Lets Reverse Roles For One Minute

[Dingojoe]

Let’s do a role reversal for one minute.

Well with regard to BBC problem and others.

Hypothetical: You are English or German or whatever. In the English case an Arab comes to your country,

In the German case a Turk comes to your country bringing their culture and habits, the Turk not understanding German and the Arab not speaking English.

You are a middle class to poor type person with average job.

The Arab and the Turk are quite rich and wheeling and dealing.

I am not going to go any further with this as the scenarios are many; bottom line is you are angry that they don’t speak the language and have more say than you because they have money and you don’t, and they are getting richer from utilizing your countries system while you work nights cleaning office floors and can barely pay your rent, how do you feel?

Anyway it seems to me that just watching this forum over several months now I have noticed, not with all but some who have been on Samui for some time by the sounds, think that local law will prevail, it will not, talk of bulldozing and the like are out of the question, BBC would be fire bombed quite quickly, we live here cause laws are some what relaxed, but with that you must take the good with the bad if you want to continue to live here, What’s happening at BBC is blatantly wrong by our standards, but Samui was and is in some parts still a village, local people are village people with village mentalities and habits, building a shack on Crown land maybe their “Village Right” well to them, but in any case FARANG are getting richer with their big restaurants and large boats while they are unable to build a shack on their own countries King’s beach.

With all this considered I would like to also discuss the word FARANG and where it came from, this may have been discussed before long before I arrived here 5 years ago, is there are any people in the Forum who could give me a true account of where the word came from and what it actually means, Thai people know the true translation but don’t like to say, now lets be honest and candid with this word Farang, what I have been told is that its not a very nice word if translated correctly, derived from when the nasty French people came to Thailand to unsuccessfully try to conquer the country.

I am not trying to make enemies here but just trying to give the other side of some stories that come up from time to time. It just seems to me that some Samui people have an embedded mentality on some FARANG because no doubt there are FARANG who think they own this country and its people and look down on them. Definately not Mark from BBC in this case.

BBC dilemma is a sad story but we all need to look even just briefly at the other side and why? I know Mark and he is a decent guy very nice person and has worked hard to get where he has got sure, and it is a shame he can’t relax at this time in his life.

Be interested in some comments especially on the FARANG real meaning, and it does not just mean Foreigner.

[malcolmswaine]

It’s a small world Dingo, we all have to adapt to each other, regardless of where we're from. We all have the choice to change. We are all responsible for our own circumstance.

Maybe more understanding and less farang bashing would be in order?

[Boo]

if the senario you gave happened & similar situation occured in europe then the foreign person would have every right to do as BBC has done, go to the police, make a complaint & expect that the law will protect him, his thai wife & thai children. The UK or German would still be as ignorant & bigoted as the thai family in this case if it happened in Euope as per your senario so I don't see the point of the argument. BBC have legally purchased land, have a legal business & live within the law the wife & children are also thai citizens but not from samui but why should this thai family be allowed to bully & mock them & flaunt the law of the land just becuase they are ignorant & local.??

The only difference in the op senario is the foreign person in Europe would have had this resolved by the courts or police already IMO.

[Dingojoe]

if the senario you gave happened & similar situation occured in europe then the foreign person would have every right to do as BBC has done, go to the police, make a complaint & expect that the law will protect him, his thai wife & thai children. The UK or German would still be as ignorant & bigoted as the thai family in this case if it happened in Euope as per your senario so I don't see the point of the argument. BBC have legally purchased land, have a legal business & live within the law the wife & children are also thai citizens but not from samui but why should this thai family be allowed to bully & mock them & flaunt the law of the land just becuase they are ignorant & local.??

The only difference in the op senario is the foreign person in Europe would have had this resolved by the courts or police already IMO.

This is my point, this is not Europe,

law and order is not here as it is in Europe.

And in most cases the German and the Brit would say kick those ugly farang out of my country as they do with the Turk and Paki for example. Your saying Village local people must change?

[Dingojoe]

It's a small world Dingo, we all have to adapt to each other, regardless of where we're from. We all have the choice to change. We are all responsible for our own circumstance.

Maybe more understanding and less farang bashing would be in order?

Yes it is a small world, shame we cant get it together, it may take several hundred more years, if we get that far.

[kdvsn]

if the senario you gave happened & similar situation occured in europe then the foreign person would have every right to do as BBC has done, go to the police, make a complaint & expect that the law will protect him, his thai wife & thai children. The UK or German would still be as ignorant & bigoted as the thai family in this case if it happened in Euope as per your senario so I don't see the point of the argument. BBC have legally purchased land, have a legal business & live within the law the wife & children are also thai citizens but not from samui but why should this thai family be allowed to bully & mock them & flaunt the law of the land just becuase they are ignorant & local.??

The only difference in the op senario is the foreign person in Europe would have had this resolved by the courts or police already IMO.

This is my point, this is not Europe,

law and order is not here as it is in Europe.

And in most cases the German and the Brit would say kick those ugly farang out of my country as they do with the Turk and Paki for example. Your saying Village local people must change?

But would you excuse the behavior of those Germans and Brits as you excuse the behavior of these Thais?

[Mark Wolfe]

Dingojoe wrote:

FARANG are getting richer with their big restaurants and large boats while they are unable to build a shack on their own countries King’s beach.

This is concocting an argument based on falsehood.

Foreigners who do "get richer" and have large boats (seriously, how many foreigners might this be?) do so within the laws of the country -- including visa regulations.

In your sentence above you failed to add a word. It should read: "...they (the locals) are unable to ILLEGALLY build a shack on their own countries (sic) King's beach."

This whole line of reasoning is crap.

[Tony121]

This argument makes no sense, you go to the most expensive parts of london and the big houses are nearly all owned by foreigners. They have made millions of bahts in property values in the last 5 years, if I squatted on the land next to them I would be kicked off.

What you are saying is if your from Samui it's ok to break the law.

[underthebridge]

<quote>

Be interested in some comments especially on the FARANG real meaning, and it does not just mean Foreigner.

<end quote>

I guess "farang" technically means "person from france" as "farangset" means "france" in thai. How it is perceived by thais is another matter - context of usage will be your best clue...

[koheesti]

With all this considered I would like to also discuss the word FARANG and where it came from, this may have been discussed before long before I arrived here 5 years ago, is there are any people in the Forum who could give me a true account of where the word came from and what it actually means, Thai people know the true translation but don't like to say, now lets be honest and candid with this word Farang, what I have been told is that its not a very nice word if translated correctly, derived from when the nasty French people came to Thailand to unsuccessfully try to conquer the country.

There have been at least two LONG threads on the word farang the past month. Seek and yee shall find.

Alternatively, Thaivisa offers their own two cents here: http://www.thaivisa.com/558.0.html

Farang (ฝรั่ง)

Even if you can speak no other words of Thai, most European and American visitors to Thailand will quickly become familiar with the Thai word farang (often mispronounced (even by Thais) as falang.

Farang with a slightly trilled 'r' is the correct pronunciation.) It's basically used to describe caucasians, though African-Americans will sometimes also be known as farang or as farang dam ('black farang'). Farang is also the Thai word for the guava fruit, so you can expect to hear farang eating farang 'jokes' if you happen to purchase any.

Other Asians are generally known by their country of origin (e.g. kon jeen - "Chinese people", kon yee-bpun - "Japanese people"), while people from the Indian Subcontinent are often known as kairk (which translates as "guest"). Kairk is used to describe even fluent Thai speakers of Indian descent who have been living in Thailand for generations and consider themselves as Thai - obviously being referred to as a 'guest' in these circumstances, while not particularly offensive, is not exactly complimentary either.

Some people get very offended at being called farang, but whether it's an insult should or not really depends on the context. A few Thais who are uncomfortable with using it will say kon dtahng bpra-tayt ('people from other countries') instead, but this is still pretty rare. Farang is basically a neutral word, but people who respect you (or who should respect you) will not use it - if you hear a work colleague, for example, refer to you as farang they probably mean it as an insult while a taxi driver or market vendor doing the same is unlikely to mean any offense at all.

[pothai]

As an Europe saying, if you can not stand the heat get out of the kitchen...not like somewhere why live there???

[koheesti]

As an Europe saying, if you can not stand the heat get out of the kitchen...not like somewhere why live there???

What if you like living somewhere but you have bad neighbors?

[ClaudeFeller]

BBC is married to a Thai, he has children, he is paying taxes. Samui peoples are wealthy - compared to 90 % of this country. Thailand has laws and regulations, even hillbillys have to respect them. This specific island is not at all a good example to play a reverse role game.

[Dingojoe]

Dingojoe wrote:

FARANG are getting richer with their big restaurants and large boats while they are unable to build a shack on their own countries King's beach.

This is concocting an argument based on falsehood.

Foreigners who do "get richer" and have large boats (seriously, how many foreigners might this be?) do so within the laws of the country -- including visa regulations.

In your sentence above you failed to add a word. It should read: "...they (the locals) are unable to ILLEGALLY build a shack on their own countries (sic) King's beach."

This whole line of reasoning is crap.

You may have written for a news paper and I can tell this because you do have a way with words.

But if you were a good investigative reporter you would report both sides of the story and find out why these people are doing this whether it be right or wrong. This is not to create an argument as you suggest but to open the eyes of some who don’t know.

And by the way where do you live? Mark BBC has one of the nicest, largest, best positioned restaurants with the best sunsets you will every see and as you look across at the sunset you will see Marks Boat, one of the biggest most luxury boats on the island. But of course this story that I talk about is not wholly about the BBC problem but all others past, present and future.

[Dingojoe]

<quote>

Be interested in some comments especially on the FARANG real meaning, and it does not just mean Foreigner.

<end quote>

I guess "farang" technically means "person from france" as "farangset" means "france" in thai. How it is perceived by thais is another matter - context of usage will be your best clue...

Thanks, and as you say it originally meant French people, and at that time they came to Thailand to take over the country so I would assume that this word in its original context is not a nice word, do we agree.

Any Thai people in this forum agree with this?

[Dingojoe]

With all this considered I would like to also discuss the word FARANG and where it came from, this may have been discussed before long before I arrived here 5 years ago, is there are any people in the Forum who could give me a true account of where the word came from and what it actually means, Thai people know the true translation but don't like to say, now lets be honest and candid with this word Farang, what I have been told is that its not a very nice word if translated correctly, derived from when the nasty French people came to Thailand to unsuccessfully try to conquer the country.

There have been at least two LONG threads on the word farang the past month. Seek and yee shall find.

Alternatively, Thaivisa offers their own two cents here: http://www.thaivisa.com/558.0.html

Farang (ฝรั่ง)

Even if you can speak no other words of Thai, most European and American visitors to Thailand will quickly become familiar with the Thai word farang (often mispronounced (even by Thais) as falang.

Farang with a slightly trilled 'r' is the correct pronunciation.) It's basically used to describe caucasians, though African-Americans will sometimes also be known as farang or as farang dam ('black farang'). Farang is also the Thai word for the guava fruit, so you can expect to hear farang eating farang 'jokes' if you happen to purchase any.

Other Asians are generally known by their country of origin (e.g. kon jeen - "Chinese people", kon yee-bpun - "Japanese people"), while people from the Indian Subcontinent are often known as kairk (which translates as "guest"). Kairk is used to describe even fluent Thai speakers of Indian descent who have been living in Thailand for generations and consider themselves as Thai - obviously being referred to as a 'guest' in these circumstances, while not particularly offensive, is not exactly complimentary either.

Some people get very offended at being called farang, but whether it's an insult should or not really depends on the context. A few Thais who are uncomfortable with using it will say kon dtahng bpra-tayt ('people from other countries') instead, but this is still pretty rare. Farang is basically a neutral word, but people who respect you (or who should respect you) will not use it - if you hear a work colleague, for example, refer to you as farang they probably mean it as an insult while a taxi driver or market vendor doing the same is unlikely to mean any offense at all.

Thanks, seems like this explains it all. and it does seem like its the context you use it in. But after all in its original context it was a nasty word, meaning that for some Thai people it still is?

So if this word can be nasty or disrespectful we are going to continue to get BBC type problems?

Because we are FARANG yes?

[sbk]

<quote>

Be interested in some comments especially on the FARANG real meaning, and it does not just mean Foreigner.

<end quote>

I guess "farang" technically means "person from france" as "farangset" means "france" in thai. How it is perceived by thais is another matter - context of usage will be your best clue...

Thanks, and as you say it originally meant French people, and at that time they came to Thailand to take over the country so I would assume that this word in its original context is not a nice word, do we agree.

Any Thai people in this forum agree with this?

No, it does not have an innately negative context. There was a very extensive thread about this running in the general forum, perhaps you would be better off reading through that first

Do You Hear The Word Farang Used By Thais In A Derogatory Way?

It was closed but I am sure that you can find an answer to your farang question in the 18 pages of posts in that thread.

[Mark Wolfe]

Dingojoe wrote:

But if you were a good investigative reporter you would report both sides of the story and find out why these people are doing this whether it be right or wrong.

True as far as it goes, but you have not investigated anything. You throw out this old chestnut about seeing both sides but imply that the squatters (look up that word, if you will) are somehow justified in breaking the law and in the process infringing on the rights of not only the adjacent neighbors, but others in the community.

Sure, I have wondered, in an abstract way, why people would behave like this. I think this has been explained, more or less, already. The squatters think they have some unwritten right to set up anywhere on the island since at least the patriarch is a native Samuian, and because they know (or have nothing as yet to contradict them) that they can do what they want with impunity.

I don't think it has anything to do with Thai/foreigner relations, as they would build there regardless; the only difference is that if their neighbor was Thai, they would most likely not give a hoot one way or the other.

Sell enough oysters on the half-shell at 60 baht a pop and perhaps one day you too can own a boat....

[Dingojoe]

True as far as it goes, but you have not investigated anything. You throw out this old chestnut about seeing both sides but imply that the squatters (look up that word, if you will) are somehow justified in breaking the law and in the process infringing on the rights of not only the adjacent neighbors, but others in the community.

I am not saying they are justified, what I am saying is that they are justified in their eyes, i dont agree with them at all

just trying to get a handle on why this type of thing happens as often as it does.

Is it just greed?

Is it a total disregard for the law?

Is it that the rich farang is taking and changing my island and I am still poor?

Is it all of the above?

Maybe the law here was just a guide line and no one really worried about such laws until the Farang came, and here we are and here we talk again about European laws and not island Thai laws, (guide lines not real laws to village people).

Bottom line that I am trying to get across is why are the Farang treated like this.

Is it jealousy?

Is it the fact that some farang look down to Thais?

Is it because farang have money that grows on trees and therefore deserve disrespect.

Scenario

So Papa don’t like rich farang on his island by the sounds of things.

Dim and Sons have no regard for the law, its only a guide line in any case- Dim says.

Dim finally gets kicked off the beach, victory for the BBC?

So the Sons story to their children will go something like this-

When I was young and lived with your grandmother the rich farang came bought and raped our beautiful island and also kicked us out of our beautiful house on the beach.

So the story gets worse the farang word changes again.

Has this happened already somewhere before?

[bbcsamui]

Sell enough oysters on the half-shell at 60 baht a pop and perhaps one day you too can own a boat....

Cost of Oyster (can get smaller ones cheaper) THB 20

Wastage (between 15 - 20% for Seafood) THB 4

Condiments (Garlic, chili, herbs etc) THB 4

Cost of plates, cleaning cutlery THB 3

General Overheads (toilets, staff, tablecloths etc 15% ) THB 3

Cost of goods sold THB34

Less BBC member discount (20% about 50% of the time) THB 6

Profit THB20

Less taxes and admin etc (30%) THB 6

Profit per oyster THB14

If boat costs THB10 million (for ease of calculation) we need to sell 714,285 Oysters to pay for boat.

That is 1,956 Oysters a day for a year, or 196 a day for 10 years.

Luckily we sell a few Singhas too.

[Mark Wolfe]

I won't argue with you, or trot out my BS in Business Management (oops...), but some of those costs don't jibe. For example, if you haven't paid off the cost of the cutlery and dishes by now, I wonder if they are solid gold. I can't see how each oyster sold still goes to paying off the dish it is served on.

And a 10 million baht luxury item says you are making a (insert adjective) profit in total. Unless you won it in a game of dominoes....

Having said that, I take umbrage with the other poster casting aspersions on those who are successful enough to own expensive toys. If people are rich/foolish/unconcerned enough to pay 450 baht for a Thai meal at a restaurant with fancy cloth napkins instead of a 150 baht meal at a small Thai-owned and operated shop where the food is either just as good or better, then more fool them. Welcome to capitalism. If you don't want to pay three times the cost of an oyster (and they can be bought for 12/17/20 baht depending on size on the road north outside of Nathon), then buy your own.

And to be on-topic, I think this whole situation comes down to one thing, as I said before:

The neighbors encroach because THEY KNOW THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH IT.

[Prakanong]

<quote>

Be interested in some comments especially on the FARANG real meaning, and it does not just mean Foreigner.

<end quote>

I guess "farang" technically means "person from france" as "farangset" means "france" in thai. How it is perceived by thais is another matter - context of usage will be your best clue...

Ah - that old cherry

Sorry to dissapoint you but Farang does not come from Farangset ie Francais

Look up the etymlogy of the word and not some 90's or before mistaken guidebook

http://thai.hawaii.edu/thaiarc/farang-gwyn/farang2.txt

[kdvsn]

I am not saying they are justified, what I am saying is that they are justified in their eyes, i dont agree with them at all

just trying to get a handle on why this type of thing happens as often as it does.

Is it just greed?

Is it a total disregard for the law?

Is it that the rich farang is taking and changing my island and I am still poor?

Is it all of the above?

Maybe the law here was just a guide line and no one really worried about such laws until the Farang came, and here we are and here we talk again about European laws and not island Thai laws, (guide lines not real laws to village people).

Bottom line that I am trying to get across is why are the Farang treated like this.

Is it jealousy?

Is it the fact that some farang look down to Thais?

Is it because farang have money that grows on trees and therefore deserve disrespect.

Scenario

So Papa don’t like rich farang on his island by the sounds of things.

Dim and Sons have no regard for the law, its only a guide line in any case- Dim says.

Dim finally gets kicked off the beach, victory for the BBC?

So the Sons story to their children will go something like this-

When I was young and lived with your grandmother the rich farang came bought and raped our beautiful island and also kicked us out of our beautiful house on the beach.

So the story gets worse the farang word changes again.

Has this happened already somewhere before?

By any chance are you a timeshare salesman?

[Dingojoe]

<quote>

Be interested in some comments especially on the FARANG real meaning, and it does not just mean Foreigner.

<end quote>

I guess "farang" technically means "person from france" as "farangset" means "france" in thai. How it is perceived by thais is another matter - context of usage will be your best clue...

Ah - that old cherry

Sorry to dissapoint you but Farang does not come from Farangset ie Francais

Look up the etymlogy of the word and not some 90's or before mistaken guidebook

http://thai.hawaii.edu/thaiarc/farang-gwyn/farang2.txt

Very Interesting.

[Dingojoe]

I am not saying they are justified, what I am saying is that they are justified in their eyes, i dont agree with them at all

just trying to get a handle on why this type of thing happens as often as it does.

Is it just greed?

Is it a total disregard for the law?

Is it that the rich farang is taking and changing my island and I am still poor?

Is it all of the above?

Maybe the law here was just a guide line and no one really worried about such laws until the Farang came, and here we are and here we talk again about European laws and not island Thai laws, (guide lines not real laws to village people).

Bottom line that I am trying to get across is why are the Farang treated like this.

Is it jealousy?

Is it the fact that some farang look down to Thais?

Is it because farang have money that grows on trees and therefore deserve disrespect.

Scenario

So Papa don't like rich farang on his island by the sounds of things.

Dim and Sons have no regard for the law, its only a guide line in any case- Dim says.

Dim finally gets kicked off the beach, victory for the BBC?

So the Sons story to their children will go something like this-

When I was young and lived with your grandmother the rich farang came bought and raped our beautiful island and also kicked us out of our beautiful house on the beach.

So the story gets worse the farang word changes again.

Has this happened already somewhere before?

By any chance are you a timeshare salesman?

No way

what makes you say that?

Are you a time share saleswoman?

[Mark Wolfe]

This "farang" stuff is all off-topic, but before it gets deleted, which it should be, I'd like to say that living in Taiwan for 20 I heard a lot of "waigwo ren," which literally translates to: outside country person.

It is a factual reference, not one of distain.

I'd like, however, to see what happens in the US if Caucasians started calling Asians or Middle Eastern people "foreigner."

[pothai]

What if you like living somewhere but you have bad neighbors?...............

Move

[mssabai]

if the senario you gave happened & similar situation occured in europe then the foreign person would have every right to do as BBC has done, go to the police, make a complaint & expect that the law will protect him, his thai wife & thai children. The UK or German would still be as ignorant & bigoted as the thai family in this case if it happened in Euope as per your senario so I don't see the point of the argument. BBC have legally purchased land, have a legal business & live within the law the wife & children are also thai citizens but not from samui but why should this thai family be allowed to bully & mock them & flaunt the law of the land just becuase they are ignorant & local.??

The only difference in the op senario is the foreign person in Europe would have had this resolved by the courts or police already IMO.

This is my point, this is not Europe,

law and order is not here as it is in Europe.

And in most cases the German and the Brit would say kick those ugly farang out of my country as they do with the Turk and Paki for example. Your saying Village local people must change?

Where do you come from that a Turkish or Pakistani person with a legal right to be in the country and own property would be kicked out? BBC OWNS the land - under Thai law. They are not stealing it, they have lawfully bought it. Thai law backs this up. Thai law is made by Thais and not farangs. "village people" (I thought this was a band, but there you go) have to adhere to the law, just like everyone else. How exactly is BBC asking these people to change? They are simply asking them to stop encroaching on their land. They are not asking them to move away from their cultural values or traditional way of live are they, or even move from their "beautiful house on the beach"? I know a lot of people on Samui who may well fit into your "local village people" category and they would never dream of acting in this way, to another Thai or a farang.

A last point, Samui was first inhabited by Hainanese Chinese. Like most islands in the world it has and will experience a migratory community of inhabitants and this should be celebrated.