Just now, stevenl said:

You're posting falsely here.

 

"Amnesty International’s research report is based on interviews with more than 200 people, including Palestinian victims and witnesses, local authorities in Gaza, healthcare workers, extensive fieldwork, analysis of extensive visual and digital evidence, including satellite imagery, and analysis of statements by senior Israeli government and military officials, and official Israeli bodies."

Where are my false claims? Deflection 

Just now, Bkk Brian said:

I know I read it. I agree its total horse manure

Denying facts.

5 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Denying facts.

What facts? Lay them all out with sources. One by one and lets go through them. I've already fact checked a couple of your false claims.

6 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Israel declaring it started that day doesn't mean it started that day.

 

   Yes it does, war starts when one a Country declares a war .

Or are you overruling the Israeli Government and telling them that they were actually at war prior to Oct 7 th ?

   Only the Israeli Government has the authority to declare a war , you cannot overrule the Israeli Government 

7 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

You guys started a war , don't complain because you are losing the war .

No ceasefire until the hostages have been released and until the Hamas war criminals have been brought to justice and conditions have been imposed so that you cannot attack Israel again .

   War isn't nice, so don't start one

 

The idea that Israel's alleged war crimes and genocide are acceptable because Hamas allegedly committed similar atrocities is a logical fallacy.

 

Just because one party has committed wrongdoing does not justify the other party doing the same. This viewpoint also fails to distinguish between the actions of Hamas, a militant group, and the Palestinian people as a whole. The collective punishment of an entire population is a violation of international law and is morally reprehensible. Justifying Israel's actions in this way only serves to perpetuate the cycle of violence and further entrench the animosity between Israelis and Palestinians, making a peaceful resolution to the conflict even more difficult to achieve. Israel could have used force in a way that was proportional to the threat posed by Hamas, targeting only those directly involved in the attack and taking all feasible precautions to minimize harm to civilians.

 

Ultimately the long history of violence and mistrust between Israel and Hamas may have contributed to a mindset in which each side feels justified in using excessive force against the other.

17 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Read the report.

Eh? His claims were not from the report. You're not getting very far here are you. Again

23 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Denying it doesn't make it not true. 

That is all the IDF have.

1 minute ago, Hamus Yaigh said:

 

The idea that Israel's alleged war crimes and genocide are acceptable because Hamas allegedly committed similar atrocities is a logical fallacy.

 

Just because one party has committed wrongdoing does not justify the other party doing the same. This viewpoint also fails to distinguish between the actions of Hamas, a militant group, and the Palestinian people as a whole. The collective punishment of an entire population is a violation of international law and is morally reprehensible. Justifying Israel's actions in this way only serves to perpetuate the cycle of violence and further entrench the animosity between Israelis and Palestinians, making a peaceful resolution to the conflict even more difficult to achieve. Israel could have used force in a way that was proportional to the threat posed by Hamas, targeting only those directly involved in the attack and taking all feasible precautions to minimize harm to civilians.

 

Ultimately the long history of violence and mistrust between Israel and Hamas may have contributed to a mindset in which each side feels justified in using excessive force against the other.

The idea that Israel's alleged war crimes and alleged genocide are similar to the atrocities Hamas committed and continue to commit is a logical fallacy, as it assumes facts not in evidence. 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Hamus Yaigh said:

 

The idea that Israel's alleged war crimes and genocide are acceptable because Hamas allegedly committed similar atrocities is a logical fallacy.

 

 

   Hamas did commit war crimes, there is nothing allegedly about it .

Hamas commits a war crime every day  , nothing alleged about it .

   Hamas attempted a genocide in the way of removing all Israelis from their land .

  Hamas attempted a genocide and Hamas commit war crimes on a daily basis .

   

29 minutes ago, MalcolmB said:

If they keep murdering innocent women and children they should go to hell.

Not even worth the time answering 

27 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Hamas did commit war crimes, there is nothing allegedly about it .

Hamas commits a war crime every day  , nothing alleged about it .

   Hamas attempted a genocide in the way of removing all Israelis from their land .

  Hamas attempted a genocide and Hamas commit war crimes on a daily basis .

   

No excuse for Israel committing war crimes and genocide per the source of the thread. 

2 minutes ago, stevenl said:

No excuse for Israel committing ear crimes and genocide per the source of the thread. 

The source provides no evidence and has in fact made up a new interpretation of what Genocide is. More facts for you in your alternative reality.

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

The source provides no evidence and has in fact made up a new interpretation of what Genocide is. More facts for you in your alternative reality.

It's a genocide, yet there are more Palestinians today than there was a year ago. 

1 hour ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

    This current war started on Oct 7 th , that is the day that war was declared  . 

   There have been previous wars and hostilities in the region , but this current war was officially  declared on Oct 7 th .

   You can not try to pretend that the Hamas terror attack , war crimes and attempted genocide  by Hamas on Israel, wasn't the reason why this war is currently  happening 

Were there any events prior that might have led to this war?

5 minutes ago, mokwit said:

Were there any events prior that might have led to this war?

You could always go to the topic for that rather than deflect the fact less Amnesty report here.

 

Why Did Hamas Attack Israel on Oct 7th 2023 a Historical Perspective

https://aseannow.com/topic/1324728-why-did-hamas-attack-israel-on-oct-7th-2023-a-historical-perspective/

It is genocide. It's as if a government decided to raze an entire city to the ground trying to root out a terrorist or guerrilla insurgency with no regard for civilian casualties. It's shocking that anyone who speaks out against these clear war crimes is labeled anti-Semitic. 

4 minutes ago, Gecko123 said:

It is genocide. It's as if a government decided to raze an entire city to the ground trying to root out a terrorist or guerrilla insurgency with no regard for civilian casualties. It's shocking that anyone who speaks out against these clear war crimes is labeled anti-Semitic. 

I'm not labeling you anti semitic so your wrong straight away.  But you have no facts to those claims and leave out who were the people who deliberately used civilians for sacrifice.

8 minutes ago, Gecko123 said:

It is genocide. It's as if a government decided to raze an entire city to the ground trying to root out a terrorist or guerrilla insurgency with no regard for civilian casualties. It's shocking that anyone who speaks out against these clear war crimes is labeled anti-Semitic. 

Were that true, it would be a genocide, but it's not true. 

7 minutes ago, Gecko123 said:

It is genocide. It's as if a government decided to raze an entire city to the ground trying to root out a terrorist or guerrilla insurgency with no regard for civilian casualties. It's shocking that anyone who speaks out against these clear war crimes is labeled anti-Semitic. 

 

   Its not a war crime though  , There has been an investigation by the I.C.J and they didn't find that Israel had committed war crimes .

   Israel did actually repeatedly tell civilians to move away from the combat area , they were given safe passages to move to safe areas .

   Civilians were informed when buildings would be bombed 

7 minutes ago, Gecko123 said:

It is genocide. It's as if a government decided to raze an entire city to the ground trying to root out a terrorist or guerrilla insurgency with no regard for civilian casualties. It's shocking that anyone who speaks out against these clear war crimes is labeled anti-Semitic. 

A guerrilla insurgency! That's a joke. Hamas won a majority of seats in the 2006 elections in Gaza. I think the people elected them.

1 hour ago, stevenl said:

Denying it doesn't make it not true. The facts are there for those willing to see.

The fact you would side with a known jew hating troll says everything about you and the left in general. Thank god you guys lost

1 hour ago, stevenl said:

This is not Palestinians claiming, this is amnesty international claiming, based on extensive research and sources.

 

Personally I do not view the Israeli killings in Gaza as genocide, but IMO totally beyond reason.  Current estimated death count in Gaza is nearly 45,000. At the beginning of this conflict Israelis estimated Hamas fighters at somewhere between 15k - 30k. Right now daily deaths from Israel bombing is approx 50 deaths a day (the rubble bounces), plus nearly all hospitals in Gaza can no longer function. The civilians will not be able to bring about the release of hostages. Media suggests Netanyahu is wating for trump to come to power before a cessation of bombing, in other words continuing killing for political reasons. Extremely cynical and cruel, one hopes a better people than PLA and  Netanyahu will come to power in the not too distant future to configure a political solution to the endless killing

2 minutes ago, simple1 said:

 

Personally I do not view the Israeli killings in Gaza as genocide, but IMO totally beyond reason.  Current estimated death count in Gaza is nearly 45,000. At the beginning of this conflict Israelis estimated Hamas fighters at somewhere between 15k - 30k. Right now daily deaths from Israel bombing is approx 50 deaths a day (the rubble bounces), plus nearly all hospitals in Gaza can no longer function. The civilians will not be able to bring about the release of hostages. Media suggests Netanyahu is wating for trump to come to power before a cessation of bombing, in other words continuing killing for political reasons. Extremely cynical and cruel, one hopes a better people than PLA and  Netanyahu will come to power in the not too distant future to configure a political solution to the endless killing

What is the civilian to combatant kill ratio, and how does it compare to other examples of urban warfare? I understand it is very good. 

42 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Israel winning the Eurovision  song contest in 2018 did cause lots of animosity from Palestinian entry as they thought that their song was better 

Other members can judge this answer for themselves.

16 minutes ago, mdr224 said:

The fact you would side with a known jew hating troll says everything about you and the left in general. Thank god you guys lost

Amnesty international is a jew hating troll?

6 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Amnesty international is a jew hating troll?

No malcolmB

“To accuse Israel of ‘genocide’ in Gaza is a gross and egregious subversion and weaponization of the very term itself, made even more unconscionable given the Oct. 7 attacks were the largest mass slaughter of Jews since the Holocaust,” the organization said in a statement provided to JNS.

Anne Herzberg, legal advisor at NGO Monitor, said that “Amnesty’s immoral attack targeting Israel is blatant genocide inversion that seeks to turn necessary defense against terror atrocities into a heinous international crime. The NGO twists and invents legal standards, erases the monstrous Hamas war crimes of Oct. 7 and turns unverifiable accusations into ‘evidence.'”

https://www.jns.org/amnesty-international-to-release-report-accusing-israel-of-genocide/

6 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

What is the civilian to combatant kill ratio, and how does it compare to other examples of urban warfare? I understand it is very good. 

 

   The U.N itself stated that the average civilian casualties in war is about 90 % , in the Gaza war the civilian casualty rate is about 50 % .

   Israel are doing extremely well to keep the civilian casualty rate so low , considering that Hamas are hiding among the civilians 

 

Ninety Per Cent of War-Time Casualties Are Civilians, Speakers Stress

25 May 2022

 

https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm

 

A post with double quotes from 2 different posters has been removed @stevenl

 

7. Do not quote more than three multiple nested quotes. Only quote the person you are replying to, and only quote the relevant section that you are discussing.

The common definition  as per Article II of the  Genocide Convention defines genocide as a crime that can take place both in time of war as well as in time of peace. It describes genocide as a crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part.

 

Israel can demonstrate that its targets were bonafide military related. The casualty count of 44,000 presented by Gaza does not differentiate between military & support personnel and  the general population. The Geneva Conventions allows for collateral damage including civilians if they are located in proximity to  legitimate military targets.

 

The Amnesty report refers to the death of children and creates the impression that they have been specifically  targeted. A person carrying a weapon and shooting at the IDF  becomes a legitimate target. Hamas and its allies used the children as human shields and often located their command and control headquarters in residential areas. They also intentionally kept their families in proximity so that they could be martyrs to their cause. Many children died when Hamas rockets and missiles either misfired or when the munitions the children were moving detonated. And yes, Hamas uses young boys to move its munitions. The rule of thumb is that once they can grow pubic hair, they are old enough to carry a weapon. Until then they can be used as supply mules and as messengers. This is the reality of the Hamas, Hezbollah  and ISIL military.

 

Israel has provided corridors of safe passage and has allowed food, fuel and medical aid to enter Gaza. It has also allowed medical evacuations. This can all be proven.  The claims of mass starvation are unsubstantiated. There is indeed  diversion and theft of food and medicine but that is due to the corruption that was endemic in Gaza and is not because of Israel. 

 

Despite some Israeli political factions asking for parts of Gaza to be made into DMZ buffer zones, Israel has neither annexed nor  taken possession of any of the Gaza land. 

 

Yes they are  unfortunate casualties, and yes, many people have died. This is the outcome of a  breach of a truce and  mass murder, followed by the taking of hundreds of  hostages who have been  tortured and brutalized. The Israelis have demonstrated far greater restraint than  Assad in Syria, the Houthis in Yemen and the muslim militias in Darfur. Yet, only Israel is accused of a genocide.