Increases in vaccine-preventable disease outbreaks threaten years of progress

[richard_smith237]

15 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

By all means, the superior members of society should devise an actionable Final Solution to resolve the "Antivaxxer Question"…

 

They already have....   they called it Vaccination !!!!... 

 

The word "vaccination" comes from the Latin word vacca, meaning "cow."

 

In the late 18th century, English physician Edward Jenner discovered that milkmaids who had caught cowpox (a much milder disease) seemed immune to smallpox, a deadly disease at the time. In 1796, he tested this by taking pus from a cowpox sore on a milkmaid’s hand and inoculating it into a young boy. The boy didn’t get smallpox - and voilà, the first vaccine was born.

Jenner called the procedure "vaccination" to honour the cow connection - from variolae vaccinae, Latin for "cowpox." Over time, "vaccination" came to refer more broadly to any immunisation procedure.

[richard_smith237]

2 hours ago, Stiddle Mump said:

2 hours ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

What does nature suggest if I get bubonic plague. Eat an apple. Go for a run. 

Nature would say to take care of yourself. Eat nutritious food. Stay away for vaccines.

 

An apple a day - keeps the doctor away.

 

Wrong - nature would 'say'... 30 to 60% us are dead !... 

 

... or if the infection progresses to septicemic or pneumonic plague - the fatality rate would be 100%

 

... but sure... take that apple.....    ignore antibiotics !!! nature has a way, right ? 

 

[rattlesnake]

4 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

They already have....   they called it Vaccination !!!!... 

 

The word "vaccination" comes from the Latin word vacca, meaning "cow."

 

In the late 18th century, English physician Edward Jenner discovered that milkmaids who had caught cowpox (a much milder disease) seemed immune to smallpox, a deadly disease at the time. In 1796, he tested this by taking pus from a cowpox sore on a milkmaid’s hand and inoculating it into a young boy. The boy didn’t get smallpox - and voilà, the first vaccine was born.

Jenner called the procedure "vaccination" to honour the cow connection - from variolae vaccinae, Latin for "cowpox." Over time, "vaccination" came to refer more broadly to any immunisation procedure.

 

Interesting, I did not know that.

 

I have more of a problem with the heavy metals included in the recent versions, which are demonstrably problematic, as well as the frequency of inoculations in babies (c.f. the CDC graph from the other thread where one can verify that a minimum of 17 doses are injected into humans by the time they reach 6 months of age).

[richard_smith237]

1 minute ago, rattlesnake said:

 

Interesting, I did not know that.

 

I have more of a problem with the heavy metals included in the recent versions, which are demonstrably problematic, as well as the frequency of inoculations in babies (c.f. the CDC graph from the other thread where one can verify that a minimum of 17 doses are injected into humans by the time they reach 6 months of age).

 

1) Which heavy metals ?...   

 

Aluminium salts (adjuvants) - found in some flu vaccines, not MMR. They stimulate a stronger immune response. You actually get more aluminium from food and water than from a vaccine.

 

Thimerosal (ethylmercury) - found only in some multi-dose flu vials (not in MMR). It's a preservative and has been mostly phased out due to public concern, even though studies show it's safe in those tiny amounts.

 

 

2) In that 'other thread' you posted a very bold bright alarming infographic which stated a 6 month old baby has had more vaccinations than an us (the reader) ??...  You've now changed that to 17 doses of vaccinations.

 

Interesting how the narrative evolves...   

 

It was a decade ago - but I dont recall 17 doses for my son... if my count is correct - 5 vaccines is the number (12 doses in total - or if you wanted to be particularly alarmist DTP-Hib-IPV is a combo vaccine, so you could count thats as 15 doses - but to do so would really betray some bias.

 

BCG (Tuberculosis) - 1st dose – At birth (only dose)

Hepatitis B - 1st (Birth) / 2nd (2 Mo) / 3rd (6 Mo)

DTP-Hib-IPV (Diphtheria, Tetanus, Pertussis, influenzae type B, Polio) - 1st (2 Mo) / 2nd (4 Mo) / 3rd (6 Mo)

Rotavirus - 1st (2 Mo) / 2nd (4 Mo) / 3rd dose (6 Mo) 

PCV (Pneumococcal Conjugate Vaccine) - 1st (2 Mo) / 2nd  (4 Mo) / 3rd (6 Mo)

 

 

 

 

[rattlesnake]

19 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

1) Which heavy metals ?...   

 

Aluminium salts (adjuvants) - found in some flu vaccines, not MMR. They stimulate a stronger immune response. You actually get more aluminium from food and water than from a vaccine.

 

Thimerosal (ethylmercury) - found only in some multi-dose flu vials (not in MMR). It's a preservative and has been mostly phased out due to public concern, even though studies show it's safe in those tiny amounts.

 

Here is information which those reading can go check by themselves.

 

Ingredients included in the vaccines injected into children's (often babies') bodies:

Polysorbate 80

Thimerosal Mercury

Aluminum

Formaldehyde

M59 Squalene

Acetone Sodium Borate (Borax)

2-Phenoxyethanol

SV40

Triton X-100

Bovine Calf Serum

Poultry Serum

Poultry Byproducts

 

Animal Organs Used To Make Vaccines:

MDCK: Madin Darby Canine Kidney, female Cocker Spaniel

VERO: African Green Monkey Kidney

FRHL: Fetal Rhesus Monkey Lung

CHO: Chinese Hamster Ovary

PK-15: Pork Kidney

RK-13: Rabbit Kidney

SIRC: Rabbit Cornea

 

Harvested human organs used to make vaccines:

HEK-293: Human Embryo Kidney, aborted female; used in development of Ebola & Covid

MRC-5: Human Lung, 14 week old aborted male; used in Polio, Rabies, Chickenpox, Hep A & Shingles

WI-38: Human Lung, 12 week old aborted female; used in Polio, Rabies, Chickenpox, Hep A & Shingles

RA 27-3: Human Kidney, 6 weeks old, used in the Rubella & MMR

PER-C6: Human Retina, 18 weeks old, used in the development of Ebola & Covid

IMR-90: Lung from a 16 week old fetus; to replace the WI-38 line

WALVAX-2: Lung from a 3 month old fetus; to replace the WI-38 and MRC-5 line

[rattlesnake]

20 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

2) In that 'other thread' you posted a very bold bright alarming infographic which stated a 6 month old baby has had more vaccinations than an us (the reader) ??...  You've now changed that to 17 doses of vaccinations.

 

Interesting how the narrative evolves...   

 

It was a decade ago - but I dont recall 17 doses for my son... if my count is correct - 5 vaccines is the number (12 doses in total - or if you wanted to be particularly alarmist DTP-Hib-IPV is a combo vaccine, so you could count thats as 15 doses - but to do so would really betray some bias.

 

BCG (Tuberculosis) - 1st dose – At birth (only dose)

Hepatitis B - 1st (Birth) / 2nd (2 Mo) / 3rd (6 Mo)

DTP-Hib-IPV (Diphtheria, Tetanus, Pertussis, influenzae type B, Polio) - 1st (2 Mo) / 2nd (4 Mo) / 3rd (6 Mo)

Rotavirus - 1st (2 Mo) / 2nd (4 Mo) / 3rd dose (6 Mo) 

PCV (Pneumococcal Conjugate Vaccine) - 1st (2 Mo) / 2nd  (4 Mo) / 3rd (6 Mo)

 

Things have changed a lot in ten years, this is part of the problem.

 

Yes, 17 doses is more than what the typical adult over 35 has had in a lifetime, so this meme was grounded in reality and thought-provoking (which is the purpose of memes), and as I stated in that thread, one would have to be dishonest to disregard the issue raised – if I realise I am not dealing with an honest interlocutor, I usually cut short as my time is very precious.

[impulse]

5 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Here's where Trump, Bhattacharya, RFK Jr. and their fellow anti-vaxers are steering the U.S. and the world to the extent they can influence it:

 

Measles Surge in Southwest Is Now the Largest Single Outbreak Since 2000

 

Growing case numbers suggest that national total will surpass that seen during the last large outbreak in 2019.

 

April 22, 2025

 

The spread of measles in the Southwest now constitutes the largest single outbreak since the United States declared the disease eliminated in 2000, federal scientists told state officials in a meeting on Monday.

The New York Times obtained a recording of the meeting. Until now, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention had not publicly described the outbreak in such stark terms.

...

As of Thursday, the C.D.C. had reported 800 measles cases nationwide, but the current tally is likely to be higher because it takes time for the agency to collate state reports. More than 20 separate outbreaks brought the national case count in 2019 up to 1,249, a figure that the country is likely to surpass this year.

(more)

 

New York Times

https://archive.ph/txXD0

 

That's what happens when you let in millions from the 3rd world.  Probably not coincidental that it's in the Southwest.  Where's the border?

 

And how evil do you have to be to allow that to happen at the same time we weren't even allowed to go out to eat?

 

[richard_smith237]

6 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

 

Here is information which those reading can go check by themselves.

 

Ingredients included in the vaccines injected into children's (often babies') bodies:

Polysorbate 80

Thimerosal Mercury

Aluminum

Formaldehyde

M59 Squalene

Acetone Sodium Borate (Borax)

2-Phenoxyethanol

SV40

Triton X-100

Bovine Calf Serum

Poultry Serum

Poultry Byproducts

 

Animal Organs Used To Make Vaccines:

MDCK: Madin Darby Canine Kidney, female Cocker Spaniel

VERO: African Green Monkey Kidney

FRHL: Fetal Rhesus Monkey Lung

CHO: Chinese Hamster Ovary

PK-15: Pork Kidney

RK-13: Rabbit Kidney

SIRC: Rabbit Cornea

 

Harvested human organs used to make vaccines:

HEK-293: Human Embryo Kidney, aborted female; used in development of Ebola & Covid

MRC-5: Human Lung, 14 week old aborted male; used in Polio, Rabies, Chickenpox, Hep A & Shingles

WI-38: Human Lung, 12 week old aborted female; used in Polio, Rabies, Chickenpox, Hep A & Shingles

RA 27-3: Human Kidney, 6 weeks old, used in the Rubella & MMR

PER-C6: Human Retina, 18 weeks old, used in the development of Ebola & Covid

IMR-90: Lung from a 16 week old fetus; to replace the WI-38 line

WALVAX-2: Lung from a 3 month old fetus; to replace the WI-38 and MRC-5 line

 

That list is clearly written to sound alarming...   its the sort of list we see in an anti-vax social media post or an Anti-vax website...

 

Given your recent posting of a meme-like alarmist info graphic, I'd argue that you are getting your information of a Social Media Anti-vaccination group...  Anti-Vax facebook group or something similar and simply repasting it here... 

 

While the words and acronyms sound concerning its 'fear-washing'... 

.... "would you really inject 'compound beta-162-zytenol' into your innocent little baby ?"... Or

..... "do you really think something made with Chihuahas left testis is safe to inject into a defenceless infant" .... 

 

Lets face it - none of any of the list below is cause for any concern at all....    there is no Thimerosal Mercury in vaccines any more... the amounts of Aluminium are less than we acquire in daily consumption of food and water.

 

The list below - while 'close' to fact, is really alarmist and nothing more....  It has served to waste some time in a debate while I fact check and debunk...  And this is the issue with such discussions, anti-vaxxers can paste lists and information which look alarming, and they take time and energy to fact check so most people don't bother - but when we do, your lists and information are readily debunked....

... how do you respond ?... "thats just mainstream thinking" ...  its a no win, you'll just past more lists and compounds and mixtures no one knows or understands but sound alarming until they are fact-checked...

... "Compounds"... whoa... "you inject compounds into babies ??"  - anything can sound alarmist, until fact checked.... 

 

 

This is my debunk:

 

Ingredients included in the vaccines injected into children's (often babies') bodies:

Polysorbate 80 – An emulsifier used to help ingredients mix properly; generally regarded as safe, though rare allergic reactions may occur.

Thimerosal Mercury – A preservative containing ethylmercury, not methylmercury; phased out of most childhood vaccines in the early 2000s due to public concern, though shown to be safe at low doses.

Aluminium – Used as an adjuvant to boost immune response; safe in small amounts used in vaccines, much less than environmental exposure.

Formaldehyde – Used to inactivate viruses during production; present in trace amounts far lower than naturally occurs in the human body; considered safe.

M59 Squalene – An adjuvant used in some vaccines (not all); has been used safely in flu vaccines in Europe with no evidence of harm.

Acetone Sodium Borate (Borax) – Used occasionally in stabilising solutions; borax can be toxic in high doses, but vaccine levels are far below harmful thresholds.

2-Phenoxyethanol – A preservative used in some vaccines; generally safe in low concentrations, though large amounts could cause irritation.

SV40 – A virus that was present in early polio vaccines in the 1950s-60s; no longer used, and current vaccines are free of SV40.

Triton X-100 – A detergent used in manufacturing to split cells; not present in significant amounts in final vaccines; considered safe in this context.

Bovine Calf Serum – Used as a growth medium for viruses; removed during purification; no evidence of harm in final vaccine products.

Poultry Serum – Used similarly to bovine serum in virus cultivation; well-controlled for safety; not present in final vaccine.

Poultry Byproducts – Used in egg-based vaccine production (e.g. flu); final vaccines are purified and free from byproducts; safe for most unless allergic to eggs.

 

Animal Organs Used To Make Vaccines:

MDCK: Madin Darby Canine Kidney, female Cocker Spaniel – Used to grow flu viruses for vaccines; highly purified in final product; no evidence of harm.

VERO: African Green Monkey Kidney – Used in making polio and other vaccines; cells are filtered out in processing; safe for human use.

FRHL: Fetal Rhesus Monkey Lung – Used in virology research and production; not present in final vaccines; processed to remove cells.

CHO: Chinese Hamster Ovary – Widely used in biotech for protein production; very common, thoroughly purified in end products.

PK-15: Pork Kidney – Used in viral vaccine development; well-regulated and not present in final product; no known risk to humans.

RK-13: Rabbit Kidney – Used in some research and vaccine processes; not part of final vaccine; no health risk to recipients.

SIRC: Rabbit Cornea – Used in lab testing and not typically found in final vaccines; minimal concern for safety.

 

Harvested human organs used to make vaccines:

HEK-293: Human Embryo Kidney, aborted female; used in development of Ebola & Covid – A cell line from a 1970s abortion; widely used for research; cells are cloned, not taken from new tissue; not harmful or present in final vaccines.

MRC-5: Human Lung, 14 week old aborted male; used in Polio, Rabies, Chickenpox, Hep A & Shingles – Cell line developed in 1966; only lab-grown descendants are used; no fetal tissue in vaccines themselves.

WI-38: Human Lung, 12 week old aborted female; used in Polio, Rabies, Chickenpox, Hep A & Shingles – Similar to MRC-5, developed in 1962; not part of final vaccine; used for growing viruses in early stages.

RA 27-3: Human Kidney, 6 weeks old, used in the Rubella & MMR – Virus strain originally grown in fetal cells; final vaccine does not contain these cells.

PER-C6: Human Retina, 18 weeks old, used in the development of Ebola & Covid – Developed in 1985; used in some COVID-19 vaccine production; cells not included in vaccines.

IMR-90: Lung from a 16 week old fetus; to replace the WI-38 line – Another lab-grown cell line from decades ago; safe and only used in early production.

WALVAX-2: Lung from a 3 month old fetus; to replace the WI-38 and MRC-5 line – A more recent cell line (2015); used in some vaccine research; not part of the final injectable product.

[richard_smith237]

32 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

 

Things have changed a lot in ten years, this is part of the problem.

 

Yes, 17 doses is more than what the typical adult over 35 has had in a lifetime, so this meme was grounded in reality and thought-provoking (which is the purpose of memes), and as I stated in that thread, one would have to be dishonest to disregard the issue raised – if I realise I am not dealing with an honest interlocutor, I usually cut short as my time is very precious.

 

I've actually received more vaccinations in adulthood than I ever did as a child. I’d likely have had even more at a younger age had I been born a decade or two later.

 

As you've rightly pointed out, the landscape of vaccination has evolved significantly over the past ten years. That’s why your comment and info graphic was only misleading, it was alarmist and disingenuous...

 

... implying that infants today are somehow being 'over-vaccinated' and placed at risk, while adults are somehow being neglected.

 

That simply isn’t the case. In fact, the range of available vaccines has expanded considerably, not just for children but for adults as well.

 

Take a moment to consider: as an adult, haven’t you received vaccinations for Polio, Tetanus, Diphtheria, Typhoid, Tuberculosis, Hepatitis (A and B), Measles, or Mumps? Many of us have - because these vaccines either weren’t part of the standard childhood immunisation schedule when we were young because they weren't available back then - which is why children were still seen walking around with leg braces and horrific images of kids in iron lungs were not uncommon...  that doesn't happen anymore.

 

 

 

[rattlesnake]

24 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

That list is clearly written to sound alarming...   its the sort of list we see in an anti-vax social media post or an Anti-vax website...

 

Given your recent posting of a meme-like alarmist info graphic, I'd argue that you are getting your information of a Social Media Anti-vaccination group...  Anti-Vax facebook group or something similar and simply repasting it here... 

 

While the words and acronyms sound concerning its 'fear-washing'... 

.... "would you really inject 'compound beta-162-zytenol' into your innocent little baby ?"... Or

..... "do you really think something made with Chihuahas left testis is safe to inject into a defenceless infant" .... 

 

Lets face it - none of any of the list below is cause for any concern at all....    there is no Thimerosal Mercury in vaccines any more... the amounts of Aluminium are less than we acquire in daily consumption of food and water.

 

The list below - while 'close' to fact, is really alarmist and nothing more....  It has served to waste some time in a debate while I fact check and debunk...  And this is the issue with such discussions, anti-vaxxers can paste lists and information which look alarming, and they take time and energy to fact check so most people don't bother - but when we do, your lists and information are readily debunked....

... how do you respond ?... "thats just mainstream thinking" ...  its a no win, you'll just past more lists and compounds and mixtures no one knows or understands but sound alarming until they are fact-checked...

... "Compounds"... whoa... "you inject compounds into babies ??"  - anything can sound alarmist, until fact checked.... 

 

 

This is my debunk:

 

Ingredients included in the vaccines injected into children's (often babies') bodies:

Polysorbate 80 – An emulsifier used to help ingredients mix properly; generally regarded as safe, though rare allergic reactions may occur.

Thimerosal Mercury – A preservative containing ethylmercury, not methylmercury; phased out of most childhood vaccines in the early 2000s due to public concern, though shown to be safe at low doses.

Aluminium – Used as an adjuvant to boost immune response; safe in small amounts used in vaccines, much less than environmental exposure.

Formaldehyde – Used to inactivate viruses during production; present in trace amounts far lower than naturally occurs in the human body; considered safe.

M59 Squalene – An adjuvant used in some vaccines (not all); has been used safely in flu vaccines in Europe with no evidence of harm.

Acetone Sodium Borate (Borax) – Used occasionally in stabilising solutions; borax can be toxic in high doses, but vaccine levels are far below harmful thresholds.

2-Phenoxyethanol – A preservative used in some vaccines; generally safe in low concentrations, though large amounts could cause irritation.

SV40 – A virus that was present in early polio vaccines in the 1950s-60s; no longer used, and current vaccines are free of SV40.

Triton X-100 – A detergent used in manufacturing to split cells; not present in significant amounts in final vaccines; considered safe in this context.

Bovine Calf Serum – Used as a growth medium for viruses; removed during purification; no evidence of harm in final vaccine products.

Poultry Serum – Used similarly to bovine serum in virus cultivation; well-controlled for safety; not present in final vaccine.

Poultry Byproducts – Used in egg-based vaccine production (e.g. flu); final vaccines are purified and free from byproducts; safe for most unless allergic to eggs.

 

Animal Organs Used To Make Vaccines:

MDCK: Madin Darby Canine Kidney, female Cocker Spaniel – Used to grow flu viruses for vaccines; highly purified in final product; no evidence of harm.

VERO: African Green Monkey Kidney – Used in making polio and other vaccines; cells are filtered out in processing; safe for human use.

FRHL: Fetal Rhesus Monkey Lung – Used in virology research and production; not present in final vaccines; processed to remove cells.

CHO: Chinese Hamster Ovary – Widely used in biotech for protein production; very common, thoroughly purified in end products.

PK-15: Pork Kidney – Used in viral vaccine development; well-regulated and not present in final product; no known risk to humans.

RK-13: Rabbit Kidney – Used in some research and vaccine processes; not part of final vaccine; no health risk to recipients.

SIRC: Rabbit Cornea – Used in lab testing and not typically found in final vaccines; minimal concern for safety.

 

Harvested human organs used to make vaccines:

HEK-293: Human Embryo Kidney, aborted female; used in development of Ebola & Covid – A cell line from a 1970s abortion; widely used for research; cells are cloned, not taken from new tissue; not harmful or present in final vaccines.

MRC-5: Human Lung, 14 week old aborted male; used in Polio, Rabies, Chickenpox, Hep A & Shingles – Cell line developed in 1966; only lab-grown descendants are used; no fetal tissue in vaccines themselves.

WI-38: Human Lung, 12 week old aborted female; used in Polio, Rabies, Chickenpox, Hep A & Shingles – Similar to MRC-5, developed in 1962; not part of final vaccine; used for growing viruses in early stages.

RA 27-3: Human Kidney, 6 weeks old, used in the Rubella & MMR – Virus strain originally grown in fetal cells; final vaccine does not contain these cells.

PER-C6: Human Retina, 18 weeks old, used in the development of Ebola & Covid – Developed in 1985; used in some COVID-19 vaccine production; cells not included in vaccines.

IMR-90: Lung from a 16 week old fetus; to replace the WI-38 line – Another lab-grown cell line from decades ago; safe and only used in early production.

WALVAX-2: Lung from a 3 month old fetus; to replace the WI-38 and MRC-5 line – A more recent cell line (2015); used in some vaccine research; not part of the final injectable product.

 

Of course I get my anti-vaccine information from anti-vaccine sources, just as you get yours from pro-vaccine sources. Both will naturally be formulated according to their bias, emphasising or minimising specific aspects in order to convey the desired message.

 

The core issue is that people never think independently or research things in order to form their own opinion: they should.

 

As I said, people can get acquainted with the information, parse what they deem to be relevant or not and draw their own conclusions. That's all it is about. There are moral and ethical issues about certain facts, such as the use of aborted fetal cells to develop what is colloquially referred to as "medecine". I certainly have reservations about this, and the problem is that the vast majority of the population is not informed about it.

[rattlesnake]

32 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

I've actually received more vaccinations in adulthood than I ever did as a child. I’d likely have had even more at a younger age had I been born a decade or two later.

 

As you've rightly pointed out, the landscape of vaccination has evolved significantly over the past ten years. That’s why your comment and info graphic was only misleading, it was alarmist and disingenuous...

 

... implying that infants today are somehow being 'over-vaccinated' and placed at risk, while adults are somehow being neglected.

 

That simply isn’t the case. In fact, the range of available vaccines has expanded considerably, not just for children but for adults as well.

 

Take a moment to consider: as an adult, haven’t you received vaccinations for Polio, Tetanus, Diphtheria, Typhoid, Tuberculosis, Hepatitis (A and B), Measles, or Mumps? Many of us have - because these vaccines either weren’t part of the standard childhood immunisation schedule when we were young because they weren't available back then - which is why children were still seen walking around with leg braces and horrific images of kids in iron lungs were not uncommon...  that doesn't happen anymore.

 

 

 

 

"The landscape of vaccination has evolved" is your way of putting it. Fine, I respect that.

 

I see that I received approximately 10 vaccine doses between the age of 0 and 18, and that this number has now risen to 70 as per CDC guidelines. No need to put a spin on it, that's the reality. And the inconvenient fact is that people nowadays are not healthier than the previous couple of generations, quite the contrary.

 

Those who start threads and routinely complain about "the rise of distrust in science" should take a step back, acknowledge these figures and understand that a significant number of people are simply not okay with this.

[richard_smith237]

2 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

Of course I get my anti-vaccine information from anti-vaccine sources, just as you get yours from pro-vaccine sources.

 

No.. I don't get my information from 'pro-vaccine' sources - I just get the information from 'scientific sources'... 

 

You call them 'pro-vaccine'...  for everyone else, its just scientific fact...

 

Whereas the anti-vaccination propoganda can so easily be debunked and picked apart.

 

2 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

Both will naturally be formulated according to their bias, emphasising or minimising specific aspects in order to convey the desired message.

 

The core issue is that people never think independently or research things in order to form their own opinion: they should.

 

It’s a bit of a conundrum, really. Take the flat Earth analogy: I could insist on travelling to space to see the planet’s curvature with my own eyes, or I could choose to understand and trust the science - and the testimony of those who have seen it for themselves.

 

Biology presents a similar case. I’ve never seen a cell with the naked eye, yet I accept its existence because scientists, armed with evidence and expertise, tell us so.

 

The reality is, we can't spend our lives independently verifying every claim. I believe Concorde flew at Mach 2, not because I witnessed it firsthand, but because the overwhelming body of evidence leaves little room for doubt.

 

Vaccination is no different. The scientific consensus, bolstered by decades of rigorous study, shows that vaccines work - and that they are overwhelmingly safe. Of course, like anything in life, there are risks. But then, even eating grapes carries a risk if you look closely enough.

 

 

2 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

As I said, people can get acquainted with the information, parse what they deem to be relevant or not and draw their own conclusions. That's all it is about. There are moral and ethical issues about certain facts, such as the use of aborted fetal cells to develop what is colloquially referred to as "medecine". I certainly have reservations about this, and the problem is that the vast majority of the population is not informed about it.

 

Do we really need to be informed about it ? Must we really be outraged about it?

I mean, let’s take a step back - what exactly is the moral dilemma in using fetal fibroblast cells, especially if they come from long-ago, ethically approved sources? If these cells - replicated for decades in a lab - can be used to develop life-saving treatments or vaccines, is that not a profoundly humane application?

 

Where, truly, is the ethical conflict? I struggle to see one. We’re not talking about new terminations or ongoing exploitation, but about scientific progress built on a legacy that, however complex, now holds the potential to preserve countless lives.

 

Isn’t that a moral good in itself?

[richard_smith237]

5 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

"The landscape of vaccination has evolved" is your way of putting it. Fine, I respect that.

 

I see that I received approximately 10 vaccine doses between the age of 0 and 18, and that this number has now risen to 70 as per CDC guidelines. No need to put a spin on it, that's the reality. And the inconvenient fact is that people nowadays are not healthier than the previous couple of generations, quite the contrary.

 

Development of vaccines that were not available to you and I in childhood is an incredible medical advancement.

 

Your statement is also flawed - life expectancy is higher now than its ever been. The reasons are multifaceted and vaccination can be factored in to that.

 

5 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

Those who start threads and routinely complain about "the rise of distrust in science" should take a step back, acknowledge these figures and understand that a significant number of people are simply not okay with this.

 

That’s all well and good - provided you’re also prepared to avoid international travel and accept the ethical responsibility of potentially endangering others, all based on personal, untrained beliefs.

 

If you find yourself placing more trust in the voices of anti-vaccine activists than in the collective knowledge of conventional medicine, it’s worth asking - what would happen if the tables turned?

 

If you became formally educated in virology, witnessed the overwhelming evidence first-hand, and shifted toward supporting vaccination, would your former peers simply dismiss you as having been “taken in by the mainstream”?

 

Likewise, if I immersed myself in virology and, despite the data, emerged convinced that vaccines did more harm than good - would the broader scientific community ignore me as just another anti-vax eccentric?

 

The real dilemma lies in who we choose to trust. And in a world where doubt is easily spread, I find grounding in one thing: statistics..... Life expectancy continues to rise. The heartbreaking images of children ravaged by Polio and Measles have faded. Smallpox has vanished. Diphtheria is virtually forgotten. Rabies? Hardly a death sentence anymore.

 

And that’s not magic. That’s medicine, thats vaccines.

 

Those who reject vaccination must understand - they aren’t just questioning science; they’re challenging decades of global health progress that has spared millions from suffering.

 

 

[GinBoy2]

I have to grimace every time I read the anti vac nonsense.

 

I think most of the demographic reading this remember a time before vaccines.

 

I was the first generation to receive the polio vaccine when I was 5 years old. I remember my mother thanking the doctor so much as I got the vaccine on a sugar lump, she cried when she thanked the Doctor

 

Back then there were hospitals still full of folks destined to spend their lives in iron lungs

 

Measles, chickenpox mumps, kids died ffs.

 

Our mothers took us to pox parties to try to head it off, but kids still died or were handicapped because of it.

 

The trouble with young parents today, they have no memory of what it was like before vaccines, and they buy into the nonsense of online conspiracy  theories

[rattlesnake]

5 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

No.. I don't get my information from 'pro-vaccine' sources - I just get the information from 'scientific sources'... 

 

You call them 'pro-vaccine'...  for everyone else, its just scientific fact...

 

Whereas the anti-vaccination propoganda can so easily be debunked and picked apart.

 

I could give you a whole list of scientists who refute the safety and effectiveness of vaccines, and the reply would be, as always, that they essentially have gone astray (usually for reason of being psychologically unstable or financially motivated).

 

In my view, any break from the current dogma can only come from those very institutions which have installed this unwavering trust in the first place: if the HHS releases unfavourable information about vaccines, then we might have a paradigm change. Failing this, it's just going to be the same old back and forth between "pros" and "antis".

 

Which is why we should pick up this debate in September, if RFK follows through.

 

5 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Do we really need to be informed about it ? Must we really be outraged about it?

I mean, let’s take a step back - what exactly is the moral dilemma in using fetal fibroblast cells, especially if they come from long-ago, ethically approved sources? If these cells - replicated for decades in a lab - can be used to develop life-saving treatments or vaccines, is that not a profoundly humane application?

 

Where, truly, is the ethical conflict? I struggle to see one. We’re not talking about new terminations or ongoing exploitation, but about scientific progress built on a legacy that, however complex, now holds the potential to preserve countless lives.

 

Isn’t that a moral good in itself?

 

Beyond the fact that I personally find it downright creepy (I appreciate that some people may not care, fair enough), Dr Tenpenny, for example, has written about WI-38 and MRC-5 fetal cell lines used in vaccine production, with the subsequent issue of opposite-gender chromosomes in developing infants, and the potential mutations and autoimmune disorders this entails.

 

Yes, this is "disproved" etc., hence my first comment above, we're not going to truly progress on this issue until truly independent testing has been carried out, as explained and intended by RFK.

[rattlesnake]

4 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

The real dilemma lies in who we choose to trust. And in a world where doubt is easily spread, I find grounding in one thing: statistics..... Life expectancy continues to rise. The heartbreaking images of children ravaged by Polio and Measles have faded. Smallpox has vanished. Diphtheria is virtually forgotten. Rabies? Hardly a death sentence anymore.

 

And that’s not magic. That’s medicine, thats vaccines.

 

 

Statistics can be hidden, amplified or manipulated. Need I remind you of the billions the pharmaceutical industry paid in fines for a plethora of crimes ranging from data tampering and fraudulent advertising to misleading statements and kickbacks paid to physicians? We are not talking about a benevolent enterprise, but of a criminal cartel in the strictest sense of the term.

 

Regarding polio, the unilateral view that it was eradicated by vaccines has long been challenged with facts, by fringe medical practitioners ("fringe" does not mean "incompetent"), the latest occurrence being Dr Suzanne Humphries. The below 7-minute video (the second one, "When the conversation turned to polio…") lays out the essential points and is worth watching. 

 

Just because everybody believes something doesn't make it true, especially when there are colossal amounts of money at stake.

 

 

[BritManToo]

6 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

The trouble with young parents today, they have no memory of what it was like before vaccines, and they buy into the nonsense of online conspiracy  theories

But I do have memories about what it was like before vaccines, and nobody died.

(parents born in the early 1910s, grandparents born in 1870s).

No vaccines and none of our family ever died from disease, and they all were part of families of 8 kids.

 

The only really hard times they ever went through was semi-starvation during WW1.

 

Also no autism, no diabetes, no cancer, and the women often lived into their 80s and 90s.

Death was generally childbirth, old age, war and heart disease. 

[Red Phoenix]

8 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

They already have....   they called it Vaccination !!!!... 

 

The word "vaccination" comes from the Latin word vacca, meaning "cow."

 

In the late 18th century, English physician Edward Jenner discovered that milkmaids who had caught cowpox (a much milder disease) seemed immune to smallpox, a deadly disease at the time. In 1796, he tested this by taking pus from a cowpox sore on a milkmaid’s hand and inoculating it into a young boy. The boy didn’t get smallpox - and voilà, the first vaccine was born.

Jenner called the procedure "vaccination" to honour the cow connection - from variolae vaccinae, Latin for "cowpox." Over time, "vaccination" came to refer more broadly to any immunisation procedure.

 

What you didn't mention are the earlier (and later) victims of Jenner's experiments with his vaccination-discovery. 

That young boy that survived that horrible experimental innoculation, must have had a very strong innate immune system.  Other human guinea pigs of Jenner's experiments weren't so lucky (including his own son). 

Medical history has been rewritten to fit the narrative and made fraudsters like Jenner, Pasteur and Salk into heroes.  But yes, you need to dig deeper than just doing a Google search or limiting yourself to 'approved sources' to uncover the origins of the virology and vaccinology quackery.

 

[Fat is a type of crazy]

2 hours ago, BritManToo said:

But I do have memories about what it was like before vaccines, and nobody died.

(parents born in the early 1910s, grandparents born in 1870s).

No vaccines and none of our family ever died from disease, and they all were part of families of 8 kids.

 

The only really hard times they ever went through was semi-starvation during WW1.

 

Also no autism, no diabetes, no cancer, and the women often lived into their 80s and 90s.

Death was generally childbirth, old age, war and heart disease. 

Wasn't there those kids in your class who ... weren't quite right.. or struggled with study but they just thought it was what it was 

Maybe war got to them before the other things had a chance

With all the good vaccines have done it's a bit sad that .. likely due to the greed and skullduggery that is real in big pharma .. the vaccines themselves get a bad rap

 

[rattlesnake]

8 hours ago, BritManToo said:

But I do have memories about what it was like before vaccines, and nobody died.

(parents born in the early 1910s, grandparents born in 1870s).

No vaccines and none of our family ever died from disease, and they all were part of families of 8 kids.

 

The only really hard times they ever went through was semi-starvation during WW1.

 

Also no autism, no diabetes, no cancer, and the women often lived into their 80s and 90s.

Death was generally childbirth, old age, war and heart disease. 

 

Same here.

[richard_smith237]

8 hours ago, BritManToo said:

But I do have memories about what it was like before vaccines, and nobody died.

(parents born in the early 1910s, grandparents born in 1870s).

No vaccines and none of our family ever died from disease, and they all were part of families of 8 kids.

 

The only really hard times they ever went through was semi-starvation during WW1.

 

Also no autism, no diabetes, no cancer, and the women often lived into their 80s and 90s.

Death was generally childbirth, old age, war and heart disease. 

 

Thats a textbook example of survivorship bias.

 

Its the same as the 'seatbelt argument'...... "I never used a seatbelt and I’m fine"

 

It ignores the countless individuals who didn’t survive because they didn’t wear a seatbelt.

 

You only hear from those who made it through. The same flawed logic applies when people say, "We survived childhood without vaccines and we turned out fine."

 

 

Those fortunate enough to survive deadly diseases like smallpox, measles, polio, cholera, and tuberculosis were the lucky ones - often with better genetics, access to care, or sheer chance. They went on to have children, and their children had children. The millions who weren’t so lucky? They died. Often young. Often before reproducing. And because of that, their line ended there. Their potential offspring  -  and their descendants - were never born, never given the chance to look back and say, "See? We didn't need vaccines."

 

So no - the "we survived without vaccines" narrative is not proof of anything except that you’re a statistical exception, living in the echo of a privilege or fortune you likely don't even recognise.

 

It’s anecdotal survivorship, not a valid argument.

 

And, diseases like autism, diabetes, and cancer also existed back then. They just weren’t diagnosed. Medical science didn't have the tools, tests, or terminology to understand them properly. People died of what were often vaguely labelled as "wasting diseases," "nervous conditions," or simply "failure to thrive."

 

Infant mortality was tragically common. Life expectancy was dramatically lower. Many of today’s chronic illnesses were either misdiagnosed or not understood at all.

 

So when people romanticise the past with “things were better before vaccines and modern medicine,” what they’re really saying is, "We survived because others didn’t."

[Stiddle Mump]

Have to ask; ''what are vaccines for?''

 

Te definition has changed down the years. Usually to fit in with the virologists wishes, no doubt.

 

But before we consider the vax, any vax, should we not ask what on earth are they for? Another question that springs to mind; ''do we have an immune system?'' And! ''Can the body learn?'' Or, as I believe, it is more of a maintenance system, that depends upon being well nourished to function as it should..

 

If the body cannot learn Then what is the point of filling it with toxic junk to prevent something? And the theory of viruses should also be examined, openly, through science, rather than money. What actually is disease? 

 

These questions should be discussed/debated/addressed openly before vaccines even get a mention. Or, we could be putting the cart before the horse. And, of course we are doing just that; at the behest of Big Pharma/money.

 

Nature has the answers we seek.

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

That's a textbook example of survivorship bias.

 

Its the same as the 'seatbelt argument'...... "I never used a seatbelt and I’m fine"

Same for you,

"I had the vaccinations and I'm fine."

But a lot of vaccinated kids weren't fine.

[xylophone]

14 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

I have to grimace every time I read the anti vac nonsense.

 

I think most of the demographic reading this remember a time before vaccines.

 

I was the first generation to receive the polio vaccine when I was 5 years old. I remember my mother thanking the doctor so much as I got the vaccine on a sugar lump, she cried when she thanked the Doctor

 

Back then there were hospitals still full of folks destined to spend their lives in iron lungs

 

Measles, chickenpox mumps, kids died ffs.

 

Our mothers took us to pox parties to try to head it off, but kids still died or were handicapped because of it.

 

The trouble with young parents today, they have no memory of what it was like before vaccines, and they buy into the nonsense of online conspiracy  theories

I too grimace when I read the anti-vaccination nonsense and the nonsense about there being no such thing as a virus or bacteria and it makes my blood boil.

 

I too was born in the UK just after the Second World War and remember getting the MMR vaccination and my mother was very pleased that I did, however polio was still around in those days and I had many experiences with kids who had contracted it, so my mother was extremely pleased when the vaccination became available for polio sometime in the mid-50s.

 

But already the effects of polio on children were all around us and the leg irons and wheelchairs were a common sight. In fact I spent the first seven years or so of my school life being the "carer" for a boy called Peter who had contracted polio and was paralysed from the waist down, pushing him around in his wheelchair in the two schools that we went to.

 

I also remember other kids with leg irons on and in those days I wondered what had caused this, and of course as the information about polio and the vaccine to prevent it became available, it became quite clear.

 

One of the saddest times was when I was in my teens and there was a particular coffee shop in my town which kids of my age would use as a meeting place, and in that coffee shop I met a quite lovely/very attractive girl who would have been about 17 or 18 and she had contracted polio and she was basically paralysed from the waist down so she wore the leg irons, but she had a great personality and didn't seem to let it bother her.

 

Furthermore her parents were fairly wealthy, so they bought her a little three wheeler car (similar to the Reliant Robin I think) and adapted it so that she could basically drive it (don't ask me how) and that's how she came to visit our coffee shop.

 

I hadn't seen her for a while and wondered as to her whereabouts, and it was then that I heard she had died, having crashed the little car and being trapped in it because of her leg irons, and was burnt to death – – poor girl.

 

So all in all, I don't have good memories of polio and I'm so pleased that I was able to get vaccinated and the amount of vaccinations I've had over my life, including quite a few for tetanus for injuries, and from football, and various vaccinations for diseases when I worked overseas in Africa, have probably saved my life. I haven't counted how many but it would easily be in double figures.

 

I admire the posters on here who take the time to do their research and explain the ins and outs of vaccines and vaccinations and the stats which are provided, including trying to disprove the absolute nonsense which is posted, but as can be seen, it is an uphill task trying to educate those that cannot be educated.
 

[connda]

23 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Increases in vaccine-preventable disease outbreaks threaten years of progress, warn WHO, UNICEF, Gavi

Agencies call for sustained investments in immunization efforts amidst looming [U.S.] funding cuts

24 April 2025

 

Immunization efforts are under growing threat as misinformation, population growth, humanitarian crises and funding cuts jeopardize progress and leave millions of children, adolescents and adults at risk, warn WHO, UNICEF, and Gavi during World Immunization Week, 24–30 April.

 

Outbreaks of vaccine-preventable diseases such as measles, meningitis and yellow fever are rising globally, and diseases like diphtheria, that have long been held at bay or virtually disappeared in many countries, are at risk of re-emerging. In response, the agencies are calling for urgent and sustained political attention and investment to strengthen immunization programmes and protect significant progress achieved in reducing child mortality over the past 50 years.

 

“Vaccines have saved more than 150 million lives over the past five decades,” said WHO Director-General, Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus. “Funding cuts to global health have put these hard-won gains in jeopardy. Outbreaks of vaccine-preventable diseases are increasing around the world, putting lives at risk and exposing countries to increased costs in treating diseases and responding to outbreaks. Countries with limited resources must invest in the highest-impact interventions – and that includes vaccines.” [emphasis added]

 

(more)

 

https://www.who.int/news/item/24-04-2025-increases-in-vaccine-preventable-disease-outbreaks-threaten-years-of-progress--warn-who--unicef--gavi

 

So please, please, please - get your mRNA Covid vaccinations regularly, every 6 months for sure. 
Safe and Effective! 

[BritManToo]

16 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

a moment to consider: as an adult, haven’t you received vaccinations for Polio, Tetanus, Diphtheria, Typhoid, Tuberculosis, Hepatitis (A and B), Measles, or Mumps? Many of us have - because these vaccines either weren’t part of the standard childhood immunisation schedule when we were young because they weren't available back then - which is why children were still seen walking around with leg braces and horrific images of kids in iron lungs were not uncommon...  that doesn't happen anymore.

I was born in the 1950s and I've never seen anyone wearing leg braces outside of television and movies. Not one ever, and I was in a big school.

Travelled all over Britain, Spain, France in the 1960s, still didn't see any.

 

How is my world so different to your world?

[hughrection]

22 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Another non-credible COVID misinformation spreade

All I can say is Kettle & Black.

 

You sir are the poster boy for the MRNA vaccine and have been from the very beginning. If I didn't know better and based on your literally 100's if not 1000's of posts during the plandemic and after, I would say that you are getting paid to do so.

 

You are in no way ever open to new sources or new opinions and you have a never-ending source of information in favor of covid vaccinations that is quite astounding.

 

Is there nothing else in your life that is of interest to you because if there is one thing that is sure in this life, it is the Fact that if there is any topic about covid, MRNA, the WHO or anything else medically related to the pharma  business, if a bookie would give me odds, I would bet the farm that you will be posting.

 

Try to fight the need to always dig your feet in every single time because the day is coming when you will be proven very wrong and you are going to feel very silly. ( Although I suspect, you will still be fighting your corner even if proven wrong)  🙂

[BritManToo]

51 minutes ago, xylophone said:

I tooo was born in the UK just after the Second World War and remember getting the MMR vaccination and my mother was very pleased that I did, however polio was still around in those days and I had many experiences with kids who had contracted it, so my mother was extremely pleased when the vaccination became available for polio sometime in the mid-50s.

 

MMR vaccine introduced into the UK in 1988.

MMR vaccine introduced into the USA in 1971.

 

So your mom was still taking you for vaccinations when you were 25 in the USA or 42 in the UK?

 

Polio vaccine injection from 1956, sugar lump from 1962.

Injection or sugar lump?

I had the sugar lump sometime around 1964.

 

I apologise for casting doubt on the veracity of your memories.

But there's clearly more than one factual error in your post.

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

17 hours ago, impulse said:

That's what happens when you let in millions from the 3rd world.  Probably not coincidental that it's in the Southwest.  Where's the border?

 

 Re the Texas outbreak, the CDC has recently reported that almost all of the cases there are from native residents, and only a small portion for international imports.

 

Also, as has been reported, much of the Texas outbreak originated among unvaccinated Mennonite community members, and they're homegrown, not crossing the border from Mexico...

 

But nice try at unsubstantiated deflection on your part, anyways....  😞

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

4 minutes ago, hughrection said:

during the plandemic

 

The fact you refer to the COVID pandemic as a "plandemic" says all anyone needs to know about your conspiracy theory partisan mindset.