OK, guys, Boater's poem thread has raised an issue that I think you need to address.

I would like serious, thought out answers here based on reality.

How much self-moderation are you capable of, and how much outside moderation do you feel is necessary? Robski wants the thing deleted, Mossfinn thinks the best defence is to ignore it.

So guys (and girls), I would like to know, in as honest and non-aggressive manner as possible, what you would prefer? Obviously we can't degenerate into total nastiness here , but I would like some input as to what you think is the best thing for you to have a lively, interesting forum without resorting to aggressiveness, insults and flaming.

We are not talking about General here, or other moderation actions in the past. But a way going forward and what you all think you are capable of doing to keep this forum thriving.

OK, guys, Boater's poem thread has raised an issue that I think you need to address.

Yes I agree

Mossfinn thinks the best defence is to ignore it.

To be fair, that is not exactly what I said.

So guys, I would like to know, in as honest and non-aggressive manner as possible, what you would prefer?

I will try and answer tomorrow because I think you have an interesting point, bearing in mind my long standing view of self moderation in this forum.

I found the poem in very poor taste but think to delete it just sweeping it under the mat. I think it is best used as an example of what not to do and then left to die a quiet death.

Even though I found it offensive I would still say leave it alone. Bedlam, whilst not being self moderating, should be a forum for 'free speech'. Threads that 'push the envelope' should be ignored or slagged off rather than deleted.

Very few members would intentionally try to be offensive, and those who do should be ignored or castigated by the Bedlam faithful.

I'm really enjoying Bedlam of late and would hate to see 'Inter Nicene' strife ruin it.

If, however, things started to get out of hand, well hey, moderate it more strongly!

I'm not really sure. His poem could have raised some constructive discussion if people were up for it. It was a little bit racist and over the top, yes, but sometimes that is used merely to get people's attention for a good discussion. Of course not Thailand-related but of course that's what Bedlam is for, innit? However it could be more of a political discussion which you don't allow anyway.

I am happy to reopen it pending this threads responses

Boater's poem is a dated re-hash which lost it's novelty value years ago.

Barely funny now (even to a new reader) it did touch a nerve at the time and wasn't a million miles away from the truth. Australia's recent (not current) stand on immigration produced a number of similar nationalistic posturings.

There is much social commentary to consider within that poem (and many like it) about the freedoms that a country, such as England, allowed to foreigners. Pretty much giving the unrestricted right to work (without permit), right to open a business, right to own land and property, right to state benefits etc, etc

It also touches on the attitudes of the inhabitants who saw their, previously unchallenged, positions being taken by foreigners. The situation also illustrated what could be achieved by hard work by these migrant workers. I doubt a 24 hour shop would have been considered by a Briton.

Is all that relevant to Boater's post of that poem? - probably not, but it is about as offensive as a schoolyard taunting rhyme.

Is the poem offensive? - It should not be if viewed in the juevenile manner in which it constructed. Is it a mantra for the National Front? - most certainly not. Someone will always find offence in almost anything - it is a case of balancing the sensitivities.

Is there any point to the poem - not in my opinion and I would not have bothered to post anything on that thread. This one about moderating is far more interesting.

In Bedlam, I would probably have let it run it's natural course although I could accept closure on the grounds of pointlesness.

How much self-moderation are you capable of

That's a fairly broad church isn't it, granted, slightly narrower in here than in 'General' and self moderation is something, that with most people, improves with time (I know it has with me, ask Boo about my T-UK days)

Another factor of Bedlam is that non of us (or very few) are anonymous internet monsters hiding behind a computer screen, Ok, I have never physically met Tigs, Kayo or Rob, but I have met Raro, Soundman, Moss, Yorkie etc and one of them has, so you have physical knowledge of existence by association. That fact alone goes a long way to reducing the chance of one of us throwing a tantrum in my opinion.

With regards to 'the poem' ...... was I offended by it? no ...... was I amused by it? no ..... did I deem it worthy of making a sensible comment? no ..... which is why I posted what I did. Left alone (apart from the one moderated post) it would have gone one of two ways, it would have become totally Bedlamised and then forgotten, or it could have sparked a fairly serious discussion...... which way it went would have a lot to do with timing.

I think Moss said it best in that thread.

the best defence is to either ignore, or show ones displeasure, or even to deconstruct the intent

Boater's poem is sooooo old, really pre-PC, anti-deluvian.

Certainly NOT PC in todays world, but so is much more here in Bedlam.

If you are offended by it, stay out of Bedlam.

Certainly old in NZ, written mainly about, Islanders coming here.

Main thing is it is TRUE.

If truth hurts, sad for you.

I find no offence, if Billy Connolly used it in his show, the audience would be in stitches.

Sorry, but I am surprised by the double standard sensitivities of some posters condemning Boater.

BOATER, cheers mate.....

I am not discussing Boater's thread specifically zpete, frankly, he can think whatever he wants.

But, it raised some questions, when it is brought to mods attention as being offensive. I want to know and am asking, do you feel that you can deal with these things without getting personal or do you feel that moderation on these kinds of issues is necessary.

As a frequent user and defender of Bedlam I prefer to see the place as self moderating. I like to believe that the majority of users here are relatively thick skinned and opinionated but still able to debate without resorting to personal insults.

One advantage of Bedlam is that most people here have developed a rapport with eachother that becomes banter between friends. I may not enjoy some of the threads but I simply leave them unread.

for what it is worth I didn't find the poem amusing or clever but I did not think it warranted being closed - just ignored until it went away.

CB

If you are offended by it, stay out of Bedlam.

Wrong answer.

How about some sub-forums in Bedlam. A few suggestions, I'm sure others will contribute.

Non flaming chit chat and the usaul non sensical phut pasa Bedders

Thai issues.

Non Thai issues.

World news/Politics (ooh controversial)

Crap cut and paste articles from the Sun.

Bum gun threads.

Thanks for giving us the chance to discuss it.. (again)

For my 2 cents worth, I tend to think that the moderators and or administrators have been a tad to quick in removing this thread when all it needed was the ignore that it deserved. What you have done now by your collective actions is pull focus to a rather unpleasant smell which would have dissapated in time.

Now how are you going to reinstate it I ask.

Just as we the posters must think, then think again, about posting something I would ask the moderators to do likewise before initiating action.

Or perhaps it's our morals that you are protecting.............

PS This is only part of the healthy debate and in no way is aimed offensively at anybody.

Generally I'm against censorship of any kind, but the clientel on internet forums neccesitate it to some degree. (Another place tried the nil moderation route and even they had to backtrack eventually. The dregs were attracted there and many still besoil the place)

I started to read the poem, realized I had done so somewhere previously, and didn't bother going on because it neither amused nor interested me. I'm not too concerned about so called, racist issues if done with humour and not malice. Try reading the lengthy threads about Australians both here, and in "Jokes", as an example.

However, if there are people who find that posting or reading such drivel (to me) gives them something , good luck to them. It shouldn't be closed because I don't care for it.

Because the entry level excludes most of the ratbags, Bedlam should be left to self regulate unless someone goes right over the top.

Boater's poem is sooooo old, really pre-PC, anti-deluvian.

Certainly NOT PC in todays world, but so is much more here in Bedlam.

If you are offended by it, stay out of Bedlam.

Certainly old in NZ, written mainly about, Islanders coming here.

Main thing is it is TRUE.

If truth hurts, sad for you.

I find no offence, if Billy Connolly used it in his show, the audience would be in stitches.

Sorry, but I am surprised by the double standard sensitivities of some posters condemning Boater.

BOATER, cheers mate.....

The only difference with Billy Connolly is thatyou have chosen to pay to go see his show in the first place

OK, guys, Boater's poem thread has raised an issue that I think you need to address.

I would like serious, thought out answers here based on reality.

How much self-moderation are you capable of, and how much outside moderation do you feel is necessary? Robski wants the thing deleted, Mossfinn thinks the best defence is to ignore it.

So guys (and girls), I would like to know, in as honest and non-aggressive manner as possible, what you would prefer? Obviously we can't degenerate into total nastiness here , but I would like some input as to what you think is the best thing for you to have a lively, interesting forum without resorting to aggressiveness, insults and flaming.

We are not talking about General here, or other moderation actions in the past. But a way going forward and what you all think you are capable of doing to keep this forum thriving.

The (counter)-question is: would the poem have been acceptable in Bedlam/Thaivisa if the poem was about Thai people ?

Me?: I think its racist and over the top and not worth Boater's normal behaviour which is already a little sensational sometimes...

ALL Western (and a lot of Eastern-) societies are built up of multi cultural and foreign ancestors. Look at the USA, Australia, New Zealand and 'Old' Europe. Look at the new Democratic Presidential candidate in the US.

No, it's not acceptable here on Bedlam. If it is, where is the end attacking certain races whether illegal immigrants or not ?

There is already a lot of hidden racism here on TV, we need no more explicit racism.

LaoPo

How much self-moderation are you capable of

Considerable I'd say

and how much outside moderation do you feel is necessary?

therefore very little, though I understand the closing of the thread, I also agree with its reopening.

It was so old hat and to suggest sending it to all tax payers was laughable, but was it really offensive, I don't know, it didn't offend me, I just thought it puirile and hence my response to either ignore, show ones contempt or deconstruct it, in all its pitiful glory.

It may have generated a debate, although I think it more likely to be continually rediculed and hence the self moderation aspect, there are other racist/sexist ( pick your own title here ) going on with little critism, but I guess this one just hit a raw nerve.

And Zpete, the lame response of stating, 'if you don't like it don't come here', is based on what exactly, one thread, one post, maybe even one word and the mantra of 'if you don't like it here, go home', nonsense, rears its ugly head again.

So sbk, I think you can tell by early responses that the thread received the contempt it deserved and possibly could have survived its closing with little blood spilt, self moderation is the rule says I, until it all goes pear-shaped.

Hey All

I am deeply sorry if i had offended anyone here, it was just something that arrived in my inbox that i personally thought was funny as there is a lot of truth behind it ( from a uk point a few ).... not to note the senders trail

Even those i condem racism, ( please note my g/f is Thai and my best friend is of african desent ) i still find humour ( unless very sick ) funny.. i mean think of all the white man jokes, Irish Jokes, Scottish Jokes ect ect, do they recieve the same responce.. NO... but they are the same in theory....

I have now learnt that any jokes i shall post in the other section, sorry for this

But the poem has brought up an interesting discussion

Crap cut and paste articles from the Sun.

So does that mean, no more of the above "Boater"?

Try and post some thing of your very own.

Yours truly

Kan Win

Hey All

I am deeply sorry if i had offended anyone here

How many times have you hit the 'add reply' button with a quote, with the intent of saying something profound, re-read your response after twenty minutes of typing, gone back and deleted at least three paragraphs and reworded the rest, then after another ten minutes of study, just closed the window and said nothing....... I do it all the time (nearly did it with this one)

No need to apologise, and I am only letting this post stand because there is basically no need to apologise.

I am deeply sorry if i had offended anyone here,

I shouldn't worry about upsetting anyone,

it will all be forgotten by tomorrow,

What were we talking about again?

Good Luck

Moss

OK, I think that is good for me. I have, as you see, re-opened it. I rarely moderate in this section, but as stated, it was brought to my attention as a mod, so it made me wonder what was needed here and what you, as the users of Bedlam, felt was needed here.

Thanks for the input

Hey All

I am deeply sorry if i had offended anyone here

How many times have you hit the 'add reply' button with a quote, with the intent of saying something profound, re-read your response after twenty minutes of typing, gone back and deleted at least three paragraphs and reworded the rest, then after another ten minutes of study, just closed the window and said nothing....... I do it all the time (nearly did it with this one)

No need to apologise, and I am only letting this post stand because there is basically no need to apologise.

You kniw Thaddy, I've got about 36,000 posts already but some I never hit the send button. And we're all the better for it. Although there weresome real corkers ledft on the cutting room floor ,as it were.

Crap cut and paste articles from the Sun.

Try and post some thing of your very own.

Oooooooooh.. get you.

Having a bad day?

Do you think I manged 3000+ posts without posting something of my own?

The reason I suggested a sub-forum or two is that from time to time there are some threads worthy of serious discussion posted in Bedlam, but because they are outnumbered by the Bedlam flotsum they tend to sink without a trace, then when a new member enters Bedlam the look and think 'oh where are all the unfettered heavyweight discussions'. Don't get me wrong I like a bit of twaddle too, but Bedlam now seems a place to post just for the sake of it.

I took objection to Boaters 'poem' because it is racism, as LaPao points out it wouldn't be tolerated if it were about Thais, but also beacuse it is so, so far down on the intellectual scale that I think it really shows what an intellectual desert Bedlam appears to be.

I just think that a subforum or two would help keep those more dynamic threads afloat long enough for more people to see them and add to the discussion, and also to stop that seriousness escaping into the Bedlam hullabaloo. And easier to moderate of course.

Just a thought.

Crap cut and paste articles from the Sun.

Try and post some thing of your very own.

Oooooooooh.. get you.

Having a bad day?

Do you think I manged 3000+ posts without posting something of my own?

Hi robski. I'm in my cups so you'll please excuse me if I've got it all wrong, but I'm thinking the Colenol (please check my spelling as that does't look quite right) 8is suggesting boater post something of his very own, which llikely we would all enjoy.

The reason I suggested a sub-forum or two is that from time to time there are some threads worthy of serious discussion posted in Bedlam, but because they are outnumbered by the Bedlam flotsum they tend to sink without a trace, then when a new member enters Bedlam the look and think 'oh where are all the unfettered heavyweight discussions'. Don't get me wrong I like a bit of twaddle too, but Bedlam now seems a place to post just for the sake of it.

Let's face facts robskers it IS mostly twaddle and those most highly revered here piost more twaddle than most.

I took objection to Boaters 'poem' because it is racism, as LaPao points out it wouldn't be tolerated if it were about Thais)(but wold be accepted if it were about Americans and maybe even British, don't you think?) but also beacuse it is so, so far down on the intellectual scale that I think it really shows what an intellectual desert Bedlam appears to be. Yes, it6's an intellectual desert, but Boaters post is hardly the worst of it. Normal bedlam is worse. actually the response to this post is the most thinking I've seen here lately. Too hard on poor Boater i think.

I just think that a subforum or two would help keep those more dynamic threads afloat long enough for more people to see them and add to the discussion, and also to stop that seriousness escaping into the Bedlam hullabaloo. And easier to moderate of course. I agree with that but people who think tend to get banned. (and a lot od people who don't also)

Just a thought.

Crap cut and paste articles from the Sun.

Try and post some thing of your very own.

Oooooooooh.. get you.

Having a bad day?

Do you think I manged 3000+ posts without posting something of my own?

Hi robski. I'm in my cups so you'll please excuse me if I've got it all wrong, but I'm thinking the Colenol (please check my spelling as that does't look quite right) 8is suggesting boater post something of his very own, which llikely we would all enjoy.

Yes I think you're right, it would make sense after reading Kan Wins other posts on the subject. Wrong end of the stick methunks.

The reason I suggested a sub-forum or two is that from time to time there are some threads worthy of serious discussion posted in Bedlam, but because they are outnumbered by the Bedlam flotsum they tend to sink without a trace, then when a new member enters Bedlam the look and think 'oh where are all the unfettered heavyweight discussions'. Don't get me wrong I like a bit of twaddle too, but Bedlam now seems a place to post just for the sake of it.

Let's face facts robskers it IS mostly twaddle and those most highly revered here piost more twaddle than most.

Ban them I say!

I took objection to Boaters 'poem' because it is racism, as LaoPo points out it wouldn't be tolerated if it were about Thais)(but wold be accepted if it were about Americans and maybe even British, don't you think?) but also beacuse it is so, so far down on the intellectual scale that I think it really shows what an intellectual desert Bedlam appears to be. Yes, it6's an intellectual desert, but Boaters post is hardly the worst of it. Normal bedlam is worse. actually the response to this post is the most thinking I've seen here lately. Too hard on poor Boater i think.

Yes your right, it was morning time BC when I read it. (Before Coffee) Can't really blame him for just playing along.

I just think that a subforum or two would help keep those more dynamic threads afloat long enough for more people to see them and add to the discussion, and also to stop that seriousness escaping into the Bedlam hullabaloo. And easier to moderate of course. I agree with that but people who think tend to get banned. (and a lot od people who don't also)

Again I agree.

However some of the contributions by LaoPo, Mossfinn, Siracha John et al to raise the bar have sunk without a trace and could do with a bit of help.

Just a thought.

On the general issue of moderation, thanks (SBK) for the opportunity to comment. Moderation should be only invoked (in Bedlam) in exceptional circumstances. I find the most offensive form of breaching the rules to be flaming, and that's probably the main area to which (in exceptional circumstances) moderation should be applied. As to the poem, it was just a bit of nonsense which can easily be ignored.

On the general issue of moderation, thanks (SBK) for the opportunity to comment. Moderation should be only invoked (in Bedlam) in exceptional circumstances. I find the most offensive form of breaching the rules to be flaming, and that's probably the main area to which (in exceptional circumstances) moderation should be applied. As to the poem, it was just a bit of nonsense which can easily be ignored.

What he said.

So it's time to get this down the Bedlam Tangential Route, any offers Raro, Suegha, Thad

Spank Paddles anyone

SBK can moderate my spank paddle any time!