No More Dependent Extension Of Stay If The Host Foreigner Has A Retirement Extension Of Stay Permit

[retiredusn]

John, whatever you may think of Sunbelt, I don't you will find they are in the habit of playing hoaxes with such serious subjects.

They have told us where they got the information and have stated many times that the new regulations have not yet been issued, and could be changed. They have further advised that some of their clients have already been refused on the basis of the new regs, and, I think there have also been posters on this thread who have reported problems, as well as many others who have had their visas renewed with no problems.

So, as usual, total confusion but I really don't think Sunbelt are lying.

I think it more likely that Mr Kenyon and/or Pattaya immigration are not up to speed with what is going on, or - Pattaya immigration are simply not telling the truth, for whatever reason.

TIT, John - let's just wait and see what transpires , but whatever it is, it is not a hoax, and I am sure Sunbelt posted this information with the best of intentions.

Possibly Pattaya Immigration just haven't been told yet, simply because the new regs have not yet been issued?

The wife and I care not who is right or wrong,,,,we just want a answer so we can get on with our lives...............

[JohnC]

I was only posting the report as it appears in the offical minutes of the city ex pats club, I would never suggest a reputable company like Sunbelt who give excellent advice here were pulling a hoax. I also agree that personal experience is more relevant than supposed comments from officials.

As I said I was only posting the comments for info, as they say back home, dont shoot the messenger!

[Naam]

Interestingly, the one person who seems to be affected, the good Dr Naam, has the attitude of "it'll work out". A perfectly reasonable, level-headed, and pragmatic response. On the other hand, the hundreds of TVers who it does not affect, are running around whining and complaining.

there's obviously some misunderstanding Backflip as i am not affected should the new regulations be applied. if i'm not mistaken i made it quite clear that "for once it seems to be an advantage that my old lady is 57 years old".

you are however correct that my attitude is "it'll work out".

[Naam]

I really dislike the discussions that are meant to demean Thais, and promote farang superiority: "Thais are so stupid", "Thais have no common sense", "Thais are so superstitious", "farangs make a lot more money that the Thais, and that's why farangs are the only hope for the Thai economy". However, when there is any announcement of any change to the status quo, the superior farangs lose their senses of reason, perspective, and priority. It's hilarious. I think the Thai government should make specious announcements, just to watch the farangs run around like chickens with their heads cut off.

BINGO! sometimes i could -and still can- only shake my head in disbelief when i read some of the postings with the tenor "the sky is falling on farangs". and this from people who are obviously able to pack a couple of suitcases and move to another country in no time.

in my home country Germany we have a proverb "nothing is eaten as hot as it is cooked". and what else can we do besides adopting a wait and see attitude? and that of course goes especially for those who were/are on the verge of moving to Thailand.

[Martin]

'gdhm' in post # 710 said: "Anyway, any news or moves that suggest Thailand may or does want us long term stayers here has to be serious. I suppose in all honesty many of us long term stayers have for as long time chosen to ignore a very obvious signal for many years namely Thailand only grants 1 year Visas."

With respect, there is a fundamental error built in to that, because it indicates that there is one, and only one, 'Thailand' view.

My experience is that different people take different views (and some even chop and change their view quite often).

Even within a fairly homogenous group, I sense some very different views as to the extent to which different sorts of farangs, and different sorts of farang behaviour, are welcome or most unwelcome.

From my experience, it is the same in UK, and was the same in Brunei and Singapore. And, as a Brit in Oz, I found it the same there. Sometimes one is welcomed so unreservedly that one is almost embarrassed, and sometimes one is 'cold-shouldered' quite unconscionably.

Even (or especially) within a group of the lawmakers, or a group of the law implementers, one finds this.

And since it seems to be built in to the Thai culture to let its law makers write any law pretty ambiguously, and to give the law implementer plenty of room to exercise discretionary understanding, we are left feeling much less sure of where we stand now, and may stand in the future, than we might feel in the country in which we were brought up, and which had a somewhat different view of how laws should be written and implemented.

It's tough, but we've just got to take it.

Lucky are those who can find a cosy 'mae pen rai' (or, in Isaan, 'boh peng yang') niche.

Unlucky are those who get rubbed up the wrong way by it.

[midas]

I really dislike the discussions that are meant to demean Thais, and promote farang superiority: "Thais are so stupid", "Thais have no common sense", "Thais are so superstitious", "farangs make a lot more money that the Thais, and that's why farangs are the only hope for the Thai economy". However, when there is any announcement of any change to the status quo, the superior farangs lose their senses of reason, perspective, and priority. It's hilarious. I think the Thai government should make specious announcements, just to watch the farangs run around like chickens with their heads cut off.

BINGO! sometimes i could -and still can- only shake my head in disbelief when i read some of the postings with the tenor "the sky is falling on farangs". and this from people who are obviously able to pack a couple of suitcases and move to another country in no time.

in my home country Germany we have a proverb "nothing is eaten as hot as it is cooked". and what else can we do besides adopting a wait and see attitude? and that of course goes especially for those who were/are on the verge of moving to Thailand.

Although I am not affected either by these rules I strongly disagree with

both perspectives. I can't remember reading anything in this thread

which " demean Thais " as such. Since this government took over last year

you have to admit it has established a pattern of introducing rules and regulations

that shocked even the international investment community. Look what it did

with the 30% withholding tax and look how the financial markets reacted ?

Its only to be expected that people are now quite nervous now about what

this government might do next.

For people who are living respectively in the later stages of their lives in LOS

I can fully understand why they get nervous / upset at the prospect of

uncertainty even if it's only based on a rumour at this stage.

I don't think there are many retired couples who are " able to pack a couple

of suitcases and move to another country in no time "

[Martin]

"Its only to be expected that people are now quite nervous now about what this government might do next."

Oh, wouldn't it be nice if there was some country where that wasn't true!!!

As to the reaction of the financial markets to the 30% witholding tax, that seemed to me to be the equivalent of rapists whingeing that their victims were unreasonable because they wouldn't lie back and enjoy it.

[midas]

"Its only to be expected that people are now quite nervous now about what this government might do next."

Oh, wouldn't it be nice if there was some country where that wasn't true!!!

As to the reaction of the financial markets to the 30% witholding tax, that seemed to me to be the equivalent of rapists whingeing that their victims were unreasonable because they wouldn't lie back and enjoy it.

But as this thread is related to Thailand what on earth has that got to

do with Martin ?

[midas]

'gdhm' in post # 710 said: "Anyway, any news or moves that suggest Thailand may or does want us long term stayers here has to be serious. I suppose in all honesty many of us long term stayers have for as long time chosen to ignore a very obvious signal for many years namely Thailand only grants 1 year Visas."

With respect, there is a fundamental error built in to that, because it indicates that there is one, and only one, 'Thailand' view.

My experience is that different people take different views (and some even chop and change their view quite often).

Even within a fairly homogenous group, I sense some very different views as to the extent to which different sorts of farangs, and different sorts of farang behaviour, are welcome or most unwelcome.

From my experience, it is the same in UK, and was the same in Brunei and Singapore. And, as a Brit in Oz, I found it the same there. Sometimes one is welcomed so unreservedly that one is almost embarrassed, and sometimes one is 'cold-shouldered' quite unconscionably.

Even (or especially) within a group of the lawmakers, or a group of the law implementers, one finds this.

And since it seems to be built in to the Thai culture to let its law makers write any law pretty ambiguously, and to give the law implementer plenty of room to exercise discretionary understanding, we are left feeling much less sure of where we stand now, and may stand in the future, than we might feel in the country in which we were brought up, and which had a somewhat different view of how laws should be written and implemented.

It's tough, but we've just got to take it.

Lucky are those who can find a cosy 'mae pen rai' (or, in Isaan, 'boh peng yang') niche.

Unlucky are those who get rubbed up the wrong way by it.

I dont see the connection with your point and that which gdhm made ?

gdhm pointed out that other than for Thailand Elite Card holders-

who pay through the nose anyway- everyone else get just a year

visa which is hardly symbolic of wanting long term stayers

to feel 100 % comfortable- I know of no situation

where it leaves the " law implementer plenty of room to exercise

discretionary understanding " on granting more than a 1 year

visa if the official " feels like it " ??

[Naam]

I don't think there are many retired couples who are " able to pack a couple

of suitcases and move to another country in no time "

neither do i. but some of them acted as if they could move quite easily.

[Solosiam]

I have friends, (American husband and wife) that have retired here and have contributed to the Thai economy each month to the tune of around 80,000 to 100,000 baht each and every month for several years. Now the Thai government wants to drive these people out??

If thats the case then they will both easily qualify, it doesn't effect that couple at all.

[dutch]

I have friends, (American husband and wife) that have retired here and have contributed to the Thai economy each month to the tune of around 80,000 to 100,000 baht each and every month for several years. Now the Thai government wants to drive these people out??

If thats the case then they will both easily qualify, it doesn't effect that couple at all.

wrong.It should be 130.000 baht each and every month under the "new" law!

[gdhm]

John, whatever you may think of Sunbelt, I don't you will find they are in the habit of playing hoaxes with such serious subjects.

They have told us where they got the information and have stated many times that the new regulations have not yet been issued, and could be changed. They have further advised that some of their clients have already been refused on the basis of the new regs, and, I think there have also been posters on this thread who have reported problems, as well as many others who have had their visas renewed with no problems.

So, as usual, total confusion but I really don't think Sunbelt are lying.

I think it more likely that Mr Kenyon and/or Pattaya immigration are not up to speed with what is going on, or - Pattaya immigration are simply not telling the truth, for whatever reason.

TIT, John - let's just wait and see what transpires , but whatever it is, it is not a hoax, and I am sure Sunbelt posted this information with the best of intentions.

I support what Mobi says. I am quite sure Sunbelt are completely

up to speed with the situation whereas some immigration officers may not be

Immigration don't seem to brief or update their

officers very well in particular in the provinces regarding changes

or new policies. I have held an APEC card

for over 4 years now ( the scheme has been going even longer ) and while

Bangkok immigration officials now seem to know how to process

the holders of the card on arrival and exit, some officers in other provinces act as if

they have never seen one before

I agree. Sunbelt have always tried to help and they have no reason to misinform or anything to gain by doing so. In fact if they did misinform then they would possibly piss off their sources, Immigration and the Police. Sunbelt pass on what they are told if the consider it to be true and well founded and we should be grateful they tell us so quickly and with provisos where they feel appropriate.

Maybe people would sooner wait, but then nobody is prepared. if people start suggesting Sunbelt should hold back until formal announcement they would I am sure be happy to oblige but then we all would be disadvantaged.

Sunbelt have even been honest is suggesting that maybe on occasions they have been told things quickly to gauge reaction and then sometimes things have changed a little or not happened. IF that is happening at times then it is even MORE important for us to be warned as early as possible so the reactions can be assessed.

Sunbelt do not sit on the fence or play it safe and we should be grateful. If the info they are given then changed 100% it is unfair to blame them they are merely reporting information as it reaches them which they deem is from a reliable usually official source and Sunbelt cannot be held responsible for subsequent changes in Thai decisions.

In this latest case Sunbelt have said they know of some having problems already. Just because some thankfully are not, does not mean the new rule(s) does not exist. We all know each office interprets things often differently AND that some rule changes take a long time to seep through to all the Imm. Offices.

I would much sooner be aware of maybe something about to hit than walk into an immigration Office totally unprepared for a possible major bombshell that may destroy all my and my families plans.

Kind regards, Dave

[gdhm]

'...Lucky are those who can find a cosy 'mae pen rai' (or, in Isaan, 'boh peng yang') niche.

Unlucky are those who get rubbed up the wrong way by it.

Hi Martin, I genuinely thank you for your comments, observations and for pointing out an accidental generalisation on my part, that I was not intending.

I agree 100% with you. It was my mistake in not being more precise. I should have said those who over recent times have decided Immigration and Visa policy, rules and regulations for Thailand resulting in I year Visas and a difficult (in my opinion) Residency qualification.

I live in Isaan , Khon Kaen City and in 1.5 years I have nearly always found the Thai people to be extremely friendly and pleasant. I find, as with many races, if one is friendly and not superior (why should we feel superior anyway -if the reason for some is money then I do not consider money makes a person better or superior to another) then people usually respond in a similar manner.

In my time here I often get patted on my stomach and told "baby" (I'm 39 kilos) but I can clearly see there is no malice in the comments. Only once has my wife heard a nasty comment spoken for her to overhear (words to effect "she is quite pretty why would she be with a fat ugly older Farang unless he is very rich. These Farangs take all our women. I hate them")

wish I was rich. But joking apart, one unnecessary comment in 1.5 years is nothing and everybody is entitled to their opinion. I am here because I find the Thai people nice and their country a pleasure to live in. My ONLY worry is the Immigration/Visa ever changing rules and lack of consistency. Nothing else causes me concern or worry.

To be honest most who live here in Thailand and are reacting negatively to the rules changes in recent times not because they are anti Thai they are just worried. They wish to remain here in their current home (many for the rest of their lives) because they DO like Thailand, its people and its customs and way of life.

If we did not, then we would not be here OR we would not care too much if we had to leave. One must remember everybody is human and whilst it is desirable to react logically and calmly it often is common for worry and stress to cause and "knee jerk" reactions when one feels they, or their families or way of life are threatened, such as "If Thailand doesn't want me. No problem I will go where I am wanted and take my money with me".

Kindest regards,

Dave

Edited September 7, 2007 by Maestro
Quoted text reduced. No need to quote the entire, lengthy post.

[lopburi3]

I do not believe you are 39 kilos. I get the baby taps but I am closer to 97 kilos.

[gdhm]

I do not believe you are 39 kilos. I get the baby taps but I am closer to 97 kilos.

OOOPPPPSS! Sorry typo try 139 Kilos

Personally, I often hold my hand up with 4 fingers and tell them I am expecting quads

Dave

Edited September 7, 2007 by gdhm

[TAWP]

A sample reading of posts in this thread tells me that if I were Thai I wouldn't want most of these farang in my country either. I think they feel the same way about the country being flooded with farang as most of us farang do - enough is enough!

Could you please stop spamming this thread with your inane posts?

[CRUNCHER]

A sample reading of posts in this thread tells me that if I were Thai I wouldn't want most of these farang in my country either. I think they feel the same way about the country being flooded with farang as most of us farang do - enough is enough!

Could you please stop spamming this thread with your inane posts?

Nothing inane about it. This thread, along with a lot of other threads, is polluted with outrageously racist comments made by xenophobic farang. These comments by racist farang do nothing enhance the reputation of farang amongst ordinary Thais, not to mention the Immigration Department who apparently monitor this forum.

To deal with the subject of this thread - there is obviously something wrong with this (ou understanding of what is happening) or something more behind it that we do not know about. I am not referring to what has been done, but the way it has been done. I.e. Introduced suddenly, without notice and, it would seem, that offices outside of Bangkok have not been informed of the changes despite the apparent urgency. The lack of grandfathering is also odd. Normally Thai authorities are quite sympathetic in this respect. The answer is probably in the reason behind it; whatever that might be.

The best advice has already be mentioned more than one – don’t panic, but wait and see what actually comes out.

[capaotung]

So, there is a reason for multiplying the average monthly wage for the whole of the population including newborns and 99 yos on their deathbeds yet you don't seem to be able to tell us what it is..!

As I am nothing if not a patient and penitent man, I will explain it yet a different way again:

It's important to understand that the monthly income per average Thai and the monthly income per average Thai wage-earner are two different numbers; the terms are not interchangeable.

The average monthly income per household was 12,167 THB. Divide that by the average household size of 3.6 (yes, newborns and 99 yos on their deathbed included) and we find that the average Thai (yes, newborns and 99 yos on their deathbed included) has a monthly income of 3,380 THB. Multiply that by Thailand's population (60,606,947) and you get 204,851,480,860 THB per month. Divide that by the work force (which you reported as 32,000,000) and increase it by the inflation rates of 2.10%, 1.60%, 0.60%, 1.80%, 2.80%, 4.50%, and 5.10%. The result is a monthly income per average Thai wage-earner of 7,678 THB. Increased productivity (such as it is) could account for the difference between that and your revered BOT number. I use higher average inflation rates for my forecasts, which is why I would expect to see higher monthly income.

If you say the average Thai earns 7k THB, one should multiply that by the population (yes, newborns and 99 yos on their deathbed included). If you say the average Thai worker earns 7K, one should multiply that by the workforce.

I hope this clears it up for you.

You are "clearing it up for me"?!?

My math has always been (actually my first calculation has been done wrongly assuming 20,000,000 workers instead of 32,000,000 but the concept is the same: I have always computed workers):

year 2000: 6,083 average monthly wage x the 32,000,000 Thais in the workforce x 12 months = 2,335,872,000,000 THB

year 2007: 7,700 average monthly wage x the 36,000,000 Thais in the workforce x 12 months = 3,326,400,000,000 THB

So I know what average wage means.

Have you already forgotten that it was you to come up with 5,821,200,000,000 THB reached by multiplying the Thais' average wage of 7,700 THB/month (source: the BOT) x 63 million Thais?!?

Edited September 7, 2007 by capaotung

[capaotung]

This thread, along with a lot of other threads, is polluted with outrageously racist comments made by xenophobic farang. These comments by racist farang do nothing enhance the reputation of farang amongst ordinary Thais,

Whose countries have racist, xenophobic immigration laws? Whose countries are, without any warning, changing (worsening) overnight their immigration laws applying them immediately even before publishing them in their official gazettes? Whose countries are worsening their immigration laws without grandfathering provisos?

Farangs' or Thais' ?

[gdhm]

A sample reading of posts in this thread tells me that if I were Thai I wouldn't want most of these farang in my country either. I think they feel the same way about the country being flooded with farang as most of us farang do - enough is enough!

Could you please stop spamming this thread with your inane posts?

Extract:

Nothing inane about it. This thread, along with a lot of other threads, is polluted with outrageously racist comments made by xenophobic farang. These comments by racist farang do nothing enhance the reputation of farang amongst ordinary Thais, not to mention the Immigration Department who apparently monitor this forum.....

Hi Cruncher,

I do not want to get involved in taking sides in the racist/xenophobic discussion as I feel it does not serve any useful input for either Thai/Farang or other foreigners AND because there can be no excuse for racism.

I would like to mention one thing. I often feel what brings out such disturbing tendencies in people to the surface is when they feel "got at unfairly" by a particular group. This I hasten to add does NOT justify racist or xenophobic remarks.

My observation:

You have mentioned the Immigration Dept. monitoring this forum and that it may be disturbed by what it reads from some Farangs. I agree, but I feel it fair to suggest that the Imm. Dept's. inconsistencies in rules interpretations, not only between its local offices but also between officers within those offices and the "every few months" changes, announcements, changes to the original announcements, lack of an up to date website does not help stopping people feeling sorry for themselves nor to stop the more aggressive voicing negative Thai views (some of which unfortunately are racist reactions).

Like it or not the Thai immigration Department DOES represent THAILAND (be it in ONLY one specific area). If foreigners (not just Farangs) keep finding themselves worrying and being victim of the inconsistencies and interpretations of Visa rules (please note I did NOT says victim to the rules that the Imm.. Dept feel fit to introduce) then these people are likely to have a distorted view on how they see things in general.

A example within Thailand amongst Thais themselves is the TRT and Thaksin issue. The North and North East with their area problems, in general consider Thaksin and TRT as their friends and heroes. The South, Bangkok and many other areas with their problems consider the opposite. Looks at the wars of nasty words and attitudes going on between the two opposing view points. Each side feeling "got at" by the other. Regretfully, it is human nature to be tempted into passing sweeping judgements based on things that affect individuals most in their own daily lives and no the bigger picture.

For many on the Forum I get the impression, worry over the Visa inconsistencies and vagaries is the primary concern for most living in Thailand.

The Immigration Dept (not the Visa seekers) I feel have to be considered mainly responsible, when their own local offices seem unsure how to interpret their Head Office' s rules and in some cases change from one week to the next and act differently to each other, despite there being only ONE set of Rules and Regulations from the top.

If offices do not know how to interpret the Head Office Rules and Regulations then I feel it not unreasonable that they refer to Head Office for clarification. When Head Office become aware of a general confusion on a particular point it would be best to provide further clarification for ALL their local Offices staff. This is not a view to help Farangs (but of course it would) but to help the overworked local office staff and save them wasting a lot of their time, as well as Visa seekers.

With deep regret latent (or open) racist views quickly come to the fore when provoked. Even TIT is a racist comment (even in jest)

I hate racism in any form and I have to agree with you Cruncher that there is little or no disguising some of the messages that reveal a "them and us" based on racism which is highly regrettable and undesirable. If we chose to live in Thailand then the view should be us as much as we reasonably can bearing in mind we are not Thais.

Having said that I have seen many threads hijacked by Farangs to attack the USA which has led to racist comments defending and supporting. Clearly, racism is alive and well between Farang and Farang as well - such a shame.

Just a personal view. I would love to see the word Farang dropped from the Forum. It is not racist but it IS too narrow in my opinion. The subject matters discussed on TV are NOT Farang specific they are FOREIGNER (to Thailand) specific. In most occasions Farangs are a sub group of the real Foreigner group being discussed and the continued use of Farang does give the impression that Farangs on TV and other forums speak only for Farangs and only care about Farangs. This is not an accurate or healthy impression to give out to Thais or other non Farang foreigners who use and read the Forums.

Of course, most use Farang as a generalisation and don't even think about this point. I too fall into this trap as well, although I feel I do use the word foreigner more often than most.

In all honesty the same is with the Thai people. Farang MUST be one of the most used words daily (well in Khon Kaen City anyway) . I hear Farang mentioned all the time (almost obsessively) no idea whether in a positive, negative or plain descriptive context (I can't speak Thai but I sure hear the word over and over again every day).

Kind Regards, Dave

Edited September 7, 2007 by gdhm

[CRUNCHER]

Kind Regards, Dave

Thanks for your comments Dave. I agree with pretty much all you say in this and in earlier posts.

My comments relating to racist farang was in response to earlier posts. It makes my blood boil to see Thai people ladled xenophobic because of what the Immigration Dept. does or does not do. I hoped (perhaps too optimistically) that when some posters lable Thais xenophobic they are themselves guilty of the same crime. As to the use of “farang” and “TIT”, I agree, but I think it is, to some extent, not a question of not what you say, more a question of the way you say it.

I agree with you that Immigration has a long way to go before it gets things right. The subject of this thread is yet one more example. Given the widespread concern that it has raised, to say that a public statement (press release?) giving the definitive position would be helpful is an understatement.

The problem is that every time Immigration finds a hole in it’s system it puts a patch on it. The subject of this thread is one more example. By now the system has so many patches it is unstable, unfair and almost unworkable. What is needed is a complete revamp of the entire visa system. Perhaps I am asking too much. TIT (Oops!)

I understand people are worried by this. My wife is not far off 50 and so perhaps I am not as badly off as some. We will have to see what happens when the dust settles. Whatever happens the Thais are some of the nicest people on earth.

Edited September 7, 2007 by Maestro
Quoted text reduced. No need to quote the whole, lenghty post.

[CRUNCHER]

Whose countries have racist, xenophobic immigration laws?

As to which countries have racist immigration laws, the answer is just about every country. Almost by definition just about all immigration laws are racist to one extent or another. That is no excuse to deride the people of those countries as being xenophobic (which is not the same as racist).

Every country has the right to have immigration laws it deems fit and necessary for the running of the country; whether people wishing to go to that country like it or not. Thailand is no exception. A great many countries treat people from one country differently from people of another country. This is racist, but often there are reasons (good or not as the case may be). If you don’t like it you don’t go there.

Thai Immigration has a long way to go before it gets things even close to right. As to the way this issue has been implemented (speed, lack of grandfathering etc) as I said in my post this is unusual even for Thai Immigration. I think we need to see exactly what happens when the dust settles before calling all Thais xenophobic. Although the situation is not good, it might well not be quite as bad in the end as it seems now.

Perhaps there is some good reason for this change and the way it has been dealt with. I must confess it is difficult to think of one at the moment. The point being we need to see some clarification before we panic or resort to name calling.

Edited September 7, 2007 by Maestro
Quoted text reduced. No need to quote the entire, nested posts. Bad nettiquette.

[capaotung]

As to which countries have racist immigration laws, the answer is just about every country.

Let's make it simpler for you to answer, then: whose countries have the most xenophobic immigration laws? Westerners' or Thais'?

P.S. still waiting for the answers to:

1. Whose countries are, without any warning, changing (worsening) overnight their immigration laws applying them immediately even before publishing them in their official gazettes? Westerners' or Thais'?

2. Whose countries are worsening their immigration laws without grandfathering provisos? Westerners' or Thais'?

Edited September 7, 2007 by Maestro
Quoted text reduced. No need to quote the whole, lenghty post.

[CRUNCHER]

Let's make it simpler for you to answer, then: whose countries have the most xenophobic immigration laws? Westerners' or Thais'?

We are in danger of getting a little off topic, but I do not which to be more evasive than necessary.

Many western counties are just as "xenophobic" as Thailand. Ask an Indian who needs a visa to even transit UK as I need one to transit India. My best answer at this point - about the same.

Question 1 is unanswerable because not every country even gazettes what are often regarded as procedural matters. Anyway it is less than clear to what extent this is being enforced in Thailand, apart from the odd case in Bangkok, before the amendment is published. So lets not jump to use the X word.

Question 2. Wait for the dust to settle. Grandfathering may yet happen. Wait for the new regulations to be published before using the X word.

Whatever the outcome this is no excuse to call all Thais xenophobic or racist which some posters have done.

Edited September 7, 2007 by Maestro
Quoted text reduced. No need to quote the entire, nested posts. Bad nettiquette.

[Jingthing]

Of course it is silly to call ALL Thais xenophobic.

However, you have to have your head in the sand not to see the manifestations of hyper-nationalism here. Face it a party called Thai love Thai almost sounds like a satirical joke, but they were elected by landslide and could have continued to be if they weren't thrown out by ... the military. I have only known the country since 1998 so I don't know what it was like before that, but it is quite noticeable now. Compare to a country like Canada and you will see a real difference.

I also don't think the x word is a dirty word or anything. Say it loud and proud when you see it: XENOPHOBIA.

Edited September 7, 2007 by Jingthing

[capaotung]

Let's make it simpler for you to answer, then: whose countries have the most xenophobic immigration laws? Westerners' or Thais'?

My best answer at this point - about the same.

So how come there are MILLIONS of foreigners legally living and working in Western countries the same size as Thailand and getting PR and citizenship while the numbers in Thailand are, at best, laughable (just like the probability of ever getting PR and citizenship)?

If those countries had the same xenophobic immigration laws as Thailand, as you claim, that would be legally IMPOSSIBLE.

You better get a clue about Western and Thai immigration laws before replying on matters concerning immigration laws.

Whatever the outcome this is no excuse to call all Thais xenophobic or racist which some posters have done.

In a democracy the laws of a country are supposed to mirror the views of the majority of its citizens so while ALL is certainly the wrong word, MOST is totally appropriate.

(I know Thailand isn't a democracy since about a year but it has been sold as one for the last 10 years...)

[Naam]

I have friends, (American husband and wife) that have retired here and have contributed to the Thai economy each month to the tune of around 80,000 to 100,000 baht each and every month for several years. Now the Thai government wants to drive these people out??

If thats the case then they will both easily qualify, it doesn't effect that couple at all.

wrong.It should be 130.000 baht each and every month under the "new" law!

if the couple has spent 80-100k every month it shouldn't be a problem to show 800k for each of them in the bank.

[retiredusn]

I have friends, (American husband and wife) that have retired here and have contributed to the Thai economy each month to the tune of around 80,000 to 100,000 baht each and every month for several years. Now the Thai government wants to drive these people out??

If thats the case then they will both easily qualify, it doesn't effect that couple at all.

wrong.It should be 130.000 baht each and every month under the "new" law!

if the couple has spent 80-100k every month it shouldn't be a problem to show 800k for each of them in the bank.

100k hum,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,800k - 100k= diff of 700k hum where do you get the extra 7?

[PeaceBlondie]

A farang couple that spends 90K per month may not have a spare 800K sitting in a Thai bank. They may not have pensions of 65K each. But if they do have both the pensions, and the spare assets to put in a local bank, other countries' banks may suddenly look better.

Racism and xenophobia are related, and both apply to many immigration policies of most countries. Thailand's current level of both, combined with the inability of the Immigration Police to effectively administer its task, makes me suspect that next month's annual extension of my retirement visa may be my last.