Reverse Reverse Discrimination?

[agordon]

I'm possibly going to Thailand to teach soon, and I just wanted to put this out there if there are any people in a similar sort of position, or anyone has seen this kind of situation and could give me their thoughts on it.

We all know racism or stereotypes is prevalent in thai culture, whether positive or negative. For example, I have heard quite a bit of racism enamating toward black people and while getting a teaching job for a native english speaker is not generally hard, many thai schools do not want to hire black teachers. There are also deap seated perceptions of white europeans.

Well, I am a native english speaker. I was born in australia and have australian citizenship but my parents are ethnically thai/chinese. However, I can't speak Thai and I don't consider myself anything but Australian.

I guess its going to be kind of weird. Whenver I go to Asia I am automatically spoken to in whatever language of the country I happen to be in and I have to say I only speak English in this Australian accent.

So my question is whether anyone here is in a similar position, or has seen a similar position. Obviously, I am not going to be discriminated against generally, in fact, I someitmes even get the discounted price for locals - even after I open my mouth. For example, in BKK I paid the local price for a muay thai match while my gf had to pay triple!

So it might be odd to worry about discrimination, but my thinking is that thais may not want to have an asian looking person teaching english, even though I am effectively a native speaker. From their perspective, it would make sense to employ a white european person. I wonder if they would even be able to recognise how well I speak after I open my mouth. Also, the fact that employers require a photo makes me think I am going to get at least a little discrimination, or do you think they would understand I am effectively a native speaker when I see the fact that I have lived in Australia my entire life and have an aussie passport?>

[aussiestyle1983]

You will be discriminated against by most employers. It will take a lot of hard work to find an employer who won't discriminate against you, because let's face it, it's all about face. The school wants the kids parents to see white European looking people, that's how the school attracts more students and profit. Regardless of how good you are, and like I said, you will eventually be rewarded because you are a native speaker, but it will be hard because the school knows they can find someone else with different looks that can bring in more money for the school. You will most likely be offered the same job but with a lower salary to a euro looking farang, but it will be hard and almost impossible for you in Thailand to be treated as equal. Having said that, an ex african american co-worker of mine was employed on the same salary and had the same benefits, but he was racially discriminated against until he quit anyway, but he didn't look asian, he looked different, that's why he thought he got the job. He had to listen to comments like 'you come in the back door after the parents leave', racist stuff like that. Having an Asian look will make most parents think you're Thai of Filipino, and most, not all, schools don't want that look. I know, it's sad. Back here in Aussieland the dicrimination isn't as bad LOL. But yeah, sorry mate, regardless of the hopes you might have or what others say, you will be judged by your looks. My advice is to apply for jobs over the phone and use your accent as a marketing tool. Attend the interview wearing the baggy green. Bring a case of VB with you. Whatever you do, don't send your picture. Man oh man, I miss having to deal with these discrimination issues on a daily basis..............................

I thought I'd add in this post. I was at McDonalds last night and I participated in a long awaited act of revenge on some of the rude Thais here. The Thai people ordering in front of me said something bad in Thai with the word farang to the (Aussie farang) bloke behind the counter serving them, poor young kid just trying to earn a few dollars. I understood and since I was on the drink, I tapped the Thai guy on his shoulder who had the biggest smirk on his face and said "Sorry mate, this is Australia, you are the farang now" He swore at me in Thai and I told him in Thai to come and get me with his " Khee Nok Thai" relatives. He then laughed at me but it looked like he lost face, I said 'No worries mate, you can't lose face in a country that is not face conscious". I'm sure I would have been gunned down if this happened in Thailand, but then again it wouldn't have, because I wouldn't have called a Thai a farang in Thailand! Anyway, the look on his face was pricless! I wish I had a camera with me!

I wish I had a picture of the look on his face, priceless!

Edited January 21, 2008 by aussiestyle1983

[agordon]

dam_n that sucks, makes me wonder if it is even worth it. I think I'll just try to get a job from here first, on paper I probably look alright - got 2 bachelor degrees and I'm going to do a tefl.

If I can't find something reasonable, probably a good sign to not go over there and look for jobs.

[Loaded]

Well, I am a native english speaker. I was born in australia and have australian citizenship but my parents are ethnically thai/chinese. However, I can't speak Thai and I don't consider myself anything but Australian.

The australia part will work against you. Thais have heard about the inbreeding and criminal past plus you can't even say 'hello' (gooddaaaay)

[njpski]

it is G'day

and the old dart exported its best citizens to Australia - the really bad crooks weren't caught lol

[aussiestyle1983]

Well, I am a native english speaker. I was born in australia and have australian citizenship but my parents are ethnically thai/chinese. However, I can't speak Thai and I don't consider myself anything but Australian.

The australia part will work against you. Thais have heard about the inbreeding and criminal past plus you can't even say 'hello' (gooddaaaay)

Good one mate! Sounds like something Shane Warne would say about the poms

You too would inbreed if you had a sister as hot as most aussies have, luckily for me I don't have one (well I did until I married her).......................

[aussiestyle1983]

dam_n that sucks, makes me wonder if it is even worth it. I think I'll just try to get a job from here first, on paper I probably look alright - got 2 bachelor degrees and I'm going to do a tefl.

If I can't find something reasonable, probably a good sign to not go over there and look for jobs.

You're right. You are exactally what schools would be looking for in regards to qualifications, but they will discriminate against looks, especially Asian looks (since asians look like locals). It would help your case to appy from abroad before getting to Thailand, then they would think you are a real native speaker or foreigner, but you still might have to send a pic, at least you'd know where you stand, hopefully you could score a paid airfare. I'd go to Japan, Koran, Taiwan, etc. once you get your TEFL. Better pay and slightly more common sense and fairness. I honestly feel for you dude, the racism and discrimination is out of control in Thailand and the laws are there to protect it. Imagine if you got refused (and you were told word for word) from a job because of your looks in Australia? You would be able to take the <deleted> to court. Good luck in Thailand...............................

[Makyai]

Hi agordon,

Just wanted to share my experience with you.

"Well, I am a native english speaker. I was born in australia and have australian citizenship but my parents are ethnically thai/chinese. However, I can't speak Thai and I don't consider myself anything but Australian."

I am exactly the same as you, lived in Australia for 27 years, and yes there is widespread discrimination throughout the world not just in Thailand. I came to Thailand 7 months ago and I teach English to adults and children. My experiences have been mixed, but not bad. I don't teach at an International School, but rather at the Temple school and a Business English company. I have picked up some Thai, but am not fluent by any means, but I try. The Business English company is owned and operated by a foreigner and I get paid the same as my English and Amercian collegues. My time teaching at the Temple school is more for self satisfaction and to understand why Thai students are the way they are.

What I have found is that the students are intrigued......."you look Thai, but you don't sound it?!?!" This has helped me in classroom situation. I think that if you explored what opportunities are on offer to you, you might be pleasantly surprised. Yes like me you don't think that you are anything but Australian, but you are also Thai. Use this to your advantage rather then think that it is something negative. When you do decide to come to Thailand, obtain your Thai ID card, your Thai passport, a copy of the house register that has your name on it and anything else that can help you.

Being a Thai national, but educated overseas is a wonderful thing. Why do you think most rich families send their children overseas? Hope this has helped you.

Makyai

[agordon]

Hi agordon,

Just wanted to share my experience with you.

"Well, I am a native english speaker. I was born in australia and have australian citizenship but my parents are ethnically thai/chinese. However, I can't speak Thai and I don't consider myself anything but Australian."

I am exactly the same as you, lived in Australia for 27 years, and yes there is widespread discrimination throughout the world not just in Thailand. I came to Thailand 7 months ago and I teach English to adults and children. My experiences have been mixed, but not bad. I don't teach at an International School, but rather at the Temple school and a Business English company. I have picked up some Thai, but am not fluent by any means, but I try. The Business English company is owned and operated by a foreigner and I get paid the same as my English and Amercian collegues. My time teaching at the Temple school is more for self satisfaction and to understand why Thai students are the way they are.

What I have found is that the students are intrigued......."you look Thai, but you don't sound it?!?!" This has helped me in classroom situation. I think that if you explored what opportunities are on offer to you, you might be pleasantly surprised. Yes like me you don't think that you are anything but Australian, but you are also Thai. Use this to your advantage rather then think that it is something negative. When you do decide to come to Thailand, obtain your Thai ID card, your Thai passport, a copy of the house register that has your name on it and anything else that can help you.

Being a Thai national, but educated overseas is a wonderful thing. Why do you think most rich families send their children overseas? Hope this has helped you.

Makyai

Thank you so much for your insight, this was exactly what I was looking for, and I'm glad to see there does actually exist other people in my situation. So did you find any difficulty getting a job/equal pay - did you actually apply for any international or language schools? Because these will probably where I end up working .

I have been thinking being thai may be used to my advantage - I get the feeling some students or thai locals may be apprehensive about approaching a farang, but a little more relaxed around another thai looking person.

[Makyai]

Hello agordon,

I have PM you with some more information.

Makyai

[Ski_Goong]

Hi agordon,

Just wanted to share my experience with you.

"Well, I am a native english speaker. I was born in australia and have australian citizenship but my parents are ethnically thai/chinese. However, I can't speak Thai and I don't consider myself anything but Australian."

I am exactly the same as you, lived in Australia for 27 years, and yes there is widespread discrimination throughout the world not just in Thailand. I came to Thailand 7 months ago and I teach English to adults and children. My experiences have been mixed, but not bad. I don't teach at an International School, but rather at the Temple school and a Business English company. I have picked up some Thai, but am not fluent by any means, but I try. The Business English company is owned and operated by a foreigner and I get paid the same as my English and Amercian collegues. My time teaching at the Temple school is more for self satisfaction and to understand why Thai students are the way they are.

What I have found is that the students are intrigued......."you look Thai, but you don't sound it?!?!" This has helped me in classroom situation. I think that if you explored what opportunities are on offer to you, you might be pleasantly surprised. Yes like me you don't think that you are anything but Australian, but you are also Thai. Use this to your advantage rather then think that it is something negative. When you do decide to come to Thailand, obtain your Thai ID card, your Thai passport, a copy of the house register that has your name on it and anything else that can help you.

Being a Thai national, but educated overseas is a wonderful thing. Why do you think most rich families send their children overseas? Hope this has helped you.

Makyai

Thank you so much for your insight, this was exactly what I was looking for, and I'm glad to see there does actually exist other people in my situation. So did you find any difficulty getting a job/equal pay - did you actually apply for any international or language schools? Because these will probably where I end up working .

I have been thinking being thai may be used to my advantage - I get the feeling some students or thai locals may be apprehensive about approaching a farang, but a little more relaxed around another Thai looking person.

You must get hired by the school first in order to use your "Thainess" to your advantage. I bet you won't like what you find when you apply for jobs in Thailand.

Similar to you, I am Thai but lived in American (and several other parts of the world while serving in the U.S Air force) all my life. I also have similar qualifications as you. When I returned to Thailand last year after retiring from the military, I decided to try to pass on my knowledge and experience to the Thai people. I applied to a few school along with my friend and the results were always the same. We both were offered a position but my pay was much lower than my friend's pay.

So I did what any "insane" person would do-I opened my own "private tutoring service". The business has been great and I make a lot more than my friend now plus I set my own hours. Follow the BM advice-get your Thai ID, Passport,etc so that life in Thailand will be easier for you.

Oh... I do have a leg up on you. I speak fluent Thai

Ajarnski......

Edited January 24, 2008 by Ski_Goong

[Samuian]

being able to communicate with people in their local language is an immense advantage and makes the very difference - anywhere on this planet!

the rest is how each individual is interacting with the society one is living in!

yes there is racism, found even in any European country, because it's the peoples minds and attitudes - not their nationality!

[Makyai]

Hi Ski_Goong,

It's refreshing to know that there are others out there that have had the same type of experiences. I am thinking of "private tutoring service" as well for the very same reason that you mentioned - better money and flexible hours. Are you able to share some information about what you do? I am currently between BKK and upcountry, but would like to be upcountry more as I am not really a city person. We have built a house 2 hours north of BKK and this is where I want to setup an English "school"/private tutoring.

Makyai

[Ski_Goong]

Hi Ski_Goong,

It's refreshing to know that there are others out there that have had the same type of experiences. I am thinking of "private tutoring service" as well for the very same reason that you mentioned - better money and flexible hours. Are you able to share some information about what you do? I am currently between BKK and upcountry, but would like to be upcountry more as I am not really a city person. We have built a house 2 hours north of BKK and this is where I want to setup an English "school"/private tutoring.

Makyai

I am also 2 hours "North" of BKK. As long as you do not plan on opening a school/tutoring service near me I can provide you with all the information I have. Seriously though, unless you lack confidence or like being a worker bee there is no need to teach in a school if you are Thai. I teach 30 students on a rotation basis. I do 4 days a week right now ( 5 hours per actual class time - about an 8 hours work day) and charge 2500 baht per month. If you do the math, you'll see that the money is pretty good for upcountry.

I can make a lot more money if I increase my class size from 10 per class but it's not about money for me. I truly want to try and make a difference. Trust me, if you are capable, pleasant, hard-working and speak really good English, the students will be beating down your door. Hack, 5 of my "students" are Thai "English" teachers from the local university and schools.

Ajarnski......

[agordon]

hi ski goong and makyai,

I actually don't have thai citizenship and I don't think I would be eligible either (not really sure, have to ask my mum). I think having it would be a huge advantage, as well as the ability to speak Thai. Actually, one of the reasons I want to go there is to learn Thai and try to trace my geneology. I think I'm in a pretty shit situation as I'm basically like any australian going over except I don't look white. I've only been to Thailand twice for short holidays and yeah, I was pretty much lost and clueless as most tourists.

Well I'm exploring other options right now, including the possibility of working for some multinational since I have a business and law degree, however I've only just graduated so the chances of that are pretty slim I think.

[Scott]

There certainly is discrimination, but I know where I work, it's the passport you carry that determines your value. So, even if you look Asia, you would be hired at the same salary as any other Australian.

It's take the school administration some time to figure out that it's the ability, not the race that is the key factor in teaching. Fortunately, we have a large enough school that there always enough white faces around.

Best of luck to you.

[aussiestyle1983]

There certainly is discrimination, but I know where I work, it's the passport you carry that determines your value. So, even if you look Asia, you would be hired at the same salary as any other Australian.

It's take the school administration some time to figure out that it's the ability, not the race that is the key factor in teaching. Fortunately, we have a large enough school that there always enough white faces around.

Best of luck to you.

Scott is spot on. The nationality you apply for the job with is what will be determined to assess whether you meet the criteria for a job. A native English speaker applying for a job that is looking for a native english speaker but uses a Thai passport, would eliminate you from the job. Anyway, Australia allows dual citizenship, does Thailand? I've never looked into that because I don't want Thai citizenship, especially since it's practically hard to get; you on the other hand have a Thai parent??? You could get Thai citizenship as well if possible to be able to start your own business and get the advantages of a Thai, but when applying for a teaching job , always use your farang passport. Native english speaking farangs should get a farang wage, a thai will get a thai wage, a native speaking farang that looks like a thai......... who knows. I hope you get the salary you deserve.

[Makyai]

agordon,

If you have a Thai birth certificate, and your name is registered on a House register, then it is easier to claim you Thai ID card. If for whatever reason you don't have any of that, but your mother does, you can still get your ID card, but it's a longer process. My advise to you, no matter what you decide to do, is get your mum to help you get your Thai ID card and your name on a House register sooner rather then later. It will come in handy in years to come.

[Makyai]

Ski-Goong,

We live in the Province of Singburi, amphur Inburi. Anywhere near you? Thanks for the information and if you don't mind I might PM you with some questions as I am trying to do the same thing - make a difference, especially in a rural area of Thailand where students don't have the same access to good English teachers like those who live in the cities.

Makyai

[Ski_Goong]

Ski-Goong,

We live in the Province of Singburi, amphur Inburi. Anywhere near you? Thanks for the information and if you don't mind I might PM you with some questions as I am trying to do the same thing - make a difference, especially in a rural area of Thailand where students don't have the same access to good English teachers like those who live in the cities.

Makyai

I live about 30 KM South of Korat.(in Sung Nern)...so that puts you about 130 KM from me. Anyhow, feel free to PM me. I will do my best to help you get set up.

To those who believes it's the PASSPORT that determines the pay, I think you are wrong. I applied to several schools and none of them cared that I have a U.S passport. All the saw was a Thai guy sitting in their office and that's not what they or the parents want to see.

Why pay a Thai looking person (who speaks with an American accent) a "Farang" wage when the parents can't see the ability or qualifications. All they see is the skin color as they walk pass. Here's a perfect example, have a Thai lady who wants my "Farang" friend to teach her English. Problem is, he speaks DUTCH! and broken English. But to this Thai lady, a "Farang" is better than any Thai teacher.

I understand that most Thai English teachers are not very capable (at least the ones I've met weren't). But to pick a "Farang" just for the sake of learning from a "Farang" is not a very good choice. So Makyai, if you decide to teach ,you will have to develop really thick skin and be very patient.

Most importantly....get your ID card (like I did last year). It will make everything you do in Thailand....ummm...easier.

Ajarnski

[aussiestyle1983]

Ski-Goong,

We live in the Province of Singburi, amphur Inburi. Anywhere near you? Thanks for the information and if you don't mind I might PM you with some questions as I am trying to do the same thing - make a difference, especially in a rural area of Thailand where students don't have the same access to good English teachers like those who live in the cities.

Makyai

I live about 30 KM South of Korat.(in Sung Nern)...so that puts you about 130 KM from me. Anyhow, feel free to PM me. I will do my best to help you get set up.

To those who believes it's the PASSPORT that determines the pay, I think you are wrong. I applied to several schools and none of them cared that I have a U.S passport. All the saw was a Thai guy sitting in their office and that's not what they or the parents want to see.

Why pay a Thai looking person (who speaks with an American accent) a "Farang" wage when the parents can't see the ability or qualifications. All they see is the skin color as they walk pass. Here's a perfect example, have a Thai lady who wants my "Farang" friend to teach her English. Problem is, he speaks DUTCH! and broken English. But to this Thai lady, a "Farang" is better than any Thai teacher.

I understand that most Thai English teachers are not very capable (at least the ones I've met weren't). But to pick a "Farang" just for the sake of learning from a "Farang" is not a very good choice. So Makyai, if you decide to teach ,you will have to develop really thick skin and be very patient.

Most importantly....get your ID card (like I did last year). It will make everything you do in Thailand....ummm...easier.

Ajarnski

Whgat I meant was at least by using a farang passport you will have more chances of getting an interview.

If you are luckily enough to get an interview without the need to send documents first, then of course it wouldn't matter what passport once you are face to face. But, a lot of places want to see a resume and a photo and sometimes even a copy of your proof of nationality and maybe even your visa beofre you get to that stage. If you need to send a copy of your passport to your potential employer, I would think they would have less concerns about your english teaching abilities and your accent if you used a farang passport (not that anyones abilities are better, but Thai's want farang, like it or not).

I have a mate, he had more than one PHD, qualified teacher in Oz, years of experience, perfect english and he was only 40. He was half chinese/ half malaysian and looked it as well. Many times he lost an oportunity to work to an un-qualified teacher, in some cases, even a backpacker who was only prepared to work for 3 months. As you can see, Thais want looks just as much as they want qualifications. Like it or not, the parents want to see white meat as well. Thats why, at the school I worked at, farangs HAD to stand at the enterance everyday and the filipions HAD to stay in the office during times they wern't teaching and parents were around. It's sad, I know.

The same mate above applied for a job at my school, over the phone interview they accepted that he was an Ozzie. When he attended the face to face interview, the interviewer said that he was lying, he was an Asian, and she wanted to see his Ozzie passport to proove it. He showed her the passport, she then said, well you might have Ozzie citizenship, but if you want a job you will get paid Asian rates, since you were born in KL and look Asian.

Regardless of what others say, you need to be prepared for a racial battle........

Edited January 25, 2008 by aussiestyle1983

[Thaiboxer]

Perhaps you can try some of the larger language schools to get your foot in the door. Many Filipinos start off in these places and go from there. Many Filipinos look like Thais, but you have an advantage; you're a native English speaker whereas they're not.

As another poster said, make good use of your national origins and who knows what it may lead to. Good luck!

[Ski_Goong]

Perhaps you can try some of the larger language schools to get your foot in the door. Many Filipinos start off in these places and go from there. Many Filipinos look like Thais, but you have an advantage; you're a native English speaker whereas they're not.

As another poster said, make good use of your national origins and who knows what it may lead to. Good luck!

I know 3 Filipinos working at the local universities. 1 speak decent English (accent, pace, usage) the other 2....geezz....I feel sorry the the students. Anyhow, the one with good English skills makes 21000 baht per month while the other 2 gets 16000 and 18000 respectively. My "Farang" friend makes 36000 per month (yeaching at the same school). I was offered 21000 per month at this school so I politely turned it down.

So yes, you can find a job but the pay disparity between Asian and "Farangs" will rather significant.

Ski and Goong

[fire and ice]

Follow the BM advice-get your Thai ID, Passport,etc so that life in Thailand will be easier for you.

Be careful if you do this - check first on if it will mean you have to do the Thai military service lottery..

[Boo]

Good advice, how old is the OP? If over 30 then no problem as he will automatically be exempted but if under 30 then registering for an ID will automatically add his name to the lottery. That said, not being able to speak thai will probably exempt him again so it seems liek a win win to gain your thai citzenship rights if only to enable you to stay without a visa.