2 Elephants At Night Safari Die

[Nienke]

I would disagree that the majority of the elephant camps "abuse" the elephants. As I noted in my first post, one can support the type of elephant camp that one feels most comfortable with. But the sad fact is that there is no alternative for the majority of the elephants other than to be in one camp or another. There is simply not enough room in the few "sanctuaries" to hold all the elephants.

I believe that the majority of the training centers use the training methods as described in the link Waiwai posted. I call that pure abusive. Many mahoots 'control' their elephants with those pick-things (how you call those). The elephants 'obey' out of fear and avoidance of pain. Also this I hardly can call animal friendly.

Concerning the alternatives: there is ALWAYS a choice on how one trains an elephant or any animal, meaning what kind of training methods are used.

And in answer to Bosshog's question "Ok, but how does a tourist know which is good and bad? I dont know either.". many toursits don't know, because it is not made known. After all, what's more important than money

And as I said above, there is an alternative. It can be done differently.

Nienke

[tijnebijn]

To keep animals in a Zoo is wrong in the first place .

How we would feel if something kept us , just to watch us ......

You mean like GOD?

Whatever , if you think it is funny , be my guest .

I just do not believe a Zoo is a good thing , keep the animals in real nature .

Maybe there is real good research and to keep spieces alive , but

I still do not believe in the principal Zoo .

[Tywais]

Many mahoots 'control' their elephants with those pick-things (how you call those). The elephants 'obey' out of fear and avoidance of pain. Also this I hardly can call animal friendly.

I suspect that technique has been used for hundreds of years and will be difficult to get the trainers to learn new, humane, methods of training. Change can be very difficult for those who find what they are doing works.

[Nienke]

Many mahoots 'control' their elephants with those pick-things (how you call those). The elephants 'obey' out of fear and avoidance of pain. Also this I hardly can call animal friendly.

I suspect that technique has been used for hundreds of years and will be difficult to get the trainers to learn new, humane, methods of training. Change can be very difficult for those who find what they are doing works.

True, and that's the sh*t part. This is not only with animals, just look at human society, that is also based on punishment and fear.

Still I do believe that change is possible, starting with your (my) self.

Nienke

[ilyushin]

Terrible news indeed.

[Ulysses G.]

To keep animals in a Zoo is wrong in the first place .

How we would feel if something kept us , just to watch us ......

You mean like GOD?

Whatever , if you think it is funny , be my guest .

Merely an cosmic observation. Don't get your panties in a twist!

[FolkGuitar]

Chiang Mai is losing its appeal as a backpack tourist destination. Something/someone with big money needs to take its place. I'll bet it WILL be casinos!

FolkGuitar, you are one of Chiang Mai's most intelligent, most well read, most handsome and charming posters, but I bet that you are wrong this time. Thais are just too hypocritical to legalize gambling!

I think I'm going to blush.... Nah. You can't fight the truth....

But....... I am willing to risk the price of an ice cream sundae on this one. THAT'S how sure I am that this will be the future for Chiang Mai. Besides being so handsome and stuff, I'm also psychic... anyway, this is what I was told by my very good friends who live in the center of the earth!

Can anyone come up with any other logical reason why so many different international cartels are willing to invest millions in mega-hotels in the middle of nowhere? These guys aren't dumb! There is an agenda here. I think if the 'big boys' are making money, they will be more than happy to re-write the laws. If it were only Thai ventures I'd be willing to concede the possibility of TIT regarding so much construction, but these folk are international.

Right now, one of the first to open, the Oriental Dara Devi (sp?) is giving their boutique shops virtually rent free accommodations just to keep them there. Why? Did this hotel open too soon? Why, with the flower show flopped, the Night Safari worse, and no new airport, are SO many of the international chains putting up such large and expensive hotels? Who will be their target market? Certainly not us ex-pats. I know that rich bibliophiles can afford $1,000 USD a night for a single room, but us poor photographers can't. I'm hard pressed to spend $750 a night! (I think I may have put the decimal point in the wrong place there....) There must be SOME rationale behind so many different groups building so many huge hotel complexes in a small town in the north of Thailand... Just like a small town in the desert of Nevada, only wetter...

[Ulysses G.]

Very logical, so not very Thai.

I hope that you are right, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Edited October 14, 2007 by Ulysses G.

[mcgriffith]

I know this is a thread hijack in progress, and I hate to contribute to it, but.....

Regarding the possibility of casinos/gambling being legalised, and being possibly the reason for the mega development, et al.

First, I agree with UG. I don't think it is going to happen. Yes, there are a lot of massive large scale projects in the pipeline here in CM. What we may be forgetting is that these same projects were drawn up, plans approved, financing secured, geo surveys completed, ground broken, etc.- at least 2+ years ago- when another gov't was calling the shots. The buildings will be built. The big question is: will the rooms be occupied, and the condos sold?

Secondly, I hope that gambling is not legalised here. Ever. I am not anti-gambling per se; if you want to play a game of cards with friends, or bet on the horses, all the best. What I object to is how gambling centers (like Las Vegas) become huge glitzy seedy monuments to all the worst in human nature; avarice, crimes of passion, destitution, etc. I stayed 2 weeks in Vegas with my sister before moving here; she had just bought a condo there. What a shitehole of a town. Couldn't wait to get out of there. And surprise!, I just found out my sister who moved there, has just moved back to the San Francisco Bay area in CA....she couldn't stand it either.

Casinos mixed in with the Lanna culture? Now that is heresy....

[Crow Boy]

My Girlfriend's sister and husband (Japanese) just left my house. They had been to the Zoo today and I asked if they knew that two elephants had just died because they were given the wrong type of grass. Neither did and what disturbed me most was the total lack of care about it. They were more concerned about the extra 100baht it cost to see the Pandas.

After they left I spoke to my girlfriend about it and said that a lot of farung on the forum are upset about the deaths. She said that she was sad because she likes elephants but most Thais are of the opinion that there are too many elephants and that they cost too much to keep so the loss won't upset most Thais, especially up here.

This also puts into perspective the long and drawn out fight that happened some time ago between the Thai and the Australian government over exchange of animals (including elephants) between the CM zoo and the Dubbo zoo which is a HUGE expanse of open land used to house large animals. Animal rights activists in Australia were fighting the export of kangaroos and other native animals to the CM zoo and night safari. Similarly Thais were trying to prevent the Elephant as a sacred animal of Thailand from being sent to Oz. The concern on both side was the lack of suitable feed and knowledge to care for these animals. Thai animal rights groups claimed that Australian zoo keepers would not know how to take care of Elephants because they aren't native to the country and so they would be given the wrong type of food causing them to die.

I wonder if they are monitoring the number of exchange animals that have survived in both zoos.

CB

[FolkGuitar]

Very logical, so not very Thai.

I hope that you are right, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Oh, I agree completely that it's not very Thai at all. But it's the only logical explanation 'I' can come up with. When we American business corporations think of 'long term' planning, it's a two - three year plan. When most Asian corporations do the same thing, it's a 10-20 year plan. When the founder of Sony Electronics retired, at his retirement party he gave a speech in which he said "Let us never lose sight of our 500 year plan!' If course here it's a three month plan, but TIT.

God, I'd hate to see Chiang Mai turned into another Vegas. As Crowboy said, it's a good place not to be. However, should that occur, there will be an influx of money, the likes of which Thailand has never seen. Those that have planed for it will make a mint. And just to bring the thread back around to the original concept, there WILL be money for good zoos and other wildlife attractions. Game parks. Drive through safari parks, etc. When was the last time any of us saw wildlife larger than a rodent while tramping in the jungle. Something for the kids to do while mom and day are donating their life savings to the Widows and Orphan's Fund at the tables.

And I AM willing to bet an ice cream sundae on it! Winner's choice of flavor!

[Nienke]

When was the last time any of us saw wildlife larger than a rodent

And I AM willing to bet an ice cream sundae on it! Winner's choice of flavor!

Last night in my office ...

So, the ice cream Sundae is mine? Chocolate chip, please

[WaiWai]

Wow, Nienke - assuming it was alive - do you know what it is called ? how big was it ?

BTW - interesting as the casino debate is, it'd be much better to have it in a separate thread. Easy to start one .

[cmsally]

When was the last time any of us saw wildlife larger than a rodent

And I AM willing to bet an ice cream sundae on it! Winner's choice of flavor!

Last night in my office ...

So, the ice cream Sundae is mine? Chocolate chip, please

We get these too, Size of a small plate approx.

Really beautiful, unfortunately I don't know the name.

[Nienke]

When was the last time any of us saw wildlife larger than a rodent

And I AM willing to bet an ice cream sundae on it! Winner's choice of flavor!

Last night in my office ...

So, the ice cream Sundae is mine? Chocolate chip, please

Yoohee! Found it on : http://www.thaibugs.com/mothssat.htm#

It seems to be an Atlas moth (Attacus atlas) and well the largest in the world. Although, my maid said that in Mae Teang she's seen bigger ones ... and I've seen bigger ones in The Philippines as well.

Anyway, she is gorgeous.

This certainly must mean good luck and worth an ice-cream Sundae Maybe she's my guardian angle

Still in my office and freaking out my maid

[WaiWai]

A beauty, indeed.

[Crow Boy]

BTW - interesting as the casino debate is, it'd be much better to have it in a separate thread. Easy to start one .

Interesting yes but against forum rules to discuss gambling because it is an illegal activity. Oddly enough it apparently ok to talk about buffalo fighting and cock fighting which both involve betting but they are legal or at least can be licensed. It is also ok to talk about lotteries because they are run by the state but unless the casino is approved by the government we can't talk/write/type about it.

Cheers

CB

[WaiWai]

Thanks for the clarification, Crow Boy.

Can't we discuss a hypothetical casino ?

[Ulysses G.]

Since it would hypothetically be legal...

[Dustoff]

Yoohee! Found it on : <a href="http://www.thaibugs.com/mothssat.htm#" target="_blank">http://www.thaibugs.com/mothssat.htm#</a>

This one was in our yard not long ago. The wings are a bit better developed and I love the snake-heads on the wingtips. Some defense design, eh?

He not only hung around long enough for photos but allowed me to gently stroke his wings. He measured over 9" (23cm) wingtip to wingtip and the silvery colored panels are actually almost transparent and we could see the leaves through them.

Incredible...

Edited October 15, 2007 by Dustoff

[Nienke]

25 cm

YES... the ice-cream is still MINE!

[WaiWai]

Hope to encounter one soon.

Re Dustoff's comments - I thought one should never touch the wings of a butterfly or moth, so as not to ... rub the Dust Off .

Seriously, is this a myth? Can it be done by people who know how or is it to be avoided at all times ? (Sorry, Dustoff !)

[Dustoff]

Hope to encounter one soon.

Re Dustoff's comments - I thought one should never touch the wings of a butterfly or moth, so as not to ... rub the Dust Off .

Seriously, is this a myth? Can it be done by people who know how or is it to be avoided at all times ? (Sorry, Dustoff !)

Don't rub the Dustoff?

While I am no expert, the color on the wings is not dust but scales and actually quite hardy; altho it is advised to handle them with care. As far as I know the scales grow back but they have no function in their ability to fly. And they only live for 2-4 weeks, so perhaps they don't have time to replace scales? Anybody else know...?

[FolkGuitar]

Yoohee! Found it on : <a href="http://www.thaibugs.com/mothssat.htm#" target="_blank">http://www.thaibugs.com/mothssat.htm#</a>

This one was in our yard not long ago. The wings are a bit better developed and I love the snake-heads on the wingtips. Some defense design, eh?

He not only hung around long enough for photos but allowed me to gently stroke his wings. He measured over 9" (23cm) wingtip to wingtip and the silvery colored panels are actually almost transparent and we could see the leaves through them.

Incredible...

If you visit the Sai Nam Phung Orchid Nursery in Mae Rim, they have a butterfly area filled with dozens of these guys (and girls) From what I was told, the females frequently never even leave their hatching spot before a male jumps them, and they stay together like that for a couple of days. They lay their eggs and pass on to that great butterfly farm in the sky. I often go there to take photos of these moths as the are the perfect models. They just never move! As DustOff said, you can actually touch them and they will still remain motionless. I've gotten some very nice macro shots, so close you can see the tiny hairs on the bodies making beautiful designs. To be honest, they scared the sh#t out of me when I was a kid and didn't know they were harmless. These days they just make me smile.

[WaiWai]

Looked at a few sites for advice on handling butterflies and moths. The consensus seems to be to avoid touching unless necessary for some special reason.

5. Can butterflies be damaged by handling? Can you damage a cocoon by handling it?

Medium to large butterflies can be safely handled and released by persons who know how to do it. Any butterfly can be fatally damaged by being handled improperly. For example, the vein on the front wing if broken will cause the butterfly to be flightless evermore. Their internal organs can be injured. Although the loss of some wing scales does not harm the butterfly, I personally prefer not to see butterflies in butterfly conservatories with thumb prints on their wings.

In general, best to simply observe wildlife - elephants included.

Edited October 16, 2007 by WaiWai

[tijnebijn]

At home here in chiangdao are many of these glorious huge butterfies every year

Yes they are Aren't they amazing !

[nevermind]

2 elephants at Night Safari die

Two elephants at Chiang Mai's Night Safari died last month, while three others have fallen ill due to bad digestion resulting from eating the wrong kind of grass, resident veterinarians said Tuesday.

Suphoj Maythaphirat, a senior official, said Night Safari animal keepers were partly at fault for not screening the feed bought from villagers, adding that elephants should not eat too much old grass in a single sitting.

Phang Joi and Phang Grandma died late last month after succumbing to extremely bad digestion, while three other elephants are recovering from the same symptoms. Suphoj said only soft grass will be fed to the ill elephants. They will also be given more water to drink.

Suphoj said insecticide in the grass - bought regularly from three communities in Tambon Mae Hia, Suthep and Nong Khwai - could be a reason for the deaths and that tests were currently underway.

Source: The Nation - 10 October 2007

Its such a shame and so very sad, I visited there once and although on the surface it looked good, after I took a closer look you got the sense that they were not sure how to take care of all there various animals, and thought something would eventually happen, such a shame poor animals, but must admit chiang Mai zoo was alot worst, when I went there, I saw dead snakes still in there enclosures, I could take another visit.

[mobs00]

i would love to able to stay in a lodge , in a national park , watching elephants and tigers etc in their natural habitat.....African countries have done it , cant they do it here?

They could...... If they had animals LEFT in their natural habitat.

[BossHogg]

i would love to able to stay in a lodge , in a national park , watching elephants and tigers etc in their natural habitat.....African countries have done it , cant they do it here?

They could...... If they had animals LEFT in their natural habitat.

They re-introduced game in African game parks then charged a fortune to stay in safari lodges.It worked there.Now they have a thriving tourist industry which they built up from nothing.

[WaiWai]

They re-introduced game in African game parks then charged a fortune to stay in safari lodges.It worked there.Now they have a thriving tourist industry which they built up from nothing.

You can even go and shoot some "game" if you have enough money .