We had many discussions of the possibilities of the outcome of the referendum... all eventually agreed that a "no" vote would do nothing to resolve the political quandry Thailand is in at the moment... and if you agreed with everything in the constitution or not, a "yes" vote would at least get the country moving again.

Do they understand the constitution? I doubt it.

thanks for that Jaidee. so am I right to read the above as meaning you and your family believe that if the consitution draft was rejected, a political stalemate (in the form of no general elections perhaps?) would continue?

and yes you highlighted a very important point....do people understand the constitution? Its a very complex document, even for those that dedicate time to studying it, its still not easy. so to expect a lay person to comprehend the document in its entirety is very difficult. hence why i still feel they should have left it until after the next elections, let people who are representatives of the people work on AMENDING the 1997 version (stress on the amend, not a complete rewrite!)

that way it will at least give people some chance to try to make sense of it bit by bit.

We had many discussions of the possibilities of the outcome of the referendum... all eventually agreed that a "no" vote would do nothing to resolve the political quandry Thailand is in at the moment... and if you agreed with everything in the constitution or not, a "yes" vote would at least get the country moving again.

Do they understand the constitution? I doubt it.

thanks for that Jaidee. so am I right to read the above as meaning you and your family believe that if the consitution draft was rejected, a political stalemate (in the form of no general elections perhaps?) would continue?

and yes you highlighted a very important point....do people understand the constitution? Its a very complex document, even for those that dedicate time to studying it, its still not easy. so to expect a lay person to comprehend the document in its entirety is very difficult. hence why i still feel they should have left it until after the next elections, let people who are representatives of the people work on AMENDING the 1997 version (stress on the amend, not a complete rewrite!)

that way it will at least give people some chance to try to make sense of it bit by bit.

I would tend to agree with both of you.

The perception was certainly created that approval of the new constitution was a necessary stepping stone towards democratic elections and on that basis approving it , even if it is not ideal , was a sensible thing to do.

On the other hand most nations with a written constitution tend to mess with them with caution. Tearing up the old one and writing a new one under an unelected administration installed by a military coup is difficult for an outsider to swallow.

The perception was certainly created that approval of the new constitution was a necessary stepping stone towards democratic elections and on that basis approving it , even if it is not ideal , was a sensible thing to do.

which is a misrepresentation, not just by CNS, but in particular and more unforgivable by the Democrats....the leader himself! which is what really annoys me.

On the other hand most nations with a written constitution tend to mess with them with caution. Tearing up the old one and writing a new one under an unelected administration installed by a military coup is difficult for an outsider to swallow.

Some facts:

did we know.....

in the 1997 Constitution it is stated that tearing up the constitution is a capital crime...and subject to capital punishment

is it surprising the coup leaders want to get rid of it? leave them more room to tear up any other next ones thats put to use as and when they feel is NECESSARY

Some facts:

did we know.....

in the 1997 Constitution it is stated that tearing up the constitution is a capital crime...and subject to capital punishment

That will be interesting if Toxin gets in back into power, re-installs the 1997 constitution & brings charges against the coup makers.

Nah.... Not going to happen.

LOL

actually..the other thing that has been incorporated in the new Draft is immunity (maybe wrong word...but basically they are pardoned for conducting a coup)...the pardon itself is not unusual...but in the past coup makers will seek this from the King....and its granted...but this time Im told they somehow incorporated it INTO the constitution itself!

(I dont know the exact detail of how..or what wording is used...but am very interested to study more about this specific point...will report back)

if true......well go figure!! coups as and when they want, and automatically pardoned already!

I guess I cant ever call the generals anything but smart huh.....

LOL

actually..the other thing that has been incorporated in the new Draft is immunity (maybe wrong word...but basically they are pardoned for conducting a coup)...the pardon itself is not unusual...but in the past coup makers will seek this from the King....and its granted...but this time Im told they somehow incorporated it INTO the constitution itself!

(I dont know the exact detail of how..or what wording is used...but am very interested to study more about this specific point...will report back)

if true......well go figure!! coups as and when they want, and automatically pardoned already!

I guess I cant ever call the generals anything but smart huh.....

Probably smarter than Taksin as the Generals (including Prem) would use combined "intelligence" whereas Taksin was a "one man show". Probably his downfall actually. Not spreading the wealth & benefits.

Speaking of which.... You're quite fired up about the current situation Miggy.

May I ask a couple of questions?

Did you believe TRT was the right party or better than the other options for Thailand?

With the huge TRT war chest, do you believe there would ever have been free, fair & democratic elections in Thailand while they were around?

If they needed to be removed, but they owned the bulk of the electorate, what would be another option without the coup?

Cheers.

Miggy does seem to be the 'knowledge and opinion' on this thread! Seems to know what she's talking about.

Miggy does seem to be the 'knowledge and opinion' on this thread! Seems to know what she's talking about.

I do agree. We are the opinion & Miggy is providing the smattering of facts.

She has an unfair advantage though.

I struggle to fully understand the news on TV & reading the newspaper, for me takes about ten minutes to get through 1/8th page article. The Engish language papers are pretty much a waste of time when you want to know, or get a perception of whats really going on at ground zero.

actually I dont remember reading the thai language papers since forever. I dont watch much news either

dont ask me where I get these ideas from

but yes this topic can get me pretty fired up

soundman -- your question on what other way if not the coup....is something Ive discussed numerous times with foreign friends and colleagues. and yes I believe its possible...and I mentioned this in my first long post on this thread.

long process certainly.....but gradual shift from clear majority TRT, to bigger opposition voice...mainly from discontented middle class people unhappy with Thaksin's mis-use of power to benefit his own business (by the way my view-- all politicians do it, but Thaksin with his big and high profile business just does it at a much grander scale)

can fair elections be held? as fair as one can expect in thailand...but certainly one that would have been more fair than the April 2nd elections that many critique complained about. The new elections commission that was put in place after the previous group were given a jail term, was definitely a lot more neutral, and under lots of pressure to not be seen as leaning even a tiiiiiiiiny bit towards Thaksin and TRT.

given the state of the country last year, lots of demonstrations, some not always based on sources I trust...and sure used for their own personal agenda...but many people that joined in the demonstration were a result of a more aware and more interested citizen. I believe this shows theres room for thai people to become more interested in learning and over the years voting to reflect their interest. in fact it has begun to happen. people talk about vote buying, but i have personally heard of those that say sure they will accept the money from the parties, but does not mean they have to vote for that party people are getting smarter

May I ask a couple of questions?

Did you believe TRT was the right party or better than the other options for Thailand?

forgot to answer this one.

yes I believe so. I was in the past already somewhat of a TRT supporter, but I have to say Ive become a fiercer supporter since the coup. actually, wait..rephrase...I wouldnt exactly say that either...lets say Ive become a fiercer opponent of the Democrats and have now reached the point where I have absolutely no faith and trust in them.

democrats were in power for roughly 4 years prior to Thaksin. Chuan Leekpai as prime minister. During that period I cant recall any major policy that was adopted, let alone any big achievement.

then they became opposition. sure opposition task is to check the government, but if this comes in the form of always objecting to anything thats proposed, or criticising measures adopted as being bad, without being able to explain why if its so bad they would use that very same tactic/policy in their campaign.

its easy to point the finger and say Thaksin administration failed in such and such, when compared to their own administration there was nothing implemented..hence cant fail! easy huh.......

accuse TRT of populist campaigns? Thailand's economy has been on the rise since the 80s, the middle class especially in bangkok were doing well.....lots of new rich from the finance and stock markets...but that wealth never trickled down to the poor. not only Chuan's government, but also the ones prior to that did nothing to change this. should we blame the poor for voting for the party that will deliver to them?

many academics, opposition, middle class business people and big firms in bangkok criticised the village fund of 1million. to them that sounds like a lot of money. but how many even dare to admit how much loan write off they received from government subsidised funds after the financial crisis? some individuals alone got many many millions! and Im not even talking about those that received hundreds or thousands of millions!! I didnt hear anyone come out and complain then that the government is using state funds to support these businesses.

back then they were more concerned about industrial products, wanting to make thailand the hub of electronics and parts and such. i dont say its a bad idea, and hence why they receive lots of votes from the businesses.

I cant say there is one right party. POlicies of each party will benefit different groups. Individuals should have a choice who they want to vote for. but the key is....people upcountry and the farmers should not be labelled as being stupid or ignorant if they choose to vote for the party that finally pays attention to their needs. one day I was listening to the radio, where a person from the northeast was interviewed: he said...for 10 years we voted many other parties, none of them did anything for my province, our crops were not doing well, we stayed poor and in debt all the time. after TRT has come in, my life is better.

I believe this shows theres room for thai people to become more interested in learning and over the years voting to reflect their interest. in fact it has begun to happen. people talk about vote buying, but i have personally heard of those that say sure they will accept the money from the parties, but does not mean they have to vote for that party people are getting smarter

This is the problem when one political party has too much money to spend.

They can dictate / buy the EC.

At the last general election, at any polling booth in Issan, there were whordes of TRT overseers watching the public voting - checking they were voting as they were paid to do. This was the point behind the whole fiasco of booth positioning.

So the old EC gets kicked out & sent to gaol. The new one can get bought just as easily. Two years in gaol (if the charges can be made to stick) for 30 mil is a fair price / good retirement package to those guys.

At the end of the day, TRT was only going to keep getting stonger & stonger with countryside backing, & keep making new laws & altering the '97 constitution to suit their purposes, such as "one man emeegency decree", until the public (students, academics etc) in Bkk could stand no more & there would be bloody confontations or, god forbid, revolution.

Cheers.

soundman -- you forget the strong role of the media in your analysis above.

despite what the media complain about, they were a lot more free during TRT rule compared to some years ago. thats why they could dig up the dirt on his administration. what was missing was the power to offer check through blocking of bills to be passed in parliament.

so yes opposition couldnt censure government, but the public can. and with access to media by citizens, and not forgetting international exposure due to globalisation, things are not as simple anymore. I personally dont think that it would have resulted in an uprising before that could happen. but certainly what IS needed is an education for thai people to become more involved in matters that affect our lives. basic thing such as voting is something thats still very much lacking. this needs to be worked on.

I cant say there is one right party. POlicies of each party will benefit different groups. Individuals should have a choice who they want to vote for. but the key is....people upcountry and the farmers should not be labelled as being stupid or ignorant if they choose to vote for the party that finally pays attention to their needs. one day I was listening to the radio, where a person from the northeast was interviewed: he said...for 10 years we voted many other parties, none of them did anything for my province, our crops were not doing well, we stayed poor and in debt all the time. after TRT has come in, my life is better.

This has to be the greatest falsehood believed by the poor people & those ignorant of financial matters, in Isaan. They actually believe they are better of today than in any time in recent history. A complete load of <deleted>. (the interview, not you miggy. ) They are deep down the well, up shit creek in a barb wire canoe, and every month when I go past the long queues of poor waiting to get their cheap loan renewed because they can't pay it back I feel sick to the stomach.

Fact is that while they generally have more consumables, the average household is more debt ridden than in any point in Thai history. I have been in Thailand on and off for eleven years, living for six. Watching the debt ballooning amongst the poor is like watching a train wreck happening from a distance. As soon as they can't pay it back, they will throw their hands in the air & shout "mai mee dtung", hoping the clock will be reset.

One of the reasons Taksin was so happy to push policy for cheap loans to the poor, is because he knew it would get spent on consumables. Mobile phones, call cards, motorbikes made locally with steel from his steel factory, housing which requires more infrastructure resulting in kickbacks to TRT from all government spending etc.

My opinion, if TRT stayed in power, a whole generation would be enslaved. Maybe the grand plan was that exactly. Educated Thai's in the countryside would often comment to me that Taksin will not be happy until all Thai citizens are buying most of their consumables from Taksin run business.

The guy & TRT had to go. I don't support the coup, however, realistically there was no other way to do it in a short timeframe before he accumulated overwhealming power.

Cheers.

I think soundman and I need to have a discussion

this thread has distracted me this afternoon....but I cant reply anymore as of today...need to get some urgent press release done (which was due at 5perhaps!

I blame soundman for my slacking

Reason for edit: thought I had something else to say...but I had the wrong person in mind dont ask......

I believe this shows theres room for thai people to become more interested in learning and over the years voting to reflect their interest. in fact it has begun to happen. people talk about vote buying, but i have personally heard of those that say sure they will accept the money from the parties, but does not mean they have to vote for that party people are getting smarter

This is the problem when one political party has too much money to spend.

They can dictate / buy the EC.

At the last general election, at any polling booth in Issan, there were hordes of TRT overseers watching the public voting - checking they were voting as they were paid to do. This was the point behind the whole fiasco of booth positioning.

So the old EC gets kicked out & sent to gaol. The new one can get bought just as easily. Two years in gaol (if the charges can be made to stick) for 30 mil is a fair price / good retirement package to those guys.

At the end of the day, TRT was only going to keep getting stronger & stronger with countryside backing, & keep making new laws & altering the '97 constitution to suit their purposes, such as "one man emergency decree", until the public (students, academics etc) in Bkk could stand no more & there would be bloody confrontations or, god forbid, revolution.

That's exactly how Marcos was able to solidify his position after having been democratically elected initially. His power intensified over the years as he consolidated power that ended up with 23 years of despotic rule before People Power removed him.

Thaksin was heading in the exact same direction and thankfully, Thailand avoided that long of a destructive reign.

btw, the Thaksin EC only spent 3 days in prison and then got released from their 2 year sentence as it was deemed too "stressful." You are correct in considering that the new EC would have likely been bribed. That's how his outfit worked. It seems they even tried to bribe the Constitutional Court to avoid their TRT party dissolution case.

to Jai Dee.... excellent to involve yourself and encouraging political involvement in your family. I, likewise, did the same as rather more important than taking a particular side on a political issue is having people aware that there IS a political issue and that they need to be involved in it. So, good for you for encouraging the discussion.

to Thaddeus.... I liked your sand metaphor... it is quite accurate and one I agree with.

to Jai Dee.... excellent to involve yourself and encouraging political involvement in your family. I, likewise, did the same as rather more important than taking a particular side on a political issue is having people aware that there IS a political issue and that they need to be involved in it. So, good for you for encouraging the discussion.

Just trying to do my bit to help people improve themselves mate... informed is so much better than ignorance hey?

Over the past 4 years of my marriage my wife has learnt (from me) to question things and not be so accepting.

She has said to me on a number of occasions that I have taught her to be this way, and she thinks its a good thing.

If I can help her family to be a little more aware of their world and make them realise that they can influence it as well, I will have achieved something positive.

to Jai Dee.... excellent to involve yourself and encouraging political involvement in your family. I, likewise, did the same as rather more important than taking a particular side on a political issue is having people aware that there IS a political issue and that they need to be involved in it. So, good for you for encouraging the discussion.

Over the past 4 years of my marriage my wife has learnt (from me) to question things and not be so accepting.

It can be a double-edged sword..... if the "questioning" and "not being so accepting" is something requested from yourself... :D

still, the postives far outweight any personal negatives... Keep It Up... the encouraging political involvement, that is...

It can be a double-edged sword..... if the "questioning" and "not being so accepting" is something requested from yourself... :D

Not wrong there...

I think soundman and I need to have a discussion

this thread has distracted me this afternoon....but I cant reply anymore as of today...need to get some urgent press release done (which was due at 5perhaps!

I blame soundman for my slacking

Reason for edit: thought I had something else to say...but I had the wrong person in mind dont ask......

Sorry for keeping you from your work.

Do I need protection?

Isn't it against the law for farangs to be invovled in politics in any way....even with a work permit?

Isn't it against the law for farangs to be invovled in politics in any way....even with a work permit?

I've been in countries where expressing an opinion out loud with the wrong person in earshot got your "permission to stay" amended to 48 hours hence.

soundman, must admit. Since I found out you were a fellow Melbournian my estimation of you has gone up! I used to think you were a Pom!

Seriously though, I think farangs already do have a huge impact on what happens here.

Consider the FBA. The fact that it got delayed is in no small part due to the lobbying efforts of the respective Chambers of Commerce. I just wish on other issues (eg tariff barriers, work permits, land ownership etc) they could get their sh!t together and lobby as group. Investment, and the threat of not having it, is a massive motivator for any government.

At another level, globalisation (ie 'farangs') have a huge impact. One of the clients we advise, an SET listed company, is extremely concerned about its environmental/green credentials totally because the European fund managers are worried about the issue.

So there are impacts everywhere. But like all things, these should be done quitely, diplomatically and behind the scenes. No matter where you go in the world, to have a bunch of foriegners lecture and chastise the locals into doing something is never a good look, and is political suicide.

But like all things, these should be done quitely, diplomatically and behind the scenes. No matter where you go in the world, to have a bunch of foriegners lecture and chastise the locals into doing something is never a good look, and is political suicide.

Very sound words.

not related to whether farangs do or do not constitute a political force in thailand...but still related to the theme of politics in thailand....

what do people make of Sonthi (CNS chief) running for elections this December..and that too at Lopburi where we know a large army contingent is based.

not to mention the Ministry of Interior promoting guys close to him in position of power within the ministry. these positions will in some way have an overseeing role related to the elections. (sorry Im not good at translating the titles from thai to english)

not related to whether farangs do or do not constitute a political force in thailand...but still related to the theme of politics in thailand....

what do people make of Sonthi (CNS chief) running for elections this December..and that too at Lopburi where we know a large army contingent is based.

not to mention the Ministry of Interior promoting guys close to him in position of power within the ministry. these positions will in some way have an overseeing role related to the elections. (sorry Im not good at translating the titles from thai to english)

Don't worry about the tinglish. We all get the drift.

Is Sonthi actually going to run?

Bad. Bad. Bad.

One step closer to absolute authority from un-elected persons operating behind the scenes. The democratically elected government will just be a puppet for a former leader & his associates.

Or maybe a lead up to getting the house in order before the inevitable....... *Due to content of this direction of discussion - I had better leave it at that.*

Is Sonthi actually going to run?

Bad. Bad. Bad.

yep! at Lopburi.

so any of you gonna tell family to vote for him?

but ofcourse it wont be funny once he gets into parliament! grrrrr

Is Sonthi actually going to run?

Bad. Bad. Bad.

yep! at Lopburi.

so any of you gonna tell family to vote for him?

but ofcourse it wont be funny once he gets into parliament! grrrrr

?????

Has he joined a party two years before his first birthday and produced notarised copies of his great-great-great-great grandmother's birth certificate and all that bovine excrement wot is practised locally?

Shows how little us ferengi know about <deleted> is going on here because this is the first thing I've seen beyond speculation and rhetoric.

I'm not discounting your words as you definitely seem to know your turf but I am surprised.

ofcourse he hast officially stood for candidacy (or whatever you call it), as applications only open in November. but he has certainly made his intention known.

to Jai Dee.... excellent to involve yourself and encouraging political involvement in your family. I, likewise, did the same as rather more important than taking a particular side on a political issue is having people aware that there IS a political issue and that they need to be involved in it. So, good for you for encouraging the discussion.

Just trying to do my bit to help people improve themselves mate... informed is so much better than ignorance hey?

Over the past 4 years of my marriage my wife has learnt (from me) to question things and not be so accepting.

She has said to me on a number of occasions that I have taught her to be this way, and she thinks its a good thing.

If I can help her family to be a little more aware of their world and make them realise that they can influence it as well, I will have achieved something positive.

Information though is extremely difficult to come by here, especially written in a language that the lesser educated can understand. I have had to go through quite some lengths to get my wife books on contemporary history and politics, and some, especially concerning the forbidden subject, is only available in English. Still though - at home this is not a forbidden subject, fortunately.

My wife was never a Thaksin supporter, but she does understand the agenda behind the constitution, and voted 'No'. We believe that a 'No' vote was the only way to get Thailand ahead, and fortunately 40% of fellow Thais though the same thing. Thaksin may have been not nice, but there is far worse out here.

to Jai Dee.... excellent to involve yourself and encouraging political involvement in your family. I, likewise, did the same as rather more important than taking a particular side on a political issue is having people aware that there IS a political issue and that they need to be involved in it. So, good for you for encouraging the discussion.

Just trying to do my bit to help people improve themselves mate... informed is so much better than ignorance hey?

Over the past 4 years of my marriage my wife has learnt (from me) to question things and not be so accepting.

She has said to me on a number of occasions that I have taught her to be this way, and she thinks its a good thing.

If I can help her family to be a little more aware of their world and make them realise that they can influence it as well, I will have achieved something positive.

Information though is extremely difficult to come by here, especially written in a language that the lesser educated can understand. I have had to go through quite some lengths to get my wife books on contemporary history and politics, and some, especially concerning the forbidden subject, is only available in English. Still though - at home this is not a forbidden subject, fortunately.

My wife was never a Thaksin supporter, but she does understand the agenda behind the constitution, and voted 'No'. We believe that a 'No' vote was the only way to get Thailand ahead, and fortunately 40% of fellow Thais though the same thing. Thaksin may have been not nice, but there is far worse out here.

I speak to many Thais, and I believe most know far more than you give them credit for. The consensus from what I gather is that ALL groups that come to power do not put the interests of the people foremost. They seem to think (from what I gather) that it is only a balancing of those interests, so that none becomes too strong that ensures that Thailand can muddle it's way forward. A good example would be here in Chiang Mai, the heart of Thaksin territory. They just elected a Democrat as mayor of the city. The TRT forces here tried everything to deligitimize her victory, but failed to do so. Balance, if not great leaps forward is thus achieved.