Upgrade Main breaker box

[bearded_bluto]

On my list of things to do in the future has arrived. Been dealing with termites. Currently ripping off drywall and studs, in the spot where the underground power cable comes into the house. I currently have just a square D box, nothing fancy like earth fault detection (rccb?).

I have single phase 30A meter connection. I would like to change the breakers to rccb type (30ma) a whole house surge protection, ayne 2 transfer switches or one 3 way (one for solar and one for diesel genset andthen the mains) and perhaps a main cutoff switch. 

 

Is this overkill? If its not broke leave it alone is on my mind. Is the surge protection worth it? My cheapest route would just be to change the breakers to rccb type and forget the rest. There is so much lighting during the rainy season and I feel like I am way overdue for induction or a powerline strike nearby.

[Crossy]

Good call on using RCBOs.

 

As a minimum I would install a separate 2-pole isolator on the incoming supply, before it goes to your box. This will allow you to completely isolate from the grid and work on your kit with no chance of live wires.

 

Definitely decent surge protection (60kA or more).

 

Ensure you have a proper ground and MEN connection.

 

You might want to get an over-size DIN rail box so you can add transfer switches etc. as and when required. Dependent upon exactly how you install your solar you may not actually need one.

 

This PEA document is worth a peruse Groundwire Mk2 book-Manual.pdf

 

The relevant diagram with my translations.

 

[OneMoreFarang]

Make sure you understand the difference between RCCB and RCBO.

 

And, IMHO, use a BIG box to put all those RCCBs, RCBOs, MCBs inside. Many small breaker boxes are so overfilled with cables that it is difficult to see what is happening and even worse to actually work on those things.

[bearded_bluto]

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll update in a couple weeks with what I did.

[bearded_bluto]

On 12/17/2024 at 6:18 AM, Crossy said:

Good call on using RCBOs.

 

As a minimum I would install a separate 2-pole isolator on the incoming supply, before it goes to your box. This will allow you to completely isolate from the grid and work on your kit with no chance of live wires.

 

Definitely decent surge protection (60kA or more).

 

Ensure you have a proper ground and MEN connection.

 

You might want to get an over-size DIN rail box so you can add transfer switches etc. as and when required. Dependent upon exactly how you install your solar you may not actually need one.

 

This PEA document is worth a peruse Groundwire Mk2 book-Manual.pdf

 

The relevant diagram with my translations.

 

What happens if there is a fault with the incoming neutral, the ground at some pole outside?, I feel like in that situation your ground  in your home becomes the new village ground/neutral. I'm certainly no expert but that is my first impression. Seems complicated to me. PEA reversed my neutral and Live at the meter a few years back, by accident I suppose, but that would really complicate the above diagram i think.

[GammaGlobulin]

On 12/15/2024 at 1:24 AM, bearded_bluto said:

Currently ripping off drywall and studs

 

Sorry.

I thought you said....

Ripping off studs.

 

Anyway, I, too, must replace my breaker box.

I will chose one of the highest quality.

 

One from America.

 

Square D.

 

Schneider...all the way!

 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

6 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

Anyway, I, too, must replace my breaker box.

I will chose one of the highest quality.

 

One from America.

 

Square D.

 

Schneider...all the way!

Those statements are mutually incompatible. 
Schneider Is a French origin company and uses DIN rail

Square D is a USA company that mostly uses their own non DIN rail components 

A box from the USA is not automatically one of the highest quality.

 

Also using a single box may not be the best choice depending on the number of circuits you have.

[GammaGlobulin]

4 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Those statements are mutually incompatible. 
Schneider Is a French origin company and uses DIN rail

Square D is a USA company that mostly uses their own non DIN rail components 

A box from the USA is not automatically one of the highest quality.

 

Also using a single box may not be the best choice depending on the number of circuits you have.

 

Last time I purchased a product with a Square D  symbol on it, Square D was a USA company.

In 1991, Square D became French.

In future, I will not use Square D.

Thank you.

 

Also, I will stop using APC back-up.

APC is owned by that French company.

No more APC for me.

Thank you, once again.

 

APC is French?

 

 

 

 

[Crossy]

13 hours ago, bearded_bluto said:

What happens if there is a fault with the incoming neutral, the ground at some pole outside?, I feel like in that situation your ground  in your home becomes the new village ground/neutral. I'm certainly no expert but that is my first impression. Seems complicated to me. PEA reversed my neutral and Live at the meter a few years back, by accident I suppose, but that would really complicate the above diagram i think.

 

Have a read of this page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_system 

 

Thailand is TNC-S with MEN (Multiple Earthed Neutral) which is essentially the same as Aus who have one of the safest systems in the known universe, the UK isn't far behind (many Brits would argue here!) although the UK version of MEN is called PME (Protective Multiple Earthing).

 

Both MEN and PME are part of the mitigation of an open neutral, also the neutral is the top wire on the poles so it's likely to be the last wire to be damaged.

 

Reversed L&N at the meter does happen, we had one member who noticed his kitchen floor was getting warm where the earth rod was located. Turned out to be a swapped L&N. 

 

Thailand has no regulation that would preclude you using TT (but it wouldn't pass a PEA or MEA inspection for a permanent supply), so if you don't like the look of the N-E link you can eliminate it at the cost of reduced overall safety. Going TT would make RCD/RCBO mandatory for protection from shock in the event of a L to appliance metalwork fault.

[GammaGlobulin]

11 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Those statements are mutually incompatible. 
Schneider Is a French origin company and uses DIN rail

Square D is a USA company that mostly uses their own non DIN rail components 

A box from the USA is not automatically one of the highest quality.

 

Also using a single box may not be the best choice depending on the number of circuits you have.

 

Maybe still USA?

 

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, GammaGlobulin said:

 

Maybe still USA?

 

They maybe a USA product, that however doesn’t answer the question of the fittings not being DIN rail components. Also what is so good about being made in the USA? that of course doesn’t address the point that the products are probably made in China, Vietnam, Thailand etc anyway. Being a USA product is no guarantee of quality.

[bearded_bluto]

8 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

They maybe a USA product, that however doesn’t answer the question of the fittings not being DIN rail components. Also what is so good about being made in the USA? that of course doesn’t address the point that the products are probably made in China, Vietnam, Thailand etc anyway. Being a USA product is no guarantee of quality.

Any recommendations for a brand? I bought some safe-T-cut switch/breakers a few years back, I think its made in Thailand and they have some consumer box/panels in the stores around me. So if I understand if its din then I can buy whatever and throw it in whatever box as long as its a din box/rail and din breaker etc.? I liked the look of the square D/Schneider with each breaker having their own rccb with fixed 30 or 10ma for choice. I would go with 30ma. The ones I looked at in the stores seem to use just the main breaker, so if that trips your house is dark I guess.

[Crossy]

Individual RCBOs are available here for both DIN and plug-in (Schneider/Square-D, BTIcino) consumer units. 

 

DIN have the advantage of being pretty universal "do what you like" boxes, plug-in is quick and easy but restricts your configuration choices.

 

All the major brands are here, ABB, etc. etc.

 

If you can find a specialist outlet rather than the big DIY stores they will have (or be able to order) the rarer gear.

 

If you must import kit, get it from the UK, Europe, Aus/NZ. The US electrical system is sufficiently different that US components may not operate correctly or even be destroyed!

[bearded_bluto]

9 hours ago, Crossy said:

Individual RCBOs are available here for both DIN and plug-in (Schneider/Square-D, BTIcino) consumer units. 

 

DIN have the advantage of being pretty universal "do what you like" boxes, plug-in is quick and easy but restricts your configuration choices.

 

All the major brands are here, ABB, etc. etc.

 

If you can find a specialist outlet rather than the big DIY stores they will have (or be able to order) the rarer gear.

 

If you must import kit, get it from the UK, Europe, Aus/NZ. The US electrical system is sufficiently different that US components may not operate correctly or even be destroyed!

So with a din type there must be I am guessing 3 bus bars for single phase? And the plug in type, which is what I have now (square D) has the bar for clipping the breaker in and 2 bus bars (earth and neutral)? I noticed I have a couple breakers way oversized for the 2.5mm cable. I am amazed at how cheap and available everything is. For the isolation switch I was looking at "ABB Switch-Isolator WSD Series switch" on shopee, 63A. According to the stories I hear around me the PEA people want to wiring, I may just order the stuff and let them install it, What I am thinking --> Isolation switch box --> transfer switch unit (future proofing) --> consumer unit.  Then inside the din type consumer unit >> surge protection (2 slots), under over voltage (2 slots), main breaker (2 slots) without earth leakage detection, then the individual breakers with earth leakage (30mA). If I didn't mention it this is single phase. Would all that put me over the target in your opinion?

[sometimewoodworker]

16 hours ago, bearded_bluto said:

So with a din type there must be I am guessing 3 bus bars for single phase?

No, the usual is 2, one for the protective earth and one for neutral. 

 

you can, most will, add bus bars to groups of units as above.

just a FWIW
AFIR the 4 circuits on the left are lighting and are unprotected by the under over voltage protection unit on the left.
The 3 on the right are for power machinery that may be damaged if the power is too low/high and the power goes through the contactor in the centre but is controlled by the second from the left unit

 

also of course there is the DIN rail that is isolated from everything 

 

Because DIN rail is so popular there are hundreds of different modules available from thousands of suppliers so usually DIN rail units are less expensive than plug in units 

 

These are 

at the top, the incomer box with lighting protection and the isolators for the workshop and house

the next 2 are for the workshop, (I have too many power circuits in the workshop for a single box to be logical) 

the bottom one is for the garden 

 

 

the house has its own boxes.

 

All of this is far more than is strictly necessary but units are cheap and when building it’s simple to add circuits for versatility, I can easily have too many high power consumption tools to overload a single, or 2 or 3, circuits 
 

 

[bearded_bluto]

On 12/20/2024 at 8:43 PM, sometimewoodworker said:

No, the usual is 2, one for the protective earth and one for neutral. 

 

 

I see something called a floating bus bar when using google, If not that then how does the Live from the main breaker get distributed to the individual breakers? I am picturing 10 wires jammed into a a terminal. lol If it is indeed a "floating bus bar", then I would think it would be included with the consumer unit for the number of slots?

[sometimewoodworker]

9 hours ago, bearded_bluto said:

I see something called a floating bus bar

If you reread my post you will see 

 

On 12/21/2024 at 8:43 AM, sometimewoodworker said:

you can, most will, add bus bars to groups of units as above.

The 2 bus bars have a plastic sleeves on them they are in the first picture feeding the groups of MCB’s

 

9 hours ago, bearded_bluto said:

floating bus bar", then I would think it would be included with the consumer unit for the number of slots?

It is! 
 

 

9 hours ago, bearded_bluto said:

I am picturing 10 wires jammed into a a terminal. lol

That is the builders way, 😉 an electriction will know that you can loop the connections  

 

a bus bar is nothing more than a conveniently shaped wire, faster and safer to install than wire.

[bearded_bluto]

I ordered my stuff yesterday. One slot on a din rail is 18mm if anybody is trying to calculate space needed for larger modules. I think the din itself is 35mm also called eu din.

[bearded_bluto]

Got some of the stuff today. The blanks that cover the unused slots I guess can be in halfs. Also in the picture is the floating bus bar, looks like you just cut it to the size you want. Last 4.2 is what I am hoping the freelance PEA tech uses on my install. KISS (keep it simple stupid). Waiting for 2 more items.

[bluejets]

On 12/22/2024 at 2:00 PM, bearded_bluto said:

I see something called a floating bus bar when using google, If not that then how does the Live from the main breaker get distributed to the individual breakers? I am picturing 10 wires jammed into a a terminal. lol If it is indeed a "floating bus bar", then I would think it would be included with the consumer unit for the number of slots?

Appears to be confusion as to "busbar" being the connection to the breakers which is correct, and neutral and earth links being the top connection brass bars shown in the load centres above.

[herfiehandbag]

Red to red, and black to black, switch it on and stand well back...

 

Works for my 12 volt DC model railway! 🚂 😀

[bearded_bluto]

Well I am just tinkering with this today, looking at the components. I have two questions if anybody here knows the answer,

 

1) The Main Breaker type BTicino (40A) is not marked IN or OUT, I assume I go what ever way I want then?, which if true is good since I prefer the L&N IN to be the bottom just for that main breaker. (Two components left and right of it have IN on the top)

 

2) Can I stack the floating bus bar? I also seen this on shopee which I guess is also stacking, but thought I should ask here. (since shopee wants everyone to log in before showing the item just google----> บัสบาร์ ตู้ คอนซูเมอร์ กันดูด (M-04)

Well here is another one google--> "Hugepeaktion 1/2P ประเภทพินบัสบาร ์ ทองแดงเทอร ์ มินัลบล ็ อกสําหรับ MCB DZ47 Air Switch Connector 63A Circuit Breaker Connector Nice"

So Ill just say its most likely fine since this looks legit and tidy too me.

[bearded_bluto]

Looking again I see that some of the din type stuff is not really all on the same specifications.

 

-So first off the "floating bus var" does not line up with all the terminals on the modules, lesson? Probably stay with the same brand to avoid that issue.

-Second issue I see is the modules are not even for the front panel to fit over. I did manage to get the cover on but there should be a code or something so all manufactures keep their stuff in sync with the rest.

-The transfer switch while its a din rail type is way to big for this box, guess its my fault, it must be for some other standard.

 

I included a couple pictures including a breaker upside down, just to show everyone.

 

I guess if your off to the races, maybe stick with one brand?

[sometimewoodworker]

On 1/9/2025 at 4:11 PM, bearded_bluto said:

1) The Main Breaker type BTicino (40A) is not marked IN or OUT, I assume I go what ever way I want then?, which if true is good since I prefer the L&N IN to be the bottom just for that main breaker. (Two components left and right of it have IN on the top)

Some components are required to be wired with correct in/out orientation, other components are ambivalent so can go either way. So you need to know which type you have to answer your question.

On 1/9/2025 at 4:11 PM, bearded_bluto said:

Can I stack the floating bus bar?

If you mean “put 2 floating bus bar legs into the same terminal, the answer is you probably can but should not do it because if you do one set of breakers will be stressed as the bus bar will be in the wrong orientation. The only way that would work is if you have a kinked bus bar.

On 1/11/2025 at 8:40 AM, bearded_bluto said:

So first off the "floating bus var" does not line up with all the terminals

Your abbreviations are obtuse. Please explain.

On 1/11/2025 at 8:40 AM, bearded_bluto said:

Second issue I see is the modules are not even for the front panel to fit over. I did manage to get the cover on but there should be a code or something so all manufactures keep their stuff in sync with the rest.

The are roughly, but you can just enlarge the opening with a file if you want.