8 hours ago, Gary The Git said:

@fredwiggy Mate, what is it with your ongoing obsession with prostitution? It almost needs its own Wikipedia page by now, FFS. Is it secretly a big part of your life? I reckon you should go and have a bit of a tug and a lie-down, you’ll feel much better afterwards.

Like I mentioned earlier, there is no obsession but a respect for women, and this is part of the disrespect they receive. How many here are obsessed with them, use them, pay for them, or worse? That's who you might want to be concerned about. If you read that story, you might understand what it says, which has nothing to do with my life. I look at these women as victims of men, and would like to see them in a better place. Anyone who supports this trade is where the obsession lies. Not knowing what happens to these women or what goes on in their psyche is a reason to read it.

8 hours ago, josephbloggs said:

Next time give a one paragraph except or a summary and then a link to the article.

That horrendous wall of text would put anyone off. Unreadable. I don't even know what it is about or what position it - or you - is taking, but nobody can possibly read that colossall pile of unbroken words.

Remember one thing. You don't have to read anything anyone posts here. Looking at the title is all a man needs to understand what it means. Some men think they can dominate over women so won't bother reading it, and that answers the question about their thinking. I didn't write it and this type of story, along with the many studies done on the subject, has been out there all along.

I read it in under 10 minutes, as I don't like to see women used or abused in any way. If a person cannot comprehend it, that's fine. Just don't comment on things that you can't understand, which goes for any topic on this forum. Prostitution comes up daily in this forum. All I did was point out what negatives come from it. Again, I just provided a story not of my writing. I just agree with it. as any decent man would.

I'm trying to understand your motivation – you write 2 lines and then quote a Dworkin speech from 1992 ...

What are you trying to achieve – an apology?

8 hours ago, Tourist2 said:

Or the ones writing long winded, virtue signalling essays about hoes.

I guess you can show it to your wife as evidence that u don't bang hookers though.
Bit sneaky but up to u 👍

Assuming like some do here never works. Responses to this topic aren't about me but other's thinking about the trade, and how it affects women. I have a girlfriend that trusts me, as I don't cheat and she knows this after over 5 years with her. I didn't post this for any approval but to point it out so others might think a bit. It's never too late to change negative thinking about women, unless it's so ingrained from childhood it won't leave. Again, this has nothing to do with me.

3 minutes ago, kwilco said:

I'm trying to understand your motivation – you write 2 lines and then quote a Dworkin speech from 1992 ...

What are you trying to achieve – an apology?

The subject comes up here almost daily on sex workers and those who partake in it. Like all other things people post here, it's to point out what goes on in a trade many participate in, although many don't see the aftereffects on the women and just the pleasure they receive. Looking the other way doesn't have things disappear. if you respect women, you should be on their side against men who use them. Being in denial doesn't help, and is a personal thing with nothing to do with anyone else, including me. Apology for what?

9 hours ago, save the frogs said:

Yeah, sorry I didn't read the whole thing, or barely any of it. I have ADD.

What's your point? Or one point you're trying to make? Violence against prostitutes?

I am willing to wager that there is far more spousal abuse taking place than abuse of prostitutes. In fact, abuse and violence against women in prostitution is probably extremely rare.

You are quoting a rape shelter website? I just noticed the link. The women going to those shelters are battered wives and women being beaten by their boyfriends.

Like others here on other subjects, I just provided a story about their lifestyle, which has nothing to do with me. Look at all the nonsense posted about trump, which doesn't affect most people here. I respect women, so don't like to see them victimized. If you don't read something, how can you comment on it's words? Yes, domestic violence happens in all types of relationships, but this isn't just about violence but how the women live their lives. Violence against prostitutes is nowhere near rare. Human trafficking , which is huge here and all over, is violence. It's not just about the shelter but prostitutes in general worldwide.

10 hours ago, khunJam said:

Dworkin is an extremest feminist that rejects academic detachment and framing of prostitution as work or empowerment. Women selling prostitution tend to hold more power over men than men do over women, they post the for sale sign, set the rules and price. The men come 1 by 1 and throw their money at them and the weak ones fall in love with the product while keeping her guard up and maintaining customer loyalty. A lot of professional women put themselves through college by using and taking advantage of weak men. A lot of weak men lost their families and sanity and going bankrupt because of the power of women’s crotch’s. Women are just as if not more manipulative vile and deceitful than men. Historically women in power have directed and initiated conflicts at comparable rates than men and some data indicates that it’s even higher.

So the belief that women overall are victims even furthers their design of their deceit. You’ve been had @fredwiggy and have fallen for the oldest trick in the book, taking pity on the poor damsel trick that has left many in ruin.

This person just pointed out what's been going on in the trade all along. There are hundreds of stories and studies done. Being on the side of women being victimized isn't about feminism.

Wanting women to have a safer, better life isn't either. If you respect women, you don't hurt them.

I haven't fallen for anything. I'm just more aware than some about this subject, as it is about male dominance.

All a man has to do is ask themselves how they see women. Some see them as slaves and don't care what happens to them after they get what they want from them. A decent man doesn't but looks at them as partners and equals. Easy question to ask yourself.

Men are victims also. Just not in the same ways besides the male sex workers that are forced into the trade. Trust me, I know full well how evil some women can be.

11 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

The subject comes up here almost daily on sex workers and those who partake in it. Like all other things people post here, it's to point out what goes on in a trade many participate in, although many don't see the aftereffects on the women and just the pleasure they receive. Looking the other way doesn't have things disappear. if you respect women, you should be on their side against men who use them. Being in denial doesn't help, and is a personal thing with nothing to do with anyone else, including me. Apology for what?

I don't see anything new in what you are saying – you are just quoting someone else from 1992. Are you trying to say something about Thailand in the present? Have you had this idea for decades? Are you trying to say that people on this thread don't agree with Dworkin, or have you just had an epiphany?

6 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

Violence against prostitutes is nowhere near rare. Human trafficking , which is huge here and all over, is violence. It's not just about the shelter but prostitutes in general worldwide.

Human trafficking is against the law. And hopefully law enforcement is stamping it out.

Apart from that, sad to say, but most prostitutes are being treated better than half the women in marriages. All those women ending up in shelters -- it's their boyfriends or husbands beating them.

In fact, in Thailand many women end up in the trade because of deadbeat husbands or boyfriends -- not necessarily abusive, but neither were they model husbands.

Besides, people simply do not consider that many govts around the world cannot provide decent living conditions for women in many parts of the world, so women turn to these trades. And you want to replace it with what? Nothing?

Edited Friday at 11:16 PM3 days by save the frogs

2 minutes ago, kwilco said:

I don't see anything new in what you are saying – you are just quoting someone else from 1992. Are you trying to say something about Thailand in the present? Have you had this idea for decades? Are you trying to say that people on this thread don't agree with Dworkin, or have you just had an epiphany?

Nothing new, besides the fact it continues and many suffer from it. What is written is what's going on now even more. Easy to research the negatives about the trade on women and their lives. I'm not judging anyone, as it's on them to be either good or bad to women in their lives. Just another topic to read and reflect on, like all others here.

17 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

Like I mentioned earlier, there is no obsession but a respect for women, and this is part of the disrespect they receive. How many here are obsessed with them, use them, pay for them, or worse? That's who you might want to be concerned about. If you read that story, you might understand what it says, which has nothing to do with my life. I look at these women as victims of men, and would like to see them in a better place. Anyone who supports this trade is where the obsession lies. Not knowing what happens to these women or what goes on in their psyche is a reason to read it.

Mate, really? You cannot seriously be getting on your high horse about this. Have a butcher’s at all the other comments and come to terms. Nobody gives a toss. You’re flying this flag on your own.

There are millions of people knocking about this world doing jobs that make sex work look like a lovely little number, yet you’ve somehow made sex workers your personal obsession.

What about the blokes in India chopping up enormous cargo ships for scrap? You know, surrounded by falling steel, fire and explosions. Lovely little day at the office, that.

Or the lads in Indonesia hauling sulphur out of a volcano while breathing in poisonous fumes? Most don't live past 40. Piece of piss that is, right?

Or the gold miners in Africa crawling around dangerous mines where the whole bloody thing can come down on top of them, and often it does.

Or maybe the lads dangling 200 feet up inside Malaysian caves on bits of bamboo and rope collecting birds’ nests, where apparently falling to your death is just one of the occupational perks.

Seriously, mate. Perspective.

You’re clutching your pearls over one particular profession while people all over the world are doing genuinely lethal jobs just to earn a day’s wage.

That’s life. It ain’t a bloody weekend picnic in Hyde Park. Get on board.

Edited Friday at 11:17 PM3 days by Gary The Git

5 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

Human trafficking is against the law. And hopefully law enforcement is stamping it out.

Apart from that, sad to say, but most prostitutes are being treated better than half the women in marriages. All those women ending up in shelters -- it's their boyfriends or husbands beating them.

Besides, people simply do not consider that many govts around the world cannot provide decent living conditions for women in many parts of the world, so women turn to these trades. And you want to replace it with what? Nothing?

I know what women, and men, have to deal with in this world daily. This is just pointing out a part of it. Yes, the government's job is to provide for, and protect it's citizens, and this they fail at in may ways. If there was a system here to provide for single women, and parents, it would make life much easier for them. There are reasons women, and men, go into this trade, and poverty is just one of them, and not a huge percentage.

1 minute ago, fredwiggy said:

Easy to research the negatives about the trade on women and their lives.

The West, especially certain factions, has gone down the path of demonizing prostitution for various reasons.

- The Church got involved

- It conflicts with family, marriage

-there are good job opportunities and career paths for women in the west, so prostitution really isn't a necessity

But they are blowing the negatives out of proportion.

In places like Thailand, it makes more sense that this industry exists.

2 minutes ago, Gary The Git said:

Mate, really? You cannot seriously be getting on your high horse about this. Have a butcher’s at all the other comments and come to terms. Nobody gives a toss. You’re flying this flag on your own.

There are millions of people knocking about this world doing jobs that make sex work look like a lovely little number, yet you’ve somehow made sex workers your personal obsession.

What about the blokes in India chopping up enormous cargo ships for scrap? You know, surrounded by falling steel, fire and explosions. Lovely little day at the office, that.

Or the lads in Indonesia hauling sulphur out of a volcano while breathing in poisonous fumes? Most don't live past 40. Piece of piss that is, right?

Or the gold miners in Africa crawling around dangerous mines where the whole bloody thing can come down on top of them, and often it does.

Or maybe the lads dangling 200 feet up inside Malaysian caves on bits of bamboo and rope collecting birds’ nests, where apparently falling to your death is just one of the occupational perks.

Seriously, mate. Perspective.

You’re clutching your pearls over one particular profession while people all over the world are doing genuinely lethal jobs just to earn a day’s wage.

That’s life. It ain’t a bloody weekend picnic in Hyde Park. Get on board.

If you read what I said, I said this isn't about me. I do agree with what's written, as its factual. Those that use the trade of course aren't going to agree with it, and many won't bother reading it at all for that reason alone. Very simple. You either respect all women or you don't.

Many who use this trade do not see the lives of the women they have sex with. They go in, have sex, then leave, and aren't beating them up or killing them. They don't care what the woman's going through, if she has to deal with a pimp, boyfriend who's using her and the money she makes, or a trafficker, addictions because she doesn't want to think of what she's doing for money, and the fact she already has lost face back home for doing it. Some people promote this trade. Most don't.

I know well what many in this crappy world have to deal with doing their jobs. Life isn't easy for most of us. My thinking is wanting to see all women who deserve to be treated well to get it. This isn't about the bitches who use men and take them for whatever, but about the ones who are either forced into this trade or think they have to enter it to send money home to parents who's only care is that cash and not the well being of their daughters.

Prostitution is still one of the most dangerous occupations worldwide. Men who take those jobs know what they're getting into. The women who enter this trade might know of some of the risks, but until they are victims most won't. Prostitutes are targets for serial killers and severe misogynists for a reason. Vulnerability, just as this latest girl was in Pattaya.

Women can stay home in Thailand and earn less money but be safer, cleaner and home with their children making less money but not having to pay to stay in a tourist area away from their families and children. Like another mentioned, the government can do more for it's citizens, but do they care?

Edited Friday at 11:37 PM3 days by fredwiggy

9 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

The West, especially certain factions, has gone down the path of demonizing prostitution for various reasons.

- The Church got involved

- It conflicts with family, marriage

-there are good job opportunities and career paths for women in the west, so prostitution really isn't a necessity

But they are blowing the negatives out of proportion.

In places like Thailand, it makes more sense that this industry exists.

Poverty has this happening in places like Thailand, but it's only a smaller percentage of those that enter it. I think many men don't realize what many go through, not only from trafficking, drug addiction or beatings from clients, but what it does to their thinking. The aftereffects on them and their children's lives. Rinse and repeat.

7 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

If you read what I said, I said this isn't about me. I do agree with what's written, as its factual. Those that use the trade of course aren't going to agree with it, and many won't bother reading it at all for that reason alone. Very simple. You either respect all women or you don't.

Many who use this trade do not see the lives of the women they have sex with. They go in, have sex, then leave, and aren't beating them up or killing them. They don't care what the woman's going through, if she has to deal with a pimp, boyfriend who's using her and the money she makes, or a trafficker, addictions because she doesn't want to think of what she's doing for money, and the fact she already has lost face back home for doing it. Some people promote this trade. Most don't.

I know well what many in this crappy world have to deal with doing their jobs. Life isn't easy for most of us. My thinking is wanting to see all women who deserve to be treated well to get it. This isn't about the bitches who use men and take them for whatever, but about the ones who are either forced into this trade or think they have to enter it to send money home to parents who's only care is that cash and not the well being of their daughters.

Women can stay home in Thailand and earn less money but be safer, cleaner and home with their children making less money but not having to pay to stay in a tourist area away from their families and children. Like another mentioned, the government can do more for it's citizens, but do they care?

Mate, the amount of waffle coming out of you is almost as weird as that Gamma geezer.

Just now, Gary The Git said:

Mate, the amount of waffle coming out of you is almost as weird as that Gamma geezer.

If someone doesn't understand what others write, it's often labeled as waffling. I didn't write this, but I have made my points rather clearly. I did say this wasn't about me. I just support women. Do you?

Edited Friday at 11:43 PM3 days by fredwiggy

10 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

drug addiction or beatings from clients, but what it does to their thinking

Beatings from clients is blown way out of proportion by the powers that be that want to shut the industry down.

And hypocritical as they can't seem to sort out men in marriages and relationships beating their women (which is much higher than clients beating prostitutes), yet continue to push this as the only lifestyle that everyone should pursue.

9 hours ago, Tourist2 said:

Or the ones writing long winded, virtue signalling essays about hoes.

Referring to working women as "hoes" is disrespectful and harmful. We should strive to uplift and support all individuals in the workforce instead.

3 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

Beatings from clients is blown way out of proportion by the powers that be that want to shut the industry down.

And hypocritical as they can't seem to sort out men in marriages and relationships beating their women (which is much higher than clients beating prostitutes), yet continue to push this as the only lifestyle that everyone should pursue.

The easy question is to ask yourself. Is this a good position for women, and would you like to see your daughters go into this because they aren't making enough money to get by? I know if you don't have any children or a good partner, it's not easy to empathize with these women, putting yourself in their shoes, but it's not impossible. Thinking about this more, domestic violence is actually higher in prostitution than regular relationships.

I found this..........Globally, sex workers experience significantly higher rates of violence—including intimate partner violence (IPV)—than the general population. According to the World Health Organization (WHO), while roughly 30% of women in the general population experience physical or sexual violence in their lifetime, lifetime exposure to violence among sex workers ranges from 41% to 65%........Client-Initiated Violence: Studies indicate that between 50% and 75% of female sex workers experience violence, robbery, or sexual assault from commercial clients.

Comparative Risk: Despite these high numbers, individuals participating in the sex trade face an exponentially elevated threat environment. Data compiled by Griffith University demonstrates that sex workers are up to 18 times more likely to be murdered than women of similar demographics in the general population.

Edited Friday at 11:54 PM3 days by fredwiggy

1 hour ago, fredwiggy said:

Money is not the point of this thinking, but the aftereffects of it. Yes, they can make more money, but when you subtract the price paid for accommodations, it isn't that much, along with the other negatives about it. One single sex act isn't just about demeaning but the chance of STD's, a beating or death. Freelancers are one thing, which still isn't good, but many work for others , either by choice or force. Sex workers die every day. Not all in Thailand of course but we don't see all of what goes on here, and drug addiction takes them also, which is a large part of the trade and obvious reasons why.

Nothing you are saying here is about male dominance (pimps aside).

Most hookers in Thailand choose this job and are not being pimped out or held as a sex slave.

They know the risks of unsafe sex, as do men.

And men take risks in life too, including risking their safety and life for money and for others, too.

Men get addicted to drugs also and suffer from the situations they out themselves in.

Nothing you are saying is specific to women

1 minute ago, NewGuy87 said:

Nothing you are saying here is about male dominance (pimps aside).

Most hookers in Thailand choose this job and are not being pimped out or held as a sex slave.

They know the risks of unsafe sex, as do men.

And men take risks in life too, including risking their safety and life for money and for others, too.

Men get addicted to drugs also and suffer from the situations they out themselves in.

Nothing you are saying is specific to women

This is all about male dominance if you read the whole thing. You don't know who chooses what in Thailand, as you don't know most of the hookers working. Most aren't trafficked yes, but the majority work for or with someone else.What I'm saying has nothing to do with normal, dangerous jobs. This is about the prostitution trade and isn't to be compared to anything else, the risks involved and how they live their lives.

Edited Saturday at 12:00 AM3 days by fredwiggy

1 minute ago, fredwiggy said:

Thinking about this more, domestic violence is actually higher in prostitution than regular relationships.

No, I think that's propaganda by the powers that be that continually demonize the sex industry. There must be 10,000 working women in Pattaya and it's remarkably safe.

Meanwhile, these people refuse to acknowledge the dark side of marriage -- abuse, astronomical divorce rates, an army of western men who are afraid to get married because of the unfair marriage laws. These people never address these problems and continually blow the negatives of prostitution out of proportion.

The worst thing about prostitution is lack of emotional connection. The girl is basically not forming any bond with anyone. The woman is going around from one shallow encounter to another.

1 hour ago, fredwiggy said:

Money is not the point of this thinking, but the aftereffects of it. Yes, they can make more money, but when you subtract the price paid for accommodations, it isn't that much,

Do you think these women pay the short time room for the customer? Lol.

Hell, most of them won't even ride public transport to work, like normal people; they expect round trip taxi fare (paid for them)

You can tell they have never had a real job before, lol.

8 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

The easy question is to ask yourself. Is this a good position for women, and would you like to see your daughters go into this because they aren't making enough money to get by?

That's a fair question.

I never had children because I had unstable jobs and moved around a lot.

I would not have a child unless there was enough money to put them through decent schooling.

But at the same time, you can't expect all farmers in Isaan to adopt the same mindset and only have children when the hypothetical amount of money may or may never arrive. I guess they have decided it's better to have a child, even if the only opportunities may be in Pattaya. And who can blame them?

What about the hard jobs that men do? Like construction. Have you seen some of these Thai guys slaving away on worksites in the sweltering heat? That's a hard life, man. And you're saying working in a bar is worse than that? Half their income isn't even sex. It's just selling drinks and keeping men company.

2 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

No, I think that's propaganda by the powers that be that continually demonize the sex industry. There must be 10,000 working women in Pattaya and it's remarkably safe.

Meanwhile, these people refuse to acknowledge the dark side of marriage -- abuse, astronomical divorce rates, an army of western men who are afraid to get married because of the unfair marriage laws. These people never address these problems and continually blow the negatives of prostitution out of proportion.

The worst thing about prostitution is lack of emotional connection. The girl is basically not forming any bond with anyone. The woman is going around from one shallow encounter to another.

Not propaganda and easily researched. Safe isn't all about not being beaten and killed. There is emotional damage that lasts longer than a beating. I've read enough about relationships and psychology to know about domestic problems and violence in them.

This trade is a lot more dangerous than many realize. Prostitutes aren't looked at as wives or girlfriends but something to use, and some go into it seeing just that. A piece of meat I can do whatever I want with, then toss aside just for a little pocket cash.

A wife or girlfriend has an emotional connection to a man, even if he's somewhat of a misogynist.

1 minute ago, save the frogs said:

That's a fair question.

I never had children because I had unstable jobs and moved around a lot.

I would not have a child unless there was enough money to put them through decent schooling.

But at the same time, you can't expect all farmers in Isaan to adopt the same mindset and only have children when the hypothetical amount of money may or may never arrive. I guess they have decided it's better to have a child, even if the only opportunities may be in Pattaya. And who can blame them?

What about the hard jobs that men do? Like construction. Have you seen some of these Thai guys slaving away on worksites in the sweltering heat? That's a hard life, man. And you're saying working in a bar is worse than that? Half their income isn't even sex. It's just selling drinks and keeping men company.

Many in Thailand have children just to take care of them when they're older. It's easy to see the lack of care going into children here compared with the west just by noticing how they're treated daily going to and from school.

I know full well how hard farming is as I helped my ex's family for 5 years here, daily in the heat, and I respect that position more now than I did before I moved here.

I have had hard jobs back in the US as well, so I wasn't a neophyte as far as hard work was concerned, building decks and gazebos in Texas heat in the sun.

7 minutes ago, NewGuy87 said:

Do you think these women pay the short time room for the customer? Lol.

Hell, most of them won't even ride public transport to work, like normal people; they expect round trip taxi fare (paid for them)

You can tell they have never had a real job before, lol.

Most that come into this trade have worked before, and pressure from family, and not wanting to take care of their children, are two reasons some go to tourist areas to make a little more cash, instead of staying near home, living with family, and being with their children, making less money but not having to pay for apartments in those tourist areas.

@fredwiggy - just curious. Have you ever paid for sex yourself? Comment on a topic without lived experience sounds to me like someone attempting to scale the moral high ground.

2 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

A wife or girlfriend has an emotional connection to a man, even if he's somewhat of a misogynist.

Yeah, but 50% of "emotional connections" become dysfunctional and sometimes extend to serious abuse, either psychological or physical.

Because human beings are generally screwed up and because navigating your own emotional minefield and your partner's emotional minefield can become overwhelming for most.

With prostitution, that is removed from the equation. So you don't get the good parts of an emotional connection, but you don't get the dysfunctional parts either.