Nightmare at the Prachuap tax office

[anchadian]

25 minutes ago, Digitalbanana said:

What new laws are you referring to? Do you have a link?

There is no new law, it's a RD Tweak

[OneManShow]

On 2/11/2025 at 12:46 PM, thesetat said:

I showed them online that SSI from the US to Thailand is not paid as per the DTA. They would not accept this.

You need to go to different office. Tax offices have different idea about tax. Some very nice and helpful even though they have not much information regarding farang tax and some just don't care. 
In my case, I was told that I'm not required to pay tax for US SS. And the extra that I transferred to Thailand was less than 120,000. 

[OneManShow]

On 2/11/2025 at 1:10 PM, thesetat said:

Even if you know your income is less than a certain amount.

https://itap1.for.irs.gov/owda/0/investigate/WhoMustFile_ITA/en-US/ScreenOrder~Main~qs%247a03ad32-ff39-4de9-98b9-5ab40555cd12%24global%24global
 

if you answer all questions you can easily find it if you are not required to file a tax return. (IRS website)

move been doing this for 10 years.

[zyphodb]

On 2/11/2025 at 2:00 PM, Sheryl said:

They all are. Countless reports from all over the country  and advice given differs greatly office by office but all that I have seen have been incorrect in one way or another. 

 

DTAs aside, remember that RDs only deal with assessable income.  Normally a person with no assessable income would never go there and, if RD  comprehend your income is non-assessable they are not going to understand what you want/why you came in. 

 

Also remember that no need to file in person at RD. Online fillng is actively encouraged. 

 

Excuse me Sheryl, have you a link to the online filing site?

[Mutt Daeng]

7 hours ago, mudcat said:

Asked and already answered (as I found when reviewed my packet for TRD)

 

Thai language for Thai-U.S. tax convention:

https://rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/america_t.pdf

 

English language for Thai-U.S. tax convention:

https://rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/america_e.pdf

Thanks @mudcat for this very useful post. It has helped me locate the Thai - UK DTA in Thai language, which may come in handy at some stage.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

5 hours ago, Arkie said:

I stopped by the office in Hua Hin, took no information, no passport.   I gave her income figures from 2024 with 50%  being from Social Security.  She informed me it made no difference where the income came from it would be taxed.  She would not listen to my rebuttal

 

 

Crazy... insane on the TRD staff's part there.

 

[Sheryl]

1 hour ago, zyphodb said:

 

Excuse me Sheryl, have you a link to the online filing site?

https://efiling.rd.go.th/rd-cms/

 

It is in Thai so open in Chrome

 

You may also find the attached useful, they are English translations of form P90 and its instructions . Not current year but  I doubt much if any change

 

P90 is what is used unless income is solely from employment in which case P91 used.

 

 

[GroveHillWanderer]

26 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

https://efiling.rd.go.th/rd-cms/

 

It is in Thai so open in Chrome

 

You may also find the attached useful, they are English translations of form P90 and its instructions . Not current year but  I doubt much if any change

 

P90 is what is used unless income is solely from employment in which case P91 used.

 

I'm trying to do the online filing but after clicking on the button for P90/91, I get a page where I have to specify what kind of income I'm entering. None of the categories I can choose, seem applicable for entering pension income remitted from abroad.

 

There is one category that looks like it might be the one to use (Assessable income ...) but it has no option to click on, like the others do. 

 

Any advice on how to proceed? 

 

[Sheryl]

15 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

 

I'm trying to do the online filing but after clicking on the button for P90/91, I get a page where I have to specify what kind of income I'm entering. None of the categories I can choose, seem applicable for entering pension income remitted from abroad.

 

There is one category that looks like it might be the one to use (Assessable income ...) but it has no option to click on, like the others do. 

 

Any advice on how to proceed? 

 

Assuming your remitted pension income is assessable (which depends on the terms of the relevant DTA), then remitted foreign pension income and pension received in Thailand are treated the same, and both come under Section 40 (1) of the tax code, which is also where employment income is:

 

"Section 40 Assessable income is income of the following categories including any amount of tax paid by the payer of income or by any other person on behalf of a taxpayer.

• (1) Income derived from employment, whether in the form of salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, house rent allowance, monetary value of rent-free residence provided by an employer, payment of debt liability of an employee made by an employer, or any money, property or benefit derived from employment. "

https://www.thailandlawonline.com/revenue-code/income-tax-law-in-the-revenue-code#ii

 

Was there an initial choice for employment income? If so I assume that is what you would select, as it is going to go onto Line 1 of Section A . Which is  titled "Salaries, wages, pensions etc".

 

If your pension is not assessable, you should  not include it in your filing (and not file if no other assessable income)

[GroveHillWanderer]

38 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Assuming your remitted pension income is assessable (which depends on the terms of the relevant DTA), then remitted foreign pension income and pension received in Thailand are treated the same, and both come under Section 40 (1) of the tax code, which is also where employment income is:

 

"Section 40 Assessable income is income of the following categories including any amount of tax paid by the payer of income or by any other person on behalf of a taxpayer.

• (1) Income derived from employment, whether in the form of salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, house rent allowance, monetary value of rent-free residence provided by an employer, payment of debt liability of an employee made by an employer, or any money, property or benefit derived from employment. "

https://www.thailandlawonline.com/revenue-code/income-tax-law-in-the-revenue-code#ii

 

Was there an initial choice for employment income? If so I assume that is what you would select, as it is going to go onto Line 1 of Section A . Which is  titled "Salaries, wages, pensions etc".

 

If your pension is not assessable, you should  not include it in your filing (and not file if no other assessable income)

Yes, the initial choice is for employment income. It hadn't occurred to me that it would include pension income. 

 

However my UK pension is less than the full amount due to lack of NI contributions when I was first living abroad and was still young and foolish (I moved overseas aged 18). I didn't realise I could make voluntary contributions until I was older so with the allowable deductions, including being over 65 I don't have any assessable income, by my calculations.

 

So I guess no need to file?

[khunPer]

To OP @thesetat: Always ask for "talk to someone important", a big boss that can speak English.

There is another AN-thread here about one, who did that (opening post)...

 

[it is what it is]

On 2/11/2025 at 5:56 AM, thesetat said:

I have been here for 13 years. My wife runs one of the Government ministry offices locally so i try my best to keep legal in all aspects. Since my income is solely from social security then it is not taxable in Thailand so I did not see a problem filing to keep legal problems from arising that may include my wife. 

But this office has no clue. 

 

My wife runs one of the Government ministry offices locally so i try my best to keep legal in all aspects

 

don't understand the logic, how would not declaring something you don;t have to declare be illegal?

 

couldn't your wife have given you better advice?

[Straight8]

On 2/11/2025 at 1:26 PM, thesetat said:

Probably the best advice yet. 

However if anyone in Hua hin can tell me. Is the tax office there any smarter and english speaking? 

Maybe too late, you could already be flagged.

[Phil1964]

So my slightly separate but related question to all this taxable imported foreign income that farangs now need to declare to the Thai authorities is;

 

To avoid filing tax returns, risk getting screwed by the Thai tax authorities demanding tax payments on income bought into Thailand for living expenses, (despite having already been taxed at source in the UK etc), the safest way to avoid any of this hassle and risk is, (barring not going to Thailand), to simply only spend 180 days in any 365 days in the country between 1st Jan and 31st Dec each year? 

Or after 3 years will the authorities be looking at your arrival/departure records and going, "Hey this fella is as good a resident let's tax him, (and others who may be doing so)?

 

(NB: I still live in UK but am nearing / loosely thinking and planning my retirement for within next 3 - 5 years).

 

Finally, since my last visit in August 2023 with my now ex-psycho Thai b****, what is the cost of living like there 2 years on? Turned for the worse and as bad as here in "rip off Britain"?

 

Thanks in advance and enjoy the sunshine, it's a miserable February here in 2025, just the one day of sunshine in nearly 2 weeks! Grrrr!

 

 

[OJAS]

2 hours ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

Yes, the initial choice is for employment income. It hadn't occurred to me that it would include pension income. 

 

However my UK pension is less than the full amount due to lack of NI contributions when I was first living abroad and was still young and foolish (I moved overseas aged 18). I didn't realise I could make voluntary contributions until I was older so with the allowable deductions, including being over 65 I don't have any assessable income, by my calculations.

 

So I guess no need to file?

 

Assuming that you are not married and that the UK State Pension is your sole source of assessable income, you may need to file a tax return if your SP payments exceed the equivalent of 20,000 THB per annum (around £475 on the basis of current exchange rates).

[OJAS]

49 minutes ago, OJAS said:

 

Assuming that you are not married and that the UK State Pension is your sole source of assessable income, you may need to file a tax return if your SP payments exceed the equivalent of 20,000 THB per annum (around £475 on the basis of current exchange rates).

 @GroveHillWanderer - correction with apologies: the actual amount above which a tax return might be required in your case is, in fact, 120,000 THB (which currently converts to around £2,850). See page 23 of 122 in the following link:

 

https://www.pwc.com/th/en/tax/assets/thai-tax/thai-tax-booklet-2023-24.pdf

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

28 minutes ago, OJAS said:

 @GroveHillWanderer - correction with apologies: the actual amount above which a tax return might be required in your case is, in fact, 120,000 THB (which currently converts to around £2,850). See page 23 of 122 in the following link:

 

https://www.pwc.com/th/en/tax/assets/thai-tax/thai-tax-booklet-2023-24.pdf

 

 

That PWC booklet said its 2023/24 info was based on Thai tax rules/laws as of July 2023, although it includes some reference to the first TRD change dated Sept. 2023.

 

However in quickly perusing the front section on personal income tax:

 

--It doesn't seem to say much if anything about the impact of double taxation treaties that may exist between Thailand and various expats' home countries -- which can serve to limit or exclude Thai taxation in various categories, and

 

--It doesn't seem to make any mention at all of the subsequent clarification by the TRD (P162) that said all foreign income earned pre-2024 would be considered SAVINGS and thus not subject to Thai taxation, even if remitted into Thailand in later years.

 

There seems clear agreement that the pre-2024 savings exception does cover any funds held in bank accounts as cash at the end of 2023. There's some disagreement, though, about whether the same tax exception also does or does not cover cash and stock holdings held in brokerage accounts up thru that time.

 

[Sheryl]

4 hours ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

Yes, the initial choice is for employment income. It hadn't occurred to me that it would include pension income. 

 

However my UK pension is less than the full amount due to lack of NI contributions when I was first living abroad and was still young and foolish (I moved overseas aged 18). I didn't realise I could make voluntary contributions until I was older so with the allowable deductions, including being over 65 I don't have any assessable income, by my calculations.

 

So I guess no need to file?

You don't owe tax. You do have assesssble income. Different situation. 

 

Anyone with assedsable invome of 60k or more (prior to any deductions, exemptions or alliwances) is required to file. 

 

However since no tax being avoided, the most you risk is a 2000 baht fine (which is seldom enforced). 

 

Personally in your shoes  I would go ahead and file. Costs nothing,  abides by the letter of the law, qnd you have a clear record to show if ever asked. But up to you. 

[oldcpu]

15 hours ago, mudcat said:

Asked and already answered (as I found when reviewed my packet for TRD)

 

Thai language for Thai-U.S. tax convention:

https://rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/america_t.pdf

 

English language for Thai-U.S. tax convention:

https://rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/america_e.pdf

 

Thanks.  Using that link and a bit of guessing, for those looking for Thai language versions of the Thai-German, and Thai-Canada DTAs:

 

Canada-Thai DTA in Thai language
https://rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/canada_t.pdf

 

German-Thai DTA in Thai language
https://rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/germany_t.pdf

 

This may come in handy if needing to point out some DTA aspects to a local RD taxation office (in Thai language).  Hopefully it never comes to that need.

[jesimps]

On 2/11/2025 at 12:46 PM, thesetat said:

I just returned from the Prachuap Khiri Khan tax office at the Prachuap provincial office. (Not Hua Hin) I had my total amount that was transferred to fill in their forms. As well as proof the the monies were from Social Security office. 

While speaking to the personnel. They asked my wife where did my money come from. My wife showed them my form 1099 that showed how much was paid to me from the SSI. They then told her that all of that income on that piece of paper would be taxed and i would need to pay thousands on it to their office. I tried to explain to them (with wife's help in Thai) that the DTA for SSi to Thailand is not taxable. The tax office asked my wife why i got this money for mean she told them i was disabled. They asked me to show them proof of my disability. The office knew nothing about this and said I would need to pay on that amount and then clarified that disabled in Thailand are given proof of their disability and are only allotted an income of about 100,000 before they paid tax.. To make matters worse, the amount sent to Thailand was more than what i got from my SSDI. Because my children in Thailand also get SSDI and that is sent to my US account and then transferred to Thailand. They said only my income mattered that showed on my 1099 form. They did not care what was sent from the US to Thailand out of my pension. I then began thinking this tax office clearly has no idea about taxation laws and the DTA that applies to SSI pensions. 

I showed them online that SSI from the US to Thailand is not paid as per the DTA. They would not accept this.

( The US-Thailand Tax Agreement:
Under this agreement, US social security income is exempt from Thai taxation. This means if your primary source of income is US social security, you are not required to pay Thai taxes on this income, regardless of how and when it's transferred to your Thai bank account }

Again they wanted me to show proof that I was disabled as well. America does not issue proof for this as far as I know. WE do not carry a card around saying I get SSDI because I am disabled. Only when you require special services are you then given some document that grants permission for those services. (IE disabled parking, ramps, and other things that police will perhaps hassle you over. But not income from direct deposits coming from the SSI office. 

So here I am. Telling you the tax office here in Mueang Prachuap Khiri Khan. Has no clue about how to manage my taxes and are determined to make me pay thousands on my SSI. 

 

Does anyone know if another office (perhaps Hua Hin) is more knowledgeable in this and has an English speaker working there to assist us? 

 

I know if I file through this office, they will do it wrong and make me pay alot for no reason. 

I think the time is right for the embassies to start getting involved in this. The DTAs are treaties and are supposed to be binding. Otherwise they aren't worth the paper that they're written on. The Thai government should be put in the picture and proper procedures sent out to tax offices countrywide. As a UK ex government worker, I will abide by the UK/Thailand DTA by NOT filing.

[jesimps]

On 2/11/2025 at 12:57 PM, thesetat said:

You are required to declare and file tax return on all monies transferred into Thailand even if no tax is owed

Only if assessable. You should not file if exempt under a DTA, otherwise you encounter the same problems as the OP. What's the point of a DTA if you're required to file for tax?

[oldcpu]

19 minutes ago, jesimps said:

 

Quote

You are required to declare and file tax return on all monies transferred into Thailand even if no tax is owed

 

Only if assessable. You should not file if exempt under a DTA, otherwise you encounter the same problems as the OP. What's the point of a DTA if you're required to file for tax?

 

I agree only if assessable income AND if above the Thai tax filing assessble income threshold for filing a Thai tax return.

 

As to the point of there being DTAs?   ...  it is to avoid double taxation.  Not to avoid tax completely.

 

The DTA is to help  determine cases where one county may have exclusive taxation rights (and the other country no taxation rights) and to help in the situation where both countries can tax an income (to avoid double tax). 

 

There can be cases where legally due to DTAs and Royal Decrees on taxation and due to the source of one's income that:

(1) a person pays taxes in both countries (but not above the maximum that they would pay if only one country involved), or

(2) a person ONLY pays tax in one country on their income, and not in the other country, or

(3) a person pays tax in neither country on their income, or

(4) a combination of the above for different income sources.

 

It all depends on how the tax law is implemented, together with Royal Decrees on taxation (such as Royal Decree-18 and DTA contents), Royal Decree 743 (LTR visa) and Ministerial instructions por.161/162.

 

If remitted income to Thailand is exempt in the tax calculation, then it is not to be included in the assessment as to the threshold for submitting a Thai tax return, nor (if threshold reached to file a return due to other income) is the DTA tax exempt income to be included in a Thai tax return.

 

I am not a tax expert - but sadly, seeing some of the mistakes in some of the youtube blogger purported tax advisors, it appears at present, neither are they experts, as perhaps some time is needed to see how this all plays out.

[Luuk Chaai]

On 2/11/2025 at 12:46 PM, thesetat said:

I just returned from the Prachuap Khiri Khan tax office at the Prachuap provincial office. (Not Hua Hin) I had my total amount that was transferred to fill in their forms. As well as proof the the monies were from Social Security office. 

While speaking to the personnel. They asked my wife where did my money come from. My wife showed them my form 1099 that showed how much was paid to me from the SSI. They then told her that all of that income on that piece of paper would be taxed and i would need to pay thousands on it to their office. I tried to explain to them (with wife's help in Thai) that the DTA for SSi to Thailand is not taxable. The tax office asked my wife why i got this money for mean she told them i was disabled. They asked me to show them proof of my disability. The office knew nothing about this and said I would need to pay on that amount and then clarified that disabled in Thailand are given proof of their disability and are only allotted an income of about 100,000 before they paid tax.. To make matters worse, the amount sent to Thailand was more than what i got from my SSDI. Because my children in Thailand also get SSDI and that is sent to my US account and then transferred to Thailand. They said only my income mattered that showed on my 1099 form. They did not care what was sent from the US to Thailand out of my pension. I then began thinking this tax office clearly has no idea about taxation laws and the DTA that applies to SSI pensions. 

I showed them online that SSI from the US to Thailand is not paid as per the DTA. They would not accept this.

( The US-Thailand Tax Agreement:
Under this agreement, US social security income is exempt from Thai taxation. This means if your primary source of income is US social security, you are not required to pay Thai taxes on this income, regardless of how and when it's transferred to your Thai bank account }

Again they wanted me to show proof that I was disabled as well. America does not issue proof for this as far as I know. WE do not carry a card around saying I get SSDI because I am disabled. Only when you require special services are you then given some document that grants permission for those services. (IE disabled parking, ramps, and other things that police will perhaps hassle you over. But not income from direct deposits coming from the SSI office. 

So here I am. Telling you the tax office here in Mueang Prachuap Khiri Khan. Has no clue about how to manage my taxes and are determined to make me pay thousands on my SSI. 

 

Does anyone know if another office (perhaps Hua Hin) is more knowledgeable in this and has an English speaker working there to assist us? 

 

I know if I file through this office, they will do it wrong and make me pay alot for no reason. 

same story in Pranburi ..    the officer was nice enough to tell me he could help me and get me all the discounts to save money ...

 of course I smiled and  left ....

[black tabby12345]

On 2/11/2025 at 12:52 PM, KhunLA said:

Thank you very much, as I was thinking about popping into that office myself this week.

 

I won't be doing that 

 

His post demonstrated the stupidity  of Thai bureaucrats at its worst.

I felt he was just like talking to the Bunch of Total Idiot; not knowing what they are doing.

Only thinking about grabbing as much as money possible by chance, well exercising bandits' mentality.

[jojothai]

On 2/11/2025 at 1:15 PM, Briggsy said:

In the UK, absolutely not. The UK does not want unnecessary tax returns taking up government time and money. When you complete a tax return and it is not necessary, the tax authority deregister you for the following year.

Although this does not directly relate to the situation of the initial post and is off topic, I will add some comment.
Yes, True in the UK, it is not necessary to submit a tax return if your income is below the threshold and no tax is due.
On the UK website there is a calculator to check if you need to submit a tax return. I have used it ok and kept screenshots. 
When you complete a UK tax return and it is not necessary to pay tax, Briggsy is right in that they do not expect you to submit a return the next year (and will not request it). However for clarification, the need to submit or not depends whether your circumstances have changed or not and tax may be due. If they do not send a tax return, the onus is on the individual to declare if their circumstances change and tax is due.
I presume that all other countries will be thee same.
There are reasons why that could happen. Best to be aware that if you have any increased income in the UK, it is your responsibility to calculate and submit the tax return if tax does become due. Penalties can multiply the longer any delay, if not submitted and inland revenue find that you should have submitted.

[Briggsy]

On 2/13/2025 at 4:36 PM, GroveHillWanderer said:

Yes, the initial choice is for employment income. It hadn't occurred to me that it would include pension income. 

 

However my UK pension is less than the full amount due to lack of NI contributions when I was first living abroad and was still young and foolish (I moved overseas aged 18). I didn't realise I could make voluntary contributions until I was older so with the allowable deductions, including being over 65 I don't have any assessable income, by my calculations.

 

So I guess no need to file?

You are clearly talking about a UK State Pension.

 

My view is that is exempted as it is a "Social Security payment" which are non-taxable in the Thai tax code.

 

If this is your only income that is remitted to Thailand, then you have no assessable income (unless you have Thai income such as bank interest). So you have no need to file.

 

In that situation, my plan would be to keep accurate records and not file a tax return. I would also for each year of records, have a summary at the bottom, e.g. 2024. "Assessable income under the the 60,000 Baht threshold. No requirement to file a 2024 tax return." So your decision-making and the reasoning is very clear.

 

My personal view is that I would not expect the Thai Revenue Department to ever require these records. But just in case.

 

 

[jojothai]

2 hours ago, Briggsy said:

You are clearly talking about a UK State Pension.

 

My view is that is exempted as it is a "Social Security payment" which are non-taxable in the Thai tax code.

??

FYI. Unless the pension is for government service, state pension is taxable in Thailand if remitted.
It is very clear that state pension is not covered by the UK DTA, unless it is specifically for government service article 19.
There have been many posts confirming this.
There is no need to ask for any references except the UK DTA. Unlike many other DTA's there is no article for "Pensions".
The UK clearly did not care about pensioners who decide to live in Thailand.  Just as they still do not with no consideration of annual inflation increases to pensions, as is allowed in many other countries. 
Social security payments are also not covered by the UK DTA. There is no mention of it.

[topt]

3 hours ago, jojothai said:

??

FYI. Unless the pension is for government service, state pension is taxable in Thailand if remitted.
It is very clear that state pension is not covered by the UK DTA, unless it is specifically for government service article 19.
There have been many posts confirming this.
There is no need to ask for any references except the UK DTA. Unlike many other DTA's there is no article for "Pensions".
The UK clearly did not care about pensioners who decide to live in Thailand.  Just as they still do not with no consideration of annual inflation increases to pensions, as is allowed in many other countries. 
Social security payments are also not covered by the UK DTA. There is no mention of it.

This appears basically to only be that posters view based on 

6 hours ago, Briggsy said:

My view is that is exempted as it is a "Social Security payment" which are non-taxable in the Thai tax code.

However as challenged before that may only be applicable to Thai based SS payment. Certainly all the tax advisory services seem to think the UK state pension is taxable but that doesn't necessarily mean they are right.....

[Sheryl]

3 minutes ago, topt said:

This appears basically to only be that posters view based on 

However as challenged before that may only be applicable to Thai based SS payment. Certainly all the tax advisory services seem to think the UK state pension is taxable but that doesn't necessarily mean they are right.....

Definitely the exemption for SS income in the Thai tax code refers to Thai SS payments.

 

Further, by no definition is the UK OAP "Social Security".

 

The Thai tax code states pensions are assessable income. Some types of pensions from some countries are, however, non-assessable in Thailand under the terms of some DTAs.  The UK OAP is not one of them, but UK government pensions (for retired military, civil servants etc) are.

 

Note that assessable for tax purposes does nto mean tax will be owed. Unless there is significant other remitted income, no one is going to have to pay tax on the UK OAP. It is assessable, and filing is required, but once all the exemptions, deductions and allowances (TEDA) are taken no tax will be owed.

 

A pensioner  would have to have more than 500,000 baht in assessable remittances (more if married or with dependents) to owe tax here once all the TEDA is taken into account.

[GroveHillWanderer]

I'm looking at Section 42 (27) of the code, which states as follows:

 

"Section 42 - The assessable income of the following categories shall be exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation:

[...]

(27) Income derived from maintenance and support or gifts from ascendants, descendants or spouse, but only for the portion not exceeding twenty million Baht throughout the tax year."

 

Does this really mean that if my wife gifts me an amount of money that doesn't exceed 20 million Baht, it's exempt from tax, as far as my tax return is concerned?

 

That seems like an incredibly generous exemption, considering the other amounts involved, such as anything over 120,000 being assessable.