Australian Aged Pension

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/25/2024 at 3:19 AM, 4MyEgo said:

I would think there would be a question or more in the application form, e.g. have you resided overseas in the last 12 months, if yes, for how long, etc, etc, etc, then I would imagine if you answered no, they would do a check with border control, then your busted.

 

But, they would never check for tax residency purposes, right? 

 

On 9/25/2024 at 3:19 AM, 4MyEgo said:

Why do you think that they have the 2 year rule, it's there to stop people returning to claim the OAP and F off again.

Yes, and a lot of members are unhappy with it, but you can see the tax payers point, right? 

 

On 9/25/2024 at 3:19 AM, 4MyEgo said:

Anyone good with math who doesn't want to live in a caravan or a depressing room for those 2 years, knows the cost on rent doesn't really recoup those 2 years, especially if living in Sydney where a one bedroom unit will set you back more than the OAP.

Only for those who have burnt their bridges back in Australia. 

 

The old golden rule, don't put anything into Thailand you are not prepared to lose.  Many sold up and moved their life saving here, now can't even afford to live in Australia for 2 years. 

 

Guess what, many Aussie expats have kept a property to go back to in Australia, either for their 2 years pension portability phase, or for a serious injury / illness, and even end of life.  

 

Not everyone has sold up back in Australia and moved it all to Thailand / Issan.   

 

Many have planned ahead for their 2 years come pension age, and beyond.  If you didn't, why whinge here? 

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/25/2024 at 3:49 AM, 4MyEgo said:

 

https://www.etax.com.au/aged-pension/

 

Can you show me. ANYWHERE, in that link where it mentions living overseas, full time?  

 

I did like this part though:

 

" Please Note: The information in the above blog post is general in nature and should not be relied upon as detailed advice that applies to everyone. Each person’s individual circumstances will decide whether or not they need to lodge a tax return."

 

Here's the non resident tax bracket.

 

The pension is deemed an income. 

 

The pension is taxable. 

 

You WILL BE outside of Australia for 183 days, thus, a non resident for tax purposes. 

 

Do you see $0 to $135,000? 

 

Can you post a link, from anywhere, showing a old age pensioner does not have to pay non resident tax?  

 

Foreign resident tax rates 2024–25

Taxable income	Tax on this income
0 – $135,000	30c for each $1

[Nemises]

1 hour ago, KhunHeineken said:

So, go on the record.  What pension are you on?  Simple question, really. 

This thread is about the Aus OAP. As for me: I’m soon to (hopefully) obtain the OAP hence my appreciation for the useful information posted by members who have already obtained the OAP or who, like me, are hoping to soon obtain the OAP. 
 

I notice you dominate the posts on here. Most of them (your posts) are either disputed or ignored, as a number of members have black-listed you.
 

So speaking of simple questions, are you on the OAP now or soon to be on the OAP, which one? 
 

 

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, Nemises said:

This thread is about the Aus OAP. As for me: I’m soon to (hopefully) obtain the OAP hence my appreciation for the useful information posted by members who have already obtained the OAP or who, like me, are hoping to soon obtain the OAP. 
 

I notice you dominate the posts on here. Most of them (your posts) are either disputed or ignored, as a number of members have black-listed you.
 

So speaking of simple questions, are you on the OAP now or soon to be on the OAP, which one? 
 

 

Firstly, the question was not put to you. 

 

The question was put to the member Scorecard, who, at various stages has posted he is on a Vet's pension, and then at other stages, has posted he's on the old aged pension, and how kind the Centerlink call center staff are when he makes inquiries about it.  He's also posted a lot about portability, something Vet's don't have a problem with.  In fact, I know a few Vet's in Thailand and had some brief discussions with them about it. 

 

I specifically remember him posting his 2 year stay in Australia for portability was in a Vet's village, and how easy the 2 years was for him because it.

 

So, he's either a Vet, on a Vet's pension, or he's not. 

 

I called him out on it a while ago, and his reply was, "You are on my ignore list."   Funny that.  So, I, and others, smelt BS.  

 

Yet, he has never gone on the record as to, exactly, just what pension he's on, because they are VERY different pensions, with VERY different entitlements.

 

I have posted before I am not on an aged pension.  Posted it months ago. No secret. 

 

I have also posted before I will not receive an aged pension, without shifting assets, and my accountant working some magic.  All legal, of course.  I have no problem admitting after working and paying a lot of tax, I do feel somewhat "entitled" when that day comes. 

 

My post count on this thread is high because a long time ago I got wind of the proposed changes to Australia's 90 year old tax residency laws.  I'm sure you have seen them. 

 

Basically, just like Thailand, Australia is looking to change to a physical presence and time based model, from a "domiciled" model.  

 

I posted those changes and got an avalanche of crazy reasons why it will never happen.  Everything from Paul Hogan, to having a Medicare Card, even Albo has been voted in, so it's never going to happen.  

 

I replied to every serious post, and also every personal attack, baiting, flame, troll, abusive, hate, ridicule etc post, thus, a high post count.  Also got sent on a posting holiday.  

 

As I have said, the proposed changes are the single biggest issue facing members reading this thread, and I stand by that. 

 

What's there to talk about in relation to portability?  Do tell?  It's been done to death. 

 

There was a lot of debate, but at the end of the day, what was established was:

 

1)  The pension is deemed an income.

 

2)  The pension is taxable.

 

3)  Someone who is living in Thailand WILL BE deemed a non resident when the proposed changes are passed.  Many already are anyway, including myself. 

 

4)  The proposed changes have no means testing, thresholds, or exemptions in them.  

 

5)  Non resident tax is 30% from $0 to $135,000.  

 

Members still believe there's nothing to worry about, and that's fine.  I'm just interested in why, with some more substance to their post other than Hoges, Medicare Cards, and Albo.  

 

Indeed, the psychology behind not wanting to consider the possibility these changes will have any impact, whatsoever, was also discussed.  

 

You see, pensioners may get an increase, but the pensioners back home are going backwards.  Eg. electricity, gas, water, rates, food, petrol etc etc.  Nothing that we care about here, because it's cheap living, but the government, who is in record debt, may just want a piece of the non resident tax pie, and that could include pensioners, possibly as collateral damage.  

 

Yet, no one wants to put the jigsaw puzzle with the five things above together to even think it's possible.  

 

We already know Immigration inform Centerlink after 6 weeks out, so supplements are cut off.  Is putting the ATO in that loop such a giant step forward that is too far for a computer to do????

 

The Brit expats get their pension frozen when they leave.  Maybe Australia wants to tax pensions.  Same Same, but different.  Who knows?  

 

What I do know is times are changing, Australia is in record debt, and chasing every dollar they can get.  

 

Members posted, "they will not target pensioners."  I never said expat pensioners will be "targeted."  All I have ever said is they very well may be collateral damage.  

Members posted, "pensioners will be up in arms."  I asked, who went to the Embassy in Bangkok last election and voted.  No reply.  So why would pensioners in Australia give a sh*t about pensioners living it up in Thailand and Bali etc?  

 

So, to summarize, there's been a lot of funny posts put forward why it will not / can not happen, but little in the way of substance as to why, hence, one more post to my count on this thread.     

 

Now, if you can post a reason why all the above five things WILL NOT line up to cause pensioners ANY grief at all, I'm all eyes. 

[Nemises]

5 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

 

 I am not on an aged pension.  

 

 I will not receive an aged pension

That’s all I wanted to know. Didn’t bother reading anything else …and won’t in the future…just like all the other members. 

[KhunHeineken]

1 minute ago, Nemises said:

That’s all I wanted to know. Didn’t bother reading anything else …and won’t in the future…just like all the other members. 

I have no problem with that.

 

Feel free to put me on your ignore list. 

 

It makes it easier for those who want to seriously discuss the issue. 

 

Funny thing is though, YOU are not on the aged pension either.  

[scorecard]

12 minutes ago, Nemises said:

That’s all I wanted to know. Didn’t bother reading anything else …and won’t in the future…just like all the other members. 

K.Heinekin just posted a long comment about me. As usual full of mistakes. Just one example, Aussies war vets receiving a permanent disability compensation payment can elect to have the compensation payment automatically transferred to a thai bank. I've been doing that for many years.

[KhunHeineken]

7 minutes ago, scorecard said:

K.Heinekin just posted a long comment about me. As usual full of mistakes. Just one example, Aussies war vets receiving a permanent disability compensation payment can elect to have the compensation payment automatically transferred to a thai bank. I've been doing that for many years.

Can you quote me where I have said any other that????  Banks accounts and automatic transfers.  Huh???? 

 

Go on the record. 

 

What pension are you on????

[Nemises]

37 minutes ago, scorecard said:

K.Heinekin just posted a long comment about me. As usual full of mistakes.

The guy has no intention of ever going on the OAP. So do what others have done…give him no oxygen. 

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, Nemises said:

The guy has no intention of ever going on the OAP. So do what others have done…give him no oxygen. 

Already on my ignore list for some time.

[Captain Flack]

I have removed a couple of bickering posts about reporting others.

 

It is not my role to censor opinions, if you disagree then debate in the topic, as the report button is not to score points against other or for use as a threat in the discussion.

[ElwoodP]

Reported post removed along with the post inviting it. Calling someone a troll will understandably bring a negative response.

@Lacessit don't do it!

[Nemises]

1 hour ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

For someone who is not on the Age Pension …

 

Why would one even bother posting on this topic…

Probably out of jealousy... “If I can’t get this free money, than I’ll harass and spread fear (taxes, DTA etc) amongst those that do”

[Pattaya57]

44 minutes ago, Nemises said:

Probably out of jealousy... “If I can’t get this free money, than I’ll harass and spread fear (taxes, DTA etc) amongst those that do”

I think he's just delusional. He actually thinks proposed tax rules are valid and that the ATO is going to set up an international task force to catch a few old pensioners living in Thailand on aged pension 😉

[Will27]

14 minutes ago, Pattaya57 said:

I think he's just delusional. He actually thinks proposed tax rules are valid and that the ATO is going to set up an international task force to catch a few old pensioners living in Thailand on aged pension 😉

Also apparently thinks Immigration will send the ATO every movement in and out of Australia of its citizens/residents so they can check residency status.

 

That would be a small job........

[scorecard]

3 hours ago, Pattaya57 said:

I think he's just delusional. He actually thinks proposed tax rules are valid and that the ATO is going to set up an international task force to catch a few old pensioners living in Thailand on aged pension 😉

 

Could be true but he's ignoring that:

 

- Aussies can have their OAP transferred directly from C'link to a bank account in Thailand or any country by international bank transfer, instantaneous transfer and the banking costs are extremely small. e.g. 120Baht.

- The funds are not subject to tax or checking by the Aust Tax office.

- There is no checking by the ATO re resident / non-resident   /   six months here / six months there.

- Thai personal taxation provides several allowances which reduce the annual taxable amount and if the person is 80 year old or more the annual taxable amount is very low, especially if the person has no other income and in fact there's no Thai tax payable. 

- The final taxable amount in Thailand is not checked e resident / non-resident   /   six months here / six months there. 

 

[scorecard]

3 hours ago, Will27 said:

Also apparently thinks Immigration will send the ATO every movement in and out of Australia of its citizens/residents so they can check residency status.

 

That would be a small job........

 Actually the checking of movements is computerized. there's a live 24/7 link between Australia immigration and C'link, every passport entry is advised automatically by the live link to C.link.

 

If it matches a passport number in the OAP records then an entry 'out' / 'in' goes automatically onto the C'link file for that person. 

 

All online, always up to date. 

 

I asked a few years ago if there's any similar online link between Immigration and the ATO.  The answer was strongly 'NO, because that would be breaking the law'.

 

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/30/2024 at 10:12 AM, scorecard said:

 Actually the checking of movements is computerized. there's a live 24/7 link between Australia immigration and C'link, every passport entry is advised automatically by the live link to C.link.

 

If it matches a passport number in the OAP records then an entry 'out' / 'in' goes automatically onto the C'link file for that person. 

 

All online, always up to date. 

 

I asked a few years ago if there's any similar online link between Immigration and the ATO.  The answer was strongly 'NO, because that would be breaking the law'.

 

That's why the laws are changing. 

 

Like I have said in the past, Centerlink is the payer, and can also be the taxer / withholder.  Computers will do it all.  

 

It already happens when a pensioner is outside of Australia for 6 weeks.  Supplements are cut off.  No giant leap forward to withhold 30% non resident tax, in the same way the supplements are cut off. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/30/2024 at 10:08 AM, scorecard said:

Aussies can have their OAP transferred directly from C'link to a bank account in Thailand or any country by international bank transfer, instantaneous transfer and the banking costs are extremely small. e.g. 120Baht.

Yes, but what is the relevancy of this comment?  You will still be able to have it transferred, but it MAY be 30% less money. 

 

On 9/30/2024 at 10:08 AM, scorecard said:

The funds are not subject to tax or checking by the Aust Tax office

That's because many people are using the "domiciled" and "intention" loop hole.  That loop hole will close when the new laws are passed. 

 

On 9/30/2024 at 10:08 AM, scorecard said:

There is no checking by the ATO re resident / non-resident   /   six months here / six months there.

The proposed changes are exactly that, 183 days in or out.  Once again, you are talking about the current situation, not the proposed changes. 

 

On 9/30/2024 at 10:08 AM, scorecard said:

Thai personal taxation provides several allowances which reduce the annual taxable amount and if the person is 80 year old or more the annual taxable amount is very low, especially if the person has no other income and in fact there's no Thai tax payable. 

Losing 30% of your Aussie pension, the Thai tax is the least of your problems. 

 

On 9/30/2024 at 10:08 AM, scorecard said:

The final taxable amount in Thailand is not checked e resident / non-resident   /   six months here / six months there. 

Once again, 30% is a lot of tax.  Thai tax is nothing compared to what Australia MAY be finally able to tax you as a non tax resident in the future.

 

Times, and laws, are changing.

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/30/2024 at 6:45 AM, Will27 said:

Also apparently thinks Immigration will send the ATO every movement in and out of Australia of its citizens/residents so they can check residency status.

 

That would be a small job........

No, just your total number of days in / out within a financial year. 

 

Thai immigration know it, that's why it's called "overstay" if you go over, yet, YOU seem to think Australia is incapable of having a computer data base that can do the same. 

[cdnvic]

I've removed much of a pointless personal argument. This topic is important information to many of our readers and if we have to remove those making trouble in order to keep it readable, we will.

 

There will be no further warnings. Actions will be taken if the argument restarts.

[Artisi]

I for one don't see what the argument is about.

Currently, if the taxation department know you are a non resident and are interested in your situation, you are liable to have your pension taxed at 30 odd percent - there is no argument there, that's an old and established provision in the taxation rules.

Luckily for the majority of expats this isn't currently enforced: however there is a proposal on the books to enforce it, how, when or whether this is passed and becomes the norm we currently don't know. 

 

So, where is the argument - as an expat you are currently liable to pay this, although as stated it is ignored by the expats and the tax department don't seem to chase it up, however plans are in motion to change this - maybe it will happen, maybe not. 

Time will tell, in the meantime, relax, enjoy your morning coffee, consider what the ramifications might be if the rules change or simply ignore it and hope for the best. 

 

[LosLobo]

38 minutes ago, Artisi said:

I for one don't see what the argument is about.

Currently, if the taxation department know you are a non resident and are interested in your situation, you are liable to have your pension taxed at 30 odd percent - there is no argument there, that's an old and established provision in the taxation rules.

Luckily for the majority of expats this isn't currently enforced: however there is a proposal on the books to enforce it, how, when or whether this is passed and becomes the norm we currently don't know. 

 

So, where is the argument - as an expat you are currently liable to pay this, although as stated it is ignored by the expats and the tax department don't seem to chase it up, however plans are in motion to change this - maybe it will happen, maybe not. 

Time will tell, in the meantime, relax, enjoy your morning coffee, consider what the ramifications might be if the rules change or simply ignore it and hope for the best. 

 

The issue may not lie in the potential taxation of one's pension, but rather in the 910 times the individual has posted on this topic and the apparent schadenfreude he derives from continuing to do so.

 

This thread, spanning almost two decades, has served as a vital resource or Book of Knowledge on the Aged Pension for Australian expatriates, and it is now inundated with 909 superfluous and needless intrusions.

 

[Nemises]

2 hours ago, Artisi said:

Time will tell, in the meantime, relax, enjoy your morning coffee, consider what the ramifications might be if the rules change or simply ignore it and hope for the best. 

 

Agree 👍 

Be aware, not alarmed comes to mind. 

[Fat is a type of crazy]

2 hours ago, Artisi said:

I for one don't see what the argument is about.

Currently, if the taxation department know you are a non resident and are interested in your situation, you are liable to have your pension taxed at 30 odd percent - there is no argument there, that's an old and established provision in the taxation rules.

Luckily for the majority of expats this isn't currently enforced: however there is a proposal on the books to enforce it, how, when or whether this is passed and becomes the norm we currently don't know. 

 

So, where is the argument - as an expat you are currently liable to pay this, although as stated it is ignored by the expats and the tax department don't seem to chase it up, however plans are in motion to change this - maybe it will happen, maybe not. 

Time will tell, in the meantime, relax, enjoy your morning coffee, consider what the ramifications might be if the rules change or simply ignore it and hope for the best. 

 

Though the age pension is taxable right now -  the proposed new rules are simply a variation of old rules - and their is no proposal as far as I know to enforce taxation or follow it up   - for say age pensioners.  

As has been noted  - but to no effect on the poster - the new rules do not mean that more than 183 days outside makes you a non-resident automatically - so you could not  simply automatically tax at non-resident rates for someone outside for 183 days from say the first year. The scenario it could potentially be possible to tax automatically  - if it ever came to pass - is if you were away for a number of years for a long period each year so clearly a non-resident - but you are a non-resident under current rules too - so nothing new. That's my take on things. 

[KhunHeineken]

3 hours ago, Artisi said:

I for one don't see what the argument is about.

Currently, if the taxation department know you are a non resident and are interested in your situation, you are liable to have your pension taxed at 30 odd percent - there is no argument there, that's an old and established provision in the taxation rules.

Luckily for the majority of expats this isn't currently enforced: however there is a proposal on the books to enforce it, how, when or whether this is passed and becomes the norm we currently don't know. 

It's currently not enforced because the current laws are 90 years old, and based on being "domiciled" in Australia, and one's "intention" to return. 

 

This is why I, and many others, including pensioners, have NEVER paid a cent of non resident tax, when we are clearly non residents, and deriving an income from Australia, and yes, the pension is deemed an income.  It's a huge loop hole. 

 

The proposed changes will close this loop hole for the government, in a way that can not be reviewed, or appealed.  Immigration records showing 183 days in or out, it's will be as simple as that. 

 

3 hours ago, Artisi said:

So, where is the argument - as an expat you are currently liable to pay this, although as stated it is ignored by the expats and the tax department don't seem to chase it up, however plans are in motion to change this - maybe it will happen, maybe not. 

Time will tell, in the meantime, relax, enjoy your morning coffee, consider what the ramifications might be if the rules change or simply ignore it and hope for the best. 

 

Well, there really is no argument.  It's there for all to see. 

 

I posted a list of all the reasons people did argue, the "Paul Hogan, Medicare Card and Albo" posts come to mind.  They have all be debunked though many links, quotes, youtube videos etc, by myself, and other members. 

 

There were even members that were under the belief they still get the tax free threshold as a non resident.  They were also informed that's incorrect. 

 

Can you clarify your stance?  Do you think the proposed changes will be eventually passed?  If passed, do you think Centerlink will automatically withhold 30% of one's pension after 183 days, in the same way they cut off the supplements?  Or, if passed, do you think nothing will happen to pensions?

 

You use the words "consider the ramifications" and that's what this topic is all about, but many put forward humorous reasons for why they think there will be no ramifications at all.  

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, LosLobo said:

The issue may not lie in the potential taxation of one's pension, but rather in the 910 times the individual has posted on this topic and the apparent schadenfreude he derives from continuing to do so.

 

This thread, spanning almost two decades, has served as a vital resource or Book of Knowledge on the Aged Pension for Australian expatriates, and it is now inundated with 909 superfluous and needless intrusions.

 

I've never reported a post, ever, and I never will.  This is something many members have taken advantage of in this thread. 

 

I see even after a general waning from a Mod, you are still baiting me. 

 

My 910 posts on this thread was in response to the avalanche of ridiculous reasons why none of it would ever happen, and how none of it can ever have any impact on them here in Thailand. 

 

In my opinion, this is the single biggest issue facing expat pensioners in decades.  Of course, we can always talk about "portability" again, and again, and again, which has never changed, or, the best phone number for Centerlink again, and again, and again.  

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, Nemises said:

Be aware, not alarmed comes to mind. 

I agree.  It's the same with the Thai tax in 2025.

 

However, "That's just for guys like Paul Hogan" and "I still have a Medicare Card so I am still a tax resident" and "Albo is in now so they will not be passed" and the many other reasons put forward, were not only incorrect, but humorous, yet members truly believed them to be genuine reasons for why nothing COULD ever change for them here. 

 

I remember one member stating, "I don't earn a pension" as for why he believed the pension was not an "income." 

 

The topic has debunked a lot of these false beliefs. 

 

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

Though the age pension is taxable right now -  the proposed new rules are simply a variation of old rules - and their is no proposal as far as I know to enforce taxation or follow it up   - for say age pensioners.  

I agree, but what the proposed changes seemed to be focusing on is enforcement.  It makes it sooooooo easy for them to enforce non resident tax. 

 

One should ask themself "why" focus on enforcement, if they are not going to chase dollars from non residents, including pensioners.

 

1 hour ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

As has been noted  - but to no effect on the poster - the new rules do not mean that more than 183 days outside makes you a non-resident automatically - so you could not  simply automatically tax at non-resident rates for someone outside for 183 days from say the first year. The scenario it could potentially be possible to tax automatically  - if it ever came to pass - is if you were away for a number of years for a long period each year so clearly a non-resident - but you are a non-resident under current rules too - so nothing new. That's my take on things. 

Interesting. 

 

So, in your view, an Aussie expat pensioner, who has not been back to Australia in, say, 5 years, who is clearly a non resident for tax purposes, has nothing to be concerned about.  Is this not the case with the majority of expats?  Many haven't back in years.  This is the demographic we are discussing, not people coming and going from Australia. 

 

I find it interesting that an Aussie pensioner can go to Thailand, not inform Centerlink they are leaving the country, and "automatically" have their supplements cut off after 6 weeks.  This tells me Centerlink is linked to Immigration, does it not?  We have read many account of it happening.  You use the word "automatically."  This is one case of "automatically" having money reduced, yet, many do not consider the same system could be used for non resident pensioners. 

 

Questions:  Are you at all concerned there are no exemptions for pensions mentioned in the proposed changes?  Why do you think pensioners will get a free pass? 

 

I see nothing in the proposed changes exempting any non resident, no matter the size of their income being derived in Australia.  

[Artisi]

27 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Can you clarify your stance?  Do you think the proposed changes will be eventually passed?  If passed, do you think Centerlink will automatically withhold 30% of one's pension after 183 days, in the same way they cut off the supplements?  Or, if passed, do you think nothing will happen to pensions?

 

To that I cannot answer, and neither can anyone else, although many would like to think they know the answer.