The Two Country Expat Solution

[Jingthing]

I am well settled here on retirement extension and don't wish to leave anytime soon. So given the frequent changes of course I am aware there might come a day when I can no longer or no longer wish to comply with the visa change flavor du jour. For example, if they begin to require a transfer of a NEW 800K annually, I will not comply with that.

So, I am thinking about my plan B. If forced out, most likely many others would be forced out, so selling my condo would be very difficult. So I want a plan B that doesn't force me to dump my condo at a fire sale price.

So here is my idea, not terribly original, but what do you think?

Forget long term visas. Establish myself in a second country in a cheap rented apartment. Probably the Philippines, but possibly Malaysia or Cambodia. Then ... commute.

On this plan, I can imagine living in my Thailand condo easily for 9 months of the year with a combination of tourist visas and the allowed 3 per 6 month period entry stamps. Now, I realize you can stay in Thailand all year if you are lucky and smart using those methods, but I am looking for a crackdown defense plan. It seems to me unlikely that it would be a problem getting only one or two tourist visas per year in Malaysia.

Other people thinking along these lines?

The irony of this from the Thai perspective is that I would be spending alot less money in Thailand. i would spend down my Thai bank account that is only there for visa purposes and of course I would be spending money in the second country during the time I am not here.

I am also waiting for someone to say people who follow the plan I am proposing are abusers or undesirable scum. Ha ha ha ... I really don't care what you think. As I have said before, we are all only as good here as our last stamp.

Edited September 3, 2007 by Jingthing

[naka]

What is it about Thailand that you simply cannot bear to be away from ?

I've lived here for many years but if was forced to leave tomorrow

it would not worry me much.

Naka.

[THAILIBAN]

What is it about Thailand that you simply cannot bear to be away from ?

I've lived here for many years but if was forced to leave tomorrow

it would not worry me much.

Naka.

I would not be too worried either, but the thing is, once you have decided to SETTLE somewhere, its not easy (and a hassle) to move..... and its costly, as u will have to sell a lot of things (probably at a very low price) u bought during ur time here.... and then buy those items AGAIN at ur new place.

I could easily live in one of the neighboring countries, and actually MALAYSIA was my first choice that time back in 2003, but at the time I decided to move to Asia, Thailand was the country where a long-stay-Visa was quite easy to obtain, even for non-married under 50 year olds.

If I knew before what happened in the recent past, I for sure would not have chosen Thailand. But in malaysia, for example, u cannot get a multiple-business-Visa as it was available in Thailand for decades.

on the other hand, even as a tourist u get 90 days each time you arrive in Malaysia.

why I still would like to live here in Thailand: Its quite CONVENIENT, because everything a foreigner needs, is available (food, particularly), and the life-style is quite easygoing.

but as I dont match the new standards, I might be forced to do it the same way as the OP..... though, honestly, Cambodia scares me away..... even a long-stay-permit is easy to come by....

by the way: does anybody know where they age of "retirement VISA" is lower than 50 ? 45 or even 40 maybe ? In Malaysia you could do that under the "Malaysia my second home" - program, but if u r under 50, you not only have to bring a huge deposit, u have to have a high fixed income as well, which I dont have, as the projects where I earn a living of, are freelance usually.... and u r not permitted to work under this program....

seems like VIETNAM is the place to go, just in case.....

[marginline]

I've lived here for many years but if was forced to leave tomorrow

it would not worry me much.

Have to agree with you too naka; my Thai partner and I are 'comfortably numb' on the idea of leaving LOS too.

If Thailand doesn't want to benefit from our combined monthly spending here, we know other countries close by that do.

[ovenman]

Other people thinking along these lines?

I've thought about that with Penang being my other option. I'd be looking at the living arrangement a bit differently though in that I would make a fifty-fifty split time-wise between Chiang Mai and Penang. All theoretical at this point but it never hurts to have a Plan 'B' or a Plan 'C' in the back of the mind.

[Taggart]

My Thai wife and I are making plans in the future for a possible move to retire to Thailand. We're both in our late 50's. If it happens within the next few years, it's possible I may not live there year round with her. If not, I've already thought about two scenarios.

Plan A: Live in Thailand for five months a year, and hibernate from the cold Canadian winters. Then return to Canada. Repeat the cycle the following year.

Plan B: Become a year round PT (Perpetual Traveler) in the cheapest parts of South East Asia. For those who have never heard of "Perpetual Travelers", do a search on the internet. There's plenty of info. I would find a small city in each country that I like, and stay there for the duration of the visa for that particular country. At the end, do a visa run, then return, or go to another country, and when I can, head back to Thailand, and stay as long as I can. I was reading at Lonely Planet, that in Laos, the authorities aren't picky, and don't care how often you go in and out of the country, every thirty days. They just want your visa money. No showing savings in the bank, and proving documentation about marriage, and all that crud.

I also thought about doing the same in parts of Central and South America, but without my speaking any Spanish, I rejected that idea.

[Jingthing]

What is it about Thailand that you simply cannot bear to be away from ?

I've lived here for many years but if was forced to leave tomorrow

it would not worry me much.

Naka.

If you read my post, I think I kind of answered that question already. I am heavily invested here by my standards and I have no intention whatsoever to throw away that investment without a fight. Why should I? Would you? If you haven't noticed, the condo market for farangs is sheit right now. The posted prices are not much changed, but I do believe very few units are selling. So where is the base of farangs to buy or even rent these condos? It is shrinking and under threat, just like me. If it wasn't for my condo investment (others, you have been warned!!!!) I would have no problem leaving. So the answer is I can leave Thailand but I can't really afford to leave my money.

Edited September 3, 2007 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Plan B: Become a year round PT (Perpetual Traveler)

That is something to consider. But I would think the older you get, the less a backpacker "lifestyle" appeals, but I can certainly see doing that for awhile.

[samtam]

I agree that the PT idea does not appeal. I find even the idea of having two homes too much work and expense, and with travel becoming more of a hassle by the day, if I can avoid it, I do. These factors would certainly become more relevant as I get older.

[Jingthing]

I agree that the PT idea does not appeal. I find even the idea of having two homes too much work and expense, and with travel becoming more of a hassle by the day, if I can avoid it, I do. These factors would certainly become more relevant as I get older.

Agreed. That is why this is a plan B idea. Not my first choice. Only out of necessity. I was really asking for feedback on whether this would WORK visa-wise. I recognize the increased costs and logistical problems of having multiple residences. In my case, it would be semi-temporary until the market might change where I could dump my condo for a decent price. Then I would move to the Philippines or Ecuador.

Edited September 3, 2007 by Jingthing

[marginline]

What is it about Thailand that you simply cannot bear to be away from ?

I've lived here for many years but if was forced to leave tomorrow

it would not worry me much.

Naka.

If you read my post, I think I kind of answered that question already. I am heavily invested here by my standards and I have no intention whatsoever to throw away that investment without a fight. Why should I? Would you? If you haven't noticed, the condo market for farangs is sheit right now. The posted prices are not much changed, but I do believe very few units are selling. So where is the base of farangs to buy or even rent these condos? It is shrinking and under threat, just like me. If it wasn't for my condo investment (others, you have been warned!!!!) I would have no problem leaving. So the answer is I can leave Thailand but I can't really afford to leave my money.

Great post Jungthing!

Caveat emptor you folks still considering buying in this uncertain time.

[PeaceBlondie]

Jingthing, I kind of feel your pain, but then again, I can't really feel it. I never bought a home here; I've only ever rented for 8000/month or less. Commuting between countries is too much hassle for most of us. I can give my old pickup truck to my partner, sell the old bike and a few more things, and take the memories to Latin America.

You guys always told me, don't put anything into Thailand that you can't walk away from. That includes seminal deposits. Those who have children here probably are trapped. Sorry about that, too.

[ovenman]

I was really asking for feedback on whether this would WORK visa-wise.

I can't see why it wouldn't work given the current system but therein lies the rub, who knows what changes lie ahead? What I suggested for myself about a 50/50 split between Chiang Mai and Penang could even be made to work without visas if one was willing to shuffle back-and-forth every month or so which in all honesty, would be just fine for me. I rarely stay home for longer than a month at a time as it is.

[Jingthing]

Jingthing, I kind of feel your pain, but then again, I can't really feel it. I never bought a home here; I've only ever rented for 8000/month or less. Commuting between countries is too much hassle for most of us. I can give my old pickup truck to my partner, sell the old bike and a few more things, and take the memories to Latin America.

You guys always told me, don't put anything into Thailand that you can't walk away from. That includes seminal deposits. Those who have children here probably are trapped. Sorry about that, too.

You are clearly a wiser man than me. You know in the real estate trade, it is often about selling it to the next sucker. I see the sucker supply drying up. I admit my mistake. I think this real estate situation is a big deal for a lot of people. I would have thought there are some big money people behind real estate development for the farang market that would see the connection between visa uncertainties and the health of the market. Those are the only power interests I can think of that could possibly have an influence on moving towards LIBERALIZING retirement visas, as other similar countries are doing, rather than these continuing and very annoying tightening up changes.

And, yes, BTW, I do have a specific suggestion for a change. Follow the example of Mexico. For those who buy their expat home, cut the visa financial requirements in half. For obvious reasons. Such people have made a big investment to live in the foreign country and also they need less money because they own their homes already. Also a great incentive and support for the local real estate developers. You get more than a home, you get a visa advantage.

Edited September 3, 2007 by Jingthing

[OlRedEyes]

I still believe that if you want to own property, buy in your own country and rent it out. In Asia the rules change too easily, even in stable countries such as Malaysia who knows what can happen. Rent. It's cheap, and you can move quickly.

I'm also thinking of starting to wander around, even though AT THIS STAGE I don't have to. Feeling welcome where you are is important.

Edited September 3, 2007 by OlRedEyes

[Taggart]

Plan B: Become a year round PT (Perpetual Traveler)

That is something to consider. But I would think the older you get, the less a backpacker "lifestyle" appeals, but I can certainly see doing that for awhile.

Yes, that's true. If you're in good health it's certainly doable, but only for a small percentage. It helps if you're either single, or a childless couple, like my wife and myself. I know of people, who have retired very young. They had good, well paying jobs, but were also great savers, and they were also very frugal. They were able to adopt this lifestyle, and they love it. The world's their oyster. Once they've done this for a few years, they start to see the places, towns and cities, that they like the most. They can end up staying in their favourite for a few weeks, a few months, and in some cases, stay for a year or so, before moving on. They also get their costs down, because once they know an area, they quickly learn the cheapest places to shop, eating places, and accommodation.

In our case, I don't think it would be too difficult to find decent clean rooms, with own bathroom, for around U.S. $10 to $15 a night in parts of SEA. On a long term stay, this can probably be negotiated down. Plenty of cheap eats in that part of the world as well.

[nemo38]

This is clearly going to create some difficulties in the condo market. As you say, the 'for sale' prices aren't dropping. But units may not be shifting.

Before you see a crash in the condo market there will be people who want to buy into any dip in prices. Now might be a good time to shave 10% off your sale price and sell the condo before everyone else decides to jump out.

If you decide to 'bounce' between two countries this doubles your uncertainty. Whacky things have happened in this region in the past like Malaysia siezing foreigners property and investments.

Best of luck!

[Sateev]

This is clearly going to create some difficulties in the condo market. As you say, the 'for sale' prices aren't dropping. But units may not be shifting.

Before you see a crash in the condo market there will be people who want to buy into any dip in prices. Now might be a good time to shave 10% off your sale price and sell the condo before everyone else decides to jump out.

If you decide to 'bounce' between two countries this doubles your uncertainty. Whacky things have happened in this region in the past like Malaysia siezing foreigners property and investments.

Best of luck!

Thai version of supply and demand: demand drops, raise the price to make up the shortfall...

Sateev

[chiang mai]

I am well settled here on retirement extension and don't wish to leave anytime soon. So given the frequent changes of course I am aware there might come a day when I can no longer or no longer wish to comply with the visa change flavor du jour. For example, if they begin to require a transfer of a NEW 800K annually, I will not comply with that.

So, I am thinking about my plan B. If forced out, most likely many others would be forced out, so selling my condo would be very difficult. So I want a plan B that doesn't force me to dump my condo at a fire sale price.

So here is my idea, not terribly original, but what do you think?

Forget long term visas. Establish myself in a second country in a cheap rented apartment. Probably the Philippines, but possibly Malaysia or Cambodia. Then ... commute.

On this plan, I can imagine living in my Thailand condo easily for 9 months of the year with a combination of tourist visas and the allowed 3 per 6 month period entry stamps. Now, I realize you can stay in Thailand all year if you are lucky and smart using those methods, but I am looking for a crackdown defense plan. It seems to me unlikely that it would be a problem getting only one or two tourist visas per year in Malaysia.

Other people thinking along these lines?

The irony of this from the Thai perspective is that I would be spending alot less money in Thailand. i would spend down my Thai bank account that is only there for visa purposes and of course I would be spending money in the second country during the time I am not here.

I am also waiting for someone to say people who follow the plan I am proposing are abusers or undesirable scum. Ha ha ha ... I really don't care what you think. As I have said before, we are all only as good here as our last stamp.

I'm 100% onboard with your idea and I am contemplating something very similar. I rarely spend more than one month in the same place so it would fit in nicely with my lifestyle. I may still regard Thailand as my "home" or perhaps it would be more appropriate to call it "my most permanent base" but the risk to the Thai government is that I may find somewhere else more attractive and cease to spend my money here. Nothing wrong with having multiple homes in different countries, the very rich people do it all the time so why not us moderately rich!

[VBF]

I agree that the PT idea does not appeal. I find even the idea of having two homes too much work and expense, and with travel becoming more of a hassle by the day, if I can avoid it, I do. These factors would certainly become more relevant as I get older.

Also, IMHO, these, the "Two-country" and "PT" solutions are just workarounds to a very unsatisfactory situation. Surely the point is that if you've retired, you really don't WANT to have to be bouncing around in constant fear of changing rules. Retirement is meant to be a relaxing time after a lifetime of stresses - isn't it? Having said that, I don't have a better idea - just adding food for thought.

[Nickthegreek]

Hi All,

I am new to the website and trying to catch up on some of all of yours years of experience surrounding thailand.

Is there no forum where you/we can be heard,or is Thailand that deaf to the future of its retirement market,I am sorry if this does seem really of the wall and a stupid statement/comment,but I dont know.

Nick

[VBF]

Is there no forum where you/we can be heard,or is Thailand that deaf to the future of its retirement market.....

Hi Nick,

AFAIK, this is probably the best place to do just that!

It has been mentioned on TV that Thai Immigration people do look at this forum, also Sunbelt the sponsor has contacts inside Immigration.

For that reason, well reasoned polite debate on here is a Very Good Thing!

[Jingthing]

I agree that the PT idea does not appeal. I find even the idea of having two homes too much work and expense, and with travel becoming more of a hassle by the day, if I can avoid it, I do. These factors would certainly become more relevant as I get older.

Also, IMHO, these, the "Two-country" and "PT" solutions are just workarounds to a very unsatisfactory situation. Surely the point is that if you've retired, you really don't WANT to have to be bouncing around in constant fear of changing rules. Retirement is meant to be a relaxing time after a lifetime of stresses - isn't it? Having said that, I don't have a better idea - just adding food for thought.

I agree 100 percent. Which is why I am exploring this Plan B and others. Thailand just doesn't offer that relaxation and security that retirees want. It would be very easy for them to offer it, so many ways. For example, a path towards retirement permanent residence after 5 years of annual extensions, so that after that, no more annual extensions. Just one way, there are many others. I think they are bright enough to know they aren't offering this security, so I have to conclude they don't intend to offer it.

Edited September 3, 2007 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Is there no forum where you/we can be heard,or is Thailand that deaf to the future of its retirement market.....

Hi Nick,

AFAIK, this is probably the best place to do just that!

It has been mentioned on TV that Thai Immigration people do look at this forum, also Sunbelt the sponsor has contacts inside Immigration.

For that reason, well reasoned polite debate on here is a Very Good Thing!

I would love to be a fly on the wall (a Thai fly naturally) during the meeting where the lucky official who monitors this site boils it down from their perspective. Now, that would be hilarious!

Frankly, yes, I am sure this site is monitored. Which is one reason why I continue to bring up helpful suggestions. My two main ones are, a path towards permanent residence for retirees after 5 years so that after that annual extensions would be over, and reduced financial requirements for retirees who have purchased condos in a foreign name.

Edited September 3, 2007 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Another budget variation on the two country program would be to find a "country hopping buddy" who lives in Penang for example, where you both agree to just go back and fourth every month, sharing your condos/apartments. Anyone know if Malaysia would have a problem with so many entries in a year?

Edited September 3, 2007 by Jingthing

[dee123]

....Hey guys I don't like to be a "I told you so",....but...I .........., .....!

[Jingthing]

....Hey guys I don't like to be a "I told you so",....but...I .........., .....!

No problem. And now more of us are telling others so. The cycle continues ...

[ovenman]

Anyone know if Malaysia would have a problem with so many entries in a year?

I probably average ten Malaysia entries/exits per year and immigrations has never said anything negative to me about it. That said, I'm usually only there for a week maximum at a time.

[Nickthegreek]

Well Guys,

That brings me up to speed on this topic thanks.

All I can add is, I hope that this forum does make a difference,as currently,I am trying to stay positive to the move that I made to throw in the towel in the UK,not to mention a good job( I hasten to add this was my choice and I am not crying)however, I do hope that I made the right choice,I love Thailand and still have 10 years and 333 days until I am fifty,so I really hope that by the time I get there, it will be more secure for all.

Nick

[VBF]

Frankly, yes, I am sure this site is monitored. Which is one reason why I continue to bring up helpful suggestions. My two main ones are, a path towards permanent residence for retirees after 5 years so that after that annual extensions would be over, and reduced financial requirements for retirees who have purchased condos in a foreign name.

May I, on the back of Jingthing's post add another suggestion. How about a 2 or 3 year Retirement extension after the first one? In other words, go to Thailand, do what you need to do to retire, behave for a year (as most people do) and be rewarded and trusted with a longer extension. This could go hand in hand with the path towards PR giving serious retirees a chance to prove themselves, learn some Thai etc.

I really do hope Immigration reads this post - Sunbelt - any chance of passing it on, or am I way too optimistic?