Bangkok Post Wine Writer Whines About Wine!

[bkkjames]

Got this from a website in Chiang Mai, fyi, from 2007....

Even local wineries are not exempt from the clutches of the revenue service. All grape wine - from the motherland or afar - is taxed at a flat rate of 176.5% and an interior tax of 21.2%, with additional - though less hefty - import duties on foreign wines.

Thanks for that. That would indicate there is no "faux duty" just a very high tax even on Thai wine, pushing 200 percent. That is a much higher tax rate than for spirits and beer, YES?

If I agree with you will you return in a few years time with some drinkable local wine?

[Jingthing]

I agree with you will you return in a few years time with some drinkable local wine?

Do I look like Barack Obama?

The tax rates if we have the exact numbers aren't a subjective thing. Some numbers are higher than others. I am just asking. It appears that the Thai government in its infinite wisdom is punishing wine, so who is paying them to do that , ha ha ha ...

I am happy I started this thread for one reason, someone posted some evidence that the Thai wine is not charged a "faux duty" which is a falsehood that I previously thought was true. But also, the same item verified the still very high tax rate on Thai wine. You don't have to be a wine expert to be interested in this subject. Just a curious wine lover living in Thailand, an unfortunate country to be a wine lover in.

Edited November 18, 2008 by Jingthing

[polecat]

Here's the truth: I just listed 4 good Thai wines. And no one's interested.

Is it just easier to go along with the cliche that wine here sucks?

[bkkjames]

I agree with you will you return in a few years time with some drinkable local wine?

Do I look like Barack Obama?

The tax rates if we have the exact numbers aren't a subjective thing. Some numbers are higher than others. I am just asking. It appears that the Thai government in its infinite wisdom is punishing wine, so who is paying them to do that , ha ha ha ...

I am happy I started this thread for one reason, someone posted some evidence that the Thai wine is not charged a "faux duty" which is a falsehood that I previously thought was true. But also, the same item verified the still very high tax rate on Thai wine. You don't have to be a wine expert to be interested in this subject. Just a curious wine lover living in Thailand, an unfortunate country to be a wine lover in.

So stopping whining about it and have a glass - chai yoooo

[Jingthing]

Here's the truth: I just listed 4 good Thai wines. And no one's interested.

Is it just easier to go along with the cliche that wine here sucks?

Pole, for the record, I believe you, but if I am going to spend 800 B I am still not buying Thai wine. Not everyone is as price sensitive as I am. If there was a very good Thai wine for 500B I would be interested.

Edited November 18, 2008 by Jingthing

[polecat]

Thanks Jing, I was on the verge of tears there. I almost went and told my mum.

(<<< and you can see how mean she is)

Edited November 18, 2008 by polecat

[ray08]

Governments normally impose high taxes to protect local industry , 1200 workers is not exactly an industry ,so the duty is just a money grab, as for Thai wine ,the conditions are just not right ,IMO better to accept Thailand will never be a wine making country , i prefer glass of water to a thai wine, and i hate water.

[Jingthing]

Governments normally impose high taxes to protect local industry , 1200 workers is not exactly an industry ,so the duty is just a money grab, as for Thai wine ,the conditions are just not right ,IMO better to accept Thailand will never be a wine making country , i prefer glass of water to a thai wine, and i hate water.

You kind of totally missed the point, sorry. The THAI wine industry is massively taxed. The Thai government isn't protecting them, it is SUFFOCATING them!

[bkkjames]

Governments normally impose high taxes to protect local industry , 1200 workers is not exactly an industry ,so the duty is just a money grab, as for Thai wine ,the conditions are just not right ,IMO better to accept Thailand will never be a wine making country , i prefer glass of water to a thai wine, and i hate water.

You kind of totally missed the point, sorry. The THAI wine industry is massively taxed. The Thai government isn't protecting them, it is SUFFOCATING them!

I think you should lodge your complaint with the Thai Ministry of Health, the one's behind increasing alcohol taxation, advertising and so on.

Wining to us won't change a thing.

[DP25]

The reason for Thailand's high excise taxes on wine, even domestic wine, is to an attempt to keep alcohol consumption, and it's profits, in the hands of the existing Thai alcohol manufacturers. The alcohol market in Thailand is massive, and they want the money to stay in the hands of companies making Chang and Mehkong, Singha, etc. They want people drinking stuff that the big Thai companies are already dominate in. Wine is also seen as a luxury good primarily consumed by the wealthy and by foreigners, and they are not as sensitive to price, so why not tax them.

[Fun2Fun]

Here's the truth: I just listed 4 good Thai wines. And no one's interested.

Is it just easier to go along with the cliche that wine here sucks?

I will try your advise and give this one a go PB Valley tempranillo (reserve 2004).

If i can find one that is

Edited November 20, 2008 by Fun2Fun

[Ulysses G.]

Here's the truth: I just listed 4 good Thai wines. And no one's interested.

Is it just easier to go along with the cliche that wine here sucks?

I do not enjoy wine of any kind, no matter how expensive.

I am not expecting to like Thai wine either.

[Jingthing]

Governments normally impose high taxes to protect local industry , 1200 workers is not exactly an industry ,so the duty is just a money grab, as for Thai wine ,the conditions are just not right ,IMO better to accept Thailand will never be a wine making country , i prefer glass of water to a thai wine, and i hate water.

You kind of totally missed the point, sorry. The THAI wine industry is massively taxed. The Thai government isn't protecting them, it is SUFFOCATING them!

I think you should lodge your complaint with the Thai Ministry of Health, the one's behind increasing alcohol taxation, advertising and so on.

Wining to us won't change a thing.

Excuse me, but where did you get the idea that I started this post as an effort to change anything? I am not a powerful Thai, are you? Obviously just trying to ferret out some truthiness (sic).

The reason for Thailand's high excise taxes on wine, even domestic wine, is to an attempt to keep alcohol consumption, and it's profits, in the hands of the existing Thai alcohol manufacturers. The alcohol market in Thailand is massive, and they want the money to stay in the hands of companies making Chang and Mehkong, Singha, etc. They want people drinking stuff that the big Thai companies are already dominate in. Wine is also seen as a luxury good primarily consumed by the wealthy and by foreigners, and they are not as sensitive to price, so why not tax them.

Exactamundo!

Edited November 20, 2008 by Jingthing

[Samuian]

......edited.....

What about the 1500% duty on imports to protect this so-called industry?

.......edited...

if one looks at it as it represents some sort of fine, not tax, for the local produced stuff, well, one gets to the actual point of it!

[bkkjames]

Governments normally impose high taxes to protect local industry , 1200 workers is not exactly an industry ,so the duty is just a money grab, as for Thai wine ,the conditions are just not right ,IMO better to accept Thailand will never be a wine making country , i prefer glass of water to a thai wine, and i hate water.

You kind of totally missed the point, sorry. The THAI wine industry is massively taxed. The Thai government isn't protecting them, it is SUFFOCATING them!

I think you should lodge your complaint with the Thai Ministry of Health, the one's behind increasing alcohol taxation, advertising and so on.

Wining to us won't change a thing.

Excuse me, but where did you get the idea that I started this post as an effort to change anything? I am not a powerful Thai, are you? Obviously just trying to ferret out some truthiness (sic).

The reason for Thailand's high excise taxes on wine, even domestic wine, is to an attempt to keep alcohol consumption, and it's profits, in the hands of the existing Thai alcohol manufacturers. The alcohol market in Thailand is massive, and they want the money to stay in the hands of companies making Chang and Mehkong, Singha, etc. They want people drinking stuff that the big Thai companies are already dominate in. Wine is also seen as a luxury good primarily consumed by the wealthy and by foreigners, and they are not as sensitive to price, so why not tax them.

Exactamundo!

Back to JT's point though about high tax on Thai wine, combined with what is written above in bold, taxing Thai wine has no affect on this group because nobody in this group would drink it.

[JohnBKKK]

Thai wine is also seen as a luxury good primarily consumed by the wealthy and by foreigners

[Jingthing]

Thai wine is also seen as a luxury good primarily consumed by the wealthy and by foreigners

So we have devolved to hieroglyphic communication only then? Very well ...

:D

[bkkjames]

This thread is like one of those nagging ingrown hairs on your ass that you need to keep picking at.

Painful, but keep coming back for more.

[DP25]

Thai wine is also seen as a luxury good primarily consumed by the wealthy and by foreigners

I said wine, not Thai wine in specific.

[jackspratt]

......edited.....

What about the 1500% duty on imports to protect this so-called industry?

.......edited...

if one looks at it as it represents some sort of fine, not tax, for the local produced stuff, well, one gets to the actual point of it!

What it does seem to represent (in the absence of some real evidence) is a good round number plucked out of thin air.

Just do the numbers - under a 1500% tax, a bottle of imported wine, with a CIF value of A$5, would be subject to TBH1650 duty (based on an exchange rate of A$1 = 22 TBH).

In fact, a typical Oz wine you see here, which would sell for A$10-15 in Oz, would be priced at about TBH600 - 800 in Tesco. The current rate of import duty on Oz wine is actually about 30%, under the Oz - Thai Free Trade Agreement. The duty rate on wine from other countries is (generally) 50 - 60%.

Internal taxes (VAT, luxury tax etc) will obviously add to this, but it seems a long stretch to get to 1500%.

[Jingthing]

This thread is like one of those nagging ingrown hairs on your ass that you need to keep picking at.

Painful, but keep coming back for more.

Never had such an arse hair, maybe you are picking too much?

[Sarge]

There is great colombard and tempranillo up in Khao Yai. The vineyards up there (PB Valley, Granmonte etc) are breathtakingly beautiful and are staffed by experienced pros. The result is some very good wine.

I know the area, drive past with my motor heading south towards the capital many times. Agree beautiful scenery, next time I'll make a point to visit the vineyard. Tempranillo is a robust black grape often usued to make Rioja wines. Prolly one the most popular Spanish brand abroad. Curious to see how it adapts to Thai climate and soil, and of course technique used by Thais winemakers. I'd also like to find out if they use (or know) barrique, which is used to produce certain limited-production fine reds.

This thread is like one of those nagging ingrown hairs on your ass that you need to keep picking at.

Painful, but keep coming back for more.

good one, filed away for future reference; kinda listening to politicians on TV - they more they talk, they less we want to hear

[jackspratt]

Isn't it funny how a few facts can dry up a post on TV

[puipuitom]

Back on topic (which was WINE TAXES if you need reminding): does anyone know specifically how the TAX on local Thai wine (which is obviously very high) compares with the tax on Australian imports (which nows gets a slight break) and for example French imports?

Sorry, old data of 1999, but givces some idea

HERE SOME EXAMPLE, BASED ON LATEST CUSTOMS TARIFF ISSUED ON JANUARY NO.

(23/1999) ( 55% + 10% + 1.392405 + 10% + VAT 10%)

1. ASSUMING CIF VALUE IS USD 100.-

2. DUTY 55% USD 55.-

3. SPECIAL DUTY 10% ON 21 USD 5.5

4. EXCISE DUTY 1.392405 ON 1+2+3 USD 223.481

5. INTERIOR TAX 10% ON 4 USD 22.348

6. VAT 10% ON 1+2+3+4+5 USD 40.63

ACCORDING TO ABOVE, GIVING THE TOTALLY TO PAY IS USD 346.959/CIF VALUE

But .. why not to set up a member's organisation, and import together a 20 ft container ? 1200 cases of 12 bottles. 6 different types, 200 members = 6 cases per member.

Regards, Harry Romijn, www dot thaitrade dot nl

[jackspratt]

Back on topic (which was WINE TAXES if you need reminding): does anyone know specifically how the TAX on local Thai wine (which is obviously very high) compares with the tax on Australian imports (which nows gets a slight break) and for example French imports?

Sorry, old data of 1999, but givces some idea

HERE SOME EXAMPLE, BASED ON LATEST CUSTOMS TARIFF ISSUED ON JANUARY NO.

(23/1999) ( 55% + 10% + 1.392405 + 10% + VAT 10%)

1. ASSUMING CIF VALUE IS USD 100.-

2. DUTY 55% USD 55.-

3. SPECIAL DUTY 10% ON 21 USD 5.5

4. EXCISE DUTY 1.392405 ON 1+2+3 USD 223.481

5. INTERIOR TAX 10% ON 4 USD 22.348

6. VAT 10% ON 1+2+3+4+5 USD 40.63

ACCORDING TO ABOVE, GIVING THE TOTALLY TO PAY IS USD 346.959/CIF VALUE

But .. why not to set up a member's organisation, and import together a 20 ft container ? 1200 cases of 12 bottles. 6 different types, 200 members = 6 cases per member.

Regards, Harry Romijn, www dot thaitrade dot nl

Sorry Harry, but it gives no idea at all, unless:

- the duty rate is the same

- the special duty still exists, and at the same rate

- the excise rate has not changed since 1999

- the interior tax is still applied, and at the same rate

- the VAT rate is still 10%

Based on the above information you have posted, I would be loath to commit to an importation of a container load of wine (or anything else) which was under your control.

[Fun2Fun]

Tried a PB Valley, Pirom Khao Yai Reserva Tempranillo 2006 (1290 THB in Villa Marked)

Rated on a scale from 1 to 6:

Taste: 3

Bouquet: 2

Value for Money: 1

[polecat]

Tried a PB Valley, Pirom Khao Yai Reserva Tempranillo 2006 (1290 THB in Villa Marked)

Rated on a scale from 1 to 6:

Taste: 3

Bouquet: 2

Value for Money: 1

Well, that's disappointing. Sorry you didn't enjoy it Fun2Fun - the only complaints I've heard about this wine before were that it lacked a little in structure. I guess it's not to everyone's taste, though.

You paid way too much for that bottle! I know it doesn't help after the fact, but 800 baht is the guide price for this wine. No wonder you gave it a 1 on that front. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Villa are thieves when it comes to wine - don't trust them!

[bkkjames]

Tried a PB Valley, Pirom Khao Yai Reserva Tempranillo 2006 (1290 THB in Villa Marked)

Rated on a scale from 1 to 6:

Taste: 3

Bouquet: 2

Value for Money: 1

Well, that's disappointing. Sorry you didn't enjoy it Fun2Fun - the only complaints I've heard about this wine before were that it lacked a little in structure. I guess it's not to everyone's taste, though.

You paid way too much for that bottle! I know it doesn't help after the fact, but 800 baht is the guide price for this wine. No wonder you gave it a 1 on that front. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Villa are thieves when it comes to wine - don't trust them!

Where do you suggest to find these Fine Thai wines? I was just on the wine connection website and no sign of it.

[spidermike007]

Back on topic (which was WINE TAXES if you need reminding): does anyone know specifically how the TAX on local Thai wine (which is obviously very high) compares with the tax on Australian imports (which nows gets a slight break) and for example French imports?

Sorry, old data of 1999, but givces some idea

HERE SOME EXAMPLE, BASED ON LATEST CUSTOMS TARIFF ISSUED ON JANUARY NO.

(23/1999) ( 55% + 10% + 1.392405 + 10% + VAT 10%)

1. ASSUMING CIF VALUE IS USD 100.-

2. DUTY 55% USD 55.-

3. SPECIAL DUTY 10% ON 21 USD 5.5

4. EXCISE DUTY 1.392405 ON 1+2+3 USD 223.481

5. INTERIOR TAX 10% ON 4 USD 22.348

6. VAT 10% ON 1+2+3+4+5 USD 40.63

ACCORDING TO ABOVE, GIVING THE TOTALLY TO PAY IS USD 346.959/CIF VALUE

But .. why not to set up a member's organisation, and import together a 20 ft container ? 1200 cases of 12 bottles. 6 different types, 200 members = 6 cases per member.

Regards, Harry Romijn, www dot thaitrade dot nl

Sorry Harry, but it gives no idea at all, unless:

- the duty rate is the same

- the special duty still exists, and at the same rate

- the excise rate has not changed since 1999

- the interior tax is still applied, and at the same rate

- the VAT rate is still 10%

Based on the above information you have posted, I would be loath to commit to an importation of a container load of wine (or anything else) which was under your control.

This would all be fine, if the info was correct. Why customs publishes the 55% rate, I am not sure. It is 430%!

It is more than likely a PR ploy on the part of embarrased government officials. I know for a fact

that imported wine is taxed at 430%. As far as I know, this is the highest import wine tax IN THE WORLD! I was told that a group

of Thai wineries (monsoon valley, and the other purveyors of boones farm type garbage wines) lobbied some of the Thai senators,

and got them to pass the anti import wine bill. It was supposedly to "protect" the Thai wine industry. Unfortunately, the reality is that

Thailand in their xenophobic zeal, is depriving themselves of an estimated 5 to 10 billion baht per year, which they would earn on

imported wine, if it were taxed reasonably, at 100%. The wine industry here would flourish, as there are many Thai people, and

of course many ex-pats, and tourists who would avail themselves of a great selection of reasonably priced, and high quality wines.

Instead, people are having to pay 2,000 baht for a bottle that I can get in California for $8.00. I went to a nice restaurant (Dr. Frogs)

in Samui recently. The house wine was gato negro, for 1,450 baht per bottle. This wine is $4.00 in Los Angeles, and nobody that I know

drinks it, as it is garbage wine. And it is the house wine at one of the best restaurants on the island. It is a shame that Thailand has to

appear to be so ridiculous, and so unreasonable in the eyes of the world, on this issue. And all for what? Protectionism? Lack of vision

to be sure. Lack of wisdom to be sure. But protectionism of what? An industry to creates a horrific product. They cannot compete with

the foreign market without this silly taxation. Oh well

[NanaFoods]

Actually, I bought some Thai wine at a place called Fly Now Outlet. It was expensive - about 700-800 baht, as I recall.

I can say it didn't suck. Wasn't anything to write home about, but it was drinkable.

Cant' recall the name, however.