7 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

This trade is a lot more dangerous than many realize. Prostitutes aren't looked at as wives or girlfriends but something to use, and some go into it seeing just that.

If a playboy scams his way into a girl's pants with the intention of dumping her later, then the girl is being used.

In prostitution, the girl is being paid. And paid much better than any other opportunity out there at her disposal. So she is not being used. There's no "love" and "emotions" or commitment, but she knows that going into the bargain and doesn't expect it anyway.

11 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Sex work is a choice many women make, because it pays better than working as a waitress.

Would love me some workers that are keen for $2.13 an hour + tips!

5 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

@fredwiggy - just curious. Have you ever paid for sex yourself? Comment on a topic without lived experience sounds to me like someone attempting to scale the moral high ground.

Yes, as I noted earlier, when I was a teenager a couple of times for oral, like many of my friends did, as I went along with them into NYC.I always respected women and didn't see until a little later what they went through, actually talking with a few of them about their lives, seeing how hard they had it way back then. Since then, seeing a lot more, especially after the internet came to be, with all the studies done by people doing the same things in a much larger context.

3 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

If a playboy scams his way into a girl's pants with the intention of dumping her later, then the girl is being used.

In prostitution, the girl is being paid. And paid much better than any other opportunity out there at her disposal. So she is not being used. There's no "love" and "emotions" or commitment, but she knows that going into the bargain and doesn't expect it anyway.

Any way a woman is used is wrong, and the same goes for men. There isn't any way of knowing what these women think unless a study is done or you actually talk to them, like those who do the studies do. Like I mentioned just now, I did talk to a few in NYC and they told me of a hard life, where fear and beatings were a normal part of their daily life. it isn't near a safe, happy life like some will try to convince you of.

9 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

Yeah, but 50% of "emotional connections" become dysfunctional and sometimes extend to serious abuse, either psychological or physical.

Because human beings are generally screwed up and because navigating your own emotional minefield and your partner's emotional minefield can become overwhelming for most.

With prostitution, that is removed from the equation. So you don't get the good parts of an emotional connection, but you don't get the dysfunctional parts either.

Humans get screwed up by their parents first and foremost, then go into the world thinking the way they saw is the way it is.

The world's problems all stem from those first years at home. If your mom was treated well by dad, you'll most likely go into the world doing the same thing to your partners.

When a mom is cheated on, abused and or neglected, that's all the children know, with girls looking at themselves as victims of men, and the boys seeing women as something to be used and tossed aside.

With prostitution, all a man gets is pleasure from a woman that really doesn't want to be there, with no emotional connection but a transaction.That is dysfunction as a regular women usually wants an emotional connection before she gives her most precious thing to a man. All depends on how they were raised of how they relate to men as adults.

40 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

Most that come into this trade have worked before, and pressure from family, and not wanting to take care of their children, are two reasons some go to tourist areas to make a little more cash, instead of staying near home, living with family, and being with their children

Isnt Thai culture great?

1 hour ago, fredwiggy said:

The easy question is to ask yourself. Is this a good position for women, and would you like to see your daughters go into this because they aren't making enough money to get by?

Who cares what strangers do? They arent my daughters.

They should have been raised better and they should raise their spawn better.

And I don't feel sorry for them.

There is a hooker in my EX's family who was earning 50-100k a month a decade ago. Good luck to her. But her offspring never saw none of that money. They were totally neglected.

Meanwhile, I was earning 30k at the time as a teacher in Isaan (and Thai teachers were getting only 10k) and I was able to give my kid a very good life and the Thai teachers I worked with raised their kids right, too.

Money is no excuse. You should see how poor my parents and grandparents were back West growing up. The average Isaan person today is better off, actually, but their culture is rotten (and not only Isaan but other regions in Thailand are the same, too).

Edited Saturday at 01:13 AM3 days by NewGuy87

18 hours ago, fredwiggy said:

Andrea Dworkin delivered this speech at a symposium entitled “Prostitution: From Academia to Activism,” sponsored by the Michican Journal of Gender and Law at the University of Michigan Law School, October 31, 1992.

Ah. Andrea Dworkin. Can never hear her name these days without fondly remembering the late Lord Morgan of Glossop ...

[For AN readers who don't know who he is, see below]

Lord Morgan of Glossop was Alan Partridge's final guest on the satirical chat show Knowing Me, Knowing You with Alan Partridge, where the 84-year-old peer notoriously told feminist Andrea Dworkin to "shut up and shave". During the episode, before the interview could properly begin, Lord Morgan tragically died of a heart attack right on Alan's couch. Alan famously handled the situation by covering the body with a Pringle jumper as a makeshift shroud and asking listeners driving on motorways to pull over for a minute of silence.

Rather than try and wade through the OP, I suggest spending the time (10 mins) to listen to the original interview (back when BBC comedy and Armando Iannuci weren't captured by woke).

50 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

That is dysfunction as a regular women usually wants an emotional connection before she gives her most precious thing to a man.

Her pussy is probably more previous to her than her own children, lol.

1 hour ago, fredwiggy said:

Yes, as I noted earlier, when I was a teenager a couple of times for oral, like many of my friends did, as I went along with them into NYC.I always respected women and didn't see until a little later what they went through, actually talking with a few of them about their lives, seeing how hard they had it way back then. Since then, seeing a lot more, especially after the internet came to be, with all the studies done by people doing the same things in a much larger context.

I do have to wonder why a man would abuse a woman who is giving him what he wants.

IME some of the best sex I have had has been paid, more often than not with the woman being in the dominant position.

1 hour ago, fredwiggy said:

With prostitution, all a man gets is pleasure from a woman that really doesn't want to be there, with no emotional connection but a transaction.That is dysfunction as a regular women usually wants an emotional connection before she gives her most precious thing to a man. All depends on how they were raised of how they relate to men as adults.

Disagree. Women do not need an emotional connection to enjoy sex.

If what you say was true, they would not masturbate.

1 hour ago, fredwiggy said:

With prostitution, all a man gets is pleasure from a woman that really doesn't want to be there, with no emotional connection but a transaction.

What they don't get is the dysfunction that is prevalent in half of relationships and marriages.

Here's a quote I just saw online. This woman tolerated 28 years of misery.

Every movement and ideology has extremes. Andrea Dworkin is the epitome of an extremist on the absolute fringe re "feminism". She should be ignored the same way her far right counterpart like Andrew Tate should be ignored.

Dworkin has said all man-woman sex is violent aggression, with the male continually "stabbing" the woman and violating her person. Not that the planet is a better place for her dad having "stabbed" her mom, but that's the only reason any of us are here, including Dworkin. She should take her complaint to her deity or to whatever was responsible for the evolution of living forms, because not just humans, but the birds and the bees do it that way, too. It works, because the body parts put the male's contribution exactly where it needs to go, so if the two key contributions meet, the result is already in a confined and protected space, where it can grow and lead to species reproduction. That it's fun is a wonderful benefit.

As a former member of the World's Second Oldest Profession, I feel like commenting on the oldest. I appreciate that there are women forced into it. I appreciate there are women pressured into it. I appreciate there are men who have an urge to dominate, even abuse women. None of that is good.

I also appreciate that there are economic advantages some women gain by entering that line of work, freely and of their own volition. Perhaps it takes a long term toll on their psyche, but not being a woman in that line of work, I don't know. I'm not sure a guy who services cesspools doesn't suffer some psychic damage, either. Not everybody loves his or her job.

I know, too, that some women engage in the act because they like the act. They neither ask for compensation nor receive any. The act itself is their goal and reward. I cannot judge a woman who does that, particularly since I did a lot of that myself...engaging in sex with a woman I met who did not become a girlfriend. I also see no difference between a woman who engages in it for fun vs a woman who engages in it for money. I see no moral superiority. They use their bodies for their own personal needs. (As an aside, I have zero interest in a virgin. Did that as a teen a few times, and it wasn't so special. When I marry I won't care what her body count might be, as I'm secure enough in my manhood that her past is her past...as is mine.)

The motivations of men who use a woman's services can run the gamut. It could be a desire to dominate. It could also be a search for variety. It could be a desire to partake in one of the most powerful and basic human drives, but to engage in it where there is no expectation of commitment. A man can be respectful of a woman who provides that service the same way a man can be respectful of a female who serves his meal or washes his clothes or sells him a new car or provides legal services. Only different religious belief systems label such a willing and fair exchange wrong. If no one is hurt in the exchange, no harm done. It's possible both parties can enjoy it.

Just because Andrea Dworkin has never done it, or did do it but did not enjoy it, gives her no right to tell everyone else how they must act.

4 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

What they don't get is the dysfunction that is prevalent in half of relationships and marriages.

Here's a quote I just saw online. This woman tolerated 28 years of misery.

I can mirror what she did, but I only waited 5 years before divorcing the one who did the same things. I too will not allow another of that type to damage my life or that of my daughter.

Wake up Natalie!

We know all about hookers who chase 80 year old men. 😫

Anna Nicole Smith never actually got money when her 90-year-old husband died. His will left his $1.6 billion estate to his son and nothing to her.

17 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Disagree. Women do not need an emotional connection to enjoy sex.

If what you say was true, they would not masturbate.

Everyone self serves for a number of reasons. Not having a woman or man around they can trust is one. Agree that not all women need an emotional connection, as some are promiscuous from their pasts or just don't trust a man enough to commit. Everyone enjoys sex, but it's always much better with a connection, where all your thinking goes into the both of you and not just one's pleasure, which is usually the mans, seen by the many complaints some men get that are only out for their own pleasure and not care about the woman's. Safety, letting one's vulnerability go, and caring more about your partners pleasure always comes back around to you.

1 minute ago, fredwiggy said:

Everyone self serves for a number of reasons. Not having a woman or man around they can trust is one. Agree that not all women need an emotional connection, as some are promiscuous from their pasts or just don't trust a man enough to commit. Everyone enjoys sex, but it's always much better with a connection, where all your thinking goes into the both of you and not just one's pleasure, which is usually the mans, seen by the many complaints some men get that are only out for their own pleasure and not care about the woman's. Safety, letting one's vulnerability go, and caring more about your partners pleasure always comes back around to you.

IME most women will respond to a man who takes the time to arouse them. That's true for paid and unpaid.

I ceratainly agree sex with a woman who is enjoying the act herself is more pleasurable.

1 hour ago, NewGuy87 said:

Who cares what strangers do? They arent my daughters.

They should have been raised better and they should raise their spawn better.

And I don't feel sorry for them.

There is a hooker in my EX's family who was earning 50-100k a month a decade ago. Good luck to her. But her offspring never saw none of that money. They were totally neglected.

Meanwhile, I was earning 30k at the time as a teacher in Isaan (and Thai teachers were getting only 10k) and I was able to give my kid a very good life and the Thai teachers I worked with raised their kids right, too.

Money is no excuse. You should see how poor my parents and grandparents were back West growing up. The average Isaan person today is better off, actually, but their culture is rotten (and not only Isaan but other regions in Thailand are the same, too).

The average Isaan person is better off than who? Ever take a ride around the country , interact with and see how most live? I think most people here have parents who were struggling, as most in the US do already. Any decent parent cares about all daughters worldwide, especially if they do have daughters, as they know more than anyone what they go through in teen years. I have been there for all my children's friends at one time or another, if only to give them a little advice, even though it might be forgotten for a little while. Nothing wrong with a woman being smart and hesitant about who she gives her body to, as most aren't going to stick around long anyway.

Just now, fredwiggy said:

The average Isaan person is better off than who? Ever take a ride around the country , interact with and see how most live? I think most people here have parents who were struggling, as most in the US do already. Any decent parent cares about all daughters worldwide, especially if they do have daughters, as they know more than anyone what they go through in teen years. I have been there for all my children's friends at one time or another, if only to give them a little advice, even though it might be forgotten for a little while. Nothing wrong with a woman being smart and hesitant about who she gives her body to, as most aren't going to stick around long anyway.

But they have nothing and appear happy

Vs

You have everything and appear unhappy.

My parents never struggled, my Brit family never struggled, my Thai family don't struggle. My daughters have never had any problems or experienced hardships. Obviously my sons always had problems not getting enough sex.

As far as I know all six of my kids were happy as teens.

Edited Saturday at 02:31 AM3 days by BritManToo

3 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

But they have nothing and appear happy

Vs

You have everything and appear unhappy.

Appearing happy doesn't mean a person is. I don't have near everything. I won't until we move back to Texas and I find another woman as a partner. I'm happy with my girlfriend and hope to find another like her when we return. Thailand doesn't have what I need for all happiness but America does.

1 minute ago, fredwiggy said:

Appearing happy doesn't mean a person is. I don't have near everything. I won't until we move back to Texas and I find another woman as a partner. I'm happy with my girlfriend and hope to find another like her when we return. Thailand doesn't have what I need for all happiness but America does.

Wherever you go ........ there you are!

27 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

The average Isaan person is better off than who?

My parents and grandparents when growing up.

In terms of infrastructure, medicine, healthcare, suitable clothing, suitable shelter, sanitation, availability of food, convenient technology, transportation, educational/work opportunities, and basic human rights, people all over Thailand now have it way easier now than previous generations in the West.

Yet my grandmother didn't send her daughters to work in brothels or on the street corner to send money home! That is rotten culture!

Hell, the average person in Thailand now has a better standard of living than Rockerfeller himself did.

Even simply being able to get a course of antibiotics for 50 baht, rather than dying from a simple throat infection or infected wound is something we take for granted....even kings and queens in the pre-penicillin era didn't have that luxury.

27 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

Ever take a ride around the country , interact with and see how most live?

I have a house in Isaan and lived in a small village for many years.

I already told you I was a teacher in Isaan before (and I described seeing how my EX inlaws neglected the children despite their hooker "mother" earning 50-100k a month).

I know better than most how these "people" live.

Edited Saturday at 03:15 AM3 days by NewGuy87

What a world in which we live 😊

We have foreigners flying to Thailand, paying for sex and companionship, vilifying their fellow sex tourists for doing much the same. Cognitive dissonance in play.

We have someone whose claimed sole experience with prostitutes were a couple of blow jobs as a teen, now presenting themselves as an authority on the subject. Perhaps not having come across the phrase, "don't believe everything that you read".

It just a variation on the same theme. Protect women. Provide for women. Did this guy only produce girls? Why the obsession?

I lived in Mayfair for a stint as a teenager, with a woman in her twenties, who had a two bedroom apartment there. I objected to her mode of employment, but as a fifteen year old, there was no way that I could keep her in a style to which she had become accustomed. Was she complaining about male dominance? No she was not.

She actively exploited the rich and they took advantage of her services. She even had a partner as far as I knew and I even met him on occasion. Once, as I arrived, he'd be going out to gamble. I also had a girlfriend...or two. One a year younger and my main squeeze, at 18. Both with the same name 😊

Mayfair girl bought me cars, clothes, jewellery. Gave me pocket money. Then there were her friends/freelance employees, who came to visit and who insisted on, in their words, wanting to give me pleasure.

All that male dominance, eh?

4 hours ago, fredwiggy said:

I look at these women as victims of men

That's one of your mistakes. Prostitution is bad. Because men are the victims. Women are exploiting the in-built testosterone fuelled libido men are born with for financial gain. So this is a form of financial exploitation of men by women. Women are NOT the victims, they are the exploiters.

The second mistake is not to recognise that this model, resources for sexual access, is the basis for 98% of all male female relationships, including marriages, normal relationships and prostitution. Only true love and lust relationships, ie one night stands, are excluded.

But then it's no wonder your thinking on this is skewed since you quote Dworkin, an obvious fool.

Edited Saturday at 03:27 AM3 days by Cameroni

1 hour ago, save the frogs said:

What they don't get is the dysfunction that is prevalent in half of relationships and marriages.

Here's a quote I just saw online. This woman tolerated 28 years of misery.

Women lie, quite a lot!

17 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

That's one of your mistakes. Prostitution is bad. Because men are the victims. Women are exploiting the in-built testosterone fuelled libido men are born with for financial gain. So this is a form of financial exploitation of men by women. Women are NOT the victims, they are the exploiters.

Did you blow your life savings on hookers?

If you are an alcoholic, should we blame the bars?

Are the bars "exploiting" your weakness for alcohol?

By that logic, all bars should be shut down.

Financial exploitation is a strong word.

4 hours ago, fredwiggy said:

Remember one thing. You don't have to read anything anyone posts here. Looking at the title is all a man needs to understand what it means.

Yet you have directly and indirectly claimed many times that anyone who does not read it must use prostitutes and disrespect women.

4 hours ago, fredwiggy said:

Responses to this topic aren't about me but other's thinking about the trade, and how it affects women.

My responses have been directly about you, not the topic. From the beginning, you have claimed that if anyone refuses to read the article it can only be because they use prostitutes, and lack the high level of respect you claim to have for women. There are other reasons why someone might not read the article. My reasons are the length of the novel, and your condescending, righteous attitude. I have no problem with the topic itself.

2 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

Did you blow your life savings on hookers?

If you are an alcoholic, should we blame the bars?

Are the bars "exploiting" your weakness for alcohol?

By that logic, all bars should be shut down.

Financial exploitation is a strong word.

You are also making a mistake.

You are equating a liking for alcohol to sex. This is a fallacy, since a man is subject to testosterone he has a high sex drive and must have sex. This is not the case with alcohol, there is no hormone that impels a man to need alcohol, men like alcohol because it is a drug and provides a dopamine hit. With sex it is very different. Testosterone means a man must have sex, as his hormones compel him to.

Women exploit a testosterone fuelled sex drive. Bars do not do that.

4 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Women lie, quite a lot!

I think people just learn how to manipulate in order to try to get what they want. That behaviour becomes their norm and manifests itself in different ways.

Some people can hardly move without bumping into narcissists. 😊

It's all relative.

I literally cannot get my head around someone who is so obviously a sex tourist, slamming other sex tourists who perhaps have a slight different mode of play. What goes on in that person's mind, for them to be able to justify to themselves that they are somehow different from the other sex tourists?

It's not just women who lie. People delude themselves.

1 minute ago, IsmeUno said:

I think people just learn how to manipulate in order to try to get what they want. That behaviour becomes their norm and manifests itself in different ways.

Some people can hardly move without bumping into narcissists. 😊

It's all relative.

I literally cannot get my head around someone who is so obviously a sex tourist, slamming other sex tourists who perhaps have a slight different mode of play. What goes on in that person's mind, for them to be able to justify to themselves that they are somehow different from the other sex tourists?

It's not just women who lie. People delude themselves.

The trick is to never want anything or anyone that much.

(and to be considered 'desirable' by all your woman's female friends)

Edited Saturday at 03:53 AM3 days by BritManToo