Tiger Park & Restaurant

[Gonzo the Face]

With the extreme amount of cruelty to animals in Thailand I can't believe that any intelligent person would even CONSIDER visiting a place that has captive endangered animals like tigers. There is a ton of information about how tigers are treated in the Kanchanaburi temple/zoo. This is a massive money-making scam and the monks are in it for the huge amount of money they pull in from unsuspecting tourists.

Of course the tigers are drugged there too. If they weren't it would just be a matter of time before someone got an arm ripped off... or worse. To think that the monks are experts on tiger behavior is simply silly (to be polite). Volunteers have seen the tigers given drugs. There's a lot of evidence online. Do some research for Christ's sake. You're thinking about supporting animal cruelty!

Austhaied, you're living in a fantasy world if you don't think the tigers in the temple are drugged. What's worse, slander or cruelty to an endangered animal?

We, each of us, has our own opinion, and I believe rightly entitled to our opinions. But where I have a problem is when a poster makes statements including words such as "scam", "drugged", impuning the integerty of monks in general, without offering any proof stronger than " of course" . The posters opinion would be better served if they expanded on the "of course" with some type of proof or documentation, other than letting us hear their gut feeling.

Galong probably thinks that it is just common sense that the Tigers must be drugged.

All I can say is that there are some really stupid people out there if they are not.

Now you have the answer ! !

The Tigers are NOT drugged.

The non delicious folks in there with them ARE drugged

[tigerbeer]

Keeping the weekend free to take the kids there . am sure they would love it.

i do rather see this tigers there than in the wild where they might fall prey to illegal tiger hunters..

[Priceless]

We, each of us, has our own opinion, and I believe rightly entitled to our opinions. But where I have a problem is when a poster makes statements including words such as "scam", "drugged", impuning the integerty of monks in general, without offering any proof stronger than " of course" . The posters opinion would be better served if they expanded on the "of course" with some type of proof or documentation, other than letting us hear their gut feeling.

If you have proof, post it. Let each of us decide for ourself, based on your proof, if not don't slander based on which way the wind blows your skirt. Actually this could go for many posts on this forum. If its your opinion, say its your opinion and be on. If not too many others will embelish on your opinion and make it their fact to prove whatever

JMHO

Eack poster is entitled to her/his own opinion(s) and posting them is part of what adds life and spice to the forum. I must however agree strongly with what Gonzo says, i.e. that one should clearly distinguish between opinions and facts. I have now learnt to look out for certain keywords like "of course", "obviously", "self-evident" and so on. These usually indicate that the poster has no factual background to his statement (and often knows it). It is a bit like the speaker who in his manuscript noted in the margin "weak argument - raise voice"

In a perfect world, each poster would consider it her/his duty to clearly declare whether something is a proven fact, a probability or just a personal impression/opinion. One must always remember that there may be people out there who read one's opinions as facts, and may make (important) decisions based thereupon.

/ Priceless

[sylviex]

For earlier discussion of tiger temple see

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=140483 .

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Is it officially open yet? Any idea how much they charge? (Adult, kids.. same price for foreigners I assume) ?

Looks awesome.. I do hope they drug the tigers like they do at the Kanchanaburi tiger temple so you can have your picture taken with them.

What sh$t you talk mate the tigers at Kanchanaburi tiger temple are not drugged was there two years ago when one of younger tigers charged at us when waiting to take photos the speed it move at was unreal what you have to remember is the tigers have been cared for since they were cubs and during the day tigers are very lazy

What are you some sort of big cat Veterinary expert? How the heck could you say definitively? The only way is to drug test them. Lets face it petting large tigers by the public is an unusual attraction in this world. Why is it unusual? because they are very dangerous predators who have been known to hunt humans in places like India. Ever hear about Siegfried and Roy? That guy practically was tiger's father and it still tried to kill him.

Its not illogical to suspect they are drugged because we haven't read any stories of tigers killing visitors in Thailand.

This is analogous to saying "Lance Armstrong" or whoever does not dope because I have a friend who knows Lance. You have to be kidding right?

The tigers in Kanchanaburi are exersized then well fed before the tourists arrive. Their trainer who happens to be the abbot of the temple has raised most of them from cubs and reads their behaviour very well. He knows when to tell people to back off and wont let certain types of people anywhere near them.

The tigers probably pick up on your "state of mind" so i wouldnt recommend going there with an attitude, so to speak.

That would leave out most of the Tvisa members.

It might not be a pharmaceutical drug per se. It could simply be calming or sedative herbs but in any case tigers tend to be much more active and playful even after feeding. so still I would want to see some blood chemistry comparisons to draw any firm conclusions.

I am not in any particular camp of drugged or not drugged but its awfully suspicious for a country which openly accepts many manipulative animal techniques like sewing a cobra's mouth closed so it cannot spit venom at handlers and visitors.

I just find it delusional when people state "no way are they drugged". It's just poorly substantiated opinion at best.

[Jefferson]

Wow, having lived off and on in the "wilds" around that place for decades, the last time I remember anyone stumbling upon a wild cat was around 1987, more of a bobcat, not a leopard.

For sure it wasn't a leopard.

It sure was a mean sonoffabitch though, obviously very unhappy at the current state of things.. Reminded my of my wife in the morning before breakfast.

But let me include a picture why don't I :

Anyway, if it WAS a wild one they cought, and with most of that area being a national park, then what business do they have detaining it... (Not sure if anyone can confirm that they cought it)

As for the tigers, those are bred in captivity, pretty much like dogs, cats and cows.

Edited April 23, 2008 by Jefferson

[monkeyclub]

24 - 04 - 2008

Open but not complete

Standard menu found anywhere

Standard service found anywhere

Option to enter the cage with the younger tigers only and heavily supervised, Price is 300 THB for both LN's and Foriegners

[Ajarn]

With the extreme amount of cruelty to animals in Thailand I can't believe that any intelligent person would even CONSIDER visiting a place that has captive endangered animals like tigers. There is a ton of information about how tigers are treated in the Kanchanaburi temple/zoo. This is a massive money-making scam and the monks are in it for the huge amount of money they pull in from unsuspecting tourists.

Of course the tigers are drugged there too. If they weren't it would just be a matter of time before someone got an arm ripped off... or worse. To think that the monks are experts on tiger behavior is simply silly (to be polite). Volunteers have seen the tigers given drugs. There's a lot of evidence online. Do some research for Christ's sake. You're thinking about supporting animal cruelty!

Austhaied, you're living in a fantasy world if you don't think the tigers in the temple are drugged. What's worse, slander or cruelty to an endangered animal?

Have you visited? Why not tell of your own experiences?

Or are just someone who loves animals, who HEARD the stories?

[Austhaied]

With the extreme amount of cruelty to animals in Thailand I can't believe that any intelligent person would even CONSIDER visiting a place that has captive endangered animals like tigers. There is a ton of information about how tigers are treated in the Kanchanaburi temple/zoo. This is a massive money-making scam and the monks are in it for the huge amount of money they pull in from unsuspecting tourists.

Of course the tigers are drugged there too. If they weren't it would just be a matter of time before someone got an arm ripped off... or worse. To think that the monks are experts on tiger behavior is simply silly (to be polite). Volunteers have seen the tigers given drugs. There's a lot of evidence online. Do some research for Christ's sake. You're thinking about supporting animal cruelty!

Austhaied, you're living in a fantasy world if you don't think the tigers in the temple are drugged. What's worse, slander or cruelty to an endangered animal?

Have you visited? Why not tell of your own experiences?

Or are just someone who loves animals, who HEARD the stories?

I'd love to hear the answer to this too.

I've visited several times and can say that they are doing a fantastic job with the tigers there, they have a great big canyon / valley to play in and are treated like family members by all the Sangha there. They take in animals that have been injured, neglected. The tigers stand a lot better chance at a decent life there rather than being hunted by the many poachers that have been one of the main reason for the dwindling tiger numbers througout South East Asia.

They are trying to keep them from becoming extinct. I don't see how this can be in anyway a bad thing.

It's always just ignorance that blinds people from the truth.

Back on topic, i just hope the park in Mae Rim has conservation as a high priority as well. They do need cash to keep these things running. I expect they would receive little if any help from any government organizations.

If it creates an awareness for the tigers plight in children and adults alike then it has to be good.

[lannarebirth]

I have mixed feelings about these kinds of establishments. I don't think there's any doubt that if these animals were "free" in Thailand they would be hunted to extinction, either for profit or out of fear of physical harm or commercial loss. On the other hand it has been shown many times that "some" operators are irresponsible, inept and greedy. All to the detriment of the species.

I have visited the new Tiger Park in Mae Rim and I am not prepared to say that the proprietors fall into that category. It seems to be a very well run establishment, but I know very little about the place. I would say the Night Safari and Sriracha establishments do fall into the evil category and would urge anyone to boycott those slaughterhouses.

I had thought the introduction of Viagra and similar meds would curb the Chinese demand for these endangered animals, but thusfarthat doesn't seem to be the case. It's apparent they'd kill every last one if they could.

[Austhaied]

I have mixed feelings about these kinds of establishments. I don't think there's any doubt that if these animals were "free" in Thailand they would be hunted to extinction, either for profit or out of fear of physical harm or commercial loss. On the other hand it has been shown many times that "some" operators are irresponsible, inept and greedy. All to the detriment of the species.

I have visited the new Tiger Park in Mae Rim and I am not prepared to say that the proprietors fall into that category. It seems to be a very well run establishment, but I know very little about the place. I would say the Night Safari and Sriracha establishments do fall into the evil category and would urge anyone to boycott those slaughterhouses.

I had thought the introduction of Viagra and similar meds would curb the Chinese demand for these endangered animals, but thusfarthat doesn't seem to be the case. It's apparent they'd kill every last one if they could.

Add Songkhla Zoo to your boycott list as well. Disgraceful what they are doing to all the animals there.

[mobs00]

Before I start would like to say that I have no association with this business. I am not trying to write a good report or a bad report. I went to the Tiger Park with an open mind and have tried to write this as I experienced it.

I went to the Tiger Park and restaurant today April 26. We got there and there was more than enough staff to take care of us. We ordered from the 2 page menu and it was very basic. Dishes on average between 60-100 baht each. The food was ok, nothing spectacular, although the portions were small. From our seats we could see the tigers in the main viewing area.

My friend and I paid 300 baht each for a tour around the facility and to go inside the pen with the young tigers. To take a look around is free though. The first thing I noticed was that the cages were quite small. For the viewing area at the restaurant, there is an open pen with a small area for the tigers to play in a pool. They weren’t ready for us so our guide took us around to show the other animals.

Our guide said these animals came from the Ubon Zoo.

They had a small Clouded Leopard (the guide said it was a tiger) in a cage. She said that it was caught in the wild so we can’t go inside with it. I am not sure why it needed to be trapped and taken from the jungle, but I didn’t ask.

Next we went to see about 5, five week old cubs. They were in a separate building away from the parents. You can view them on A TV from outside. Again I did not ask why they weren’t with the mother or how and what they are fed. About fifty feet away is another double enclosure with the 5 year old breeding pair adult tigers. They are in separate cages and have a common area in the middle but are only allowed in one at a time. The mother was panting on the concrete floor. I did not get a good look at her but can imagine if she just had cubs and they are not feeding, she must be bloated with excess milk. The father was pacing in circles around his cage and there was no water in the small pool in the common area. Our guide told us these two tigers are strictly for breeding more cubs for the park. They were brought from the Ubon Zoo.

We now had the chance to go into the enclosure with the young tigers. There were about 5 roaming around and two other larger tigers (6 month old) in the cage. We got inside and were allowed to take photos ourselves and there was also a staff member who takes photos and will sell you a CD copy for 200 Baht. I must say these tigers in no way seemed sedated. A few times they tried to take a bite and/or swipe at me. Could’ve been the fried chicken I had for lunch?! We were allowed to play with them with palm fronds and coconut shells. You can also sit next to them and pet them. They are trained using negative reinforcement by means of a small bamboo stick which they use to hit them on the nose. I thought to myself "what good is an 18" piece of bamboo going to be?" Towards the end I was petting one on the belly and it tried to grab me, similar to what a 25kg house cat would do; luckily I pulled back in time. The guide then told me I need to hit the tiger to teach it not to bite me. I decided not to.

So we left the cage and I had a few more questions. I asked the guide what happens to the youngsters when they get bigger. She told us that when they are around 5-6 months old they are removed from the viewing enclosure and put in other cages as they are too big to be played with. I then asked where do they get more cubs? “They use the breeding pair to produce more” she said. So it seems that in a couple months time these 5 will be put somewhere else and the 5 or so newborns will be moved in.

We got our photo CD and left. I have not been to many other animal parks so I cannot compare facilities. I feel the facilities were too small and lacked proper stimulants. I don't think the animals are abused but you could not tell by going during normal business hours. They also don't seem to be sedated in any way.

I would not go back after finding out about the breeding pair and the subsequent offspring. I just couldn’t pay to see this again knowing that in a few months time these tigers will be too old and put in a small concrete and chain link enclosure to live out the rest of their days. Maybe I am wrong? This is just my opinion, things I saw, and questions I asked today and answers I received.

Pictures are included below.

Edited April 26, 2008 by mobs00

[Ulysses G.]

lacked proper stimulants.

Should the tigers be given cocaine or methedrine?

[mobs00]

lacked proper stimulants.

Should the tigers be given cocaine or methedrine?

I was wondering who the first would be to pick up on that.

Grass, trees, plants, water, goats, chickens, cows, etc. would suffice.

[Octaviousbp]

mobs brings up a good point. What does happen to the tigers after they are 6 months and not the attraction they once were? Having 5 full-grown tigers around would seem pretty expensive to feed (properly), especially if they aren't pulling in the business.

On a work visit, I did see a tiger at an animal rescue in the south that was clearly suffering from mental damage. It had been de-clawed and had trouble walking, amongst other things. The staff at the rescue said its brain had begun to atrophy from lack of protein, as it wasn't being fed enough meat during its previous captivity. Pretty sad sight to see...

But on a separate note, I just don't really see the attraction in looking at any animal in a cage... period. Is there a rush? Does it satisfy some curiousity? Why would I want a tiger's head on my lap anyway? But I guess that's a different question for a different time. Needless to say, I won't be stopping by anytime soon. Plenty of places more convenient with free wifi and cold beers.

[Galong]

Have you visited? Why not tell of your own experiences?

Or are just someone who loves animals, who HEARD the stories?

Of course I haven't been there! I wouldn't dream of supporting such a thing!

Do I really need to go to one of the famous places in Cambodia known for having children available for sex to have an opinion on how atrocious that is?

Should I have gone to one of Michael Vick's dog fights to be vehemently opposed to such a thing or can I have an opinion based on what I saw on TV and the internet?

Do I need to go to a sweat-shop in China to have a negative opinion on Wallmart shoes?

I think you get my drift here. I hope you were asking an honest question and not suggesting that I can't state opinions/facts based on what I've read and what I know about animals behavior and needs.

I base everything I've said abut the tiger temple based on common sense and on knowing animal behavior - for example, I say that they're drugged because if they weren't it would just be a matter of time before someone was ripped to pieces. And, if they're drugged the monks are lying about it. They claim that they are NOT drugged. If proven to be lying about that, wouldn't one questions the other statements and motives of the monks? Reading postings online from this forum, Thorntree, YouTube and elsewhere from people who have volunteered at the place and SEEN the tigers getting drugs is all the proof I need as again, if they're not drugged these wild animals would eventually kill or maim someone. To me, this seems very much common sense and believing that they aren't drugged takes a lot of faith... which I don't have.

My strong reaction to animal abuse come from both a strong love for animals (and people) and the knowledge of what animals need to live a normal happy life. For example, elephants "In the wild, elephants roam as much as 30 miles a day, snacking on lush foliage, bathing in water holes and interacting socially with other elephants in groups of up to 20." (quoted from here). Another quote from this article says, ""But the reform movement, say critics, didn't go far enough, and those natural-looking habitats are just an illusion created to enhance the visitors' experience. "From the animals' point of view," says Hancocks, "they are not better than they were when they were in cages. It's all done for theatrics." "

How many elephant camps allow their captives to roam any distance at all? From my personal experiences over the past 15+ years, I've never seen any of them allowed to venture more than a few meters. This is not the case in all elephant camps I'm sure, but the one I've visited (except the one in Chiang Mai) all have the elephants chained to posts or trees. What I have seen is animals being beaten and abused... I wish I hadn't seen the things I've seen.

The Tiger Park and Restaurant has a captive wild Leopard Cat. How do you think this formerly free animal feels about being gawked at by tourists? Catching a wild animal automatically makes me suspect that this place is interested in the business side of captive animals and not at all with the welfare of the animals.

To those who think that tigers are better off in captivity than in the jungle, I questions that line of thinking. Many places that have captive animals are breeding animals so that they can have more for tourists to view. Does the Tiger Temple place on releasing any of the tigers back into the wild? Does the Tiger Park have any plans to release tigers? Do any of the elephant camps release elephants back into the wild or do they simply add them to their 'fleet'? You might come back and say that they are better off alive in captivity than released a possibly killed by poachers. But, there is no guarantee that the poachers would kill the animal and the problem is not that they would be killed by poachers, the problem is the total lack of law enforcement when it comes to protecting wild animals. IF, and this is important, there is not enough wild land to release tigers and elephants, then what is the point of raising them in captivity for a live of abuse and mental suffering?

My views are based on compassion and sympathy.

[Galong]

Well, for some silly reason I couldn't edit (add) further info to this previous post.

Here's what I wanted to add in BOLD...

Have you visited? Why not tell of your own experiences?

Or are just someone who loves animals, who HEARD the stories?

Of course I haven't been there! I wouldn't dream of supporting such a thing!

Do I really need to go to one of the famous places in Cambodia known for having children available for sex to have an opinion on how atrocious that is?

Should I have gone to one of Michael Vick's dog fights to be vehemently opposed to such a thing or can I have an opinion based on what I saw on TV and the internet?

Do I need to go to a sweat-shop in China to have a negative opinion on Wallmart shoes?

I think you get my drift here. I hope you were asking an honest question and not suggesting that I can't state opinions/facts based on what I've read and what I know about animals behavior and needs.

I base everything I've said about the tiger temple based on common sense and on knowing animal behavior - for example, I say that they're drugged because if they weren't it would just be a matter of time before someone was ripped to pieces. And, if they're drugged the monks are lying about it. They claim that they are NOT drugged. If proven to be lying about that, wouldn't one questions the other statements and motives of the monks? Reading postings online from this forum, Thorntree, YouTube and elsewhere from people who have volunteered at the place and SEEN the tigers getting drugs is all the proof I need as again, if they're not drugged these wild animals would eventually kill or maim someone. To me, this seems very much common sense and believing that they aren't drugged takes a lot of faith... which I don't have.

My strong reaction to animal abuse come from both a strong love for animals (and people) and the knowledge of what animals need to live a normal happy life. For example, elephants "In the wild, elephants roam as much as 30 miles a day, snacking on lush foliage, bathing in water holes and interacting socially with other elephants in groups of up to 20." (quoted from here). Another quote from this article says, ""But the reform movement, say critics, didn't go far enough, and those natural-looking habitats are just an illusion created to enhance the visitors' experience. "From the animals' point of view," says Hancocks, "they are not better than they were when they were in cages. It's all done for theatrics." "

How many elephant camps allow their captives to roam any distance at all? From my personal experiences over the past 15+ years, I've never seen any of them allowed to venture more than a few meters. This is not the case in all elephant camps I'm sure, but the one I've visited (except the one in Chiang Mai) all have the elephants chained to posts or trees. What I have seen is animals being beaten and abused... I wish I hadn't seen the things I've seen.

The Tiger Park and Restaurant has a captive wild Clouded Leopard (listed as Vulnerable, meaning at high risk of becoming extinct in the wild in the medium-term future). Thailand signed the CITES (Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species) treaty. Clouded Leopards are listed at Appendix I, which means a species that cannot be traded commercially.

How do you think this formerly free animal (Leopard) feels about being gawked at by tourists? Do you care? Catching a wild animal automatically makes me suspect that this place is interested in the business side of captive animals and not at all with the welfare of the animals. Furthermore, I'll bet it's illegal to catch (not just trade) a Clouded Leopard... though I also seriously doubt that the authorities care.

To those who think that tigers are better off in captivity than in the jungle, I questions that line of thinking. Many places that have captive animals are breeding animals so that they can have more tigers for tourists to view/pet/get photos taken with.

Does the Tiger Temple place on releasing any of the tigers back into the wild? Does the Tiger Park have any plans to release tigers? Do any of the elephant camps release elephants back into the wild or do they simply add them to their 'fleet'? You might come back and say that they are better off alive in captivity than released a possibly killed by poachers. But, there is no guarantee that the poachers would kill the animal and the problem is not that they would be killed by poachers, the problem is the total lack of law enforcement when it comes to protecting wild animals. I was instrumental in getting a guy put in jail for twenty years for killing a Gaur in Klong Saeng Wildlife Sanctuary. I was warned that this is dangerous, but I believe more in doing the right thing than caring for my personal safety. I have turned in several people and I just got a very nice 'thank you' letter from the governor of Phang Nga Province for my efforts.

Lastly, IF, and this is important, there is not enough wild land to release tigers and elephants, then what is the point of raising them in captivity for a live of abuse and mental suffering?

My views are based on compassion and sympathy.

Edited April 28, 2008 by Galong

[Austhaied]

Well, for some silly reason I couldn't edit (add) further info to this previous post.

Here's what I wanted to add in BOLD...

Have you visited? Why not tell of your own experiences?

Or are just someone who loves animals, who HEARD the stories?

Of course I haven't been there! I wouldn't dream of supporting such a thing!

So how do you know that its a fact.

The internet ??

Television ??

Get real.

Go and look for yourself, I'll even buy you the ticket so as your "not supporting the lying monks".

[lannarebirth]

I don't think anybody really likes the idea of these animal exhibition establishments. The thing is, in the absence of a conservation ethic, breeding programs, protected wildlife zones, they may be the only line between survival of the species and extinction. I too would like to know what becomes of these animals as the get older.

[Kan Win]

In Kan years ago

Nice legs, shame about the face as the song goes, that is.

Just got up from me afternoon nap

Kan Win

[Kan Win]

I don't think anybody really likes the idea of these animal exhibition establishments. The thing is, in the absence of a conservation ethic, breeding programs, protected wildlife zones, they may be the only line between survival of the species and extinction. I too would like to know what becomes of these animals as the get older.

What should one do with me Wild Cat then? Old yes, we feed it each and everyday. Stopped the hissing at us this year, so yes she's getting pretty old, but her nails are still out should I wish to come closer to her:-

Photo taken Jan this year as the sun was setting in Kan

Kan Win

P.S. I know what you will all say "that this one is a Pussy" compared to the Tigers, but me cats are what they are, WILD

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

I don't think anybody really likes the idea of these animal exhibition establishments. The thing is, in the absence of a conservation ethic, breeding programs, protected wildlife zones, they may be the only line between survival of the species and extinction. I too would like to know what becomes of these animals as the get older.

I think its just a question we all have about animal care because the potential victims can't talk about it. Sure there will be some people who assume they are a abused and of course the Thailand apologist reality distortion types who deny anything like that could happen in Thailand.

I think the good that could come out of this is if tourists/visitors gave preference to animal exhibits who are being monitored and certified by international animal welfare organizations. Lots of other Thai businesses get international credentials like ISO compliance and my CM massage school has US accreditation etc.

Bring in some auditors who know the tricks of animal abuse and how to detect it. Most of these organizations are funded by donations so it would cost nothing to the Thai business and when approved could be a nice selling point for visitors to feel better about spending money there.

Until an operation steps up and gets inspected by an objective third party then its reasonable to be suspicious about patronizing them because there is a lot of motive to abuse animals.

[Ulysses G.]

I don't think anybody really likes the idea of these animal exhibition establishments. The thing is, in the absence of a conservation ethic, breeding programs, protected wildlife zones, they may be the only line between survival of the species and extinction. I too would like to know what becomes of these animals as the get older.

What should one do with me Wild Cat then? Old yes, we feed it each and everyday. Stopped the hissing at us this year, so yes she's getting pretty old, but her nails are still out should I wish to come closer to her:-

Photo taken Jan this year as the sun was setting in Kan

Kan Win

P.S. I know what you will all say "that this one is a Pussy" compared to the Tigers, but me cats are what they are, WILD

A beautiful cat.

A wild cat fell in love with our house cat and it took about 2 years, but now she stays with us and we can touch her a little, but she is still quite paranoid. She likes the girls better than me.

[Galong]

So how do you know that its a fact.

The internet ??

Television ??

Get real.

Go and look for yourself, I'll even buy you the ticket so as your "not supporting the lying monks".

Internet - Television... Um, we're debating on the internet aren't we? Tell me that you don't base some of your beliefs on TV shows or the internet. If you tell me that you don't, I'll simply stop chatting with you because I'd think you were either lying or just dumb... but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

No, that is sufficient for me. I am real, I've been here long enough to tell fluff from reality. You're not 'real' because you're falling for this scam. That is, if you actually care about the tigers... or is it the fact that you 'like' this place justification enough for you to not do further research?

I didn't just decide after reading one article that this place was a fake. I studied and read all I could about it. There has been ample info online and there's a YouTube video or two showing tigers being struck... from behind of course. That video seems to have been taken off of YouTube... I wonder why. The monk did nothing to prevent the tiger from being struck. His look was that of indifference.

OK, I'll waste my precious time sending you some info.

here

Here

Here

Evidence/theories that will prevent me from even considering visiting this zoo:

1. Tigers shouldn't be chained

2. I don't trust anyone when a large amount of money involved, especially if that person claims to be spiritual. Monks are just as human as other Thais and the chance to make a massive amount of money 'could' override their ethical pledges.

3. A tiger in the wild would rip your head off if you petted it while it was trying to get some sleep. Don't you see something strange about tigers (one of the most ferocious animals on the planet) allowing tourist after tourist pester them, hug them, pull on them, etc? Doesn't this make you think something's up?

4. Many witnesses have seen the tigers being drugged. No "I" didn't see it, but other have and there are enough to give it some credibility.

5. The 'temple' has done nothing to help the tigers, but they've made an enormous amount of money from this business. No tigers have been returned to the wild.

6. No tiger gets to have the amount of territory that tigers need to remain healthy in mind and body.

The people who state emphatically that these tigers are not drugged are not experts, they are likely very gullible... probably thinking that these guys are monks so they have kind hearts. That's what hundreds of alter boys thought.

There is enough evidence to support my position and I put the welfare of the tigers ahead of temple profits.

Try going there and not paying for anything. Better yet, get a bunch of your buddies to go there together and not pay. You might get one of the sober tigers from the back room to put you back in your place.

[Galong]

I think its just a question we all have about animal care because the potential victims can't talk about it. Sure there will be some people who assume they are a abused and of course the Thailand apologist reality distortion types who deny anything like that could happen in Thailand.

I think the good that could come out of this is if tourists/visitors gave preference to animal exhibits who are being monitored and certified by international animal welfare organizations. Lots of other Thai businesses get international credentials like ISO compliance and my CM massage school has US accreditation etc.

Bring in some auditors who know the tricks of animal abuse and how to detect it. Most of these organizations are funded by donations so it would cost nothing to the Thai business and when approved could be a nice selling point for visitors to feel better about spending money there.

Until an operation steps up and gets inspected by an objective third party then its reasonable to be suspicious about patronizing them because there is a lot of motive to abuse animals.

Very well said CobraNeckie! Absolutely spot-on!

Get some outside professionals to sneak in there and monitor the place. If they know that the professionals are coming, it would be a complete waste of time.

Then, go back and get some blood samples. THAT would prove once and for all that the tigers are drugged. The volunteers and others who said they've seen the drugs administered would be proven to be honest... the monks would be proven to be lying. And, if they're lying about something as important as this, wouldn't it warrant the complete search of the premises?

I'd be willing to bet my honor as an animal lover that this place would not pass a test by an outside animal welfare firm.

Sorry, I see absolutely no reason to trust this place.

[Austhaied]

So how do you know that its a fact.

The internet ??

Television ??

Get real.

Go and look for yourself, I'll even buy you the ticket so as your "not supporting the lying monks".

Internet - Television... Um, we're debating on the internet aren't we? Tell me that you don't base some of your beliefs on TV shows or the internet. If you tell me that you don't, I'll simply stop chatting with you because I'd think you were either lying or just dumb... but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

No, that is sufficient for me. I am real, I've been here long enough to tell fluff from reality. You're not 'real' because you're falling for this scam. That is, if you actually care about the tigers... or is it the fact that you 'like' this place justification enough for you to not do further research?

I didn't just decide after reading one article that this place was a fake. I studied and read all I could about it. There has been ample info online and there's a YouTube video or two showing tigers being struck... from behind of course. That video seems to have been taken off of YouTube... I wonder why. The monk did nothing to prevent the tiger from being struck. His look was that of indifference.

OK, I'll waste my precious time sending you some info.

here

Here

Here

Evidence/theories that will prevent me from even considering visiting this zoo:

1. Tigers shouldn't be chained

2. I don't trust anyone when a large amount of money involved, especially if that person claims to be spiritual. Monks are just as human as other Thais and the chance to make a massive amount of money 'could' override their ethical pledges.

3. A tiger in the wild would rip your head off if you petted it while it was trying to get some sleep. Don't you see something strange about tigers (one of the most ferocious animals on the planet) allowing tourist after tourist pester them, hug them, pull on them, etc? Doesn't this make you think something's up?

4. Many witnesses have seen the tigers being drugged. No "I" didn't see it, but other have and there are enough to give it some credibility.

5. The 'temple' has done nothing to help the tigers, but they've made an enormous amount of money from this business. No tigers have been returned to the wild.

6. No tiger gets to have the amount of territory that tigers need to remain healthy in mind and body.

The people who state emphatically that these tigers are not drugged are not experts, they are likely very gullible... probably thinking that these guys are monks so they have kind hearts. That's what hundreds of alter boys thought.

There is enough evidence to support my position and I put the welfare of the tigers ahead of temple profits.

Try going there and not paying for anything. Better yet, get a bunch of your buddies to go there together and not pay. You might get one of the sober tigers from the back room to put you back in your place.

Blah blah blah.

Whatever.

[joliepim]

Before I start would like to say that I have no association with this business. I am not trying to write a good report or a bad report. I went to the Tiger Park with an open mind and have tried to write this as I experienced it.

I went to the Tiger Park and restaurant today April 26. We got there and there was more than enough staff to take care of us. We ordered from the 2 page menu and it was very basic. Dishes on average between 60-100 baht each. The food was ok, nothing spectacular, although the portions were small. From our seats we could see the tigers in the main viewing area.

My friend and I paid 300 baht each for a tour around the facility and to go inside the pen with the young tigers. To take a look around is free though. The first thing I noticed was that the cages were quite small. For the viewing area at the restaurant, there is an open pen with a small area for the tigers to play in a pool. They weren't ready for us so our guide took us around to show the other animals.

Our guide said these animals came from the Ubon Zoo.

They had a small Clouded Leopard (the guide said it was a tiger) in a cage. She said that it was caught in the wild so we can't go inside with it. I am not sure why it needed to be trapped and taken from the jungle, but I didn't ask.

Next we went to see about 5, five week old cubs. They were in a separate building away from the parents. You can view them on A TV from outside. Again I did not ask why they weren't with the mother or how and what they are fed. About fifty feet away is another double enclosure with the 5 year old breeding pair adult tigers. They are in separate cages and have a common area in the middle but are only allowed in one at a time. The mother was panting on the concrete floor. I did not get a good look at her but can imagine if she just had cubs and they are not feeding, she must be bloated with excess milk. The father was pacing in circles around his cage and there was no water in the small pool in the common area. Our guide told us these two tigers are strictly for breeding more cubs for the park. They were brought from the Ubon Zoo.

We now had the chance to go into the enclosure with the young tigers. There were about 5 roaming around and two other larger tigers (6 month old) in the cage. We got inside and were allowed to take photos ourselves and there was also a staff member who takes photos and will sell you a CD copy for 200 Baht. I must say these tigers in no way seemed sedated. A few times they tried to take a bite and/or swipe at me. Could've been the fried chicken I had for lunch?! We were allowed to play with them with palm fronds and coconut shells. You can also sit next to them and pet them. They are trained using negative reinforcement by means of a small bamboo stick which they use to hit them on the nose. I thought to myself "what good is an 18" piece of bamboo going to be?" Towards the end I was petting one on the belly and it tried to grab me, similar to what a 25kg house cat would do; luckily I pulled back in time. The guide then told me I need to hit the tiger to teach it not to bite me. I decided not to.

So we left the cage and I had a few more questions. I asked the guide what happens to the youngsters when they get bigger. She told us that when they are around 5-6 months old they are removed from the viewing enclosure and put in other cages as they are too big to be played with. I then asked where do they get more cubs? "They use the breeding pair to produce more" she said. So it seems that in a couple months time these 5 will be put somewhere else and the 5 or so newborns will be moved in.

We got our photo CD and left. I have not been to many other animal parks so I cannot compare facilities. I feel the facilities were too small and lacked proper stimulants. I don't think the animals are abused but you could not tell by going during normal business hours. They also don't seem to be sedated in any way.

I would not go back after finding out about the breeding pair and the subsequent offspring. I just couldn't pay to see this again knowing that in a few months time these tigers will be too old and put in a small concrete and chain link enclosure to live out the rest of their days. Maybe I am wrong? This is just my opinion, things I saw, and questions I asked today and answers I received.

Pictures are included below.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are have a BIG!!!!!! misunderstanding in something.

May i tell you the truth here follows,

1.The coulded animal wasn't catch from the wide. It was lost from somewhere (we never know) and went inside the human house. Then the house owner called the government to take it out from their house. After that the government don't know how to do so that they gave it to Tiger Kingdom Maerim to take care.

2.The cubs not be seperate from their mother.They are inside the big wooden box in the same cage and still be fed from the mother.

You can see them from TV because the mother will get angry when you come close to her baby. They need the camera to take care of the cubs

in case that the mother not fed her baby, we will know and can help them on time. See picture.

3. The pool have no water because it possible that the mother will put her baby into the pool when the weather is hot.

The staff have to splash the water into the cage all day to make them feel good.

4.The 4 small tigers are 6 month old and the 2 others larger is 1 year old.

5.When the youngsters get bigger we will put them in the other larger area. The tigers here never been chain link enclosure.

Please see picture from ubonzoo ( the head office ). You see the parents tiger are in small cage because the zoo at maerim is underconstruction so that you may not have any idea about this. Others knowledge about tiger behavior -- Youg tiger love to play like a children and older tiger like to stay and sleep. (Think about the young cat play all day long and the old cat sleep all day long. )

You can find more the picture from Ubonzoo from this site http://www.ubonzoo.com/

The tigers never been chain to live out the rest of their days as your mentionned. It live with happiness all their life.

6.Tiger kingdom not allow Tigers breeding and breeding to produce more tiger because it not good for their healthy. The park owners love tiger so much.

they have more than 20 years experience to take care of the tiger. Tiger in the natural jungle can live between 12 -15 year but tigers at Ubonzoo can live until 20 - 30 year old due to they have a good health and living in a good environment, good food and good medicine. In 2-3 the tiger in natural jungle may have food only 1 time but here the tiger have food everyday.

I am not good in English but i am sure that i know this place more than your guide.

If you have any others question please email //E-mail address removed as per forum rules - Tywais// so we can discuss on this.

PIM

[joliepim]

In 2-3 day the tiger in natural jungle may have food only 1 time but here the tiger have food everyday

[joliepim]

1.The coulded animal wasn't catch from the wide. It was lost from somewhere (we never know) and went inside the human house. Then the house owner called the government to take it out from their house. After that the government don't know how to do so that they gave it to Tiger Kingdom Maerim to take care.

Opps..!!

Sorry!! I mean the clouded leopard...

[tigerbeer]

JoliePim,

Thank you for taking the time in clarifying some issues brought up here. I have been to Tiger Kingdom and did see the mother tiger with their cubs in the wooden enclosures. It seems like you are part of Tiger Kingdom and would like to wish you and your management all the best in taking care of there wonderful beasts.

I shall be coming back to enjoy the view of these tigers., Thanks for bringing them to us.

TB