ICC Issues Arrest Warrants for Benjamin Netanyahu and Yoav Gallant Over Alleged War Crimes

[MicroB]

26 minutes ago, Evil Penevil said:

 

How and when did Arabs acquire Gaza?

 

 

In much the same way as Americans of European extraction acquired land; a very long time ago, through might, and quasi-legal edicts issued by a judiciary foreign to the original land occupants.

 

How long the "Arabs" have been there is open to conjecture. Palestinian Arab is a British colonial term invented to describe anyone living there irrespective of ethnicity or religion. Palestine was a term invented by the Romans to divide conquered peoples.

 

One version is that the "Arabs" arrived in the 7th Century with the introduction of Islam; the history of the Anglo-Saxon people is dominated by events which are likened to be ethnic cleansing. On one level, to identify as "Anglo-Saxon" is to aknowledge that's one forebears might have been a rapey Viking time sticking heads on sticks. We know it was more complicated than that, nevertheless, the invasions by the Angles and Saxons left their genetic legacy on the population. Its therefore natural to assume that's what happens elsewhere.

 

There is substantial evidence that so-called Arabization likely started to happen about 100 years after the arrival of the Islamic religion in the region. Until about 750-800, most areas retained their own language and customs.  A more organised theocracy imposed Arabic as a language, and Arab officials to run things. There are parallels in the west; Holy Joes/God Botherers had some role in adoption of English throughout the British Isles, through distribution of bibles, and the "Good Word". Ironically, it was Calvinists trying to turn Roman Catholics in Co. Antrim that prevented Gaelic from dying out. But Arabization of the region might be more like Rome. Rome ruled Britain for 500 years, yet there seems to be no appreciable Roman genetic legacy left in the peoples. One version portrays the end of Roman Britain being a Dark Ages version of the fall of Saigon, as the Americans scrambled to get out on the last Huey. Another is there was never that many Roman colonists in Britain. Instead, Britons became Roman, adopting Roman custom (including growing grapes, which became in much demand in Rome), Latin, religion and even Emperors.

 

The "Arabs" have always been in Palestine. To us ignorant Westerners, they all seem the same whether they are in Gaza, Beirut, Dharan, Aden or Manama. To people in the Persian (Arabian) Gulf, they are very different. You know, a lot of Brits can't tell the difference between Americans and Canadians. Americans struggle at times between Cockneys and Aussies. Mexicans can't really understand the Spanish. The Palestinians have been pagan, jewish, Christian, Muslim. They've been Greek, Roman, Arab, Palestinian Arabs, Palestinians. The area has a very complex history, but we should not be making simplistic, and probably irrelevant, conclusions about their past, based on our own historical bias, in assuming a similar history.

[Patong2021]

9 hours ago, placnx said:

The Court took a while to issue the warrants. Around 60 countries are reported to have intervened in the matter. As Israel does not recognize the ICC and is not a party to the Rome Statute, the defendants themselves can challenge the indictment if they are ever sent to the Hague. In the meantime, they will have to be cautious in visiting any of the 124 countries who are parties to the Statute.

 

In the above quote the word "genuinely" is key to understanding why the Court has issued the warrants.

 

I note your reference to the term "genuinely" and draw your attention to past Israeli responses to similar actions. Israel has demonstrated that its judicial system does have a provision for punishing those accused of war crimes and has brought charges against IDF members who have violated the applicable code of conduct and has punished responsible parties. Human Rights  groups have been able to bring cases and to receive due process in the Israeli court system. 

 

The case is very politically tinged and rests on a complaint brought  by South Africa, Bangladesh, Bolivia, Comoros, and Djibouti.

A supplemental complaint was brought this year by Chile and Mexico. The first group is not known for its respect for human rights , let alone due process. The second due, are now lead by leftist political leaders, both of whom subscribe to the 1970's era liberation ideaology.

 

The cornerstone of the charges rests on allegations that the accused have intentionally starved and deprived Gazans. IMO it will be difficult to prove when the number of fatalities has been relatively stagnant for the past year, and when it can be shown that Israel has allowed aid convoys to enter Gaza. If one looks at the videos of people in Gaza as they detail their hardship, no one is emaciated or has the  appearance of being starved. There are lots of claims of "on the brink of starvation", or "Gaza is likely to experience an epidemic", yet no evidence of such a situation.  Yes, the people are experiencing hardship and it is obviously difficult living in Gaza. However, that can all change if the Gazans release the hostages and agree to stop attacking Israel. To be blunt, I would have done a lot worse than Israel if I was in its position.

 

Edited 7 hours ago by Patong2021

[Nick Carter icp]

11 minutes ago, Patong2021 said:

 

The case is very politically tinged and rests on a complaint brought  by South Africa, .

 

 

   There seems to be some evidence that Iran paid South Africa to bring the ICJ Court case to trial 

[pattayasan]

5 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   There seems to be some evidence that Iran paid South Africa to bring the ICJ Court case to trial 

produce it or stop lying.

Edited 6 hours ago by pattayasan

[Nick Carter icp]

5 minutes ago, pattayasan said:

produce it or stop lying.

 

  I'll find it later when I have the time to do a websearch 

[pattayasan]

3 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  I'll find it later when I have the time to do a websearch 

 

sure you will. You know the rules, you are just trolling.

Edited 6 hours ago by pattayasan

[Patong2021]

5 minutes ago, pattayasan said:

produce it or stop lying.

 

It is a claim that  has been made from South Africans. The ANC is accused of having taken a donation from Iran in return for  bringing the charges.

The reason this claim is difficult to conclusively fact-check is because we don’t have access to the ANC’s balance sheets, so there’s no way of categorically refuting the idea that the party has just received a massive donation from Iran.

https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2024-01-25-iran-fund-south-africa-icj-israel-palestine-fact-check/

 

The ANC has been asked to open its books  by journalists and the ANC has refused.

 

Iranian groups (who are opposed to the current religious regime) have also made mention of Iran's complicity.

A group of 160 lawyers, in a letter to the US Secretary of State, the Department of Justice, and the leaders of the US Congress, requested an investigation into the alleged receipt of bribes by South African leaders from the Islamic Republic.

https://iranwire.com/en/news/129348-160-lawyers-write-to-us-leaders-alleging-iran-bribed-south-africa/

 

At the very least the allegation  merits investigation.

 

 

[pattayasan]

21 minutes ago, Patong2021 said:

 

It is a claim that  has been made from South Africans. The ANC is accused of having taken a donation from Iran in return for  bringing the charges.

The reason this claim is difficult to conclusively fact-check is because we don’t have access to the ANC’s balance sheets, so there’s no way of categorically refuting the idea that the party has just received a massive donation from Iran.

https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2024-01-25-iran-fund-south-africa-icj-israel-palestine-fact-check/

 

The ANC has been asked to open its books  by journalists and the ANC has refused.

 

Iranian groups (who are opposed to the current religious regime) have also made mention of Iran's complicity.

A group of 160 lawyers, in a letter to the US Secretary of State, the Department of Justice, and the leaders of the US Congress, requested an investigation into the alleged receipt of bribes by South African leaders from the Islamic Republic.

https://iranwire.com/en/news/129348-160-lawyers-write-to-us-leaders-alleging-iran-bribed-south-africa/

 

At the very least the allegation  merits investigation.

 

 

 

Neither of those even come close to a credible source. Pretty disgusting effort. What;'s wrong with obeying the rules?

 

Do you realize how feeble somebody has to be to swallow this garbage?

 

"so there’s no way of categorically refuting the idea that the party has just received a massive donation from Iran."

 

Iranwire doesn't even rate a wiki entry. It has a partnership with Daily Beast.

 

Edited 6 hours ago by pattayasan

[Nick Carter icp]

1 hour ago, pattayasan said:

 

sure you will. You know the rules, you are just trolling.

 

  Here you go

Care to retract the allegation that I was "just trolling"

 

South Africa’s Gaza genocide case against Israel is funded by Iran – report

 

 

 "Shortly after announcing the case, the ANC faced near bankruptcy but unexpectedly secured funds after a series of meetings between ANC ministers and leaders from Iran, Qatar, and Hamas. These funds reportedly covered the party's nearly $30 million debt."

 

 

https://allisrael.com/south-africas-gaza-genocide-case-against-israel-is-funded-by-iran-report

 

[Nick Carter icp]

1 hour ago, pattayasan said:

produce it or stop lying.

 

   I produced it .

Please retract your allegation that I was lying .

[pattayasan]

3 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  Here you go

Care to retract the allegation that I was "just trolling"

 

South Africa’s Gaza genocide case against Israel is funded by Iran – report

 

 

 "Shortly after announcing the case, the ANC faced near bankruptcy but unexpectedly secured funds after a series of meetings between ANC ministers and leaders from Iran, Qatar, and Hamas. These funds reportedly covered the party's nearly $30 million debt."

 

 

https://allisrael.com/south-africas-gaza-genocide-case-against-israel-is-funded-by-iran-report

 

 

You're joking, surely? You trot out an Israeli newspaper which claims Iran paid South Africa to lodge the complaint and expect that to pass muster?

[pattayasan]

In the process of reading this trash, I discovered this piece:

 

Settler leaders celebrate DM Katz's decision to end administrative detention for violent Jewish settlers

 

https://allisrael.com/dm-israel-katz-announces-end-to-administrative-detention-for-violent-jewish-settlers

[Nick Carter icp]

1 minute ago, pattayasan said:

 

You're joking, surely? You trot out an Israeli newspaper which claims Iran paid South Africa to lodge the complaint and expect that to pass muster?

 

   I backed up my claim of

 

"There seems to be some evidence that Iran paid South Africa to bring the ICJ Court case to trial "

 

   Will you be retracting your claim that I was lying and trolling ?

[pattayasan]

and this little gem

 

According to "The Australian", Shaked was barred entry over concerns she might “incite discord.” The decision to reject her visa was based on a parliamentary act that permits banning individuals from entering the country if they are deemed likely to “vilify a segment of the Australian community, or incite discord in the Australian community or in a segment of that community.” 

Shaked wrote on 𝕏, “The issue here is not that I didn't get a visa. The issue here is that the current Australian government has become anti-Semitic.” 

 

https://allisrael.com/australia-bars-former-justice-minister-ayelet-shaked-over-concerns-of-incitement

[Jeff the Chef]

Great news, about time too.

[Nick Carter icp]

2 minutes ago, pattayasan said:

and this little gem

 

According to "The Australian", Shaked was barred entry over concerns she might “incite discord.” The decision to reject her visa was based on a parliamentary act that permits banning individuals from entering the country if they are deemed likely to “vilify a segment of the Australian community, or incite discord in the Australian community or in a segment of that community.” 

Shaked wrote on 𝕏, “The issue here is not that I didn't get a visa. The issue here is that the current Australian government has become anti-Semitic.” 

 

https://allisrael.com/australia-bars-former-justice-minister-ayelet-shaked-over-concerns-of-incitement

 

   What the hell does that have to do with the thread topic ?

[Nick Carter icp]

Hungary have officially stated that will not abide by this ruling 

 

Viktor Orbán says he will not enforce ICC decision that requires court members to detain Israeli PM if he enters their country

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/nov/22/hungary-invites-netanyahu-to-visit-as-world-leaders-split-over-icc-arrest-warrant

[Homburg]

This move by the ICC is extremely dangerous and divisive. It may serve to further polarise the World. Those states that condemn the ICC's move on one side, and those that support its move on the other. What will be very revealing is those states that do not support the position of the US The US is about to find out who its friends really are, and it looks like the UK is not going to be on that list.  If the US feels isolated then might it decide not to get involved in European conflicts and just leave it to Russia and Western Europe to sort out the Ukraine mess? Could it be that the UK's position on this makes the US's withdrawal from NATO far more likely, and with it the onset of WW3?  Are the battle lines for WW3 about to be revealed?

[Evil Penevil]

13 minutes ago, MicroB said:

The area has a very complex history,

 

Yes, it certainly does.  There had never been an independent kingdom, nation or state called Palestine before the PLO declared the creation of the State of Palestine in 1988.  Arabs living in Mandatory Palestine had been offered a state under the 1947 U.N. partition plan, but the Arab League rejected the plan.

What Israel took over on  May 14, 1948, was the territory allotted to the Jewish state under the United Nation's partition plan for Mandatory Palestine, which at that time was under British control.   Before the U.K. received the Mandate for Palestine from the League of Nations, the Ottoman Empire had ruled the region we today call historical Palestine since 1516 CE.  Prior to the  Turks, the rulers had been the Mamluk Sultanate; Ayyubid Dynasty; European Crusaders; Fatimid Caliphate; Mongol Empire;  Abbasid Caliphate; Umayyad Caliphate;  Rashidun Caliphate; Byzantine Empire; Roman Empire; Seleucid Empire; Ptolemaic Kingdom; Achaemenid (Persian) Empire; Babylonian Empire and Assyrian Empire. You have to go back to Biblical times and the Iron Age to find centuries in which people who were actually born in historical Palestine ruled  the region.  That would be the Kingdoms of  Israel  and Judah.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  .  

"After Roman times the name [Palestine] had no official status until after World War I and the end of rule by the Ottoman Empire, when it was adopted for one of the regions mandated to Great Britain." https://www.britannica.com/place/Palestine

https://x.com/BryanLeibFL/status/1712594390445617178