incentives to buy a new car.  New car sales spiked, and a year later there were a lot of defaults and a glut on the secondhand car market. 

 

Point being, as said, external forces can have an impact on the property market. 

 

Now here's the Thai government announcing a tax on remitted funds.  Just imagine a retiree selling up and scrapping up their life savings to buy a condo in Thailand, and then living fortnightly / monthly on their pension, only to be hit with a tax bill the year after for hundreds of thousands of baht, which they may not be able to afford.  Would you not advise such a person to hold off?

 

It's been said many times over many years, come to Thailand and rent in the building / area you like before you buy.  I suggest many should do that AND to also see how this tax unfolds to know the true cost of the property they are considering buying.

 

I have said this of buying a new vehicle, and also mentioned that any unforeseen medical operation could cost more also.

 

My question remains.  How can YOU know the property sales data for 2025 when we are only two days into 2025, yet, call me a "stupid man?"

[chiang mai]

Just now, KhunHeineken said:

Why resort to insults?

 

Property markets, all around the world, are effected by external factors. 

 

Say Thai banks raise interest rates 2, 3 or 4% over the next year.  Thai's can't afford their mortgage, so foreclosures across the country, a glut of property on the market, prices go down.

 

Say the Thai government pull the pin on the ticking time bomb that is foreigners using Thai nominees.  Told to sell the property or it will be confiscated etc.  A glut of property on the market, prices go down. 

 

Stay the Thai government announce a new land / property tax.  Property becomes a less attractive investment, so owners bail out causing a glut of property on the market, prices go down. 

 

Say China goes into Taiwan.  That would have interesting consequences for Thailand. 

 

Terrorist attacks, natural disasters etc etc etc etc. All have an effect on the property market in the short / long term.  History shows this, in every country. 

 

It also can work in reverse.  Remember when car manufacturing companies where considering leaving Thailand some years ago?  In order to keep them, the Thai government lowered taxes and offered incentives to buy a new car.  New car sales spiked, and a year later there were a lot of defaults and a glut on the secondhand car market. 

 

Point being, as said, external forces can have an impact on the property market. 

 

Now here's the Thai government announcing a tax on remitted funds.  Just imagine a retiree selling up and scrapping up their life savings to buy a condo in Thailand, and then living fortnightly / monthly on their pension, only to be hit with a tax bill the year after for hundreds of thousands of baht, which they may not be able to afford.  Would you not advise such a person to hold off?

 

It's been said many times over many years, come to Thailand and rent in the building / area you like before you buy.  I suggest many should do that AND to also see how this tax unfolds to know the true cost of the property they are considering buying.

 

I have said this of buying a new vehicle, and also mentioned that any unforeseen medical operation could cost more also.

 

My question remains.  How can YOU know the property sales data for 2025 when we are only two days into 2025, yet, call me a "stupid man?"

Blah blah blah. Say you stop hypothesising about every wild thought that comes into your head and every imaginable worst case scenario you can think of and start being more realistic

[Jingthing]

9 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

So find a different path. When/if we get sight of the new forms, we can start to put up templates that people can follow, it isn't rocket science.

I haven't filled out a U.S. tax return myself without a preparer or software for decades so I seriously doubt doing it myself will really be practical for me here either.

[chiang mai]

5 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I haven't filled out a U.S. tax return myself without a preparer or software for decades so I seriously doubt doing it myself will really be practical for me here either.

I know this is not beyond your skill and ability level JT, I just know.......we'll help.

[stat]

23 hours ago, chiang mai said:

 

Chinese buyers by a massive margin, followed by Russia:

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1364907/thailand-number-of-condos-sold-to-foreigners-by-country-of-origin/

 

Thanks! This is something we westerners tend to forget. These guys (chinese, russians, etc) they tend to buy a thai condo not to make money or save money they buy just to get money out of their home country as they are afraid their government will confiscate their money at home at will.

[stat]

23 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

No it won't cuz my guess is Chinese and Russians either have no idea, or just will refuse to pay taxes.  Good luck if the government thinks they will.

If you have a condo in Thailand and do not pay taxes what do you think will happen? Next time you step on the ground in Thailand you will have either to donate a BIG brown envelope or you visit the BKK Hilton. Key board warriors turning into desperados is usally a bad idea.

[KhunHeineken]

15 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Blah blah blah. Say you stop hypothesising about every wild thought that comes into your head and every imaginable worst case scenario you can think of and start being more realistic

The world has just experienced high inflation and living costs, and my country, Australia, as well as others, had the shortest and sharpest increase in interest rates in over a decade, causing mortgages to become unaffordable to many, so they sell, and you think it's "hypothesizing" and "worse case scenario."  

 

What planet are you on???? 

[KhunHeineken]

8 minutes ago, stat said:

Thanks! This is something we westerners tend to forget. These guys (chinese, russians, etc) they tend to buy a thai condo not to make money or save money they buy just to get money out of their home country as they are afraid their government will confiscate their money at home at will.

I accept this, but if that money is "parked" in Thai property, it's causing a "bubble" is it not?  

[EVENKEEL]

48 minutes ago, jmd8800 said:

I've had two quotes and my tax forms are simple. Both include obtaining a Tax ID. 13,800 and 15,000.

Sounds like a bargain to me.

[jayboy]

42 minutes ago, jmd8800 said:

I've had two quotes and my tax forms are simple. Both include obtaining a Tax ID. 13,800 and 15,000.

 

Even Bt 13,800 seems on the high side.However having obtained the TIN, subsequent annual filings should be cheaper - say Bt 7000. In your position (and actually it reflects my own) I would probably pay an accountant to obtain my TIN and process the first filing and thereafter do it myself with the first filing as a guide.

 

 

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, jmd8800 said:

I've had two quotes and my tax forms are simple. Both include obtaining a Tax ID. 13,800 and 15,000.

Are those prices just to obtain a Tax ID and to file, or those prices including making any tax liability you may have disappear as well? Serious question.   

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

So find a different path. When/if we get sight of the new forms, we can start to put up templates that people can follow, it isn't rocket science.

Fillable 10.1  Application for TIN

 

https://www.expattaxthailand.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/lp10.1_110355.pdf

 

Use your google translate or hire a helper, fill out and print.

Stop by your bank and get a 2024 interest tax withholding statement.

Go to local TRD apply for TIN if needed.  It's FREE, as is bank statement.

Your interest tax refund is your 'necessary' if need for TIN questioned.

[The Cyclist]

43 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

Even Bt 13,800 seems on the high side.However having obtained the TIN, subsequent annual filings should be cheaper - say Bt 7000. In your position (and actually it reflects my own) I would probably pay an accountant to obtain my TIN and process the first filing and thereafter do it myself with the first filing as a guide.

 

 

I have no horror stories to recite over Immigration.

 

My single visit to the RD Office was polite and rather easy.

 

I would take all my paperwork, a box of doughnuts, puppy dog eyes, a Thai speaker if needed and simply ask for assistance.

 

I'm sure someone would assist you, rather than paying 15k baht or so, to an accountant.

[NoDisplayName]

On 12/30/2024 at 7:44 PM, jayboy said:

 

What would you consider to be a reasonable all in fee for getting a TIN and arranging filing on behalf of an expatriate - assuming there are no particular complications? I'd say Bt 10,000 first year and Bt 7000 thereafter.

 

Depends.

 

How complicated are your returns?

 

Do you have any Thai-sourced income other than interest/dividends where tax has already been withheld?

 

How much total remittance over the year, and how much is assessable?  If not assessable (savings prior to 2024, most government pensions), it doesn't go on the tax return.

[KhunHeineken]

23 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I have no horror stories to recite over Immigration.

 

My single visit to the RD Office was polite and rather easy.

 

I would take all my paperwork, a box of doughnuts, puppy dog eyes, a Thai speaker if needed and simply ask for assistance.

 

I'm sure someone would assist you, rather than paying 15k baht or so, to an accountant.

It depends what "magic" AKA "tea money" an agent or accountant can pay to make a bigger tax liability disappear.  Right?  Then, it becomes financially beneficial to pay the agent / accountant.

 

As I have said, numerous times, the TRD may just want their snouts in the trough in the same way immigration have had them in the trough for decades, and let's not forget, the money goes all the way to the top. 

 

So, create a new revenue stream, taxing foreigners on remittances, then offer them a "black" way out of paying the full price, no receipt of course, they get their Tax Clearance Certificate for their extension, and the Thai's are happy. The foreigners less so, but still better than one paying their actual tax liability. 

 

Cha-Ching.  

[jayboy]

30 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I have no horror stories to recite over Immigration.

 

My single visit to the RD Office was polite and rather easy.

 

I would take all my paperwork, a box of doughnuts, puppy dog eyes, a Thai speaker if needed and simply ask for assistance.

 

I'm sure someone would assist you, rather than paying 15k baht or so, to an accountant.

 

It's a perfectly fair approach and, assuming no complicated tax issues involved, one that I might adopt.

 

Probably there is quite a lot that could be done in preparation in assembling documents.

 

 

 

 

[The Cyclist]

19 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

So, create a new revenue stream, taxing foreigners on remittances, then offer them a "black" way out of paying the full price, no receipt of course, they get their Tax Clearance Certificate for their extension, and the Thai's are happy.

 

As I said before. There will be many, many expat retirees who legitimately have no reason to file a tax return.

 

There might also be a large number of retiree expats who might have to file a tax return but have no tax liability.

 

So the tax  clearance certificate for extension purposes, would not work in theory, and it is not something that I have I seen mentioned from any other source, other than a couple of posters on here.

 

Whilst it could be something that is introduced, they would also have to introduce something that covers the people mentioned above.

 

Therefore it is not something that I envision happening until such times as they make a decision and then impliment worldwide taxation at some time in the future / if ever.

[stat]

22 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Please show me where I used the words, or even suggested "rigid enforcement."  You are misquoting me.

 

I was the one who put forward all this may be is an earner from the TRD for a Certificate of  Clearance for say 500 baht, like the Certificate of Residence.  Anything could happen.  We don't know at this stage. 

 

I have said that if someone was considering buying a property in Thailand, they may be best to hold off for a while to see if this tax is "rigidly enforced" or ends up a joke.  For me, that would be just part of due diligence. 

 

If this tax is enforced, can't you see it may knock a few out of the game here?  There's already foreigners living in places like Cambodia for example, because it more affordable.  

 

If enforced, this tax makes living in Thailand more expensive for many.  Do you agree or disagree, and note I said more expensive, not unaffordable, and more expensive means even 1 baht more expensive, which shows collection and enforcement will be in place. 

 

I've said for some time now that the day is coming the 800k / 400k / 65k will increase.  It's been at these levels for decades.  That would also knock a few out of the game, but that left for another thread. 

 

Basically, by raising the cost of being allowed to live in Thailand, you attract people with more money.  Right? 

FYI officially Cambodia taxes the ww income not just the remitted income. I understand that currently this is seldom if ever enforced however the potential tax bill could be far bigger in Cambodia.