Ukraine must cede territory in peace talks, says US

[James105]

4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I think not caving to Putin and providing Ukraine with the military and financial assistance they need, rather than withdrawing that assistance, is a good start.

 

 

How many more do you want to die to prevent the inevitable redrawing of lines on a map which was always going to be the result of a bigger country invading a smaller country that is not a part of NATO?  Another 100? 1000?  A million?   I presume that so long as its not yourself or close family members doing the dying then an unlimited number of deaths is okay with you?  

[transam]

Just now, James105 said:

 

How many more do you want to die to prevent the inevitable redrawing of lines on a map which was always going to be the result of a bigger country invading a smaller country that is not a part of NATO?  Another 100? 1000?  A million?   I presume that so long as its not yourself or close family members doing the dying then an unlimited number of deaths is okay with you?  

Where are you from........?    🤭

[dinsdale]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I think not caving to Putin and providing Ukraine with the military and financial assistance they need, rather than withdrawing that assistance, is a good start.

 

The military assistance needed is boots on ground. Ain't going to happen. The war is unwinnable from Ukraine's point of view and sooner or later the Russians will stop their push east claiming all territory gained and setting the new, albeit internationally unrecognized, border as the new border. This has nothing to do with acquiescing to Putin. It's about stopping the bleeding of US tax payer's money into an unwinnable  war and forcing Zelenskyy to accept the rare minerals deal and move to ceasefire negotiations.

[frank83628]

18 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

Have you asked the people whose land are occupied by Russia if they want to be part of Russia. I mean a real referendum and not the fake one that Russia hastily arranged in Crimea and Donbas. 

Mostly are ethnic Russians.

Would you accept the referendum results if Putin won?

[Yagoda]

19 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Counterfactual garbage.

There is a debate open, try over there where you imaginary country guys are losing

[Eric Loh]

14 minutes ago, frank83628 said:

Mostly are ethnic Russians.

Would you accept the referendum results if Putin won?

All were Ukrainians. Would Putin dare to hold another referendum under Ukraine constitution, referendum recognised by fundamental principles of internally accepted electoral laws and hold the referendum when the country is pacified and not in front of guns and tanks of the Russian army. 

[impulse]

43 minutes ago, puck2 said:

 

My experience:

if people don't like or don't want to understand a comment, than they refer to "speeling and gramar" -

 2 "speeling" mistakes in your short sentence . What a joke!

 

You missed irony classes back in school, eh? 

 

There were a few other deliberate errors in my reply that you missed.

 

[dinsdale]

42 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

Have you asked the people whose land are occupied by Russia if they want to be part of Russia. I mean a real referendum and not the fake one that Russia hastily arranged in Crimea and Donbas. 

You make an interesting point without knowing it. Regions taken are somewhat ethnically Russian and controlling these areas will be easier to do as opposed to all of Ukraine. This is why Putin doesn't want all of Ukraine.

[impulse]

6 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

All were Ukrainians. Would Putin dare to hold another referendum under Ukraine constitution, referendum recognised by fundamental principles of internally accepted electoral laws and hold the referendum when the country is pacified and not in front of guns and tanks of the Russian army. 

 

As I recall, the voting in Crimea preceded the guns and tanks.  Massively leaning toward being in Russia.

 

[dinsdale]

7 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

All were Ukrainians. Would Putin dare to hold another referendum under Ukraine constitution, referendum recognised by fundamental principles of internally accepted electoral laws and hold the referendum when the country is pacified and not in front of guns and tanks of the Russian army. 

Only being that the regions they live/lived in were within Ukraine. Being ethnic Russian has a specific meaning. 

[gargamon]

Just now, impulse said:

 

As I recall, the voting in Crimea preceded the guns and tanks.  Massively leaning toward being in Russia.

 

You recall incorrectly. You don't recall the “little green men“, actually Russian military, that were calling the shots?

[NoDisplayName]

3 hours ago, impulse said:

 

Had Obama and Biden not been so feckless and weak, Putin may not have even taken Crimea. 

 

How much did he take under Trump's watch?

 

 

Who was president in 2014 and orchestrated the regime change?

 

Absent that weak fecklessness, Crimea would still be part of Ukraine, and the Russians would still be paying the annual lease on Sevastopol.

[impulse]

10 minutes ago, gargamon said:

You recall incorrectly. You don't recall the “little green men“, actually Russian military, that were calling the shots?

That's going to be debated ad nauseum for decades.  But it's beside the point. 

 

Ukraine is in an unwinnable situation, throwing lives away like they're meaningless.  No amount of money is going to change that, only foreign boots on the ground.  Which means WW3 and the risk of Armageddon.  It's time to stop the killing, and start the rebuilding.  The lines haven't moved meaningfully in over 2 years (key word being "meaningfully").  More dead kids isn't going to change that, and it's time to pull US funding to force negotiation.

 

[Eric Loh]

11 minutes ago, dinsdale said:

Only being that the regions they live/lived in were within Ukraine. Being ethnic Russian has a specific meaning. 

They were Ukrainian citizens living within Ukraine whatever their ethnic background. There are almost 4-5 million ethnic Ukrainians and Tatars in Russia and they are Russian citizens. 

[impulse]

12 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

Who was president in 2014 and orchestrated the regime change?

 

Absent that weak fecklessness, Crimea would still be part of Ukraine, and the Russians would still be paying the annual lease on Sevastopol.

 

That was worse than weak fecklessness.  That was evil war mongering.  That a weak and feckless president (and a corrupt VP) got snookered into.

 

[Eric Loh]

2 minutes ago, impulse said:

That's going to be debated ad nauseum for decades.  But it's beside the point. 

 

Ukraine is in an unwinnable situation, throwing lives away like they're meaningless.  No amount of money is going to change that, only foreign boots on the ground.  Which means WW3 and the risk of Armageddon.  It's time to stop the killing, and start the rebuilding.  The lines haven't moved meaningfully in over 2 years (key word being "meaningfully").  More dead kids isn't going to change that, and it's time to pull US funding to force negotiation.

 

Maybe Russia should stop the killing first. They just unleash bombs yesterday and killed at least 25 people, not soldiers. It was reported that there were 264 Russian drone attacks in last 48 hours. If we are moving towards WW3, it will be Russia who will likely to initiate the deadly move. Trump is abetting Russia aggression. 

[sharot724]

Fight Russia as long as it takes to defeat them for all the death and distruction they spread.

 

[BexMan]

7 minutes ago, impulse said:

That's going to be debated ad nauseum for decades.  But it's beside the point. 

 

Ukraine is in an unwinnable situation, throwing lives away like they're meaningless.  No amount of money is going to change that, only foreign boots on the ground.  Which means WW3 and the risk of Armageddon.  It's time to stop the killing, and start the rebuilding.  The lines haven't moved meaningfully in over 2 years (key word being "meaningfully").  More dead kids isn't going to change that, and it's time to pull US funding to force negotiation.

 

If the aim is to save lives, stopping the flow of information to Ukraine will have the opposite effect. Stopping the supply of defensive Patriot missiles to protect against incoming missiles will also cost lives. The Russians are now going after the Patriot launch systems, so Ukraines ability to defend itself, and save lives, is now being permanently degraded.

[dinsdale]

7 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

They were Ukrainian citizens living within Ukraine whatever their ethnic background. There are almost 4-5 million ethnic Ukrainians and Tatars in Russia and they are Russian citizens. 

It is possible to be a citizen of a country yet be ethnically different. Your argument is moot. Eastern regions of Ukraine have/had large populations of ethnic Russians. This cannot be disputed.

[Eric Loh]

30 minutes ago, dinsdale said:

You make an interesting point without knowing it. Regions taken are somewhat ethnically Russian and controlling these areas will be easier to do as opposed to all of Ukraine. This is why Putin doesn't want all of Ukraine.

Putin make the statement that he will take Ukraine in 3 days. You are avoiding the facts. Sad. 

[Eric Loh]

4 minutes ago, dinsdale said:

It is possible to be a citizen of a country yet be ethnically different. Your argument is moot. Eastern regions of Ukraine have/had large populations of ethnic Russians. This cannot be disputed.

And they are Ukrainian citizens in Uktainian land. Your argument is silly. 

[frank83628]

40 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

All were Ukrainians. Would Putin dare to hold another referendum under Ukraine constitution, referendum recognised by fundamental principles of internally accepted electoral laws and hold the referendum when the country is pacified and not in front of guns and tanks of the Russian army. 

Pop your question on a post card and send it to him

[gargamon]

20 minutes ago, impulse said:

More dead kids isn't going to change that, and it's time to pull US funding to force negotiation.

 

I'm sure you meant to type surrender, not negotiation.

 

Better dead than red.

[impulse]

6 minutes ago, BexMan said:

If the aim is to save lives, stopping the flow of information to Ukraine will have the opposite effect. Stopping the supply of defensive Patriot missiles to protect against incoming missiles will also cost lives. The Russians are now going after the Patriot launch systems, so Ukraines ability to defend itself, and save lives, is now being permanently degraded.

 

Another good reason to come to the table.  With reasonable demands.  Russia can attack and kill Ukrainians at will, and they don't.  They're being very strategic, fighting with one hand tied behind their back.  Ukrainians depend on western (mostly US) money and arms to put up what little defense they can. They can't win.  All they can do is hold onto what they haven't already lost.  It's over, except for futile dying.

 

I, for one, would prefer that we quit spending my kids' money and futures for an unwinnable war on another continent that seems to thrive on wars throughout history.  Not to mention all the Ukrainians who are dying, even if you don't care about Russki kids.

 

 

[impulse]

5 minutes ago, gargamon said:

I'm sure you meant to type surrender, not negotiation.

 

Better dead than red.

 

Negotiation.  Russia could take a lot more of Ukraine than Putin said he wanted, right up front.  Surrender would mean losing Kiev. and Odessa. Ukraine may be able to keep those. 

 

BTW, I hear Zelensky is taking foreign volunteers if you really mean it.

 

[frank83628]

7 minutes ago, gargamon said:

I'm sure you meant to type surrender, not negotiation.

 

Better dead than red.

Really, I think being alive is better all round.  

[dinsdale]

10 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

And they are Ukrainian citizens in Uktainian land. Your argument is silly. 

Ethnically distinct from Ukrainians. What's so difficult about this to understand. It can be said they're Russian Ukrainians just like it's acceptable to say Irish American or Chinese Australian. Ethnicity. Look it up as you either do not know what it means or are you simply trolling.

[BexMan]

5 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

Another good reason to come to the table.  With reasonable demands.  Russia can attack and kill Ukrainians at will, and they don't.  They're being very strategic, fighting with one hand tied behind their back.  Ukrainians depend on western (mostly US) money and arms to put up what little defense they can. They can't win.  All they can do is hold onto what they haven't already lost.  It's over, except for futile dying.

 

I, for one, would prefer that we quit spending my kids' money and futures for an unwinnable war on another continent that seems to thrive on wars throughout history.  Not to mention all the Ukrainians who are dying, even if you don't care about Russki kids.

 

 

Russians do attack and kill Ukrainians at will, they have attacked hospitals and many, many residential areas. Do you not remember the massacres that took place on occupied Russian areas in Ukraine that they blamed on the UK? They have also been enforcing conscription in Ukrainian areas they control and sending them in the meat grinder.

Out of interest, would you be in favour of Putin being allowed a clean slate for the killing he has unleashed?

[NoDisplayName]

28 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

It was reported

 

I'm sure it was.

But did it happen?

[Patong2021]

The USA  has now unilaterally decided that the longstanding agreement that internationally agreed upon borders were inviolable no longer need be respected. Russia  has now been gven the green light to take back Alaska.