Well, if we still lived at home

ANABOLIC steroids are normally used by bodybuilders, athletes and security guards.

But now, boys as young as 12 are taking these muscle-building substances to make themselves more attractive to girls, reported British paper The Independent.

The worrying thing is that many teenagers who regularly abuse the drugs are unaware that side-effects include smaller testicles, bigger breasts, acne, sterility, and even aggression, experts say.

The Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs wants the British government to target school children in a campaign on the dangers of steroid use.

It is against UK law to import or supply anabolic steroids, which can legally be obtained only on prescription.

But there is a loophole.

One can possess the steroids for personal use - an inconsistency which one member of the drugs panel described as illogical.

Sports administrators fear there will be a boom in steroid use in the run-up to the Olympic Games in London in 2012.

Lord Adebowale, a member of the advisory council, told a meeting last week: 'I am concerned by the lack of information about the risks they face in using them. This stuff isn't being used just by people who want to be athletes, but by people who want to be in boy bands and get girls.'

Professor Sir Michael Rawlins, the council's chairman, said steroids could make the testicles wither and cause acne, sterility and a form of breast enlargement.

He added: 'Even more worryingly, there is emerging evidence that anabolic steroids cause aggression. I'm really very worried about that.'

ROID RAGE

Just five months ago, US wrestler Chris Benoit killed his wife and 7-year-old son before hanging himself with the cable of a weight machine.

Anabolic steroids were found in his body and home, raising questions about whether the drugs played a role in the killings.

Some experts believe that steroids can cause paranoia, depression and violent outbursts known as 'roid rage'.

Benoit's body contained 10 times the normal level of testosterone, which appeared to have been injected shortly before he died. They also found traces of anti-anxiety drug Xanax and painkiller hydrocone.

Sir Rawlins added: 'This is a very serious potential problem way, way outside the elite athletes. It's our children we're talking about.'

The advisory council, which was holding its first meeting in public since it was set up in 1971, is considering the legal status of a list of 26 steroids and other substances which are not banned in Britain.

Would we be the same?

We all know it is not that hard to meet a woman, but if we were at home, how hard would it be? I am a young guy, and am still good looking (I think), I would have no chance at 32 to meet a young sexy girl back in Perth, is this creeping down to our youth?

I know the only way I can I meet woman is via casual meetings at various places, but what about my friend in Perth?

He is 35, good body, not a big income and single...Does he have a future?

I do, because I know if I am totally lonely I can go to Singas and spend a while at Orchard Towers and come away with a girl who want to improve her life, what about my mate back home?

sorry love but what has that article got to do with western women apart from silly western boys/men thinking they need to take steriods to be more attractive to them???.

As for the rest of it, well it is quite normal for western men & women to hook up, date, get married & have kids so where is the problem?? I am sure that unless he is a total wanke_r or socially inept that he could do the same. But just cause you may prefer to go the easier route of "go to Singas and spend a while at Orchard Towers and come away with a girl who want to improve her life" which I presume you to mean having to put in no real effort apart from financial that it is wrong that your friend has to make some form of effort to woo a women in the normal sense.!!!

Sorry, I just don't see where you are trying to go with this thread apart from blame the fact that your mate can't get laid on western women, for being western I suppose & not having to drop knickers at the first bloke who throws a bit of money at them???? V V confused.

Dunno what the article about steroids has got to do with it, but going by the title I most definately have to say yes! or er no!

Watch out Boo's about.. Hi Boo!

Hi

Women period, are driving me insane. Western, eastern...northern, but then again, it's not a far drive.

I dunno.

For once - or one of the few times - I must agree with Boo's sentiments.

But that's only cos I'm taking steroidds to make me more attractive to Boo.

Only kidding!

Western kids these days are more buffed than when I was their age (10 yrs ago)

I'm seeing it since I returned to the UK and am serving a large segment of the student society in my job.

They've - for a large part of them anyway - worked out a lot.

I wonder if this doesn't have anything to do with the celebrity culture that the west celebrates so much.

Personally, I've got little fashion sense, don't groom myself aside from nails, teef. Rarely shave but keep whatever growth I have in check and tidy.

I'm not buffed up, fairly skinny and unfit. Oh, and I usually drink too much.

But I got a great sense of humour and a way with people, so i don't ever really lack for company, female or male.

I was reading yesterday about how Britain (read: some poll or think tank) and the US think that their youth 18-35, whereas once upon a time they'd relax for their holidays, taking in sleep, some pleasant but not wild evenings, sun and relaxation, nowadays, after working too many hours per week for months on end, now take very expensive holidays to exotic places where they can do drugs, drink to excess any time of the day or night, in short live it up (in the process exhausting themselves even more).

The principal of Work Hard, Play Harder.

This concerns me, but the point of the article was that they are following the celebrity culture. Spending fortunes on making themselves stylish, then living it up like a modern day celebrity (as opposed to my style of living it up like an ol' fashioned none too well-off rock'n'roll star )

And so I wonder if that has some bearing..

Steroid use is ultimately down to one thing, personal choice. As far as I can see, most men that are classified as desirable by women are fit but not bulky body-builder types.

I bet in terms of looks, most women would pick Brad Pitt, Nicholas Cage or Johnny Depp over Arnold Schwarzenegger, Steven Seagal etc.

Absolutely right, Meadish ..... and Boo. I think the title is a study in sensationalist, tabloid headlining.

uhm, in particular Brad Pitt in Troy, btw, if you were asking. But, even a scruffy Johnny Depp in Chocolat will do quite nicely.

Getting back to the original question (just the question - not the surplussage), then in my opinion nothing has changed; they have always driven us crazy. One thing, though - you need to delete the word 'Western'.

uhm, in particular Brad Pitt in Troy, btw, if you were asking. But, even a scruffy Johnny Depp in Chocolat will do quite nicely.

Brad Pitt probably used steroids to beef up for his role in "Troy"

No western women (or girls) liked him in "Seven Monkeys"

You know, I read that post and thought Tuky shouldn't drink and post at the same time. I then thought I could come up with all sorts of statistics about the rise of anorexia, bulimia and plastic surgery in young girls trying to fit some sort of "perfect woman" image and how that could all be blamed on men and their unrealistic expectations for a size 0 woman with a DD cup.

But then I realized something, something that I see all the time on this forum. That is, everything that goes wrong is someone else's fault. The blame game seems to be the way of life these days.

What ever happened to the idea of personal responsibility? I am the only one who is responsible for the choices I make in my life. Sure I can make bad choices and be unhappy or I can make good choices and be happy.

I thought of my mother who, as some of you may know, recently passed away. It was sudden, unexpected and devastating. I found myself wallowing in my own self-pity and sorrow and had to remember that that is the last thing my mother would have done herself.

She faced every kind of hardship; radical hysterectomy at 35, breast cancer and the subsequent radical mastectomy and radiation therapy at 41. She was taken off the hormones from the hysterectomy at that time and went through instant and total menopause. She then had breast cancer and another mastectomy and chemotherapy 12 years later. Followed by a heart attack and open heart surgery 4 years after that. She had severe osteoporosis due to the chemo and radiation, fell and broke her hip about 5 years ago. You name it, she had it done to her.

And through it all she maintained that she was the only one who was responsible for the happiness or unhappiness of her life. She did not wallow in self-pity, she did not blame her bad genes, her doctors or anyone else. She did not look to her husband or her children to give her her happiness. She lived her life knowing that SHE was the only one responsible for her own happiness. And she was happy. She touched everyone she knew with her love, kindness and generosity of spirit. She faced life with a positive outlook and although her body let her down, when she died she knew she was loved, cherished and respected.

It is up to each one of us to take responsibility for our own lives and how they turn out. If you don't like the way your life is then take a good long hard look at yourself and your attitude first instead of blaming everyone and everything around you.

//Rant over//

Well, if we still lived at home Would we be the same?

I am a young guy, and am still good looking (I think), I would have no chance at 32 to meet a young sexy girl back in Perth, is this creeping down to our youth?

young guy and good looking but no chance? huh? i dont know where you get your ideas from really

but what about my friend in Perth? He is 35, good body, not a big income and single...Does he have a future?

whats this... a hidden agenda post? advertising for your mate? well if hes single.....ask him to move to Sydney

but on a more serious note..... as a woman with lotssssss of female friends all over the world...many still single....and good looking I must add (and nah not advertising ) anyhow...I think I can speak on behalf of most of them and say that it has nothing to do with the big muscles. some guys with fit bodies certainly will get attention, but that does not mean others have no chance. for most of us, without wanting to sound cliche.... its more to do with intellectual connection. and with that....a sense of humour is always another important ingredient. other than that...about respect for each other.

Id rather have a guy without muscles, than one that is obsessed with wanting to make his body look good.

Their driving is insane, not driving us insane!

You know, I read that post and thought Tuky shouldn't drink and post at the same time. I then thought I could come up with all sorts of statistics about the rise of anorexia, bulimia and plastic surgery in young girls trying to fit some sort of "perfect woman" image and how that could all be blamed on men and their unrealistic expectations for a size 0 woman with a DD cup.

But then I realized something, something that I see all the time on this forum. That is, everything that goes wrong is someone else's fault. The blame game seems to be the way of life these days.

What ever happened to the idea of personal responsibility? I am the only one who is responsible for the choices I make in my life. Sure I can make bad choices and be unhappy or I can make good choices and be happy.

I thought of my mother who, as some of you may know, recently passed away. It was sudden, unexpected and devastating. I found myself wallowing in my own self-pity and sorrow and had to remember that that is the last thing my mother would have done herself.

She faced every kind of hardship; radical hysterectomy at 35, breast cancer and the subsequent radical mastectomy and radiation therapy at 41. She was taken off the hormones from the hysterectomy at that time and went through instant and total menopause. She then had breast cancer and another mastectomy and chemotherapy 12 years later. Followed by a heart attack and open heart surgery 4 years after that. She had severe osteoporosis due to the chemo and radiation, fell and broke her hip about 5 years ago. You name it, she had it done to her.

And through it all she maintained that she was the only one who was responsible for the happiness or unhappiness of her life. She did not wallow in self-pity, she did not blame her bad genes, her doctors or anyone else. She did not look to her husband or her children to give her her happiness. She lived her life knowing that SHE was the only one responsible for her own happiness. And she was happy. She touched everyone she knew with her love, kindness and generosity of spirit. She faced life with a positive outlook and although her body let her down, when she died she knew she was loved, cherished and respected.

It is up to each one of us to take responsibility for our own lives and how they turn out. If you don't like the way your life is then take a good long hard look at yourself and your attitude first instead of blaming everyone and everything around you.

//Rant over//

Good Post Sbk. Excellent, actually.

I'm sorry to hear about your mother. You have my condolences.

Responsibility: We do live in a world where increasingly, Personal responsibility seems to be becoming a thing of the past. A footnote in history. Perhaps it's all the lawsuits that keep sprouting up - many of which are totally ridiculous, like the famous McDonald's drive thru lady who scalded herself with the hot coffee she hed between her thighs as she passed over a speed bump, or the lady who famously sued a furniture shop after she tripped over her own son.

Doctors in the west and particularly the states have been hardest hit by this.

One friend of my dad, a GP in Santa Monica for twenty years, moved to Hawaii and became a Vet in the early nineties, for fears that he might get sued for doing his job.

Everybody's looking for someone to blame for their own problems, and the blame game has hit England too.

I work in Hospitality, Catering, Bartending. You can't do your job properly anymore for all the WAY TOO OVER THE TOP health & Safety issues. Result, everything is becoming bloody generic, bland, and uninspired, and all the good outlets of a decade ago (when I was last here) have now become identi-kit places run by a head office in Atlanta Georgia, or Seattle, or whatever.

Woah! sorry, drifting a bit here, but yeah, Personal Responsibility.

Thailand and her people say it best when they say, "Som Nom Na".

Unless you have something special going for like being a one in fifty hunk, a top notch comedian, footy player on the A list, TV personality or some high profile career such as rockstar DJ (such as moi in a previous life)....

It is next to impossible for a normal, average guy to get laid or his rocks off on a regular basis in Australia without a steady girlfriend, most have to be going to see mrs palmer or to the local hookers. Most twenty somethings need to relieve their fluid build up at least four to five times a week, what choice does a guy have?

Sure he might score once in a while, but without puting in months of work to find a steady (read boring) girl who's only interest is a three minute missionary style - "ahh there there, thats a good boy finished allready" type who would call the police if you suggested a threesome in the tub with one of her (prettier) friends & a few arousal tools.

What choices does the average bloke have.

Easiest one is to buff up & roids being a dime a dozen in the local gyms are easily purchased by those wishing to enhance their performance.

Not an easy choice for most....

You know, I read that post and thought Tuky shouldn't drink and post at the same time. I then thought I could come up with all sorts of statistics about the rise of anorexia, bulimia and plastic surgery in young girls trying to fit some sort of "perfect woman" image and how that could all be blamed on men and their unrealistic expectations for a size 0 woman with a DD cup.

But then I realized something, something that I see all the time on this forum. That is, everything that goes wrong is someone else's fault. The blame game seems to be the way of life these days.

What ever happened to the idea of personal responsibility? I am the only one who is responsible for the choices I make in my life. Sure I can make bad choices and be unhappy or I can make good choices and be happy.

I thought of my mother who, as some of you may know, recently passed away. It was sudden, unexpected and devastating. I found myself wallowing in my own self-pity and sorrow and had to remember that that is the last thing my mother would have done herself.

She faced every kind of hardship; radical hysterectomy at 35, breast cancer and the subsequent radical mastectomy and radiation therapy at 41. She was taken off the hormones from the hysterectomy at that time and went through instant and total menopause. She then had breast cancer and another mastectomy and chemotherapy 12 years later. Followed by a heart attack and open heart surgery 4 years after that. She had severe osteoporosis due to the chemo and radiation, fell and broke her hip about 5 years ago. You name it, she had it done to her.

And through it all she maintained that she was the only one who was responsible for the happiness or unhappiness of her life. She did not wallow in self-pity, she did not blame her bad genes, her doctors or anyone else. She did not look to her husband or her children to give her her happiness. She lived her life knowing that SHE was the only one responsible for her own happiness. And she was happy. She touched everyone she knew with her love, kindness and generosity of spirit. She faced life with a positive outlook and although her body let her down, when she died she knew she was loved, cherished and respected.

It is up to each one of us to take responsibility for our own lives and how they turn out. If you don't like the way your life is then take a good long hard look at yourself and your attitude first instead of blaming everyone and everything around you.

//Rant over//

YES, SBK - a thousand times - YES. I'm so very sorry to hear about your mom. She sounded like a beautiful spirit, which I'm sure will go on to inspire people whether she walking the earth or not.

Unless you have something special going for like being a one in fifty hunk, a top notch comedian, footy player on the A list, TV personality or some high profile career such as rockstar DJ (such as moi in a previous life)....

It is next to impossible for a normal, average guy to get laid or his rocks off on a regular basis in Australia without a steady girlfriend, most have to be going to see mrs palmer or to the local hookers. Most twenty somethings need to relieve their fluid build up at least four to five times a week, what choice does a guy have?

Sure he might score once in a while, but without puting in months of work to find a steady (read boring) girl who's only interest is a three minute missionary style - "ahh there there, thats a good boy finished allready" type who would call the police if you suggested a threesome in the tub with one of her (prettier) friends & a few arousal tools.

What choices does the average bloke have.

Easiest one is to buff up & roids being a dime a dozen in the local gyms are easily purchased by those wishing to enhance their performance.

Not an easy choice for most....

That is such a load of crap. If he's got nothing to offer either intellectually, spiritually, or physically (read boring), why does he think he is entitled to anything different? That in and of itself is why he isn't hooking up with anyone interesting; all the interesting and hot chicks have choices, and most know better now than to hook up with self-entitled boors.

That is such a load of crap. If he's got nothing to offer either intellectually, spiritually, or physically (read boring), why does he think he is entitled to anything different? That in and of itself is why he isn't hooking up with anyone interesting; all the interesting and hot chicks have choices, and most know better now than to hook up with self-entitled boors.

Fair enough. There are always two sides to a coin. But let me ask you this:

If you were a plain Jane type girl, not downright ugly, however, not much going for you - How hard would it be to pick up a "one night stand"? Not hard at all.

other side of the coin.

If you are a plain Jim type boy, not downright ugly, however, not much going for you - How hard would it be to pick up a "one night stand"? Almost imposible without parting with lots of money.

I have only based my comments on watching the dating game played out in front of me five nights per week for twelve years.

Girls can get laid easily. Guys have to go the hard yards.

Although probably not the appropriate thread...

SBK - sorry for your loss & am glad to see you have put your life back in some semblence of order with a positive outlook for the future.

It does begin with one's self & that is where the buck stops in all situations.

Be happy.

I dunno. Being a bartender probably, no CERTAINLY, helps my cause, but I rarely have any difficulty.

When I'm not working, or when I am somewhere new and a punter in the bar, then it gets more tricky, read: expensive. Often. But not always.

It depends on my mood. I'm just a regular Joe, but I've been around the block a few times, and got stories to tell.

When I feel confident and happy enough with myself, regardless of my ever fluctuating income; When I've had some extra cash I'll happily spend it ona good night out, and happily invite people drinks and/or day outings, what not...AND I've had girlfriends (short term) in the past that have shelled out for me when I've been poor, and have done so from the day/night we met, Why? Because I've entertained them, had stories to tell, and told them in an entertaining manner. I've been gentlemanly in public, and fun in the sack. Some girls have taught me new tricks, I've taught some girls new tricks, and I've rarely met a girl who is shy in bed when she is comfortable with the man.

Another thing, though, is that of the issue of Bar/Club life.

In our Western countries they are prowling grounds, for men and women alike. The "Nicer" girls/guys are less likely to meet other "Nicer" guys/gals here because, certainly in the West, the "alert radar" is on. This is territory of the "good time, no inhibition" folk.

You want to meet a nice girl/guy, have a wander around Boots, or Debenhams, or some generic coffee place, in the day time. Even your village market. You'll stand a much better chance.

That is such a load of crap. If he's got nothing to offer either intellectually, spiritually, or physically (read boring), why does he think he is entitled to anything different? That in and of itself is why he isn't hooking up with anyone interesting; all the interesting and hot chicks have choices, and most know better now than to hook up with self-entitled boors.

Fair enough. There are always two sides to a coin. But let me ask you this:

If you were a plain Jane type girl, not downright ugly, however, not much going for you - How hard would it be to pick up a "one night stand"? Not hard at all.

other side of the coin.

If you are a plain Jim type boy, not downright ugly, however, not much going for you - How hard would it be to pick up a "one night stand"? Almost imposible without parting with lots of money.

I have only based my comments on watching the dating game played out in front of me five nights per week for twelve years.

Girls can get laid easily. Guys have to go the hard yards.

SM:

I hardly think picking up one night stands for the rest of your life is hardly a consolation prize. If you "don't have much" going for you, then get something started! If you are shallow and only interested in women as objects and body parts, then you will be a victim of that shallowness by the people you can and cannot attract.

If you are smart, athletic, charismatic, and have stories to tell (I didn't use rich, because that would be too easy as we know; see the above shallow people), as a man the playing field will be much more widely open to you than for a woman. For females, no matter how smart, charismatic, etc., we are still largely judged by our looks and age, much, MUCH more so than men. I see very attractive women all the time with a lot more going for themselves than looks alone, who are with men less attractive and even less successful. But, he has SOMETHING that she wants or keeps her interested, and it isn't just money for those women. Is he smart, is he educated, does he think and talk about relevant things, does he have character, does he see and value her for the woman she is, does he make her laugh, does he make her feel both shy and strong .... I mean, so many variables and elements to an attractive man.

I'm sorry you don't realize this. Even more so, I'm sorry that some of you don't know or respect women enough to understand it.

This is a weird thread... are we discussing Tuk's friend who can't get a pick up/girlfriend/one night stand???

Thank you for the condolences, she was a terrific woman.

But that wasn't really the point of my post.

It is time to stop blaming everything around you for what is going wrong in your life and take a good hard look at yourself (whoever you may be) to see why you only attract shallow women, or no women at all (or men, whatever the case may be). Or why every relationship ends up bad.

I get told how lucky I am all the time because I met a nice, decent honest Thai man. Well you know what? The only luck involved was meeting him in the first place with him coming from one side of the world and me another. But the fact is I care too much about myself to put up with someone who is dishonest, who treats me badly. I am worth a decent person. And because I have that attitude I never took up with sleazy guys who treated me like dirt. And its not because of my looks or my weight or anything else.

Its called standards, its called personal responsibility.

Responsibility is one area SBK, another is presentation. Obviously being gifted in the looks department helps somewhat, but everyone can pay a bit of attention to the way you appear.

Might sound like a silly analogy, but when DJ'ing around clubs in BKK I found one thing consistent - if I didn't put any visible effort into it, neither did the crowd. The difference in reaction between my on and off days was extremely noticeable. The more you put in, the more you get out - etcetera...

The same goes for all walks of life. If you enter the dating game expecting to get knocked down, then that's more than likely what's going to happen.

Blame Twiggy ...... she started it all.

Now there was me thinking it was Eve ?............Adam and Twiggy ?

Re personal responsibility : fine for informed, adjusted adults (though I expect we are all influenced by social forces beyond our individual control).

However, the article is talking about teenagers and "boys as young as 12". I read somewhere the other day that girls as young as 7 now have eating disorders/body image problems.

We can't really ask kids and teenagers to take full responsibility for their choices, can we ? Clearly the people and institutions and media around them are delivering a powerful message, and they are receiving it. It may be very difficult for them to lose these messages even as adults.

"We" adults need to look at how that is happening and help kids and teenagers develop more resilient self-images, as well as to pay less attention to physical appearance, the latter aspect of life seemingly beginning to overwhelm many other attributes in many places.

I think the personal responsibiltiy was about the friend who can't get a girlfriend & the implied message (well not implied, assume?!) that western women were to blame for it all. Kids will be influenced by the media & by each other. There has always been peer pressure, when i was at school million years ago (so it sometimes feels) a group of girls used to have competitions on who could eat the least, I ended up being a mentor for one of them after her 3 month stint at a eating disorders place. So not a new phenominum but probably more reported nowdays. But I agree with your last paragraph entirely.

As for the posts about how hard blokes have to work to get a girl, umm, thats how it has always been, we have the vaginas, you men want it. You therefore have to have "something" going for you, not money or looks either, if I go by most of the blokes my mates are with, but charm, the ability to laugh, respectfulness. The girls have to make effort too, not just be some vapid brainfree limpit but again, what they have insn't just the obviously looks/killer bod.

Sadly after a while in places like los too many blokes forget that this is normal dating practice the world over & forget that there is a different in winning a girls affection & paying for it.

Funny how we all see different things. Waiwai, I saw an article that talked about kids taking steroids but also about an adult man who chose to take steroids and then murder his wife and child. And then I saw a grown man complaining about how his friend can't get women.

That is what I addressed, the bulk of the post, not the article which, IMO, has very little to do with the post at hand.

And no, 12 is not too young to teach personal responsibility. My sister has been doing it with her son since he could talk.

There has always been peer pressure, when i was at school million years ago (so it sometimes feels) a group of girls used to have competitions on who could eat the least, I ended up being a mentor for one of them after her 3 month stint at a eating disorders place. So not a new phenominum but probably more reported nowdays.

There has always been peer pressure but it has intensified enormously over the decades, especially as it joins forces with media/advertising. What was considered necessary to "keep up" with the peers a few decades ago was vastly simpler than now. A few decades ago it was not common to see 7 y.olds with eating disorders or 12 y.olds on steroids. Even in poorer countries the advertising is pervasive and the messages delivered multiple times daily. This wasn't possible, some decades back, to even remotely the extent it is now. Also, younger markets are increasingly being targeted.

Funny how we all see different things. Waiwai, I saw an article that talked about kids taking steroids but also about an adult man who chose to take steroids and then murder his wife and child. And then I saw a grown man complaining about how his friend can't get women.

That is what I addressed, the bulk of the post, not the article which, IMO, has very little to do with the post at hand.

Yes, it was a bit confusing. I addressed the article, trying to bring the thread back to the issues faced by kids/teens.

And no, 12 is not too young to teach personal responsibility. My sister has been doing it with her son since he could talk.

Of course not too young to teach it ! (I said too young too take full responsibility). But still some kids/teens are very vulnerable, and the pressures are massive, so I think adult society needs to take a good look at the mechanisms behind those pressures.