OMG, where do I start with this ?
 

5 hours ago, RayC said:

If only successive Secretaries of State for Work & Pensions had employed your deep-thinking techniques the UK wouldn't have any labour market problems.

 

Successive Governments, including Secretaries of State for Work & Pensions, have created the problems, the UK currently finds itself in, over the last 30 - 35 years.

 

Which is why Labour or the Tories are incapable of fixing the mess, they created.

 

6 hours ago, RayC said:

According to the BMA, the UK needs 60k more health care professionals.

 

Which is rather odd. Considering that the NHS is receiving more money, has more employees, than it ever had in its entire history.

 

The NHS,The BMA et al. Will never, ever admit that the majority of NHS's staffing woes, are down to the NHS's and BMA inability to put together a coherent, recruiting and staffing succession plan.

 

That is why the NHS has relied on nicking staff from around the World since the 50's.

 

That wasn't a typo. Nicking foreign staff since the 1950's.

 

6 hours ago, RayC said:

For example, a French doctor would be a fool if he wasn't enticed by the prospect of paying up to £1751 in visa application fees, £1035 pa in health care costs, have no access to other welfare benefits and being unsure of whether his family will be allowed to join him

 

Why would a French Doctor wish to come to the UK and work in the NHS ?
 

Just a guess, but I think that a Qualified and experienced French Doctor would have a far better life / work balance in France, than they would in the UK.

 

* Better weather

 

* Better Food

 

* Better beaches

 

* Healthier lifestyle

 

* Been a while since I was in France, but more chic ladies, compared to UK lardarrses.

 

Them French doctors must be flocking to join the NHS 😳😳

 

 

4 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

OMG, where do I start with this ?
 

 

Successive Governments, including Secretaries of State for Work & Pensions, have created the problems, the UK currently finds itself in, over the last 30 - 35 years.

 

Which is why Labour or the Tories are incapable of fixing the mess, they created.

 

I agree that previous governments have done little to solve the problems in the NHS and have often increased them. However, the current government cannot be blamed for past mistakes and might come up with a plan to improve matters (Ok, I'll admit that I live in hope more than expectation).

 

Reform are (currently) toying with the idea of proposing a healthcare system based on the French model. I would fully support such a move. I have long believed that the 'mutuelle' model used throughout much of mainland Europe is superior to the British system. However, I very much doubt that this policy will appear in Reform's manifesto: If you tell the British electorate that they will have to pay a contribution - no matter how small - for a visit to the GP, hospital appointments, operation, etc then that party will lose votes.

 

4 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Which is rather odd. Considering that the NHS is receiving more money, has more employees, than it ever had in its entire history.

 

The NHS,The BMA et al. Will never, ever admit that the majority of NHS's staffing woes, are down to the NHS's and BMA inability to put together a coherent, recruiting and staffing succession plan.

 

That is why the NHS has relied on nicking staff from around the World since the 50's.

 

That wasn't a typo. Nicking foreign staff since the 1950's.

 

Once again, we (partially at least) agree. The NHS is inefficient and we have been nicking staff from around the world since the '50s. Imo the blame for that can be lain, in part, at the feet of the likes of the BMA who appear to be resistant to any change.

 

However, there is nothing odd about the call for more doctors and nurses: Demand for the NHS services are increasing as is life expectancy - albeit at a slower rate than it was - and our ratio of doctors to patients is the highest among developed countries. The call for more healthcare professionals seems to be justified.

 

4 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Why would a French Doctor wish to come to the UK and work in the NHS ?
 

Just a guess, but I think that a Qualified and experienced French Doctor would have a far better life / work balance in France, than they would in the UK.

 

* Better weather

 

* Better Food

 

* Better beaches

 

* Healthier lifestyle

 

* Been a while since I was in France, but more chic ladies, compared to UK lardarrses.

 

Them French doctors must be flocking to join the NHS 😳😳

 

 

 

Most French doctors like most UK, Dutch, American, <insert nationality here> and most workers in most sectors will work  in their country of birth for their entire career.

 

However, we should be welcoming and making things as easy as possible for the intrepid minority who wish to saveur the delights of working in the UK. The current 'Skilled Worker' visa process can be viewed as having the opposite effect.

1 minute ago, RayC said:

However, there is nothing odd about the call for more doctors and nurses:

 

There is. If you took the time to research how many Brits cannot get training places.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/education-34326453

 

The BMA is also complicit in this. As are Universities.

 

The whole NHS model is wrong, starting with training and recruitment.

 

Quickly followed by those who are actually self employed.

 

And the Gateway to the NHS " GP's " mostly  being a Private enterprise, not part of the NHS.

 

And until you sort those basics out. There is no hope for the NHS.

 

 

27 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

There is. If you took the time to research how many Brits cannot get training places.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/education-34326453

 

The BMA is also complicit in this. As are Universities.

 

The whole NHS model is wrong, starting with training and recruitment.

 

Quickly followed by those who are actually self employed.

 

And the Gateway to the NHS " GP's " mostly  being a Private enterprise, not part of the NHS.

 

And until you sort those basics out. There is no hope for the NHS.

 

 

 

Yes that it is odd way to go about things but there is nothing odd about the call for more doctors.

 

And in the meantime while we wait for these new doctors to enter the workforce, we will continue to be dependent on overseas labour to fill the gaps which is why we should make the immigration process as easy as possible for applicants. Sadly, that is not currently the case.

19 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

And in the meantime, we will continue to be dependent on overseas labour to fill the gaps which is why we should make the immigration process as easy as possible for applicants. Sadly, that is not currently the case.

 

Well, to take you back to your French Doctor analogy

 

Quote

Yes, the NHS offers a special arrangement called the Health and Care Worker visa for qualified doctors, nurses, and allied health professionals to work in the UK. This visa provides benefits such as fast-tracked entry, reduced fees, and an exemption from the Immigration Health Surcharge for the visa holder and their family. 

 

So your analogy was wrong.

 

And this visa will do nothing to assist the Government, the BMA and anyone else in the NHS sphere, extracting the finger and getting their house in order internally.

 

No need to thank me.

5 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Well, to take you back to your French Doctor analogy

 

 

So your analogy was wrong.

 

And this visa will do nothing to assist the Government, the BMA and anyone else in the NHS sphere, extracting the finger and getting their house in order internally.

 

No need to thank me.

 

The analogy stands. 

 

Did you miss the bit where it states that there are "reduced fees" and "fast-tracked" entry? That's not, 'NO fees' and 'NO barriers to entry'.

 

You're welcome.

2 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

The analogy stands. 

 

Did you miss the bit where it states that there are "reduced fees" and "fast-tracked" entry? That's not, 'NO fees' and 'NO barriers to entry'.

 

You're welcome.

 

I didn't miss anything. Here is the complete paragraph

 

Quote

For example, a French doctor would be a fool if he wasn't enticed by the prospect of paying up to £1751 in visa application fees, £1035 pa in health care costs, have no access to other welfare benefits and being unsure of whether his family will be allowed to join him as opposed to, say, catching a flight to Ireland, rocking at Dublin General, securing a job and then booking flights for his family to join him in Ireland. Alternatively, if this French doctor was a little more adventurous he could even try his luck in Australia, New Zealand, etc where they also make it a lot easier for him to secure employment.

 

Your analogy was totally wrong

 

https://www.gov.uk/health-care-worker-visa

 

You're welcome

49 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I didn't miss anything. Here is the complete paragraph

 

 

Your analogy was totally wrong

 

https://www.gov.uk/health-care-worker-visa

 

You're welcome

 

You are grasping at straws. That's exactly the same link that you posted previously. It did absolutely nothing +/-1 hour ago to negate my analogy and does precisely the same i.e. absolutely nothing to negate my analogy now.

 

Whatever way you want to dress things up, the fact remains that a system which imposes barriers - whether that be in the form of fees, an elongated administrative process or in any other way  - will act as a disincentive to potential migrants, especially when compared with a system of unrestricted freedom of movement.

 

I can only assume that you are arguing for argument's sake and/or are too proud to admit when you are wrong.

26 minutes ago, RayC said:

You are grasping at straws. That's exactly the same link that you posted previously.

 

No it isn't. 

 

26 minutes ago, RayC said:

Whatever way you want to dress things up, the fact remains that a system which imposes barriers - whether that be in the form of fees, an elongated administrative process or in any other way  - will act as a disincentive to potential migrants,

 

Exactly as it should be.

 

Have the qualifications, skills and experience the UK needs, you are welcome ( Skilled Visa route )

 

Don't have the qualifications, skills and experience the UK needs, see ya, wouldn't want to be you.

 

28 minutes ago, RayC said:

especially when compared with a system of unrestricted freedom of movement.

 

Unrestricted freedom of movement, can arguably be considered the epicenter of a lot of the UK's current problems.

 

Which really started to take off  in 1997

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/283287/net-migration-figures-of-the-united-kingdom-y-on-y/

6 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

No it isn't. 

 

 

Exactly as it should be.

 

Have the qualifications, skills and experience the UK needs, you are welcome ( Skilled Visa route )

 

Don't have the qualifications, skills and experience the UK needs, see ya, wouldn't want to be you.

 

Have the qualifications, skills and experience the UK needs to be a doctor, you are welcome (Freedom of movement route)

 

Don't have the qualifications, skills and experience the UK needs to be a doctor sorry you can't practise in the UK, but we have a skill shortage in other sectors which might interest you (Freedom of movement route)

 

6 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Unrestricted freedom of movement, can arguably be considered the epicenter of a lot of the UK's current problems.

 

Which really started to take off  in 1997

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/283287/net-migration-figures-of-the-united-kingdom-y-on-y/

 

Withdrawal of freedom of movement can arguably be considered a major factor in the problems in the UK labour market since 2020.

 

We are going off at tangents. Unless you can supply any new data to negate my view that a system which imposes barriers will act as a disincentive to potential migrants - especially when compared with a system of unrestricted freedom of movement - then I'm going to call it a day.

 

Have the last word and call yourself the victor if it makes you feel better.

15 hours ago, RayC said:

 

 

* Did you seriously think that British workers would all flock to Poland to take advantage of their movie star wages and state benefits? 

 

 No. But 1.2

 

 

How has withdrawing this right of residency improved the lot of other Britons?

 

* The whole EEC/EU idea made some sense for the original 6-12 members, who shared a weak semblance of economic equality. 

 

If you recall there was a shortage of plumbers at one point in the UK. This problem was solved by a large number of Polish tradesmen arriving. Similar story for fruit picking. On that occasion it was mainly Bulgarians and Romanians who picked up the slack.

 

 * A lot more money repatriated than you are suggesting, I would say.

 

Irrespective of how much money was repatriated, these immigrants spent money in the local economy.

 

* That would would have gone down well, I'm sure.

 

You worry about immigrant labour driving down wages, but when it is suggested that a way to mitigate this possibility is to increase the minimum wage you object. You can't have it both ways.

 

* I didn't say that but I would say that rises in UK immigration, both pre and post Brexit, are mainly down to a string of successive pro EU (i.e. hopeless) UK governments.

 

So you are not blaming the rise in immigration in the UK on the EU but you are?

 

* Yep. A success for people smugglers, anyway.

 

Schengen has made doing business in Europe much easier. For the 1.8m cross-border workers in the EU their daily commute bears no comparison to what it was pre-Schengen.

 

And were those 2m British resident in the EU pre-Brexit all actually working in the EU? 

 

How many of these plumbers and fruit pickers were registered and paid tax?

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/332/many-east-europeans-work-hard-but-how-many-pay-tax

 

Most immigrants I spoke in the UK pre Brexit spent minimum cash in the local (UK) economy.

 

Who pays for these wage rises?

 

Schengen has made doing funny business in Europe much easier. I'm not talking about daily commutes! 

 

 

 

 

9 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Why would a French Doctor wish to come to the UK and work in the NHS ?

To escape the foreign illegals that have flooded France?

Just now, BritManToo said:

To escape the foreign illegals that have flooded France?

Maybe all Poms are in Thailand?

27 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

And were those 2m British resident in the EU pre-Brexit all actually working in the EU? 

 

Why does it matter whether they were working or not?

 

The point is that we had the automatic right to reside in the EU up until February 2020, this right is no longer available to a Brit now seeking to go to the EU either for work or retirement.

 

27 minutes ago, nauseus said:

How many of these plumbers and fruit pickers were registered and paid tax?

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/332/many-east-europeans-work-hard-but-how-many-pay-tax

 

I've no idea but in the case of fruit pickers I wouldn't imagine that many earned more than the threshold where they needed to pay tax

 

27 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Most immigrants I spoke in the UK pre Brexit spent minimum cash in the local (UK) economy.

 

Anecdotal. And what is 'minimum cash'?

 

When I lived in Belgium I spent money on the usual things e.g. food, accommodation, transport, kids, gym, a pint here and there, and a day out occasionally, etc. Unless the EU immigrant in the UK had a very generous company package which covered most of their day-to-day expenditure, I would imagine that they would spend money on a similar set of products

 

27 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Who pays for these wage rises?

 

Who pays for any wage rises? If the employer can pass the cost onto his customers (either in full or partially), he will do so; if he can't then he will have to bear the cost himself. 

 

In any event, why is this a particular problem caused by EU workers? If the government thinks that workers are being exploited, an increase in the minimum wage will be given to all workers regardless of nationality.

 

27 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Schengen has made doing funny business in Europe much easier. I'm not talking about daily commutes! 

 

 

An unfortunate by-product of Schengen is that it has made the transportation of illicit goods as well as bona fide products easier. However, the benefits of Schengen far outweigh any negatives.

On 9/22/2025 at 1:02 PM, BritManToo said:

From a man living on the fiddle in a foreign country. Get a proper VISA, and if you can no longer meet the financial requirements go home.

So you'd be happy, as I would,  if this was applied in Thailand?  I am sure there are thousands of geezers here who don't meet IO requirements. And with Pommy Nazi's approach the 800K requirement could become 3M, and enforced within 100 days...

 

Just hope that everyone here will make the mental effort...

15 hours ago, RayC said:

We are going off at tangents. Unless you can supply any new data to negate my view that a system which imposes barriers will act as a disincentive to potential migrants

 

The thread is about Farage, not migrants.

 

The only data that matters, concerning Farage, can be seen here

 

https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/uk-opinion-polls

 

Reform way ahead in the polls

 

Farage out in front as the most popular political leader.

 

The only question that people need to be asking themselves is, how can this be ?
 

The logical and sensible answer is, that the public recognizes busted flushes ( Labour & Tory ) and are looking for change, and Farage is at least, offering them the change that they are looking for.

 

Of course, idiots will come along, and howl that the UK is full of Right wing knuckledraggers, and that is why they are supporting Farage / Reform.

13 hours ago, BritManToo said:

To escape the foreign illegals that have flooded France?

 

In for a shock them 😀😀

12 hours ago, RayC said:

In any event, why is this a particular problem caused by EU workers?

 

Under Freedom of movement, that you keep extolling the virtues of. There was an estimated 3 million EUers in the UK. 6.5 million applied for the right to remain in the UK.

 

According to news outlets like the Guardian and BBC, further millions fled the UK back to their homelands.

 

Mentalists, cannot, will not, or simply refuse to see, the problems that this creates on every public sector in the UK.

 

* Housing

 

* NHS

 

* Dentists

 

* Policing

 

* Social Services

 

* Welfare

 

Just 1 of the reasons the UK has / is, heading down the S bend of the sh*tter

38 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

The thread is about Farage, not migrants.

Nigel Farage Vows Expulsions of Legal Migrants in UK Shake-Up

 

Is the title of the tread. So very much related to migrants.

On 9/23/2025 at 5:07 PM, KannikaP said:

On 9/22/2025 at 1:44 PM, BritManToo said:

He should remove all Muslims from our Christian country.

 

Alternatively, he could just ban all religion from the UK.

 

Obviously, those that choose to worship, not those who were just born in religion.

Same for Buddhists, Shintos and Rastafarians?

 

Are Buddhists, Shintos, Rastafarians (or Hebrews) on track to become a voting majority in the next decade or two?

 

Between immigration and birthrate, Muslims are.

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

Are Buddhists, Shintos, Rastafarians (or Hebrews) on track to become a voting majority in the next decade or two?

 

Between immigration and birthrate, Muslims are.

 

 

 

 

And?  Even if this was true, why does this bother you?  Do you really believe that all Muslims are jihadists?  

10 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Nigel Farage Vows Expulsions of Legal Migrants in UK Shake-Up

 

Is the title of the tread. So very much related to migrants.

 

Why are you spouting kack ?
 

Kindly provide a link to this ridiculous claim.

6 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

And?  Even if this was true, why does this bother you?  Do you really believe that all Muslims are jihadists?  

 

Because when they can outvote you, they can implement Sharia Law(s).  And there is nothing you can do to prevent it, other than outright civil war.  And the UK doesn't have a 2nd Amendment, so that's not going to happen.

 

5 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

 

And?  Even if this was true, why does this bother you?  Do you really believe that all Muslims are jihadists?  

 

Not all muslims are jihadis, but all jihadis are muslim.

5 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Not all muslims are jihadis, but all jihadis are muslim.

 

And it's not as if the moderate Muslims are in control of the countries they're immigrating from.  Zealots may make up a minority, but they have a tendency to collect up the most guns and murder their opponents.

 

And the Quran says it's fine if they're murdering infidels.

 

 

15 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Not all muslims are jihadis, but all jihadis are muslim.

 

Correct.  Fortunately just a small proportion as the overwhelming majority of Muslims reject jihadism, and the word jihad itself has much broader, peaceful meanings in Islam.

1 minute ago, brewsterbudgen said:

Correct

 

I know.

 

I also know that every single Jihadi / Terrorist, needs a backup of active sympathisers and passive sympathizers, and those both come from opposite ends of the moderates.

 

By actively supporting or by passively turning a blind eye.

23 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Been a while since I was in France, but more chic ladies, compared to UK lardarrses.

There are some stunning women in France.  

44 minutes ago, Mike_Hunt said:

There are some stunning women in France.  

 

On that, we agree.  But the hot ones in the west can all do better than to date me in this, the age of swiping left.

 

Watch the YouTube channel Hoe Math for details (and a good chuckle).  Shameless plug, I know...

56 minutes ago, Mike_Hunt said:

There are some stunning women in France.  

 

Indeed

 

The Amalfi Coast of Italy also had an extraordinary amount of stunning women.