Today's experience trying to obtain my tax refund

[TigerandDog]

First of all the information in this post is ONLY relevant to Australian expats who are Thai tax residents and impacted by the Thai- Australia Tax Treaty.

 

This afternoon, after compiling the total amount of my aged pension payments remitted to me in Thailand during the 2024 calendar year, I proceeded to visit my bank to obtain a letter detailing the interest I had earned and the tax that had been deducted.  No issues encountered at the bank.

 

I then proceeded to my District Revenue Office to lodge my tax return. The first question I asked was whether under the Thai-Australia DTA my pension was assessable for tax in Thailand. The Revenue Officer who was attending to me was unaware of the DTA and could not answer the question. The Revenue Office Manager was called over and she advised, but was not 100% certain, that as the aged pension was a payment made by the Australian Government, and therefore deemed by the Thai Revenue Dept to be a social security payment, in her opinion it was not assessable. She, for the sake of clarity, telephoned the Provincial Revenue Office and their response was that it was not assessable and therefore there was NO requirement for me to include any portion of it in my tax return.

 

The end result being that my tax return comprised of only the interest earned and the tax deducted, thus meaning I will receive a 100% tax refund.

 

So hopefully this helps other aussie expats who are concerned about whether or not their aged pension is going to be taxed here in Thailand.

[bkk6060]

Hopefully  you got the names, addresses, and phone numbers of the people involved.   Maybe a video or sound recording would have been good also.

[scubascuba3]

You'd kinda hope they had a specialist team somewhere rather than the usual guessing which may or may not be right.

 

Hopefully you got something in writing

[FritsSikkink]

26 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

Hopefully  you got the names, addresses, and phone numbers of the people involved.   Maybe a video or sound recording would have been good also.

You can't do videos at the revenue department, and you are not allowed to record government officials without consent.

[digger70]

13 hours ago, TigerandDog said:

First of all the information in this post is ONLY relevant to Australian expats who are Thai tax residents and impacted by the Thai- Australia Tax Treaty.

 

This afternoon, after compiling the total amount of my aged pension payments remitted to me in Thailand during the 2024 calendar year, I proceeded to visit my bank to obtain a letter detailing the interest I had earned and the tax that had been deducted.  No issues encountered at the bank.

 

I then proceeded to my District Revenue Office to lodge my tax return. The first question I asked was whether under the Thai-Australia DTA my pension was assessable for tax in Thailand. The Revenue Officer who was attending to me was unaware of the DTA and could not answer the question. The Revenue Office Manager was called over and she advised, but was not 100% certain, that as the aged pension was a payment made by the Australian Government, and therefore deemed by the Thai Revenue Dept to be a social security payment, in her opinion it was not assessable. She, for the sake of clarity, telephoned the Provincial Revenue Office and their response was that it was not assessable and therefore there was NO requirement for me to include any portion of it in my tax return.

 

The end result being that my tax return comprised of only the interest earned and the tax deducted, thus meaning I will receive a 100% tax refund.

 

So hopefully this helps other aussie expats who are concerned about whether or not their aged pension is going to be taxed here in Thailand.

Your Lucky,

Our Aus Age pension is  Not Taxed in Aus Because it's Too Low to be Taxed ,I would say in Thailand it is classed as an Income from Abroad and is Taxable under Thai Tax Law.

[Presnock]

53 minutes ago, digger70 said:

Your Lucky,

Our Aus Age pension is  Not Taxed in Aus Because it's Too Low to be Taxed ,I would say in Thailand it is classed as an Income from Abroad and is Taxable under Thai Tax Law.

sounds like he is guessing just like the TRD folks are guessing!  That is the biggest problem here, no actual individuals including those of the TRD don't get any info either...have to wait until the politicians finish their search for money.

[soalbundy]

That's a good start, the tax office doesn't even know what a DTA is. I don't know what value these DTA's have anyway, there seems to be confusion everywhere. My letter of pension confirmation from the German consulate contained a clause that due to a DTA with Germany my pension wasn't to be taxed by Thailand, I don't pay tax on my pension in Germany. My German tax office said I'm not taxed in Germany as they assume I am paying tax in Thailand.

[Jingthing]

8 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

That's a good start, the tax office doesn't even know what a DTA is. I don't know what value these DTA's have anyway, there seems to be confusion everywhere. My letter of pension confirmation from the German consulate contained a clause that due to a DTA with Germany my pension wasn't to be taxed by Thailand, I don't pay tax on my pension in Germany. My German tax office said I'm not taxed in Germany as they assume I am paying tax in Thailand.

I don't see the problem then.

If that's your only income remitted to Thailand, simply don't get a TIN and don't file taxes here.

Thai Revenue is not interested in hearing about your not accessable remitted income.

[soalbundy]

4 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I don't see the problem then.

If that's your only income remitted to Thailand, simply don't get a TIN and don't file taxes here.

Thai Revenue is not interested in hearing about your not accessable remitted income.

Because the statement from the German tax office appears to give permission to Thailand to tax me.

[Puccini]

1 hour ago, digger70 said:

Your Lucky,

Our Aus Age pension is  Not Taxed in Aus Because it's Too Low to be Taxed ,I would say in Thailand it is classed as an Income from Abroad and is Taxable under Thai Tax Law.

 

What does Thailand's DTA with Australia say about it?

[The Cyclist]

13 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Thai Revenue is not interested in hearing about your not accessable remitted income.

 

And therein lies the problem that I have been trying to highlight on the other thread

 

25 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I don't pay tax on my pension in Germany. My German tax office said I'm not taxed in Germany as they assume I am paying tax in Thailand.

 

Not the posters fault, but a case of tax evasion / avoidance 

 

[Puccini]

11 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Because the statement from the German tax office appears to give permission to Thailand to tax me.

What does the German tax office have to do do with the taxation of Australian pension payments in Thailand?

[soalbundy]

Just now, Puccini said:

What does the German tax office have to do do with the taxation of Australian pension payments in Thailand?

Nothing, but it has to do with the general confusion about DTA's....burn me,

[tandor]

9 minutes ago, Puccini said:

 

What does Thailand's DTA with Australia say about it?

Australian Aged Pension is under the Tax Threshhold; however in the eyes of the TRD it is Foreign Sourced Income with no Tax having been paid in the Contracting State, therefore assessable in Thailand. Regarding Superannuation if you worked for the Government (Federal/State/Local Government instrumentality) then that Pension is Non-assessable. That is my take. (Have a look at AseansNow member MikeLister's thread on this).

[TigerandDog]

2 hours ago, digger70 said:

Your Lucky,

Our Aus Age pension is  Not Taxed in Aus Because it's Too Low to be Taxed ,I would say in Thailand it is classed as an Income from Abroad and is Taxable under Thai Tax Law.

As stated in my post, the Oz Age Pension IS a Govt pension, which means it is a social security payment, and it was stated by the Provincial Revenue Office that it is NOT assessable under Thail tax law. Also under the Oz/Thai DTA Govt pensions/social security are ONLY subject to home country tax rules, therefore NOT tax assessable in Thailand, AND Govt pensions/social security payments are NOT listed under the definitions of income in the Thai tax legislation.

Private pensions, e.g. superannuation etc, ARE assessable & subject to taxation in Thailand if remitted into Thailand for Thai tax residents, and then tax offsets are done against Oz tax paid as per the Oz/Thai DTA. 

[TigerandDog]

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

That's a good start, the tax office doesn't even know what a DTA is. I don't know what value these DTA's have anyway, there seems to be confusion everywhere. My letter of pension confirmation from the German consulate contained a clause that due to a DTA with Germany my pension wasn't to be taxed by Thailand, I don't pay tax on my pension in Germany. My German tax office said I'm not taxed in Germany as they assume I am paying tax in Thailand.

Your initial comment re the tax office not knowing what a DTA is is INCORRECT. It was an individual that didn't know, the manager was aware of the DTA and ascertained from the Provincial Revenue Office whether her interpretation of the DTA was correct.

Apart from that I'm not really sure why you posted a comment about your German situation. This information was ONLY relevant to Australians. Other nationalities will need to do their own investigating relevant to their specific DTA's if they have one.

[TigerandDog]

1 hour ago, tandor said:

Australian Aged Pension is under the Tax Threshhold; however in the eyes of the TRD it is Foreign Sourced Income with no Tax having been paid in the Contracting State, therefore assessable in Thailand. Regarding Superannuation if you worked for the Government (Federal/State/Local Government instrumentality) then that Pension is Non-assessable. That is my take. (Have a look at AseansNow member MikeLister's thread on this).

To the best of my knowledge Mike Lister has only ever posted re US & UK. I've never seen him make any reference to the Oz DTA.

 

The TRD dopes NOT, based on my experience yesterday, consider the Australian Aged pension, when remitted into Thailand, as assessable as THEY deem it to be a social security payment, which under Thai tax law is not taxable.

[expat_4_life]

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

Nothing, but it has to do with the general confusion about DTA's....burn me

 

As requested ...
 

[CharlesHolzhauer]

1 hour ago, Puccini said:

What does Thailand's DTA with Australia say about it?

ARTICLE 18
PENSIONS AND ANNUITIES
1. Subject to the provisions of Article 19, pensions and annuities paid to a resident of one of the Contracting States shall be taxable only in that State.
2. The term "annuity" means a stated sum payable periodically at stated times during life or during a
specified or ascertainable period of time under an obligation to make the payments in return for adequate
and full consideration in money or money's worth.

ARTICLE 19
GOVERNMENT SERVICE
1. Remuneration (other than a pension) paid by one of the Contracting States or a political subdivision of that State or a local authority of that State to any individual in respect of services rendered in the discharge of governmental functions shall be taxable only in that State. However, such remuneration shall be taxable only in the other Contracting State if the services are rendered in that other State and the recipient is a resident of that other State who:
(a) is a citizen or national of that other State; or
(b) did not become a resident of that other State solely for the purpose of performing the services.
2. Any pension paid to an individual in respect of services rendered in the discharge of governmental
functions to one of the Contracting States or a political subdivision of that State or a local authority of that State shall be taxable only in that State. Such pension shall, however, be taxable only in the other
Contracting State if the recipient is a resident of, and a citizen or national of, that other State.
3. The provisions of paragraphs 1 and 2 shall not apply to remuneration or a pension in respect of
services rendered in connection with any trade or business carried on by one of the Contracting States or a
political subdivision of one of the States or a local authority of one of the States. In such a case, the
provisions of Article 15, 16 or 18 as the case may be shall apply.

ARTICLE 15
DEPENDENT PERSONAL SERVICES
1. Subject to the provisions of Article 16, 18, 19 and 20, salaries, wages and other similar remuneration derived by an individual who is a resident of one of the Contracting State in respect of an employment shall be taxable only in that State unless the employment is exercised in the other Contracting State. If the employment is so exercised, such remuneration as is derived from that exercise may be taxed in that other State.
2. Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 1, remuneration derives by an individual who is a
resident of the Contracting State in respect of an employment exercised in the other Contracting State
shall be taxable only in the first-mentioned State if :
(a) the recipient is present in that other State for a period or periods not exceeding in the aggregate 183 days in the tax year or year of income, as the case
may be, of that other State;
(b) the remuneration is paid by, or on behalf of, an employer who is not a resident of that other State; and
(c) the remuneration is not deductible in determining taxable profits of a permanent establishment or a fixed base which the employer has in that other State.
3. Notwithstanding the preceding provisions of this Article, remuneration in respect of an employment exercised aboard a ship or aircraft operated in international traffic by a resident of one of the
Contracting States may be taxed in that Contracting State.

ARTICLE 16
DIRECTORS' FEES
Directors' fees and similar payments derived by a resident of one of the Contracting States in the
the capacity of the resident as a member of the board of directors of a company which is a resident of the
other Contracting State may be taxed in that other State.

ARTICLE 20
PROFESSORS AND TEACHERS
1. A professor or teacher who is a resident of one of the Contracting States and who visits the other
Contracting State, at the invitation of any university, college, school or other similar educational institution situated in the other Contracting State and which is recognized by the competent authority of that other State, for a period not exceeding two years solely for the purpose of teaching or research or both at such educational institution shall be taxable only in the first mentioned state on any remuneration for such teaching or research.
2. This Article shall not apply to remuneration which a professor or teacher receives for conducting research if the research is undertaken primarily for the private benefit of a specific person or persons.

[barryw52]

16 hours ago, TigerandDog said:

First of all the information in this post is ONLY relevant to Australian expats who are Thai tax residents and impacted by the Thai- Australia Tax Treaty.

 

This afternoon, after compiling the total amount of my aged pension payments remitted to me in Thailand during the 2024 calendar year, I proceeded to visit my bank to obtain a letter detailing the interest I had earned and the tax that had been deducted.  No issues encountered at the bank.

 

I then proceeded to my District Revenue Office to lodge my tax return. The first question I asked was whether under the Thai-Australia DTA my pension was assessable for tax in Thailand. The Revenue Officer who was attending to me was unaware of the DTA and could not answer the question. The Revenue Office Manager was called over and she advised, but was not 100% certain, that as the aged pension was a payment made by the Australian Government, and therefore deemed by the Thai Revenue Dept to be a social security payment, in her opinion it was not assessable. She, for the sake of clarity, telephoned the Provincial Revenue Office and their response was that it was not assessable and therefore there was NO requirement for me to include any portion of it in my tax return.

 

The end result being that my tax return comprised of only the interest earned and the tax deducted, thus meaning I will receive a 100% tax refund.

 

So hopefully this helps other aussie expats who are concerned about whether or not their aged pension is going to be taxed here in Thailand.

Thank you for your post as this what I thought would be the answer but have had other answer from frang tax accounts who read the Australian DTA as ex Government enployees and ex Australian Military Pensions only. 

[jesimps]

I think anyone who parts with his hard-earned brass before he needs to, has more money than sense. There still appears to be utter confusion over the whole business. Being a UK ex government worker, I don't believe that I have to file for tax, but until I find clear and concise instructions from the local tax authority, like any ex government worker worth his salt, I'm going to sit on the fence. 

One important question I haven't seen answered is, do I just ignore the whole thing because I'm covered by the DTA between here and the UK, or try and wring a TIN out of Jomtien Tax Office, pay local tax and claim it back later. From where?

The whole thing is surreal. 

[mfd101]

I was forced by my Australian bank (NAB) to take out a TIN even though, under the DTA, my entire income in Thailand comes from Australian Federal Government superannuation and is unassessable/untaxable in Thailand.

 

So I have a TIN and what am I going to do with it? At this stage, nothing at all. Wait and see.

 

If the TRD approaches me or summons me for a little get-together, I figure I have nothing to fear and can show the details of both my income & the DTA. I don't think they're going to punish me for not lodging a tax return by the end of March.

[Guderian]

People rushing to the Thai tax office to file a return and offer to pay tax remind me of the famous Gary Larson far Side cartoon... lol

 

[CharlesHolzhauer]

2 hours ago, mfd101 said:

I was forced by my Australian bank (NAB) to take out a TIN even though, under the DTA, my entire income in Thailand comes from Australian Federal Government superannuation and is unassessable/untaxable in Thailand.

I have been a non-resident of Australia for tax purposes since 2010 and am currently a resident of Thailand for Thai tax purposes. I have promptly notified the Australian financial institutions I deal with of my overseas address and contact details.

These financial institutions frequently sent requests for a "Tax Status Declaration Form," which includes the following statement:

"A TIN is the number assigned by each country for the purposes of administering tax laws. This is the equivalent of a Tax File Number (TFN) in Australia. If a TIN is not provided, please specify one of the three reasons listed (A, B, or C) for not providing a TIN."

The reasons listed on the form are:

Reason A - The country of tax residency does not issue TINs to tax residents (Only valid for Bahrain, The Bahamas, Bermuda, British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Monaco, Montserrat, Turks and Caicos Islands, United Arab Emirates).
Reason B - The individual has not been issued with a TIN.
Reason C - The country of tax residency does not require the TIN to be disclosed (Only valid for Japan).

The first "Tax Status Declaration Form (for Individuals)" I received was from Macquarie Bank in March 2018, which I duly completed, signed, and returned as requested. Since then, I received this form every six months and consistently selected "Reason B: The individual has not been issued with a TIN."

Later, I received identical requests from NAB and Computershare Limited. In every instance, "Reason B" was accepted without any issues.

However, after obtaining a TIN last year, I informed my banks accordingly. Since then, these requests have ceased.

I suspect that some employees at these financial institutions are either not fully informed or unaware of the purpose of the "Tax Status Declaration Form." I find it perplexing that banks would threaten to close accounts when the form clearly provides acceptable options (A, B, and C). It's important to note that banks act merely as agents reporting to the Financial Services Council (FSC). Of course, it would be a completely different matter if someone were to ignore the requirement to complete the form altogether or trying to outsmart the relevant authorities.

[tandor]

5 hours ago, TigerandDog said:

To the best of my knowledge Mike Lister has only ever posted re US & UK. I've never seen him make any reference to the Oz DTA.

 

The TRD dopes NOT, based on my experience yesterday, consider the Australian Aged pension, when remitted into Thailand, as assessable as THEY deem it to be a social security payment, which under Thai tax law is not taxable.

..whatever, but Posters in his Topic have discussed it, probably off Topic.

As you are aware you can download all the Dual Taxation Agreements in PDF to make your own determinations.

I contacted the ATO a few months ago for clarification, all they could advise is follow what it says and do not avoid/evade paying taxation..(wow that was a revelation).

Today i went to my local TRD and on presenting my filled in Form 91 was asked, 'is this for Thai Immigration'...hmm!, 'no' i replied.  The Clerk proceeded to open TRD online and entered all my information. She clarified that seeing as was a former State Government employee and therefore a Contributor to a compulsory Superannuation scheme, i did not have those monies assessed by the TRD. (I asked about the Aged Pension, but was told it was Assessable..

She then deleted all the entries she had made and signed out, telling me there was no need for me to lodge a Tax Return in Thailand as no tax was payable in my situation having limited Income and Deductions. She handed me the Attachment below and wished me a Happy New Year. FYI

 

[jojothai]

8 hours ago, TigerandDog said:

AND Govt pensions/social security payments are NOT listed under the definitions of income in the Thai tax legislation.

? Please clarify where this is stated

 

In thailand pension is classed as income.

Its something that i see on the tax, legal advice and investment sites , and they all seem to state the same.

[Jingthing]

24 minutes ago, jojothai said:

? Please clarify where this is stated

 

In thailand pension is classed as income.

Its something that i see on the tax, legal advice and investment sites , and they all seem to state the same.

Pensions clearly pay out income.

It may not be income currently earned, but it is still income.

Thailand differentiates between ACCESSABLE pension income and EXCLUDED pension income (if remitted).

U.S. social security is EXCLUDED. 

That said, my current understanding is that Thailand classifies U.S. retirement account withdrawals (IRAs, 401ks) as accessable pension income when in no way does the U.S. consider them as pensions (but withdrawals can be taxable income (Roth vs. Traditional IRAs). 

A classic pension has defined payments.

A person could have an IRA and take out zero one year, 100K another year, at their choosing. How is that a pension?

[digger70]

10 hours ago, Puccini said:

 

What does Thailand's DTA with Australia say about it?

As far as I understand what they have said is that ones pension from Aus if that isn't Taxed in Aus than it will be Taxed as an Income when one brings it intoThailand.