Thaksin Guilty In Land Case, Gets 2-year Imprisonment

[AlKing]

The reason the court found Potjiman (I refuse to add the honorific before her name), not guilty was because the court only has jurisdiciton for those peiple holding high government office.......This is the Supreme Court only for those with high political office...

She could be tried in a regular court and would be found guilty.....however it lack jurisdiciton to rule and pass sentence against non-government people...which she was not.

You may be confusing the Supreme Court with the Constitutional Court. The Supreme Court can take cases from anyone Thai citizen or foreigner. It is the final level of appeal from a provincial court. IE Provincial court's verdict appealed in the Appeal Court; the Appeal court's verdict appealed in the Supreme court. End of the road. I believe some cases seem to go straight to the Supreme court and there's no appeal against the verdict. This seems to be the situation in this case.

Sorry i am lose here. Why go through a few counts when one can have the final say. Just call every other courts SUPREME COURT. Full stops. No need for appeal. Appeal not allowed in Thailand, especially if your name is Thaksin. TiT.

[younghusband]

What is number 8?

Or is this game over?

it's not over...

#8 will be posted after it occurs.... same as the previous 7

One has to laugh at this.He's trying to appear as some form of avenging angel whereas he's just another bloke hunched over his laptop.

[brahmburgers]

The BBC is reporting that Thaksin expected a guilty verdict. He also stated that he is not in fact seeking asylum in the UK.

rule of thumb on anything Thaksin states in public: the opposite is true.

[quiksilva]

BigBuddha Posted Today, 2008-10-22 07:17:21

Accusing without any evidence is easy...what about the huge insurance companies who are also taking their money and investing into the weapons trading...this kind of thought is endless ....and doesn't have any bearings whatsoever....

I wonder who is pathetic and uninformed where do you get your resources from....you get it all from the big mouths screamers that are using manipulative means in the media to establish their dirty greedy works of filling their own pockets.....it's all corruption and politics...both "evil"....I prefer to choose the evil that is affecting me and majority of the people in Thailand for the good....now it is total chaos and destructiveness ......just wait and see if the PAD and their bunch of corrupt and greedy rich will get the steering wheel of running Thailand.....dig deep man.....you may not be safe in Thailand anymore...anarchy and chaos and crime will be the destiny for Thailand....

Wakie, wakie yes are you aware of the shit Thailand is now in......

pschef you got balls to respond...hope others will join in to spice up this onesided Thaksin complainers forum

I promised myself I wouldn't do this...

The truth is the economy was already on the upward swing before Thaksin even came in to power, he was lucky with that. Big Buddha said the poor prospered? Really? Well they certainly had more access to credit, which looks a lot like money to the poorly educated but hopefully you and I know better.

I will grant you that Thaksin did do a number of nice (albeit small) handouts to schools in the poorest provinces and the 30 baht healthcare scheme (whilst it has its problems) was a good step, and these often went overlooked and was certainly to his credit, but even these good acts were far outweighed by his gross abuse of power, corruption and his sickening human rights record. The man has the blood of thousands on his hands.

He had no professional/political ethics at all and whilst that sadly is often overlooked in business, the leader of a Nation must be held to a higher standard of scrutiny, he should be the one who provides the best example (if not him, than who?) and so ultimately it is in this that he failed all of Thailand.

He, alone, is responsible for dragging the international reputation of all Thai people through the mud, rich and poor, from North, South, East and West, because the rest of the world will rightly question how the majority of Thai people could choose a man like this to represent them in the global community.

He has tarnished Thailand's image like no other single person has ever done to a Nation (well except figures like Marcos, Pinochet and Hitler I suppose), but not to worry ultimately BigBhudda your argument is moot.

Your whinges are too late, thankfully he has been found guilty by the court, he is now a fugitive and will not be able to come to power until 74 years of age.

Hopefully Thai people can now work on taking the next steps on getting back to normal, there is still a lot to do and yes Thailand is still in the "shit" but this was an important hurdle that had to be overcome.

Here's a thought for the Thaksin lovers: - If only he had the foresight to donate a portion of his gains from the Temasek deal in the form of a few more schools around the country..

Edited October 22, 2008 by quiksilva

[Johpa]

London had long been the residence of choice of Thailand's highest ranking exiles fleeing the wrath of one group or another due to some misdeeds that somehow went beyond the usual acceptable misdeeds of what is clearly a deviant society at the upper social stratum. London remains one of the last bastions where the peerage system has quarters where it is not openly mocked.

What has the Peerage system got to do with it all?

Uh, perhaps you are unaware that even today many of the higher levels on the Thai social ladder are referred by those lower down as cao nais, best translated perhaps as 'lords'. Thus folks like Thaksin can find quarters and clubs in London where they will be treated to their imagined station in life above that of the rabble. Thus they much prefer London to, say, and American city during exile.

[younghusband]

London had long been the residence of choice of Thailand's highest ranking exiles fleeing the wrath of one group or another due to some misdeeds that somehow went beyond the usual acceptable misdeeds of what is clearly a deviant society at the upper social stratum. London remains one of the last bastions where the peerage system has quarters where it is not openly mocked.

What has the Peerage system got to do with it all?

Uh, perhaps you are unaware that even today many of the higher levels on the Thai social ladder are referred by those lower down as cao nais, best translated perhaps as 'lords'. Thus folks like Thaksin can find quarters and clubs in London where they will be treated to their imagined station in life above that of the rabble. Thus they much prefer London to, say, and American city during exile.

Thaksin would have as much chance of being accepted into the world of London's upper class as the typical visa runner with awkward vowels, distended belly, yellow shirt and little ex-peasant "wife."He would be much better off in somewhere like Florida I would have thought.

[h90]

The reason the court found Potjiman (I refuse to add the honorific before her name), not guilty was because the court only has jurisdiciton for those peiple holding high government office.......This is the Supreme Court only for those with high political office...

She could be tried in a regular court and would be found guilty.....however it lack jurisdiciton to rule and pass sentence against non-government people...which she was not.

You may be confusing the Supreme Court with the Constitutional Court. The Supreme Court can take cases from anyone Thai citizen or foreigner. It is the final level of appeal from a provincial court. IE Provincial court's verdict appealed in the Appeal Court; the Appeal court's verdict appealed in the Supreme court. End of the road. I believe some cases seem to go straight to the Supreme court and there's no appeal against the verdict. This seems to be the situation in this case.

Sorry i am lose here. Why go through a few counts when one can have the final say. Just call every other courts SUPREME COURT. Full stops. No need for appeal. Appeal not allowed in Thailand, especially if your name is Thaksin. TiT.

that structure of courts exists in most countries worldwide. But if you find a better solution than the rest of the human being in the last thousands of years, please let us know.

[hammered]

London had long been the residence of choice of Thailand's highest ranking exiles fleeing the wrath of one group or another due to some misdeeds that somehow went beyond the usual acceptable misdeeds of what is clearly a deviant society at the upper social stratum. London remains one of the last bastions where the peerage system has quarters where it is not openly mocked.

What has the Peerage system got to do with it all?

Uh, perhaps you are unaware that even today many of the higher levels on the Thai social ladder are referred by those lower down as cao nais, best translated perhaps as 'lords'. Thus folks like Thaksin can find quarters and clubs in London where they will be treated to their imagined station in life above that of the rabble. Thus they much prefer London to, say, and American city during exile.

Thaksin would have as much chance of being accepted into the world of London's upper class as the typical visa runner with awkward vowels, distended belly, yellow shirt and little ex-peasant "wife."He would be much better off in somewhere like Florida I would have thought.

I would agree with that with the proviso that he may well be accepted into the alternative London upper class of political emigrees, oligarchs, foreign business moguls etc if, and it may be a big if, that is what he aspires to but it may well not be. Florida is a good call.

[Samuian]

I would agree with that with the proviso that he may well be accepted into the alternative London upper class of political emigrees, oligarchs, foreign business moguls etc if, and it may be a big if, that is what he aspires to but it may well not be. Florida is a good call.

Well, what ever he/them must have known better, for sure!

As The Nation states today:

It started out as mere gossip that not many people thought would become true. "Khunying Or (Pojaman Shinawatra) wants it, and it seems she's definitely going to get it," a senior colleague of mine told everyone he talked to. "What a shame. They don't even care that the law prescribes prison for this kind of deal."

That was about five years ago. The planned bidding for the Ratchadapisek land plot was only mentioned in whispered dismay within limited circles.

He/they could have avoided this mess, but instead they had chosen to go for "all or Nothing"!

One of his mates in London Mohamed Al-Fayed English Premiership football team Fulham Football Club, Harrods, The Ritz and several other businesses, once married to the sister of arms dealer Adnan Kashoggi who employed him in his import business in Saudi Arabia. After establishing wide circles of influence in the UAE, Haiti and London, Fayed founded his own shipping company in Egypt before becoming a financial adviser to one of the world's richest men, the then Sultan of Brunei Omar Ali Saifuddien III, in 1966.

He arrived in Britain in 1974 and added the al- to his name, earning the Private Eye nickname "the Phoney Pharaoh".

Mohamed Fayed was involved in the cash for questions scandal, having offered money for questions in the commons to the Conservative MPs Neil Hamilton and Tim Smith. Both left the government in disgrace.[1] Fayed also revealed that the cabinet minister Jonathan Aitken had stayed for free at the Ritz Hotel in Paris at the same time as a group of Saudi arms dealers leading to Aitken's subsequent unsuccessful libel case and imprisonment for perjury.

He is in best neighborhood.....

However it wasn't that he didn't had a chance, anyone who claims today that this and other verdict in cases against him and his wife are "politically motivated", overlook the fact that, as "The Nation" reports today:

In an ideal world five years ago, Thaksin Shinawatra could have told his wife: "Let's wait and buy some other less contentious plots. We are rich enough to buy any property we want after I leave office."The same man could have dropped the controversial loan plan for Burma, allowed a national telecom commission to be set up to decide telecom concession conversion schemes, and sold Shin Corp in a transparent manner.

sure he could have gone another route, there is only a simple Yes/No left to answer!

The result of the question why has he chosen to go this path? is simple: He believed in earnest it was perfectly safe to do so, change a law here a bit, adjust the constitution there a bit and here we go.... "free ticket to ride"!

The Nation writes further:

Thaksin probably is not to be solely blamed for the great misery and tragedy that has befallen Thailand ever since, but at least we expected him to emerge yesterday and say he was sorry, that he broke the law and he regretted it - as well as its sad consequences. He will not be doing that. Gossip being passed around in limited circles now has it that he wants revenge, and he will most likely do anything he can to get it, no matter how great the stakes are. What a shame.

Quotes from The Nation:

That is why both of them are guilty, guilty because they clearly broke the law, knowingly!

The "extra topping on the pizza" is, that they weren't some uneducated business people from Nakhon Nowhere, but the Owners of a large telecom Corporation, Prime Minister and his wife, the First Lady!

This is what makes their case even sadder!

Edited October 22, 2008 by Samuian

[superrod]

Mr. Thaksin will one day "magically" disappear from his cell and wind up back in Manchester City.

Southeast Asia: where the only thing more powerful than the laws is money.

[BigBuddha]

BigBuddha Posted Today, 2008-10-22 07:17:21

Accusing without any evidence is easy...what about the huge insurance companies who are also taking their money and investing into the weapons trading...this kind of thought is endless ....and doesn't have any bearings whatsoever....

I wonder who is pathetic and uninformed where do you get your resources from....you get it all from the big mouths screamers that are using manipulative means in the media to establish their dirty greedy works of filling their own pockets.....it's all corruption and politics...both "evil"....I prefer to choose the evil that is affecting me and majority of the people in Thailand for the good....now it is total chaos and destructiveness ......just wait and see if the PAD and their bunch of corrupt and greedy rich will get the steering wheel of running Thailand.....dig deep man.....you may not be safe in Thailand anymore...anarchy and chaos and crime will be the destiny for Thailand....

Wakie, wakie yes are you aware of the shit Thailand is now in......

pschef you got balls to respond...hope others will join in to spice up this onesided Thaksin complainers forum

I promised myself I wouldn't do this...

The truth is the economy was already on the upward swing before Thaksin even came in to power, he was lucky with that. Big Buddha said the poor prospered? Really? Well they certainly had more access to credit, which looks a lot like money to the poorly educated but hopefully you and I know better.

I will grant you that Thaksin did do a number of nice (albeit small) handouts to schools in the poorest provinces and the 30 baht healthcare scheme (whilst it has its problems) was a good step, and these often went overlooked and was certainly to his credit, but even these good acts were far outweighed by his gross abuse of power, corruption and his sickening human rights record. The man has the blood of thousands on his hands.

He had no professional/political ethics at all and whilst that sadly is often overlooked in business, the leader of a Nation must be held to a higher standard of scrutiny, he should be the one who provides the best example (if not him, than who?) and so ultimately it is in this that he failed all of Thailand.

He, alone, is responsible for dragging the international reputation of all Thai people through the mud, rich and poor, from North, South, East and West, because the rest of the world will rightly question how the majority of Thai people could choose a man like this to represent them in the global community.

He has tarnished Thailand's image like no other single person has ever done to a Nation (well except figures like Marcos, Pinochet and Hitler I suppose), but not to worry ultimately BigBhudda your argument is moot.

Your whinges are too late, thankfully he has been found guilty by the court, he is now a fugitive and will not be able to come to power until 74 years of age.

Hopefully Thai people can now work on taking the next steps on getting back to normal, there is still a lot to do and yes Thailand is still in the "shit" but this was an important hurdle that had to be overcome.

Here's a thought for the Thaksin lovers: - If only he had the foresight to donate a portion of his gains from the Temasek deal in the form of a few more schools around the country..

Da silva, thks for responding...as the economy on a upward swing is ofcourse afterwards easy to say...but then how come it suddenly plummeted when he got ousted...you see this kind of reasoning doesn't hold ground to me....he was also the one who dares to thumb his nose to the IMF .....and gave Thailand its proudness back and say we don't need your loans...we will manage thank you...and got Thailand out of the debts....He knowing that the borrower will be the servant of the lender......Will Thailand now Thaksin is out ...be the slave of the IMF, Worldbank....to save Thailand from its economic nosedive....looks like an IMF conspiracy too in a way....get Thaksin our last hurdle out of the way and IMF can take over Thailand...will that happen soon in the near future?...just wait and see...as far as democratic dictatorships concerns...look at PI...with Marcos...he ruled with Love and strictness...look at Soeharto....look at South Africa.....Look at Rhodesia(zimbabwe) Look esp. at Irak....bad, bad guy of a dictator ruler ...ousted by the cowboys of the US....what a mess...... they all are not ready for total democracy all these countries need some strong man to keep things together....and now for decades these countries went back to savagery .......what evil would you like to choose...corrupt dictators...keeping most everyone happy, country organised, flourishing or..... anarchy and chaos, savagery, greedy warlords, generals, politicians only concern for their pockets.......watch the past of Thailand....always divided...HM The King had to intervene to unite the country again....will this happen again soon...that the fractions are so divided that due to lack of a strong leader...as far as Thailand getting it together after this hurdle of getting Thaksin out....remains to be seen....the only thing we learn from history is that we never learn from history and it will repeat again.....I believe it will take years now for Thailand to recover......choose between the two evils....let's hope that the pro-government, pro- Thaksin group doesn't get fed up and clobber the minority of PAD nothing doers and screamers as it can end up in massive blood baths and the Army needs to step in and control the masses again....There goes the democracy....as far as the international image... I totally disagree.....not too many countries approved the coup....that in itself is a great set back to democracy....and look what a big mess it brought about.....

I would love to see the PAD take over the country give it a year and see what a bloody bloodbaths are going to come....bunch of nothing doers to me....only instigated by a few influential screamers and greedy pocket fillers....who only scream and complain...but once they are put into the intricate and complex seat of governing and ruling a nation with a variety of ethnic differences.....their screams will soon be put to a halt as they will themselves be the victims of the "guillotine" they themselves have invented.....

[animatic]

He could have made huge donations from his Temasek profits even

15% to the poor of this country in schools and infrastructure

and businesses employing people for decent wages.

And called it taxes paid and EVERY ONE would have

jumped up to kneel at his feet in gratitude.

Then he STILL would have been RICH as Crosious... 64billion baht

15% of 76b. bt = $335,294,117 USD

sure could have gone a LONG way to raise the people up.

and he would still have had.... $1,900,000,000 left over

But in spite of TRT appearances to support the rural poor,

when it was crunch time he wanted to KEEP THE WHOLE PILE....

Hey, its work to hide all that ownership; lots of paper to shuffle

The WHOLE thing could have been defused by generous donations

to many causes, he would have stayed PM, people would have

REALLY thought him a true and worthy leader, savior of the country.

Bringing Thailand into the 21st century with GLORY...

Nope, he wanted to keep the pile and pay no taxes.

Now he wants revenge for people not liking

a slap in their collective face.

Edited October 22, 2008 by animatic

[quiksilva]

My views stand BB, but I will add this.

The people tasted progress, they thought Thailand was moving away from the past of greedy corrupt politicians. Thaksin promised this, but he betrayed them all with his vile abuses.

I agree that Thailand needs strong leadership, it does, it is sorely needed, but what we don't need is more corruption. Far from it.

What Thailand needs is a fundamental structural change in governance. A transparent system with checks and balances, overseen by a judiciary who values the law above all else. Thankfully it seems the key part of this is in place.

Over the last few months the judiciary system has repeatedly shown that nobody is above the law. This is a start. There's a long road ahead, but it seems we are moving in the right direction.

[insideleft]

While he remains having the right of appeal, and I believe he will appeal - but his wife won't, he may not remain a convicted criminal...I am very interested at the narrowness of the court margin...5 to 4 is not very convincing, regardless of how people feel about him...hopefully even a corrupt legal system won't convict or aquitt anyone on the basis of emotions, feelings or opinion...if the evidence is strong, there is a chance, even in a corrupt system...but if the evidence is not strong, the nature of the system is irrelevant...

I'm very happy with this verdict, but will await the appeal decision before I go on any kind of bender in celebration...

[animatic]

My views stand BB, but I will add this.

The people tasted progress, they thought Thailand was moving away from the past of greedy corrupt politicians. Thaksin promised this, but he betrayed them all with his vile abuses.

I agree that Thailand needs strong leadership, it does, it is sorely needed, but what we don't need is more corruption. Far from it.

What Thailand needs is a fundamental structural change in governance. A transparent system with checks and balances, overseen by a judiciary who values the law above all else. Thankfully it seems the key part of this is in place.

Over the last few months the judiciary system has repeatedly shown that nobody is above the law. This is a start. There's a long road ahead, but it seems we are moving in the right direction.

Quik and I are in TOTAL agreement.

The current system allows too much abuse.

It was not well thought out.

BUT the '97 constitution also allowed too much abuse.

Thaksin more than adequately proved that point.

But it MIGHT have been a touch stronger ins some areas, and weaker in others.

But the current movement to amend the constitution BACKWARDS is

the true clear and present danger to Thailand at this time.

It needs to be stronger and harsher against political abuse,

not more forgiving and flexible towards the powerful.

[quiksilva]

The verdict cannot be appealed under the law governing the court's division.

See Paragraph 5 :- http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/10/22...cs_30086596.php

Edited October 22, 2008 by quiksilva

[animatic]

While he remains having the right of appeal, and I believe he will appeal - but his wife won't, he may not remain a convicted criminal...I am very interested at the narrowness of the court margin...5 to 4 is not very convincing, regardless of how people feel about him...hopefully even a corrupt legal system won't convict or aquitt anyone on the basis of emotions, feelings or opinion...if the evidence is strong, there is a chance, even in a corrupt system...but if the evidence is not strong, the nature of the system is irrelevant...

I'm very happy with this verdict, but will await the appeal decision before I go on any kind of bender in celebration...

5 to 4 was on only ONE point,

and likely a poor choice to be so close about:

Did he KNOW his wife was buying the land.

Answer of course he did, 766 million baht says he did.

He legally HAS to give his aquiencence to a wife to buy land.

But they likely were trying to NOT hammer down the nails

with visable zealous vigour, a little face left, a little edge left un-trimmed

in a very Thai manner. Perfection wasn't the goal,

but conviction without visible rancour.

The end effect is he IS convicted and it's done.

5-4 is just window dressing for a little face saved

and maybe less revenge motive.

No coincidence a judge's house was bombed the night before either...

[Moonrakers]

I am not sure if this slow news day is a good thing or a bad thing.

[quiksilva]

How does the saying go?

No news is good news

[Moonrakers]

How does the saying go?

No news is good news

But then it could also be compared to babysitting a naughty child.

It is when they are quiet that you need to worry.

[clausewitz]

http://www.bangkokpost.com/211008_News/21Oct2008_news06.php

Land case sets a precedent for officials

State employees now have to abide by the anti-corruption law, writes Parista Yuthamanop

Today's Supreme Court verdict in the Ratchadaphisek land case is certain to have a major impact on the political landscape.

The ASC, an ad-hoc body formed after the military staged a coup in 2006, allege Mr Thaksin and his wife violated the National Counter Corruption Act by bidding for the plot.

Khunying Potjaman lodged the winning bid for the land in December 2003 in an auction run by the Financial Institutions Development Fund (FIDF), a unit of the Bank of Thailand. The FIDF took ownership of the land in 1995 to cover the losses of the defunct Erawan Trust, with a book value for the property of two billion baht.

The winning bid lodged by Khunying Potjaman was 772 million baht, or 58,000 baht per square wah. The auction was the second held by the FIDF for the land - the first auction was handled electronically in July 2003.

Three bids were received, with Khunying Potjaman's bid beating a 750 million baht offer by Noble Development Plc and a 730 million bid by Land & Houses Plc.

The FIDF and the central bank were reluctant players in the ASC investigation. One point of dispute is whether the FIDF is under the authority of the prime minister.

Officials insist that they were unaware of the bidders' identities until the final bids were submitted.

"The FIDF realised that it was the prime minister's wife only when her name appeared on the bidding document. We did not suspect that the bid was illegal because the auction rules say it is the bidder's responsibility to ensure their eligibility to participate," said one former FIDF executive.

Another point in dispute is over the bid itself. At 58,000 baht per square wah, the price was in line with official property valuations set by the Treasury Department from 2000 to 2003. Valuations were revised upwards in 2004 to 62,000 baht per square wah by the department.

Sopon Pornchokechai, the president of Thai Appraisal Foundation, said the prosecution should have paid more attention to the market value of the land.

"While the court case centers on the legal aspects of the transaction, it should also have a clear explanation on whether the government lost from the deal. The public should be well informed about the auction price in comparison with the market price," he said.

An urban planning expert also questioned the ultimate value of the property. Zoning rules implemented from 2003 imposed greater restrictions in terms of construction and the use of floor space relative to a given land area, limiting the potential value of any subsequent development.

In 1989 the Bangkok Metropolitan Administration ruled that the area near the Thailand Cultural Centre be limited to buildings of no more than nine storeys. That rule was overturned by a new planning act that came into force this year.

The fact that Noble and Land & Houses, two of the country's most prominent property developers, also participated in the final bidding also raises doubt about allegations of collusion.

Manop Bongsadadt, a lecturer at Chulalongkorn University's Faculty of Architecture, said the fact that listed companies joined the bid should indicate that the auction was transparent.

"I believe it was an open bid. Listed companies participating in the auction would have had to determine the market price of the land and seek board approval," Assoc Prof Manop said. "The tender prices should be no more than 5% to 10% different."

.

[insideleft]

The verdict cannot be appealed under the law governing the court's division.

See Paragraph 5 :- http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/10/22...cs_30086596.php

I thunk I'd read he had the right of appeal, but if the Nation's quote is true, and I'm usually very suspicious of this populist rag, my bender is very close by

indeedidly eedily!! (Flander, N, Circa 1999).

[h90]

The verdict cannot be appealed under the law governing the court's division.

See Paragraph 5 :- http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/10/22...cs_30086596.php

I thunk I'd read he had the right of appeal, but if the Nation's quote is true, and I'm usually very suspicious of this populist rag, my bender is very close by

indeedidly eedily!! (Flander, N, Circa 1999).

What I got told (but NOT sure if true) is that it can be "appealed" within 30 days only if some new evidence is found (like a new document).

[Samuian]

It is when they are quiet that you need to worry.

Is my guess too, but then rationally what can he do and at what expense?

Any wrong move may jeopardize his request for political asylum as there is an extradition request out already - he does have a lot of dough in his warchest, but I doubt that he also has the influence and the honorableness some other people have in this country!

After all he is a convicted criminal now!

This is his problem, a problem he will not be able to fix with more incited violence and death in the streets, there is always someone who will whisper some secrets in 'friends circles" and there are always ears which shouldn't hear the secrets whispered!

It's not over yet, but a strong signal has been set, the tide has changed, let's hope the powers to be will managed to keep this "train on track"!

The next challenge will be the so badly wanted amendment of the Constitution!

Edited October 22, 2008 by Samuian

[quiksilva]

Globalj - Make the most of these quiet times (long may they last). We are surely going to be in for a rough ride for sometime to come. Besides there's no sense in worrying that something bad will happen, for it surely will sooner or later. So what's to worry about?

PAD will be planning their next steps to oust Somchai, and Thaksin will be scheming and plotting revenge by virtue of his proxy's defense.

The Army will be watching both with interest to see that neither side goes too far (although only they seem to know how far 'too far' is) and hopefully they'll stay on track and not pick sides. No big surprises there.

All these points have to be resolved for us to move into more certain times. This is the process that has to be played out. The game is not yet over, one side must win, and right now it seems to me that the defending champions are on their way out.

Clausewitz - sounds to me like Professor Manop is being a little naive about the situation, just because two public listed firms participated in the auction does not mean the auction was fair and transparent to them. The guy pulling the strings made certain of that, and now he's been convicted of corruption.

Sopon raises the best point here,and this is the point of the land value. The government lost out on this deal, big time. So in effect the ruling did not go far enough.

Remember the values recorded here are only the government's appraised values, which in this case fall short of true market values. At the time of the sale, developers were recording staggering sales in the area. There were several projects that recorded 1,000 + condo units being sold over a single weekend.

Edited October 22, 2008 by quiksilva

[frodo]

I've read from posters who are not convinced about the 5-4 ruling. Take a look back into 2001 when Thaksin was acquitted in his asset's concealment case where the judges voted 8-7 in his favor, even though in 2000, the National Corruption Commission ruled 8-1 that Thaksin was guilty of hiding his assets. Furthermore, guess who's being investigated for bribing those judges in 2001 to get Thaksin off the hook? If you said Somchai Wongsawat, you are correct! Even with bribing judges back then, Thaksin was acquitted by only one vote! If one vote worked in his favor in 2001, then one vote works this time around as well. He's guilty.

One of the most controversial decisions was the acquittal of Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra on charges of assets concealment in 2001. Thaksin escaped conviction on technical grounds by 8 votes to 7, although only 4 of the judges hearing the case actually found him innocent. The retiring president of the Constitutional Court declared in 2002 that he had "witnessed many subtle attempts by politicians to sway judges" and had "felt strong pressure from the pro-Thaksin mob."

Sources:

http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?p...1&ccrpage=8 Acquittal of Thaksin

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1471779.stm BBC, Thaksin's 2001 Ruling

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/09/30...cs_30084741.php Somchai Faces Bribery Investigation

Edited October 22, 2008 by frodo

[AlKing]

http://www.bangkokpost.com/211008_News/21Oct2008_news06.php

Land case sets a precedent for officials

State employees now have to abide by the anti-corruption law, writes Parista Yuthamanop

The thing that suprise me is that FIDF walks free. They should have disqualified Thaksin wife's bid as it is against the law. They are there to see that the bidding was fair and square. If they did not disqulified the winner, and award to Noble, FIDF should be faced with discipline charges, just like what Somchai is now facing (charged for not doing his job well in another land case 8 years ago).

Noble should file damage charges against FIDF, as they should have won the auction and make billions now. Noble should also petition that they sales to Thaksin's wife is against the law, and the land should be sold to them.

I am quite sure (no proof) that FIDF got a cut in the deal. FIDF should be brought to justice. Sound fair?

[LuckyFive8888]

http://www.bangkokpost.com/211008_News/21Oct2008_news06.php

Land case sets a precedent for officials

State employees now have to abide by the anti-corruption law, writes Parista Yuthamanop

The thing that suprise me is that FIDF walks free. They should have disqualified Thaksin wife's bid as it is against the law. They are there to see that the bidding was fair and square. If they did not disqulified the winner, and award to Noble, FIDF should be faced with discipline charges, just like what Somchai is now facing (charged for not doing his job well in another land case 8 years ago).

Noble should file damage charges against FIDF, as they should have won the auction and make billions now. Noble should also petition that they sales to Thaksin's wife is against the law, and the land should be sold to them.

I am quite sure (no proof) that FIDF got a cut in the deal. FIDF should be brought to justice. Sound fair?

you're kidding right? do you think they can say no to thaksin during his time? heard about 'conflict of interest'?

[hammered]

BigBuddha Posted Today, 2008-10-22 07:17:21

Accusing without any evidence is easy...what about the huge insurance companies who are also taking their money and investing into the weapons trading...this kind of thought is endless ....and doesn't have any bearings whatsoever....

I wonder who is pathetic and uninformed where do you get your resources from....you get it all from the big mouths screamers that are using manipulative means in the media to establish their dirty greedy works of filling their own pockets.....it's all corruption and politics...both "evil"....I prefer to choose the evil that is affecting me and majority of the people in Thailand for the good....now it is total chaos and destructiveness ......just wait and see if the PAD and their bunch of corrupt and greedy rich will get the steering wheel of running Thailand.....dig deep man.....you may not be safe in Thailand anymore...anarchy and chaos and crime will be the destiny for Thailand....

Wakie, wakie yes are you aware of the shit Thailand is now in......

pschef you got balls to respond...hope others will join in to spice up this onesided Thaksin complainers forum

I promised myself I wouldn't do this...

The truth is the economy was already on the upward swing before Thaksin even came in to power, he was lucky with that. Big Buddha said the poor prospered? Really? Well they certainly had more access to credit, which looks a lot like money to the poorly educated but hopefully you and I know better.

I will grant you that Thaksin did do a number of nice (albeit small) handouts to schools in the poorest provinces and the 30 baht healthcare scheme (whilst it has its problems) was a good step, and these often went overlooked and was certainly to his credit, but even these good acts were far outweighed by his gross abuse of power, corruption and his sickening human rights record. The man has the blood of thousands on his hands.

He had no professional/political ethics at all and whilst that sadly is often overlooked in business, the leader of a Nation must be held to a higher standard of scrutiny, he should be the one who provides the best example (if not him, than who?) and so ultimately it is in this that he failed all of Thailand.

He, alone, is responsible for dragging the international reputation of all Thai people through the mud, rich and poor, from North, South, East and West, because the rest of the world will rightly question how the majority of Thai people could choose a man like this to represent them in the global community.

He has tarnished Thailand's image like no other single person has ever done to a Nation (well except figures like Marcos, Pinochet and Hitler I suppose), but not to worry ultimately BigBhudda your argument is moot.

Your whinges are too late, thankfully he has been found guilty by the court, he is now a fugitive and will not be able to come to power until 74 years of age.

Hopefully Thai people can now work on taking the next steps on getting back to normal, there is still a lot to do and yes Thailand is still in the "shit" but this was an important hurdle that had to be overcome.

Here's a thought for the Thaksin lovers: - If only he had the foresight to donate a portion of his gains from the Temasek deal in the form of a few more schools around the country..

Da silva, thks for responding...as the economy on a upward swing is ofcourse afterwards easy to say...but then how come it suddenly plummeted when he got ousted...you see this kind of reasoning doesn't hold ground to me....he was also the one who dares to thumb his nose to the IMF .....and gave Thailand its proudness back and say we don't need your loans...we will manage thank you...and got Thailand out of the debts....He knowing that the borrower will be the servant of the lender......Will Thailand now Thaksin is out ...be the slave of the IMF, Worldbank....to save Thailand from its economic nosedive....looks like an IMF conspiracy too in a way....get Thaksin our last hurdle out of the way and IMF can take over Thailand...will that happen soon in the near future?...just wait and see...as far as democratic dictatorships concerns...look at PI...with Marcos...he ruled with Love and strictness...look at Soeharto....look at South Africa.....Look at Rhodesia(zimbabwe) Look esp. at Irak....bad, bad guy of a dictator ruler ...ousted by the cowboys of the US....what a mess...... they all are not ready for total democracy all these countries need some strong man to keep things together....and now for decades these countries went back to savagery .......what evil would you like to choose...corrupt dictators...keeping most everyone happy, country organised, flourishing or..... anarchy and chaos, savagery, greedy warlords, generals, politicians only concern for their pockets.......watch the past of Thailand....always divided...HM The King had to intervene to unite the country again....will this happen again soon...that the fractions are so divided that due to lack of a strong leader...as far as Thailand getting it together after this hurdle of getting Thaksin out....remains to be seen....the only thing we learn from history is that we never learn from history and it will repeat again.....I believe it will take years now for Thailand to recover......choose between the two evils....let's hope that the pro-government, pro- Thaksin group doesn't get fed up and clobber the minority of PAD nothing doers and screamers as it can end up in massive blood baths and the Army needs to step in and control the masses again....There goes the democracy....as far as the international image... I totally disagree.....not too many countries approved the coup....that in itself is a great set back to democracy....and look what a big mess it brought about.....

I would love to see the PAD take over the country give it a year and see what a bloody bloodbaths are going to come....bunch of nothing doers to me....only instigated by a few influential screamers and greedy pocket fillers....who only scream and complain...but once they are put into the intricate and complex seat of governing and ruling a nation with a variety of ethnic differences.....their screams will soon be put to a halt as they will themselves be the victims of the "guillotine" they themselves have invented.....

According to the Economist the GDP of Thailand from 2003 to 2007 was:

2003 7.1% Thaksin

2004 6.3% Thaksin

2005 4.5% Thaksin

2006 5.0% Thaksin and Junta

2007 4.5% Junta

It is not accurate to say the economy plummetted after he left office. It would b more accurat eto say during the latter years of Thaksin the economy weakend and stayed pretty much at this level after his ouster.

[Thai at Heart]

The whole 5:4 issue is absolutely irrelevant in my opinion. They have him on a point of law, and reading that there is no appeal, he really is in a jam now.I take it to be a pretty sure fact that Thaksin won't be coming back anytime soon. To change a constitution is one thing, to change de facto legal decisions in criminal cases has to be beyond the pail. I am 99.9999% sure he is yesterday's man in terms of politics on a personal level. However, TIT and he will try every which way he can to get around it but I just don't see how.

He can probably prove reasonably to the UK that it is politically motivated. So he will probably get asylum. I would imagine he is absolutely furious with the situation, and trying to plot a way through this.

I see this is the first in a long chain of events that will eventually get to the point that the PAD steps down and Thailand can get on with business. What the outcome will be and where this process moves from here is absolutely vital for Thailand's future.

Will PAD get it's way 100%? I am not sure, but I doubt it. This whole process appears to be extremely well choreographed to insure that Thaksin cannot come back. So one would assume that change of quite a major sort is on the way. I don't see that there has been overwhelming support for PADs "New Politics" among the people who's voices really count. It is superficially appealing, but is in many people's eyes a retrograde step for the country.

Will "New Politics" stop corruption? I think no.

This ruling alone may be the start of reducing the hold that business has on politics in the country without anyone having to radically change the parliamentary structure. People from business are let's not forget on all sides of the political spectrum in this situation. There is no country in Asia where business is so intimately tied to government at either central or local level. The laws are all already on the books, and with proper and fair execution can go a long way to cleaning up Thai politics. Will that happen? Let's see. Yesterday was possibly the start of a new era in Thai politics without having to radically alter the representation in the lower house. Is politics anywhere in the world entirely corruption free?

We have been told that Thai politics is different, so it needs a different approach. So called "New Politics". Well connections between business, politics and positions of power have been alive and well in Thailand and elsewhere for ever and no cosmetic changes in the lower house is going to eradicate that. I don't see that Thailand can go through a business practice or cultural labotomy. Corruption is everywhere in the world, but legal enforcement of corruption laws can as we saw yesterday hold people to account for the actions.

The army doesn't want a coup, unheard of. The dem's are not co-operating with anything, the PAD taking intractable positions, the PPP pushing forward to change the constitution, and the upper echelons wanting to avoid being publicly involved. All apparently very hard and firm positions. Something will have to give or what remains directly afterwards will be very divisive and will be no doubt challenged when there is a change at the very top. Face in defeat and continuity must be achieved for most of the players of this game or these problems will arise again in the very near future.

Nixon got caught red handed and the system handled it and got on with it. Can Thailand find a way to change enough and yet start to function governmentally in a very short period of time?

Is this ruling good for Thailand in the long run? It should be, but this may be only a selective enforcement and business as usual may be returned once this all blows away which will be a terrible shame. Is it good in the short term? Well it hurts a given family greatly and makes the PPP position weaker.

Does it get Thailand much closer to sorting out the whole problem? I don't think so.

Edited October 22, 2008 by Thai at Heart