Ayutthaya / Thailand Questions...

[desi]

Last week I went to Ayutthaya with a friend (her first time, mine of many). And I have some questions.

Some questions obviously go in the plant / animal section so I'll move them over if I can't get an answer here...

All through Ayutthaya there are headless statues. Makes sense. But also throughout the ruins are modern headless Buddhas. Is there any reason for this?

In spirit houses and spirit trees there are small characters. I also found the same in Wats along the ledges.

But also on the lower flat side I keep finding the same characters all laying down. So I'm wondering if there is any significance to this. A ritual? Or a high wind?

All through the Ayutthaya temples are dark birds nesting amongst the holes. They look like some sort of fancy pigeon. But noisier. Does anyone know what they are?

In Queen S park, Bangkok, they have these wonderful flowering trees. I also came across them in Ayutthaya and for the first time realised they were also aromatic. Are there any Thai stories behind these trees / flowers? Is the scent used for anything?

This is a tree I've never noticed before in Thailand, most likely because this time it's blooming. It looks like some sort of fig, but I can't really tell. Does anyone know?

Every time I show someone around Ayutthaya, I makes sure to stop off at my favourite restaurant along the water side. And every time I pass their Black Gods on a pedistal. This time I asked the driver what the deal is. Apparently they are good luck for money (?) I'm curious about the history. Anyone?

Thanks in advance.

(I'll move the plant and bird questions if there are no takers....)

[desi]

I forgot to include this one...

On the way to the restaurant we passed by a termite mound covered in flower offerings. I tried, but couldn't get an explanation on why this is done (although I do see the beauty in it)

Elsewhere in Autthaya, I came across a Spirit House overtaken by a termite mound. Yet this one is mostly ignored.

So right now it's all a mystery...

[AmeriThai]

We go to Ayuttaya now and then. Our son-in-law's family lives fairly close to some of the ancient wats.

The bird shown does indeed look like a pigeon.

As for the termite mound with the garlands, it's possible there may be a small pile of bricks from an old chedi or other structure beneath the mound. That's just a guess though. I've seen several unmarked areas with small undisturbed piles of bricks that are regarded with historical significance. It's all that remains of what was once there.

Regarding the headless Buddhas (not shown), when the Burmese sacked Ayuttaya, they sometimes lopped off the heads of the Buddha statues, in an effort to degrade the Thais.

Edited August 31, 2008 by AmeriThai

[desi]

Good point about there being something under the termite mound. I've seen them elsewhere in Thailand, but without the massive garlands that one has.

For the modern headless Buddhas, I guess they could be symbolising the Burmese raid?

[AmeriThai]

Good point about there being something under the termite mound. I've seen them elsewhere in Thailand, but without the massive garlands that one has.

For the modern headless Buddhas, I guess they could be symbolising the Burmese raid?

Sorry, I guess you did show a headless Buddha. I suppose modern miniatures like that are styled as a kind of rememberance.

The house of our son-in-law's family is a short walk down the street to Wat Phra Mahathat. There are several brick piles in the area. Adding garlands, gold leaf, etc., to the mounds serves as a sign of respect and remembrance. All piles of such bricks from ruins are usually preserved as is and as a memorial. Not all of them are covered with garlands though. Perhaps the ones that are is due to nearby locals, or are the ruins of significant structures that were well known. Just outside of the city, you can see the ruins of chedis that are still standing and surrounded by fields. Never been close enough to see if there are garlands around them though, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were at least a few.

Of the figures that are lying down, I don't know why that is. Some of the figure seem to have pegs as if they were meant to stand by inserting the peg into a hole, but there are no holes shown in the photo. I don't think anyone would want to bore holes though. You might be right that it's to symbolize the sacking of the city. Or it could be due to natural causes like wind or birds. It may also be that locals might place various figures there from time to time for similar reasons like applying gold leaf or garlands.

[DP25]

All through Ayutthaya there are headless statues. Makes sense. But also throughout the ruins are modern headless Buddhas. Is there any reason for this?

The headless statues are courtesy of the Burmese. When they conquered Ayutthaya in 1767 they smashed everything they couldn't cart home.

[orchis]

Thais have the habit of deposing off recently broken buddha statues

and other damged religious paraphernalia in the vicinity or in temples.

They dare not 'throw them away' but they re also of no use anymore.

In my opinion it hasnt got anything to do with the sack of Ayutaya because you

see this everywhere in Thailand.

That said there are (black) magic rituals going on around ancient temples in Ayutaya and Sukothai,

maybe that's where the complete figurines in the pic where used for.

Edited August 31, 2008 by orchis

[desi]

Or it could be due to natural causes like wind or birds. It may also be that locals might place various figures there from time to time for similar reasons like applying gold leaf or garlands.

From what I understand, in spirit houses, the figures are placed there to represent different gods of the land. Then the minor figures are there as servants, entertainment for the gods, and so the gods are not lonely. So I can see what you mean. That the piles all laying down could be there waiting for an occasion.

[desi]

Thais have the habit of deposing off recently broken buddha statues and other damged religious paraphernalia in the vicinity or in temples. They dare not 'throw them away' but they re also of no use anymore. In my opinion it hasnt got anything to do with the sack of Ayutaya because you see this everywhere in Thailand.

So it's like the Spirit House graves? I'm looking for one in Bangkok (a place where Spirit Houses go to rest). When I talked to my Thai teacher about it, she was apprehensive.

That said there are (black) magic rituals going on around ancient temples in Ayutaya and Sukothai, maybe that's where the complete figurines in the pic where used for.

Even better

[AmeriThai]

Or it could be due to natural causes like wind or birds. It may also be that locals might place various figures there from time to time for similar reasons like applying gold leaf or garlands.

From what I understand, in spirit houses, the figures are placed there to represent different gods of the land. Then the minor figures are there as servants, entertainment for the gods, and so the gods are not lonely. So I can see what you mean. That the piles all laying down could be there waiting for an occasion.

I can see what you mean as to wondering why the figurines are there in the first place. There might be some significance similar to figurines used in spirit houses. I don't know if the figurines in your photo are intentionally laying down for religious entertainment though, although I suppose that's possible. As for the piles of bricks, that's pretty much all that's remains of the structure that was originally there. And because the Thais attach religious and historical significance to them, they are left undisturbed where they lay. But that's not always the case. In some cases, some structures have been restored as much as possible. And in some cases, such as royal buildings, many artifacts that have been recovered have been moved to the museum.

The photo of the old spirit house with the metal roof and overtaken by termites, was that in Ayuttaya?

[desi]

Yes, Ayuttaya. And if my memory serves me right, it was on the way to the Portuguese settlement.

Have you been there? It has a Spirit House with a Christian theme (below).

[AmeriThai]

I've passed through the settlement but never stopped there. The settlement is somewhat southeast of the city as I recall, not too far from the mall by the expressway. Interesting photo of cultural blending. The style is pretty typical of many spirit houses found in Thailand, although slightly different. I suppose it would be regarded as being more of a display shrine. Looks like the chain attached to the donation box is to discourage anyone from walking off with it. Looks like there's also some wiring and a fluorescent light inside.

I've never thought of it before, but to me that's pretty much what spirit houses seem to be, although it seems like most Thai's believe spirits actually reside in spirit houses. I suppose spirit houses are generally thought of as a Buddhist tradition, especially when monks are brought in to determine the placement. But the tradition seem to have more to do with animist roots that has been integrated in with Thai tradition.

The old termite-occupied spirit house you posted earlier reminds me of one that's next to my sister-in-law's former house (in the family compound of her now deceased husband) in Saraburi province, not too far from our place. It didn't have termites, but was old and looking like it's ready to fall apart. It has some small figurines and a few other things inside, but I can't say I've ever seen anyone place food, drink, garlands, etc., there. Never seen anyone pay respects to it either. It still stands but just barely and seems to be all but ignored.

[meandwi]

Last week I went to Ayutthaya with a friend (her first time, mine of many). And I have some questions.

Some questions obviously go in the plant / animal section so I'll move them over if I can't get an answer here...

In Queen S park, Bangkok, they have these wonderful flowering trees. I also came across them in Ayutthaya and for the first time realised they were also aromatic. Are there any Thai stories behind these trees / flowers? Is the scent used for anything?

This is a tree I've never noticed before in Thailand, most likely because this time it's blooming. It looks like some sort of fig, but I can't really tell. Does anyone know?

Thanks in advance.

(I'll move the plant and bird questions if there are no takers....)

The tree with the great smell is a "cannonball tree" or "Couroupita guianensis". It is allways confused with the "Shorea robusta". The Shorea or "Sal tree" is the tree that Buddha died under. the cannonball tree gets a large heavy round seed.

The name of the red flowering tree is on the tip of my tounge, and I cant remember it now. But, I will let you know as soon as I remember.

Nice topic,

meandwi

[desi]

I asked around to see if I could get some answers. And I did. Then I spent a lot of time typing the information here. Only, ThaiVisa was revamping at the same time, so all was lost. I'll start again but I doubt it'll have the detail of the previous one...

The tree with the great smell is a "cannonball tree" or "Couroupita guianensis". It is allways confused with the "Shorea robusta". The Shorea or "Sal tree" is the tree that Buddha died under. the cannonball tree gets a large heavy round seed.

I was told that it's the the Sala Tree. Thanks. It's good to know the proper information. Since I always see it in special places (Wats and Queen's park) so I can see that others mistake it too. Btw - how do we tell them apart?

The black figures are quite interesting. From what I've read, they are the original people of Thailand. And it gets better... some researchers believe they were the Khmers, who made their way to Thailand to be replaced by the Thais. Makes sense in a way as the heads in Cambodia do not look like the locals I saw. So maybe it's also the reason for the black Buddhas we see around Thailand?

Here's a paper on the subject - The Negrito of Thailand: the Mani

Here's more... and even more... and more.

Anthropologists generally agree that the Mani (commonly known as the Sakai) have lived in the forests of the Thai-Malay peninsula since the Neolithic (Stone) Age, some 10,000 years ago – possibly longer. At least ten times older than Thai culture, Mani society is one of the most archaic civilisations remaining on earth today. Dating these people’s occupation of the southern rainforests is a daunting task given their nomadic nature and simple technologies. They employ all natural – and therefore biodegradable – materials.

So the Thais call them the Sekai (means slave). They call themselves the Mani (the people, or human being). In Malaysia they are called the Orang Asli (the original people).

When I studied Thailand before moving here, I understood the Mon to be the original people of Thailand, so right there it's another name for them (?)

The Mani are an ethnic group of Thailand. They are the only Negrito group in Thailand and speak Tonga' (also called Mos), a Mon-Khmer language in the Aslian language group.

King Rama the 5th traveled to south Thailand and brought a Sekai to his court in Bangkok. The story he wrote about the Ngór Bpàa (another name for them - the wild rambutan) is required reading in Thai schools even today. It's known as an all time classic.

For the termite mounds, here's my Thai teachers theory... The Thai believe that living things should be preserved. They also believe that if someone in a community has had good luck when asking for something from a spirit house, or tree or other living thing, then they'll all try and the stories will grow. So maybe this termite mound gave someone good luck?

For the figures on laying around at the Wat, she believes it's possible that they were brought from a Spirit House that crumbled or had to be discarded. And since they are still considered to be sacred, the Thais take them to a Wat to continue to honour them. And that maybe the ones laying down were just put there for those at the Wat to distribute around.

The same goes with the headless Buddha. That it's still sacred so they cannot throw it away so they'll take it to a Wat or sacred place and leave it.

Edited September 2, 2008 by desi