16 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Israel is not currently occupying Gaza!

"Full Israeli occupation of Gaza would bring major strategic and moral risks and could massively backfire | World News | Sky News" https://news.sky.com/story/full-israeli-occupation-of-gaza-would-bring-major-strategic-and-moral-risks-and-could-massively-backfire-13407366

Just now, stevenl said:

7 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

No, I am not joking.  Israel is not currently occupying Gaza.

Yes, you love your semantics. Reality not so much.

Stating that Israel is not occupying Gaza after some poster falsely claimed that it was is not semantics, it is non-semantic accuracy.

 

 

13 hours ago, Chris.C said:

Suggesting that the whole population "deserves" collective punishment, including death for voting the "wrong" party is morally indefensible. 

 

I have never suggested the whole population of Gaza "deserves" collective punishment.  I don't believe that, nor have I ever written it. I never used the word "deserves"  in my post, so you aren't quoting me.

 

I do believe the people of Gazan are paying the price of having made bad choices and decisions WITHOUT deserving collective punishment. That's a very common situation in life, whether on an everyday individual basis or conflicts such as Israel-Gaza. 

 

There are countless examples throughout history of innocent people who paid with their lives for the mistakes of their leaders.  During WWII, an estimated 1.5 to 3 million German civilians died, with about 600,000 perishing due to aerial bombardment.  The corresponding estimate for Japan is 350,000 tom 500,000 civilian dead, with 90% killed by U.S. air attacks, including the two atomic bombs. Possibly one-third or more were children under age 18.

 

Did any of these German or Japanese civilians deserve to die?  No, they didn't, but their deaths were the inescapable consequence of mistakes by their leaders.  In the German elections of July, 1932, about 37.4% of the voters cast their ballots for the Nazi Party,  making it the largest party in the Reichstag and setting the stage for Hitler's takeover in 1933,  Did the Germans who voted for Hitler deserve to die?  Of course not, but Hitler's supporters, just like his opponents, paid a terrible price for Hitler's actions taken in the name of the German people.

 

Same-same with the Palestinians.  They have been paying for the mistakes their leaders have been making since the 1920s and continue to make.  The Hamas decision to attack Israel on Oct. 7, 2023, will go down as one of the worst decisions in human history.  Just like the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor or Germany's invasion of Poland, it sealed the fate of a huge number of civilians who didn't deserve the awful consequences.

 

13 hours ago, Chris.C said:

 

Saying "they made a bad mistake and are now paying the price" shows a humanitarian catastrophe, a blockade, thousands of civilian deaths, widespread destruction, and lack of food, water, and medical care, as a form of just punishment. That is a profoundly inhumane view.

 

Again, I have never said nor do I believe, the hugely negative effects of war on civilians is a "form of just punishment."  The people of Germany and Japan also suffered "a humanitarian catastrophe, a blockade, thousands of civilian deaths, widespread destruction, and lack of food, water, and medical care"  It wasn't then, nor is it now with Gazans, "a form of just punishment."  It is, however unfortunate and cruel, an inevitable consequence of being on the losing side in a war.

 

13 hours ago, Chris.C said:

You don’t have to pick sides in a way that dehumanizes the other. Standing for human rights means standing for all human rights, whether the victims are Israeli or Palestinian.

 

I don't see how "dehumanizing" enters into the discussion.  I certainly acknowledge all Gazans, including the members and leaders of Hamas, are human.  I have never said anything different.  I would add that the leaders and members of Hamas and other armed groups are exceptionally delusional humans in continuing terrorist tactics against Israel.  The nature of warfare in a densely populated urban area means the Israeli retaliation will cause civilian deaths and suffering, but that's on Hamas.  Destroying Hamas is the best way of standing in the long run for the human rights of Gazans, although the cost is horrific.   

51 minutes ago, Evil Penevil said:

 

 

 

I have never suggested the whole population of Gaza "deserves" collective punishment.  I don't believe that, nor have I ever written it. I never used the word "deserves"  in my post, so you aren't quoting me.

 

I do believe the people of Gazan are paying the price of having made bad choices and decisions WITHOUT deserving collective punishment. That's a very common situation in life, whether on an everyday individual basis or conflicts such as Israel-Gaza. 

 

There are countless examples throughout history of innocent people who paid with their lives for the mistakes of their leaders.  During WWII, an estimated 1.5 to 3 million German civilians died, with about 600,000 perishing due to aerial bombardment.  The corresponding estimate for Japan is 350,000 tom 500,000 civilian dead, with 90% killed by U.S. air attacks, including the two atomic bombs. Possibly one-third or more were children under age 18.

 

Did any of these German or Japanese civilians deserve to die?  No, they didn't, but their deaths were the inescapable consequence of mistakes by their leaders.  In the German elections of July, 1932, about 37.4% of the voters cast their ballots for the Nazi Party,  making it the largest party in the Reichstag and setting the stage for Hitler's takeover in 1933,  Did the Germans who voted for Hitler deserve to die?  Of course not, but Hitler's supporters, just like his opponents, paid a terrible price for Hitler's actions taken in the name of the German people.

 

Same-same with the Palestinians.  They have been paying for the mistakes their leaders have been making since the 1920s and continue to make.  The Hamas decision to attack Israel on Oct. 7, 2023, will go down as one of the worst decisions in human history.  Just like the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor or Germany's invasion of Poland, it sealed the fate of a huge number of civilians who didn't deserve the awful consequences.

 

 

Again, I have never said nor do I believe, the hugely negative effects of war on civilians is a "form of just punishment."  The people of Germany and Japan also suffered "a humanitarian catastrophe, a blockade, thousands of civilian deaths, widespread destruction, and lack of food, water, and medical care"  It wasn't then, nor is it now with Gazans, "a form of just punishment."  It is, however unfortunate and cruel, an inevitable consequence of being on the losing side in a war.

 

 

I don't see how "dehumanizing" enters into the discussion.  I certainly acknowledge all Gazans, including the members and leaders of Hamas, are human.  I have never said anything different.  I would add that the leaders and members of Hamas and other armed groups are exceptionally delusional humans in continuing terrorist tactics against Israel.  The nature of warfare in a densely populated urban area means the Israeli retaliation will cause civilian deaths and suffering, but that's on Hamas.  Destroying Hamas is the best way of standing in the long run for the human rights of Gazans, although the cost is horrific.   

I’m sorry, I must have misread your post or mixed you up with another pro Israeli poster.

Actually, I enjoy your posts and respect your unblinkered views. You are not like the others who seem to think all Palestinians, or perhaps even all Muslims are inferior to them.

4 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

No, I am not joking.  Israel is not currently occupying Gaza.

I suggest you read up about this, 

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2025/5/17/israels-gaza-disengagement-that-paved-the-way-for-conquest

Israeli officials themselves made no effort to hide what they were really up to. In 2004, while the plan was still being discussed in the Knesset, Dov Weisglass, a senior adviser to then-Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, stated point-blank: “The disengagement is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians.”

By “freezing” the political process, Weisglass went on to explain, “you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem”. Thanks to “disengagement”, then, the whole issue of Palestinian statehood had been “removed indefinitely from our agenda” – and all with the “blessing” of the president of the United States of America “and the ratification of both houses of Congress”.

What a difference two years makes 

 

 

 

 

On 8/6/2025 at 9:02 AM, stevenl said:

Never mind the photos, the famine is real. Unless you want to ignore all aid agencies. Even trump has admitted the famine is real.

 

There is no famine. There is a shortage of food. Big, big difference. What the people of darfur are experiencing is a famine. However, since they are black and not muslim, they apparently do not get press coverage.

Of course a shortage of food is  unpleasant. Unfortunately, as long as the Gazans continue to hold hostages and refuse to agree to a truce, their discomfort will continue. What is so difficult in releasing  the 20 remaining hostages and not firing missiles and rockets at Israel?

At this time, ready made meals are entering Gaza in sufficient quantity to provide 1 meal every day for  the 2 million residents as per NBC's report of Aug. 3. Whether Hamas allows the meals to get to everyone is a different story.  This is in addition to food that is still grown locally. The UN likes to say that 86% of cropland is damaged, but it does not  mention that much of it is still in use. The fishing fleet for Gaza is still fishing in its waters. 

 

Famine is thrown around as if it is factual, much like the claims of Israel having cut off Gaza's water supply. 90% of Gaza’s water supply has always been sourced from  the Coastal Aquifer Basin or groundwater wells. The remaining 10% of the water supply came from small-scale desalination units or was purchased from Israel’s national water company, Mekorot. Yet, the media   keeps pushing the the claim that a disruption of electricity from Israel shut down the desalination plant in Gaza and put the  place into a water crisis.  Gaza's desalination plant has been in full operation since July, and yet the media rarely acknowledges this.

 

 

On 8/7/2025 at 12:05 PM, Chris.C said:

I suggest you read up about this, 

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2025/5/17/israels-gaza-disengagement-that-paved-the-way-for-conquest

Israeli officials themselves made no effort to hide what they were really up to. In 2004, while the plan was still being discussed in the Knesset, Dov Weisglass, a senior adviser to then-Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, stated point-blank: “The disengagement is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians.”

By “freezing” the political process, Weisglass went on to explain, “you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem”. Thanks to “disengagement”, then, the whole issue of Palestinian statehood had been “removed indefinitely from our agenda” – and all with the “blessing” of the president of the United States of America “and the ratification of both houses of Congress”.

One person's opinion that has nothing to do with the claim of a famine. It is always the same MO with you; dump of  negative propaganda, no matter what. And once again the large fonts as if it adds credibility.

Just now, Patong2021 said:

And once again the large fonts as if it adds credibility.

Anything that comes from the mouth of Hamas supporters is a lie.

On 8/6/2025 at 6:02 AM, stevenl said:

Never mind the photos, the famine is real. Unless you want to ignore all aid agencies. Even trump has admitted the famine is real.

 

The question is who is responsible for it?  Is Hamas blocking aid getting to the people?  Is Hamas responsible for the war in the first place?  

 

 

Watch: How did Gaza get to the brink of starvation?

 

Before Hamas's 7 October attack, around 650 lorries a day brought aid into Gaza.

 

But now, more than 100 international aid organisations and human rights groups have warned of mass starvation in Gaza.

 

The BBC's diplomatic correspondent Paul Adams explains how the people of Gaza have reached a point of starvation.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/videos/cjey0v4xjz9o

 

To sum up the video:

In January the brokered ceasefire began and the UN flooded Gaza with aid.

Hamas took control of some of the newly arrived goods so Israel broke the ceasefire and cut off all aid, determined to destroy Hamas.

Two and a half months later Israel and US introduced the GHF distribution points but it has been heavily criticised for few distribution points, open for very short time, only in the deep south, only fit and strong able to go and they risk  being shot.

The only answer now to stop starvation is to flood Gaza with food.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, bannork said:

as he cares for severely malnourished children and patients with life-altering gunshot wounds arrive at the hospital, injured while simply trying to secure food for their families.

Yep, Hamas shooting down their own. Time for all of them to die.

4 hours ago, bannork said:

Watch: How did Gaza get to the brink of starvation?

 

Before Hamas's 7 October attack, around 650 lorries a day brought aid into Gaza.

 

But now, more than 100 international aid organisations and human rights groups have warned of mass starvation in Gaza.

 

The BBC's diplomatic correspondent Paul Adams explains how the people of Gaza have reached a point of starvation.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/videos/cjey0v4xjz9o

 

To sum up the video:

In January the brokered ceasefire began and the UN flooded Gaza with aid.

Hamas took control of some of the newly arrived goods so Israel broke the ceasefire and cut off all aid, determined to destroy Hamas.

Two and a half months later Israel and US introduced the GHF distribution points but it has been heavily criticised for few distribution points, open for very short time, only in the deep south, only fit and strong able to go and they risk  being shot.

The only answer now to stop starvation is to flood Gaza with food.

 

 

 

Before Hamas's 7 October attack, around 650 lorries a day brought aid into Gaza.

 

Not food aid. You need to get the facts direct from the UN's own data. Before the attack 500+ trucks entered daily but most of the commodities was building materials, fuel, etc. Food counted for around 70 trucks a day.

 

Gaza crossings: movement of people and goods

https://www.ochaopt.org/data/crossings

7 hours ago, Patong2021 said:

 

There is no famine. There is a shortage of food. Big, big difference. What the people of darfur are experiencing is a famine. However, since they are black and not muslim, they apparently do not get press coverage.

Of course a shortage of food is  unpleasant. Unfortunately, as long as the Gazans continue to hold hostages and refuse to agree to a truce, their discomfort will continue. What is so difficult in releasing  the 20 remaining hostages and not firing missiles and rockets at Israel?

At this time, ready made meals are entering Gaza in sufficient quantity to provide 1 meal every day for  the 2 million residents as per NBC's report of Aug. 3. Whether Hamas allows the meals to get to everyone is a different story.  This is in addition to food that is still grown locally. The UN likes to say that 86% of cropland is damaged, but it does not  mention that much of it is still in use. The fishing fleet for Gaza is still fishing in its waters. 

 

Famine is thrown around as if it is factual, much like the claims of Israel having cut off Gaza's water supply. 90% of Gaza’s water supply has always been sourced from  the Coastal Aquifer Basin or groundwater wells. The remaining 10% of the water supply came from small-scale desalination units or was purchased from Israel’s national water company, Mekorot. Yet, the media   keeps pushing the the claim that a disruption of electricity from Israel shut down the desalination plant in Gaza and put the  place into a water crisis.  Gaza's desalination plant has been in full operation since July, and yet the media rarely acknowledges this.

 

 

Always good to know one of our members knows better than Amnesty, Oxfam, Red Cross/Crescent and others.

There is famine, no matter the official Israeli claims.

 

34 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Always good to know one of our members knows better than Amnesty, Oxfam, Red Cross/Crescent and others.

There is famine, no matter the official Israeli claims.

The Red Cross has not stated that there is a famine. Its fundraising requests state Gaza faces a critical risk of famine . 

 

The Integrated Food Security Phase Classification (IPC),  is a scale used for food security measurement and decision-making.

It was developed in 2004, originally for use in Somalia, led by the World Food Programme and the United Nations' Food and Agriculture Organization. The IPC is a collaboration of 21 organizations and intergovernmental institutions including CARE International, the Oxford Committee for Famine Relief (Oxfam), the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) and the World Health Organization (WHO). It has not declared a famine.

 

Many aid organizations which once profited from the generous aid that used to flow into Gaza would like to get back to business. organizations like Oxfam with its bloated administration  budget has been sorely hurt ever since the largest donor, the USA turned off the  donation tap.

 

There is food insecurity and no doubt people are in discomfort and even suffering. This however, does not meet the criteria of a famine. Your position ignores the fact that the Gaza fishing fleet is still bringing in fish, and that the farms of Gaza are still being cultivated. It also ignores the fact that food supplies are entering Gaza.

 

On 8/7/2025 at 12:52 AM, Nick Carter icp said:

Hamas stealing food and shooting anyone who tries to get in their way 

 

 

Thanks Nick for bringing the topic up!

You're  a expert on the dirty propaganda Hamas & their supporters in the media subject the gullible too. Evil is ingrained on that name Hamas.

 

46 minutes ago, Patong2021 said:

The Red Cross has not stated that there is a famine. Its fundraising requests state Gaza faces a critical risk of famine . 

 

The Integrated Food Security Phase Classification (IPC),  is a scale used for food security measurement and decision-making.

It was developed in 2004, originally for use in Somalia, led by the World Food Programme and the United Nations' Food and Agriculture Organization. The IPC is a collaboration of 21 organizations and intergovernmental institutions including CARE International, the Oxford Committee for Famine Relief (Oxfam), the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) and the World Health Organization (WHO). It has not declared a famine.

 

Many aid organizations which once profited from the generous aid that used to flow into Gaza would like to get back to business. organizations like Oxfam with its bloated administration  budget has been sorely hurt ever since the largest donor, the USA turned off the  donation tap.

 

There is food insecurity and no doubt people are in discomfort and even suffering. This however, does not meet the criteria of a famine. Your position ignores the fact that the Gaza fishing fleet is still bringing in fish, and that the farms of Gaza are still being cultivated. It also ignores the fact that food supplies are entering Gaza.

 

I don't have a position, only an opinion based in facts. Your position however ignores the Israeli attempts to annex Gaza and remove all Palestinians from gaza. Attempts that will succeed. One of the ways of doing that is by not providing enough food.

 

You can call it a famine or something else, Israeli actions, and lack of by not supplying enough food, are warcrimes 

21 hours ago, Patong2021 said:

One person's opinion that has nothing to do with the claim of a famine. It is always the same MO with you; dump of  negative propaganda, no matter what. And once again the large fonts as if it adds credibility.

You are trying to defend the indefensible. There are many Jews that are brave enough to stand up for human rights and cut their obligations to the state of Israel.

i believe one day, maybe in years, you’ll see that defending atrocities was very wrong and realize it is moral monstery.

14 hours ago, stevenl said:

I don't have a position, only an opinion based in facts. Your position however ignores the Israeli attempts to annex Gaza and remove all Palestinians from gaza. Attempts that will succeed. One of the ways of doing that is by not providing enough food.

 

You can call it a famine or something else, Israeli actions, and lack of by not supplying enough food, are warcrimes 

Your facts are falsehoods, such as the  insistence that a famine is in effect, when there isn't.

Israel will not annex Gaza. It is neither practical not acceptable to the Israeli population. There was a good reason why, Israel withdrew from Gaza decades ago. It is not israel's fault that the Gazans did not respect that agreement and instead used the billions of $$ in aid to build a terrorist and military infrastructure and to launch missiles and rockets at Israel. Gaza could have transformed into another Dubai, but the sad reality is that once people are given access to easy money, they lose the desire to build a better society. 

The Gazans are not going anywhere, because the Arab world does not want them or any other Palestinians. The Israeli government  does not have the national support to occupy Gaza for the longterm. The  war with Gaza is a costly affair and Israelis are fed up. The  religious zealots who keep Netanyahu's coalition in power are not the ones who are called up to serve in Gaza, and Israelis don't want to be in Gaza unless it is to free the hostages and to stop the missiles and rockets from being fired. Annexation, is like purchasing a toxic waste dump. The  costs of cleanup do not justify the action.

1 hour ago, Chris.C said:

You are trying to defend the indefensible. There are many Jews that are brave enough to stand up for human rights and cut their obligations to the state of Israel.

i believe one day, maybe in years, you’ll see that defending atrocities was very wrong and realize it is moral monstery.

And yet you defend the  murder of 1200 Israelis, most of whom were sympathetic to the Gazan Arab sentiments and who wanted to live in peace. You ignore the  violent savage atrocities that the Gazans committed on october 7 and you  support the ongoing detention of Israeli hostages. You joined up with a fake name to push your pro hamas propaganda. You are not convincing anyone.

To get a bag of flour for his starving three children, Nedal AbuSharbi arms himself with a knife to protect against thieves and prepares to be shot by the Israeli military.

 

There is so little food in Gaza – in the grip of famine due to a punishing Israeli blockade and the war – that lawlessness has taken over around the land crossings where the few aid trucks are able to get in.

 

The father of three, whose youngest is just five months old, describes desperate, hungry crowds surging toward and attacking the few aid convoys that enter via the northern Zikim crossing.

 

‘Give us the flour – or we will kill you’: Gaza’s starving face impossible choices

 

 

Desperate days indeed, Nedal carries on his story:

 The last time he went, he had to let three trucks go by before he was able to, in the suffocating scrum, grab a single bag of flour.

“My joy was indescribable and I was overwhelmed,” he says, with desperation in his voice. “But on the way home, three young men I’d never seen before came up to me with large knives – and one man with a gun. They threatened me: either give them the bag of flour or they would kill me.