Were You As Nationalistic About Your Own Country As You Are About Thailand?

[dave9988]

I respect the Thai pride and Nationalism, as a guest in this country. Same as I respect the house rules when I am a guest in someones house.

i second that!

It is my observation that most forms of Thai Nationalism alienate large segments of the population and are much less about culture as they are a means to control the masses.

I am just wondering where my Thai spouse fits into the equation as she finds many of the 'rules' in her country silly and archaic. Is she a traitor to the nation? Should she be stripped of her citizenship and have it handed to a farang who is really more Thai than her?

And of course, be respectful and follow the rules of the house. Smiling and playing along is not the same as feverishly believing that you yourself are Thai.

Edited December 21, 2008 by dave9988

[dave9988]

While I am not a part of Thailand, I'd certainly like to be, as I love it more than I ever loved my own country.

What social outlook of freedom of choice??? 1984 is increasing rapidly in the west!

I have much more choice in Thailand than ever I did in my PC country.

The last time I returned there ( my country, in the free west ), I was treated like a criminal for being a single man visiting Thailand. Bureaucratic scum.

The strongest supporters of all things Thai always seem to be the staunchest critics of the West.

[Scott]

I have lived in Thailand for many years. I am not Thai, not a Thai citizen and never will be. I have my own country, which I still love, warts and all. I don't much care for nationalism there or here. As a guest here, it's in my best interest to treat the rules, laws and cultural mores with the respect that any guest should.

[Geekfreaklover]

I just think that many Farangs enjoy living in this country so much that they will bend over backwards, or forwards or jump through hoops to be able to remain here.

Nothing wrong with trying. However, it is important to keep in mind that foreigners are not seen as part of the social fabric, nor will we ever be. We are curious bunch to kept at arms length and watched. We are admired for our western education and at the same time frowned upon for our impolitness.

As I say nothing wrong with trying. And TRYING takes a lot more than singing the national songs and wearing different colour T-shirts. You have to start with the written language and take it from there.

[iBurger]

I just think that many Farangs enjoy living in this country so much that they will bend over backwards, or forwards or jump through hoops to be able to remain here.

Nothing wrong with trying. However, it is important to keep in mind that foreigners are not seen as part of the social fabric, nor will we ever be. We are curious bunch to kept at arms length and watched. We are admired for our western education and at the same time frowned upon for our impolitness.

As I say nothing wrong with trying. And TRYING takes a lot more than singing the national songs and wearing different colour T-shirts. You have to start with the written language and take it from there.

Utter rubbish. Simply by being, we are part of the social fabric and therefore seen. How you personally are viewed over and above that basic truth, is then up to your own "fabric", character, and survival instincts.

[Xangsamhua]

I just think that many Farangs enjoy living in this country so much that they will bend over backwards, or forwards or jump through hoops to be able to remain here.

Nothing wrong with trying. However, it is important to keep in mind that foreigners are not seen as part of the social fabric, nor will we ever be. We are curious bunch to kept at arms length and watched. We are admired for our western education and at the same time frowned upon for our impolitness.

As I say nothing wrong with trying. And TRYING takes a lot more than singing the national songs and wearing different colour T-shirts. You have to start with the written language and take it from there.

Utter rubbish. Simply by being, we are part of the social fabric and therefore seen. How you personally are viewed over and above that basic truth, is then up to your own "fabric", character, and survival instincts.

I agree with Geekfreaklover. No matter how much a westerner may be treated with respect and kindness, he or she simply doesn't count in the same way that a Thai person does. Farangs complain that they don't get recognition for their efforts. It's because, for Thais, they're not really part of the network of recognition and reciprocation. It doesn't worry me. I feel I'm well looked after by my Thai patrons, but I don't think I'm part of the Thai social fabric.

[onlooker]

" Todd Lavell... is an American writer who provides an example of how a farang can be so Thai-like. His articles ... often underscore what is deemed to be the true value of Thainess, which is opposite to and more superior than that of farangness."

--Pavin Chachavalpongpun

Thai Professor, visiting Professor of SOAS, London University

Expert on Thai nationalism and Thai identity

Is there anything more that needs to be added...?

Something else that could be added is that Todd Thongdee / Lavelle was basically shagging his way through as may Thai chicks as possible when I knew him in the late 90s. I knew a couple of the girls that got the clap from him.

Mayฺe that's deemed to be atrue value of Thainess - pretending to be one thing in public and another in private

[PhilHarries]

Spiny AND PhilHarries ARE THE SAME PERSON

No I am not!

Spiny AND PhilHarries ARE THE SAME PERSON

No he is not!

So it's goodnight from me.

and goodnight from him.

[Ulysses G.]

I always have a good laugh at these nationalistic threads on the forum.

On one hand you have those bleating on about how they go around humming the Thai national anthem or how they only ever eat Thai food. The "look at me, I am sooo much a Thai person and much more than the rest of you" ingratiates.

An on the other you have the negative <insert nation> bashers who whinge on about how their home country, and any other for that matter, is a pile of &lt;deleted&gt;. How Thailand is the best country on Earth and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

What these dangleberries forget is that had they been born their Utopian nationality, Thai, they wouldn't be here on this forum. Chances are they'd be scratching out a living in some dingy, sweaty shophouse selling scudsy knickknacks to tourists with more money in their wallet than they'll earn in a year. Either that or they'd be selling their bodies to stinking fellow countrymen, or if they're lucky rich tourists, in some sleazy bar.

To these types I say go look at your bank balance or your pension and ask yourself where did that money come from?

Thailand? I don't think so. Even if you can claim you are earning your money from the country your education and start up funds came from your home nation. Be grateful, don't p1ss on the hand that helped you stand and take those first few steps down the road of life. You have seen more of the world that the average Thai will ever do and you have had an education that most Thais would cut off their right arm for.

As for the question in the OP. I am nationalistic about my home country and would defend it against all comers. As for Thailand I respect the nation, it's people in general and it's customs but I see things as they are warts and all.

As for the esteemed professor above I wonder which shop on the KSR he got his PhD from?

Another excellent post by PhilHarries. This guy is good!

[papajohn]

Sometimes we forget we all LIVE ON THE SAME Planet !

So nationalism and our human things and nonsense are all shit .

Being ignorant is another thing ofcourse .

Just ask any of the 1 billion Muslims. Do the live on the same planet?

[Geekfreaklover]

Utter rubbish. Simply by being, we are part of the social fabric and therefore seen. How you personally are viewed over and above that basic truth, is then up to your own "fabric", character, and survival instincts.

Once you start to understand the Thai social class system then you will perhaps begin to understand what I am trying to say. Difficult to explain as our western social structure does not work in the same fashion.

I can't even begin to understand it, but I am trying.

Farangs are not within the Thai class social system, unless they speak read and write fluent Thai and have the ability to anaylise situations in a Thai way. Ability to utilise and respond to the nuances of the smile (to which there are 13 or 14 different types) To be able to meet a fellow Thai and be able to put him or her in a certain part of the invisible social ladder within perhaps the exchange of a few words. Observing how that individual carries themselves thus forming assumptions of family background, religion, education etc. And THEN acting in accordance to those observations.

It is a very complex social model I don't pretend to really understand it. I just know that I am not part of it, and having lived and worked here for almost a decade know of no other Farang that is.

So stand up and sing the song. Buy the T-shirt. But don't fool yourself.

Edited December 21, 2008 by Geekfreaklover

[Huey]

Sometimes we forget we all LIVE ON THE SAME Planet !

So nationalism and our human things and nonsense are all shit .

Being ignorant is another thing ofcourse .

Just ask any of the 1 billion Muslims. Do the live on the same planet?

They told me to ask you the same thing.

[dave9988]

I agree. When you see a farang trying to show off to Thais on his level of Thainess, the Thais have a smile on their face which I read as "Look at this goofy fool"... like the farang is the comic relief in a sitcom. I do not speak Thai, but I feel that I am fairly good at reading human reactions and body language (its part of my profession) and that has always been my impression (although prehaps I am making personal projections here and I am wrong).

Similarly speaking, you have the farang and his wife and her friends and her telling them "He like Eat Spicy. He love Som Tum", him with a big grin on his face like he is oh very so proud of himself and her friends saying "Woooooow". Its quite painful to watch.

Edited December 22, 2008 by dave9988

[TAWP]

So I was reading another thread where a poster's life was physically threatened because he stated that he did not stand up for the National Anthem at 6pm and it got me thinking that, reading these boards, it seems that many farang are very serious when it comes to Thai pride and Nationalism. Despite not having Thai citizenship and very few legal rights in the country, many farang appear ready to cut anyone's throat who does not feel the same level of Nationalistic pride as they do or does not wear the right color t-shirt.

And often it seems, that many of the principles they feel so passionately about, go against the Western social outlook of freedom of choice. Why is it that things you would never accept or believe in in your own country all of sudden become acceptable and enforcable to the death in Thailand?

Do you feel that you are more apart of Thailand than you were your own country?

Physically threatened? What kind of lowlife would do that?

Anyway, as I don't believe in borders or nationalistic ideals of any kind, I respect Thailand's as much as my own. Which is probably as much as Thai people respect mine...

[Gaccha]

It is my observation that most forms of Thai Nationalism alienate large segments of the population and are much less about culture as they are a means to control the masses.

It is scary to how close to being on the money dave9988 is. Here are some more quotes from the interesting Professor Pavin Chachavalpongpun, expert on Thai nationalism and Thai identity:

"Thai identity is elusive because of a lack of cultural coherence or uniqueness, so it is easier for its promoters to imagine what is not Thai"

"Thainess...is able to seize power because it can generate mass support for what is often forwarded as the defence of national survival."

"The adherence to Khawnpenthai [Thainess]... is a part of the exercise of Thai nationalism through which power holders portray themselves as legitimate players formulating legitimate policy"

"[The power holders] high degree of power helps create the official version of Thainess that masks political unattractiveness as well as elites' private accummulation"

"Thais comply with this variable nationhood and perceive it as though it is part of their chit winyan, or spirit... This explains why they never look beyond the boundaries of Thai nationhood, and why it always remains predominant, ultimate and supremacist."

"according to this... self-image, Thais are not guilty of anything and blame is always placed upon foreigners"

My favourite quote from him:

"The farang... have continously represented a real enough threat to the power interests of the Thai leaders"

and one to take home with you:

"The very idea of nationalism being a rational and self-conscious attempt to achieve autonomy and liberty is demonstrably false. Indeed, nationalism as an ideology is irrational, narrow, hateful and destructive"-- Partha Chatterjee

Edited December 22, 2008 by Gaccha