Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[chiang mai]

An interesting read on taxation, written by HR of all people....informative.

 

https://www.internationalhradviser.com/storage/downloads/Taxing Issues Expatriate Myths.pdf

[topt]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

.informative.

If you had said interesting I may have agreed but is it really "informative" to most of us as individuals?

It seems to be written more from a corporate HR perspective which I understand considering his position.

 

I am sorry if that comes across as negative but I really don't think it adds anything to the current situation and understanding for most posters. I could well be proved wrong there 

[stat]

3 hours ago, chiang mai said:

I don't think the TRD cares about what happens outside of its borders. What it knows is that consideration was given for goods or services that were received, inside Thailand. The way the purchaser intends to reimburse the lender abroad is of no concern to TRD. What if the buyer obtained a cash advance on their credit card and then paid cash for those goods or services, the overseas lender would still have to be reimbursed but this was a cash transaction, is it still not assessable?

We franky do not know. No one knows currently. CC transactions is similar to  gifts, money was brought into TH but will not be taxed. COULD be the same for cc. Nota bene if I get a loan and pay it back only the profit part will be taxes but there is no profit. In the extreme case I do not repay the loan until 10 years later. Again this was the way for rich thais in the past decades! So before someone shouts this loophole will be closed has to think why other loopholes were not closed for the last decades.

[Roo Island]

3 hours ago, chiang mai said:

An interesting read on taxation, written by HR of all people....informative.

 

https://www.internationalhradviser.com/storage/downloads/Taxing Issues Expatriate Myths.pdf

One myth is if you are in a country less than 183 days you are not a rax resident. Depends.

[EVENKEEL]

Lets say somehow "they" know you stayed the amount needed to be considered a tax resident. Should they not also have a list of overstayers? Seems they only catch an overstayer because of an incident and they actually check his passport. Yet we are to believe these same people will know random people's resident status.

[chiang mai]

3 hours ago, topt said:

If you had said interesting I may have agreed but is it really "informative" to most of us as individuals?

It seems to be written more from a corporate HR perspective which I understand considering his position.

 

I am sorry if that comes across as negative but I really don't think it adds anything to the current situation and understanding for most posters. I could well be proved wrong there 

Except perhaps the 183 day rule part.

[toums]

1 hour ago, Roo Island said:

One myth is if you are in a country less than 183 days you are not a rax resident. Depends.

 

Yep for some countries. But Thailand has, in the tax law, ONLY one situation than can make you tax resident or not, in TH.

 

180 days+ in a calendar year in the kingdom : TH tax resident

179 days or less in a calendar year in the kingdom : no TH tax resident.

 

Cannot be more simple.

[Roo Island]

Just now, toums said:

 

Yep for some countries. But Thailand has, in the tax law, ONLY one situation than can make you tax resident or not, in TH.

 

180 days+ in a calendar year in the kingdom : TH tax resident

179 days or less in a calendar year in the kingdom : no TH tax resident.

 

Cannot be more simple.

Many other countries say even if you are not in the country for more than 183 days  if you are in that country more than any other. You are a tax resident

[toums]

On 8/30/2024 at 4:23 AM, beammeup said:

If next year I am tax resident and  I remitt enough savings to live on (greater than 60k+150K) but they are savings from before Jan 1 2024, so not assessable. Do I still need to do a tax return the next year?

 

Or simply just remit this amount THIS year (2024). As you are not TH tax resident in 2024, then it's even easier and no proof to give as you spent less than 180days in TH in 2024.

[Roo Island]

https://www.cpasforexpats.com/post/us-thailand-tax-treaty

 

    Permanent Home Test: The first consideration is whether the individual has a permanent home available to them in one of the countries. If a permanent home is available in only one country, that country is generally considered the individual's country of residence for tax purposes.

    Centre of vital interests Test: If the individual has a permanent home in both countries or in neither country, the treaty looks at where the individuals center of vital interests lies, in other words, where they have a closer personal and economic interests.

    Habitual Abode Test: If the individual has a center of vital interests in both countries or in neither country, the treaty looks at where the individual has a habitual abode; in other words, where they live regularly. This could be where they spend more time or where they have a regular presence.

    Nationality Test: If the individual has a habitual abode in both countries or in neither, the next factor considered is nationality. If the person is a citizen of only one of the countries, that country is typically considered their country of residence for tax purposes.

    Mutual Agreement Procedure: In the rare case that the individual is a citizen of both countries or of neither, and the above tests do not resolve the issue of residency, the competent authorities of the United States and Thailand will determine the individual's residency through a mutual agreement, taking into account the person's facts and circumstances.

[toums]

7 minutes ago, Roo Island said:

Many other countries say even if you are not in the country for more than 183 days  if you are in that country more than any other. You are a tax resident

 

Yes, but this is of topic with Thailand.

 

Some countries in Europe (France, Spain etc...) considers also if you have your main economic center of interest, or your wife/kids still living there etc.. yes you can be still considerated at tax resident in your origin country. Then if there is a dispute, they have the check the DTT/DTA between the 2 countries.

 

BUT once again, it's not related to the Thailand side. TH tax laws are clear for that. It's not about if you spend more time in TH than any other place (if you are still less than 180 days in TH per calendar year). No matter, if you have wife or kids in TH or any interests. The ONLY rule for tax residency, as individual, in Thailand is 180+ days in any calendar year or not. 

[JimTripper]

Can somebody summarize for me? I don't have time to read the thread. I have been here over 2 years, do I need to file and when?

[ukrules]

1 hour ago, toums said:

 

Yep for some countries. But Thailand has, in the tax law, ONLY one situation than can make you tax resident or not, in TH.

 

180 days+ in a calendar year in the kingdom : TH tax resident

179 days or less in a calendar year in the kingdom : no TH tax resident.

 

Cannot be more simple.

 

Indeed, there is an exception though and that's if you earn money locally. they will want their pound of flesh even if you're working in Thailand for a week. That's not going to change your residency though - less than 180 days, even for Thai citizens is solid.

 

Many other countries make it much harder to avoid any tax but in Thailand it's simple if you have no local income and are non resident.

[toums]

7 minutes ago, ukrules said:

 

Indeed, there is an exception though and that's if you earn money locally. they will want their pound of flesh even if you're working in Thailand for a week. That's not going to change your residency though - less than 180 days, even for Thai citizens is solid.

 

Many other countries make it much harder to avoid any tax but in Thailand it's simple if you have no local income and are non resident.

 

Correct. But even if you have TH local income, it doesnt make you tax resident in the country. Ofc you have to pay the taxes related to these income locally. But it's the same everywhere. Tax resident or not, if you have income in any country, you pay the taxes locally for these incomes.

[Roo Island]

1 hour ago, toums said:

 

Yes, but this is of topic with Thailand.

 

Some countries in Europe (France, Spain etc...) considers also if you have your main economic center of interest, or your wife/kids still living there etc.. yes you can be still considerated at tax resident in your origin country. Then if there is a dispute, they have the check the DTT/DTA between the 2 countries.

 

BUT once again, it's not related to the Thailand side. TH tax laws are clear for that. It's not about if you spend more time in TH than any other place (if you are still less than 180 days in TH per calendar year). No matter, if you have wife or kids in TH or any interests. The ONLY rule for tax residency, as individual, in Thailand is 180+ days in any calendar year or not. 

Read my previous post. Not easy to discern

[Roo Island]

27 minutes ago, JimTripper said:

Can somebody summarize for me? I don't have time to read the thread. I have been here over 2 years, do I need to file and when?

Are you in Thailand more than 180 days? If so, you are a tax resident

[toums]

1 hour ago, Roo Island said:

Read my previous post. Not easy to discern

OFFICIAL TRD 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/6045.html 

 

" 1.Taxable Person

Taxpayers are classified into “resident” and “non-resident”. “Resident” means any person residing in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating more than 180 days in any tax (calendar) year. A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand. A non-resident is, however, subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand. "

[EVENKEEL]

2 hours ago, JimTripper said:

Can somebody summarize for me? I don't have time to read the thread. I have been here over 2 years, do I need to file and when?

Immediately go to your nearest tax office and demand a tax form. Don't take no for an answer.

[bkk6060]

57 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Immediately go to your nearest tax office and demand a tax form. Don't take no for an answer.

Yes, and if denied get the name of the employee and video their rejection.  Protect yourself from a possible 10 year audit.

[chiang mai]

The 183 day reference in the article posted earlier isn't applicable to most people, 180 days residency in a single tax year determines tax residency for most. But some people can be regarded as tax resident here earlier than 183 days, company directors and business owners being one, depending on a number of factors.

 

The implications here are on people who own their own business for trading purposes, contractors and the like who can be regarded as tax resident, from the very first day. In case anyone was thinking that they could escape the 180 day rule, just because they are not an employee....you can't. The risk is to some classes of employed people who can be considered tax resident SOONER than 183 days, not later.

[chiang mai]

An example from India where the government now considers foreign credit card transactions as taxable (three months ago).

 

"The Government of India recently introduced a significant change that directly impacts individuals' overseas spending. Under the newly amended Foreign Exchange Management Act (FEMA), all international credit card transactions made in foreign currency now fall under the Liberalised Remittance Scheme (LRS). This alteration introduces a set of rules that need to be understood by Indian residents who frequently use international credit cards for their purchases".

 

https://www.business-standard.com/finance/personal-finance/banks-seek-delay-on-taxing-overseas-card-spends-how-20-tcs-impacts-you-124053000106_1.html

 

Plus anecdotal information on the same subject regarding Japan where the remittance is allegedly not regarded as income but may still be taxable:

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/JapanFinance/comments/1b111xj/is_using_a_us_credit_card_in_japan_considered/

 

[chiang mai]

This word remittance is annoying me again, some people don't appear to understand its meaning or definition. 

 

To "remit" is to send money to a person or place, a "remittance" is what is sent or received. Remittance doesn't define or say anything about the sender or the receiver, nor about what is sent other than it is funds in the form of cash (banknotes), electronic funds transfer or credit.

 

"What is Bank Remittance?

 

The term 'remittance' is derived from 'remit', meaning 'to send back'. A bank remittance refers to the funds sent or transferred to another entity or account as payment for services or a product. Remittances can also be personal money transfers made to family and friends overseas and any sort of business payments".

 

https://www.dbs.com/digibank/in/articles/pay/bank-remittance-vs-bank-transfer

 

[Yumthai]

37 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

This word remittance is annoying me again, some people don't appear to understand its meaning or definition. 

 

To "remit" is to send money to a person or place, a "remittance" is what is sent or received. Remittance doesn't define or say anything about the sender or the receiver, nor about what is sent other than it is funds in the form of cash (banknotes), electronic funds transfer or credit.

 

"What is Bank Remittance?

 

The term 'remittance' is derived from 'remit', meaning 'to send back'. A bank remittance refers to the funds sent or transferred to another entity or account as payment for services or a product. Remittances can also be personal money transfers made to family and friends overseas and any sort of business payments".

 

https://www.dbs.com/digibank/in/articles/pay/bank-remittance-vs-bank-transfer

The English (or any other language) transcription of the Thai Law is irrelevant and could have been translated to the closest meaning without being able to transcript exactly Thai language wording and sense. Thai language has no straight meaning and is way of interpretation, and that is largely used in one way or another by authorities and lawyers. That's part of the Thai culture as well as compromise and needs to be understood by anyone living in Thailand. There is no consistency, no certainty but at the end of the day the sky is not falling.

 

 

[chiang mai]

9 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

The English (or any other language) transcription of the Thai Law is irrelevant and could have been translated to the closest meaning without being able to transcript exactly Thai language wording and sense. Thai language has no straight meaning and is way of interpretation, and that is largely used in one way or another by authorities and lawyers. That's part of the Thai culture as well as compromise and needs to be understood by anyone living in Thailand. There is no consistency, no certainty but at the end of the day the sky is not falling.

 

 

I agree but I can't help but think that sometimes we over think these things and look for problems where none exist, because of near paranoia.

[Yumthai]

3 hours ago, chiang mai said:

The implications here are on people who own their own business for trading purposes, contractors and the like who can be regarded as tax resident, from the very first day. In case anyone was thinking that they could escape the 180 day rule, just because they are not an employee....you can't. The risk is to some classes of employed people who can be considered tax resident SOONER than 183 days, not later.

Contractors and business owners will not be considered tax residents if they remain less than 180 days/year in Thailand, however their business activity while in Thailand could be considered as local work therefore any proceeds from their work wherever it is paid could be local income and taxable as such.

[chiang mai]

11 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Contractors and business owners will not be considered tax residents if they remain less than 180 days/year in Thailand, however their business activity while in Thailand could be considered as local work therefore any proceeds from their work wherever it is paid could be local income and taxable as such.

When the company is the person, it's splitting hairs as to whether the person or the business is being taxed don't you think.

[hotandsticky]

3 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

When the company is the person, it's splitting hairs as to whether the person or the business is being taxed don't you think.

 

 

No.

 

 

Totally different legal identities.

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, hotandsticky said:

 

 

No.

 

 

Totally different legal identities.

Of course they are, it's still splitting hairs financially

[TroubleandGrumpy]

18 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

I believe you are Australian.  Correct me if I am wrong.  

 

Not all pensions are treated equally. 

 

Government aged pensions are not treated the same way as occupation pensions are in the Australia / Thailand DTA.

 

Yes, the old Article 18 being subject to the provisions of Article 19 in the DTA. 

 

 

 

Watch between 16 minutes to 20 minutes.

 

Quotes:  "Aus/Thai DTA does not have an exclusion on Age Pension or Superannuation." and "Age Pension and Superannuation are assessable income if remitted to Thailand and taxable if remitted to Thailand are classed as assessable income."  

 

Are they wrong?  If so, can you point out where in Article 18 and Article 19 of the DTA between Australia and Thailand where they are wrong?  Go on the record. 

Yes IMO they are wrong - and the guy Jeff interviewed is correct.  That company is 'baiters' and they are reaping in lots of business from Expats in Thailand who are scared they will have to pay income taxes. There are a lot of them out there - this guy is just one of many.  I listened to his first vidcast and used to get his emails - IMO a total baiter. 

 

No-one knows for sure because it all depends on 'interpretation'. The tax lawyer interpreted that Clause the same way I did - Aust Govt Pensions are only taxable in Australia. I also got an email from a Tax Lawyer saying the same thing. After being accused of lying by posters like you I posted e redacted picture of the email - they all shut up (and only a couple of them aplogised). Also I went into the local Provincial Office where my Thai wife's family lives and she asked them - they said Pension no tax.  Likewise another poster did the same some months ago - and got the same answer.   Until TRD provides their long promised explanations and detailed advice, no one knows for sure (maybe in Nov?)

 

I have already posted my views and opinions about this issue many times, including in the Aust Forum - I am on the record. Go find it all - I aint wasting time rewriting it all again (or looking for it). 

[KhunHeineken]

3 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Yes IMO they are wrong - and the guy Jeff interviewed is correct. 

Can you clarify who, exactly, you think is right, and who is wrong, and about what?

 

Below is Andrew Rigney's basic CV.  He appears to be well qualified and experienced. 

 

https://www.rbwca.com.au

 

Andrew C Rigney B Com, Dip Law (LPAB) FCA

 

Andrew joined the firm in 1998 while conducting his undergraduate studies at Macquarie University and became a partner in 2008. He is a tax and corporate business advisor across small/medium businesses, international subsidiaries and high net worth family groups. Andrew provides advice in all areas of taxation, structuring, asset protection and succession.

Andrew’s client base covers a wide range of industries including medical, construction, professional services, the legal profession and the not-for-profit sector.

Andrew holds a Bachelor in Commerce (Accounting) from Macquarie University and a Diploma of Law through the Legal Professions Admissions Board (formerly SAB). He was admitted as a Chartered Accountant in 2003 and advanced to fellowship in 2015.

 

Here's Carl Turner.

https://www.expattaxthailand.com

MEET CARL TURNER

 

Carl Turner is the co-founder of Expat Tax Thailand. With his extensive background in international personal finance, Carl is dedicated to offering clear, transparent, and tailored tax guidance. Motivated by a desire to simplify tax matters, Carl leads a team of TFAC-registered qualified accountants and dedicated customer support specialists committed to ensuring our clients receive personalised service that makes navigating Thailand’s tax regulations straightforward and stress-free.

 

Can you post your qualifications and experience so your "opinions" can be assessed for accuracy?  

 

3 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

That company is 'baiters' and they are reaping in lots of business from Expats in Thailand who are scared they will have to pay income taxes.

Could it be because, maybe, just maybe, they will actually have to pay tax in Thailand, thus, now need professional advice? 

 

3 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

The tax lawyer interpreted that Clause the same way I did - Aust Govt Pensions are only taxable in Australia.

I think you should watch it and read it again.  No exemption for aged pensions.  Some government occupational pensions are exempt, but not the aged pension.

 

Remember, Article 18 relies on the provisions of Article 19, and Article 19 sets out government occupational pensions, not the aged pension. 

 

3 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

After being accused of lying by posters like you I posted e redacted picture of the email

I've never accused you of lying, but I didn't see the screenshot.  Can you post it again please? 

 

3 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Also I went into the local Provincial Office where my Thai wife's family lives and she asked them - they said Pension no tax.  Likewise another poster did the same some months ago - and got the same answer.

Sure.  Go back in January 2024 and your answer MAY be different.  "TIT" right? 

 

3 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I have already posted my views and opinions about this issue many times, including in the Aust Forum - I am on the record.

Yes, but they are YOUR "views" and "opinions."  Can you post links, quotes, youtube videos etc from professionals that back up your views and opinions? 

 

Do you think your views and opinions hold as much weight as the many professionals that have been quoted  on the topic by many members of this forum?