Bar girl

[Mali]

Fool

I am not so sure about the advantages of the Thai "social security" system.  Many parents (especially in rural areas) have children because they see it as a way to materially prosper, and children are the ultimate form of free labor.  I've seen social studies where older women in villages think their younger counterparts are stupid for only desiring 1 or 2 children when they could have as many as 11 or 12.]

It is very common in an agriculture country for families to have many children to help out. You can verify this in the US history with the settlers, in European countries before the revolution of machineries, in rural India and many countries is Asia. As a country progresses to higher technology, the need for a large family subsides.

Art and Literature reflect the true nature of society and if you look at Thai Literature, you will find it full of examples of parents using/(abusing) their children, and if they are not of use they are abadoned/exiled etc.  The notion of unconditional love for your children is not found here.  Your children are either of use, or they are not worthy of love.   Look at Khun Chan - Khun Phan, Sang Thong, Phra Abhai Mani, for examples in classical Thai literature.  More modern versions of the attitudes of Thai parents towards their children can be found in Kukrit Pramoj's Si Pandin, Botan's Letters from Thailand, Khamsing Srinawks's Golden Legged Frog, and Pira Sudham's Rains. ]

 

It may be somewhat true that literatures reflect real lives to a curtain degree. However, they are still mixed with fantasy other wise they would be very boring; Anna and the King of Siam is a good example in this case. I would also like to point out that the abusive parents in the literature that you have quoted are mostly MEN. I came from a family of 7 and I didn’t think that my parents had us for free labor; since all of us with the exception of one of my siblings whom has learning disability graduated from colleges. That could be said for most families in the whole market area where I was raised.

I personally find it despicable that young struggling adults feel an enormous amount of guilt and obligation to support their lazy parents back home.  Instead of being able to concentrate on establishing themselves, which is hard enough to do in this modern world, they send back up to 95% of their pay in some cases.  Meanwhile, their old and aging parents (40-45 years young!) enjoy the fruits of their labor.  This is more common in women, as men can pay their parental debt by being ordained as a monk and sharing the merit from such action.]

I found this section of your remark very insulting to Thai culture. I guess you do not have the real understanding of the dynamic of Thai families, which by the way are shared with many other Asian countries. We, the children send the money home to show respect, love, and gratitude to our parents not because we feel guilty. And we only give as much as we can afford. I still remembered when I went back to see my parents after 11 years in the US. I gave a small amount of money which I could easily afford to my parents who then retuned the amount plus few thousand more back to me. Since they knew that my family was struggle with 2 young girls and my husband has just graduated after many years of schooling. All my sibling do send money home on a regular basis and my parent whom no one could call them LAZY by any mean. I could say that we are lucky that they can support themselves from their hard work when they were younger. They accept our money as proud parents that they have done a wonderful job in raising their children to be successful adults. We encourage them to use our gift to do something fun like traveling. And we love it. I could go on and on about this topics; but that should be another thread by itself.

We also have a strong sense of responsibility toward our family. It is not uncommon that the first-born will support their siblings through colleges if the parents are not well off.

The worst part of the system is when it results in children from Issaan and other areas being sold into prostitution.  This is not so the poor family might be able to eat and survive as you might expect.  In most cases, the children are sold so that daddy and mummy can afford to have a TV, a motorbike, or the most recent desire, a cell phone.

 

The Issan girls were sold because women are considered a commodity of the parents. This sad attitude is not only in Thailand, it happens in the Middle East culture, other Asian countries and Eastern European countries. It should be addressed and destroyed.

I agree that its also sad that many western children see no harm or shame in sending their folks off to live in a home because they would be an inconvienance to their lives.. But, color me strange, but I believe it is the PARENT's responsibility to take care of their children and NOT the other way around.]

Well, you have said it. This is what I call a ME, ME and ME generation. Would you say too that you were not asked to be born? I got the feeling that you do not like your parents very much. I happen to warship mine. My parents had only 4 years schooling and they started working in their early teen. They both were from dirt-poor families. They worked 362 days a week (only closed3 days for the Chinese New Year) for some 40 years. They did not have a lot of what they called luxury things like refrigerator, car, and motorcycle, TV when we were growing up. What they have for us is a lot of love and care. I still remember during my elementary school years that my mom after a long day at her shop ironing my school uniform while I was reading my book aloud to her; or my dad teaching me how to paint. Now it is our turn to make them feel love and we are doing everything we can to make them happy. It is the least we can do.

[foolwholaughsatdeath]

Mali,

You bring up some excellent points, and I'll be the first to admit that my understanding of Thai culture is limited.  It is a culture totally alien to me in many respects, and living here most of the year, I find myself stuggling to understand certtain aspects of it from time to time.  I don't mind the struggles, in fact I enjoy them, I wouldn't be in Thailand if I didn't love Thailand and her people.  If my personal viewpoint has insulted you, I apologize, no offense was intended.  

I think both systems of parenting, Thai and Farang have problems and merits.  That your family has had great success  within that system is a credit to it.  However, I suspect that such sucesses are more common to middle and upper class families.  Any Thai family who has had members educated in the West is certainly considered privillaged, at least in my book.

In poorer families, I think my claims are more accurate.  At least that is what I have seen in my personal experience.  My well-off Thai friends, especially those who are ethnic Chinese, follow patterns closer to your experience.

I have a good relationship with my folks, but its of a different nature.  They have always told me that they will look after themselves, and their job is to look after me.  My job is to accept their help and guidance, look after myself, and be a help and a guide to my children.  This is what I plan to do, and is what I strongly believe good parenting is about.  The thought that I might be a BURDEN on my children is psychologically uncomfortable to me.  

My views on this subject might seem more reactionary than they really are as I am now a new father, and find my philosophy constantly challenged by my Thai in-laws, who in fact fit the description in previous to a "T".

I just don't understand why my wife (if she had her way)wants to work overtime, and have me pay for a nanny to raise our child (which incidentally to my western standards of child care will cost more than she earns as an RN), so she can donate all her earnings to her parents who are both more than capable of working themselves.  

You spoke of "worshipping your parents", well to donate this kind of money month after month at the alter of Parenthood seems far more like worshipping in a cult than in any reasonable legit religion.

But like I said initially, both systems are bound to have both sucess and failure stories.  Obviously both our views are biased by our own personal experiences with those systems.

[Heng]

If one takes to examining the lower classes of any society, one is surely to find a lot of failures of the system.    The same if we assumed the ghettos, American Indian reservations, and US prison system were indicative of American culture.    

When the system works here, the parents DO take care of the chidren and the children DO take care of the parents.    And the government has one less family to worry about.  

[Mr Average]

Someone here asks about what happens to ageing bar girls, one reply to which was that many of them end up in Soi Zero.

Does anyone know what happens to ageing bar ladyboys.

[markt]

I once read that girls "enter the sex trade because of poverty, but how do you define poverty?"

A couple of years back i was talking to a girl in the waterfall bar, Pattaya.   She said that she had only just came to ptty and had never worked in a bar before.  (?)

I asked why she chose to work in a bar, and she said she wanted to help her father. "He needs a new motorcycle...."

[Heng]

The type of poverty where one actually doesn't have enough to eat and be sheltered is actually pretty rare here.   It's typically mismanagement of funds (IMO, the #1 cause is taking out loans on ventures/purchases that clearly are not going to be income streams) that is the root of many problems of the poor (and hence choice to enter prostitution by many of the poor).

:cool:

[Begs]

If i was poor, and uneducated, i would be a prostitute.

[Mali]

What do men in this board think of this statement?  If there are no Johns, there will be not prostitutes.

[Mighty Mouse]

If sex didn't feel so good there would be no Johns and no need for prostitutes.

If our bodies were designed so that we didn't gain pleasure from sexual acts, sex would never occur and there would be no reproduction of our species.

Whenever and wherever there is a sexual demand there will be someone willing to supply a service to meet that demand, whether money is charged for that service or not.

Those that choose to be prostitutes do so primarily for financial gain.

Their level of education has little to do with girls becoming prostitutes. I know of many European girls with university qualifications who have given up their career paths to become prostitutes. They were motivated by money, nothing more nothing less.

....and to throw in my tuppence worth as to why Thai bargirls have can't be faithful to the one guy who forwards money to them, these girls are running a business.

No successful business, whether it be a hotel, shop, bar or whatever, can survive with just one customer.

In 95% of cases, there is no meanigful love between a bargirl and her customer. Customers are a source of income. The more customers she has, the more money she can put into her bank account.

The other 5% of girls who DO have some romantic feelings for their customer, they will turn that customer into their number one boyfriend.

If that boyfriend can prove his worth by being faithful and by being a good provider for both her family and herself, she will turn her back on prostitution forever and become a devoted girlfriend/wife.

[Heng]

Of course, an inherent part of their business means that there are SOME feelings involved.   Just usually not enough to keep the girl in one place.   It's the same the world over, and certainly not a trait unique to Thai or Asian girls or even working girls.   If you don't fulfil your role as a provider, you're not going to be the sole provider.

[Begs]

I met a girl once that had been sold by her parents when she was in her early teens, then she had been sold on later to a thai bar owner in Pattaya.

I knew the Thai woman that was the owner of the bar, now this girl had no education, no I.D. card, nothing, now in my book i call that a crap hand to be dealt, i knew that the Mamasan had paid 30,000 baht for Lek from some people in Bangkok, now, Lek was a looker, not in the Thai sense, but to a farang she was a stunner. Sure the mamasan was happy.

Lek was away from her previous owners, (that operated a thai bar in sumut prakhan) so i think she was happy. She met a guy that felt sorry for her in that same bar. This guy paid $2000 U.S., 50000 baht, to free her from the Thai Mamasan of the Pattaya bar.  She married this farang in a Thai wedding ceremony at the Same bar, they sorted out her i.d. card somehow, long story short, he eventually got her to England , where they now have a family, the sons 9 i think, he is happy , she is happy, i saw him some months back, he swears it's the best thing he ever done. And she is the sweetest thing in the world to him. They met in 1991.

There, a true story, not speculation or generalisation, now if anyone says that its her fault she was in Pattaya they are wrong. This is not a story that packages all Thai Bar Girls in the same Box................. it's just the story of one.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

A nice one Begs. Thanx for sharing      

[OzzieMan]

I have only been in Bangkok for just over 4 weeks with another 6 weeks to go, and I guess I am just someone who is just learning the Thai ways I come across this every night.

The 1st 2 night I tried to help the cripples on the street the next week all the girls in the bars that needed saving, but I suddenly realised you can't marry them all, sorry uness your a Mormon

So here I am a much wiser (slightly poorer man) more than once I have paid a girls bar fine so she coud go home early and then been told she was back at the bar 30 mins after I had left.

I don't blame it on the girls its just a way of life to them, but I have found one special lady, maybe it will work but maybe it will not.

But I will not put up any monies that I am not prepared to loose, and just hope the experiences I have in this interesting place may help someone.

[Begs]

I have only been in Bangkok for just over 4 weeks with another 6 weeks to go, and I guess I am just someone who is just learning the Thai ways I come across this every night.

The 1st 2 night I tried to help the cripples on the street the next week all the girls in the bars that needed saving, but I suddenly realised you can't marry them all, sorry uness your a Mormon

So here I am a much wiser (slightly poorer man) more than once I have paid a girls bar fine so she coud go home early and then been told she was back at the bar 30 mins after I had left.

I don't blame it on the girls its just a way of life to them, but I have found one special lady, maybe it will work but maybe it will not.

But I will not put up any monies that I am not prepared to loose, and just hope the experiences I have in this interesting place may help someone.

Good one Ozzie,

You will find what is right for you, as i said before, nothing is the same in every case, and you will meet people that are not right and some that are, but........ain't that the same everywhere. I have met some Top Girls in Bars, real nice girls, sweet as you like, and in my post internet days i met Non-Bar girls that would jump into bed with me faster than any Soi Yodsak girl.........this is truley a wonderful place, you could listen to the cynics that say " They are all the same!", maybe they are in thier world, i been here since 1990, seen a lot, met a lot of people, i for one am never gonna say that "They are all the same!", cos i know it ain't that way, not in my world anyway.

Best of luck to ya mate.

All the Best.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Hey Ozzie ....how lucky can you get....a chickybaby and HP sauce...all in the same week      

[OzzieMan]

yep us Ossie's just have it made, and no dead horse'd.

Seriously though working in the film industry there is always someone ready to jump into bed with you, to get a part of the action on screen, so this is not new to me.

Gee I've live more than one mans share in my life  twosomes threesomes and moresomes, tbut Thai ladies are i do not know the word but innocent Bitches is the best way i can express myself.

The seem so innocent on the surface but have a degree in money laundering in their minds, I guess a cross between Julie Roberts & Bill Gates, now how can any man resist such an angel in wolf's clothing.

So as I cross the burning fire

My money soon to spend

I learn more in a single day

That poloticians will never mend

[Begs]

You seem like a nice guy Ozzie, man of the world also, pretty much the same as old Begs here.

You have an open mind, which in this Country is a good thing to have, many come here with thier narrow minded views of what is correct in  "Thier Own Countries", which of course is nothing to do with what happens here. And then they get all cynical and bitter about Thailand when things are not the way They THINK it should be. To my way of thinking............ if something is meant to be a certain way, then it would be that way.

This is a wonderful Country, enjoy it, you are dead a long time.

Ozzies are alright mate.

[chonabot]

[OzzieMan]

Will be finished work here in Thailand by mid November, and will take a couple of weeks off to enjoy what i have been putting on film.

Seems we should get together for a beer

And I can partake of your great words of wisdom

Or even better a Wild Turkey

Don't make me Beg

Moto of my Life

Man who thinks he knows everything

Might as well be deaf

[OzzieMan]

Begs me Mate

Was Chonabot being nice or nasty, must be late as it went right over me head.

Hey mate, let me tell you I hate all women

Why? Because I love em

Can't stop thinking about em

and they cost me a fortune in time and money

Epilogue:

What a way to go

[kwiz117]

This is how it really happen.

1. Many Thai Girls especially the BarGirls always are waiting to cheat Farang.

They somehow get the details of the Farang visit to Thailand from the Thai Embassy Offices and then wait in the Airport to catch them.

2. Bar Girls are in this Job, coz they are Uneducated and Greedy for Money.

Farang Bring Lot of Money to Thailand and they take all the LifeTime savings of these Poor Guys. Oh! After these guys go back, they always become Beggars in their country.

The BarGirls here are now among the Richest Individuals in Thailand.

3. These Uneducated Thai Girls easily cheat the educated Farang come to Thailand. Thai BarGirls are equipped with Magic Spells to cheat them.

4. Farang in Thailand are respectable Gentleman and therefore they never cheat any Thai Girl. They treat them in a very respectable way and most of the time they marry them.

5. Farang come to Thailand and go to Patpong/Nana only to Drink Beer. Bar Girls come and seduce these Poor guys and then Take to one-night hotels and make them Hipportise. [excuse for spelling] After that Poor Guys fall in love with them and send money every month.

     :cool:

[chonabot]

Nice bit of irony there from Kwiz!

( I think )

   ???