Hillsborough ...discussion

[sanmiguel]

Its human nature to push your way into a must see game, so whilst this obviously caused the event, they cant be blamed, IMO it was a tragic accident that could have been prevented, but no one, including all clubs couldnt really have given a sh7t about football fans then.

Anyway i was at this game at Hillsboro one of Newcastle fanzines has wrote a good article about, if memory serves though i was in the seats and wasnt aware what was going on, in these games we used to take 15000 to Sheffield.

The paragraph starting "A crowd of 41,134 is recorded for this game" shows this wasnt the first time crushing was a problem here. -

http://www.true-faith.co.uk/tf/features.ns...ca?OpenDocument

off topic but I for one would love to see Sheff Wed back in the top league, theyre undoubtably a very big club.

[sheff_mick]

Its human nature to push your way into a must see game, so whilst this obviously caused the event, they cant be blamed, IMO it was a tragic accident that could have been prevented, but no one, including all clubs couldnt really have given a sh7t about football fans then.

Anyway i was at this game at Hillsboro one of Newcastle fanzines has wrote a good article about, if memory serves though i was in the seats and wasnt aware what was going on, in these games we used to take 15000 to Sheffield.

The paragraph starting "A crowd of 41,134 is recorded for this game" shows this wasnt the first time crushing was a problem here. -

http://www.true-faith.co.uk/tf/features.ns...ca?OpenDocument

off topic but I for one would love to see Sheff Wed back in the top league, theyre undoubtably a very big club.

Thank you very much SM for a much needed, unbiased and what i consider fair assessment of the incident.

Thanks also for your kind thoughts and remarks about the owls and their present status in the champions league.

RIP 96, you will never be forgotten.......respectfully

[sheff_mick]

EDIT

So many incidents have happened over the years that should have served as an example and as warnings, but no, we carry on in the same negligent ways, safety wise ignorant and all that it encompasses

please read this mick http://downloads.hfdinfo.com/6HFDDutyOfCare.pdf

no one blames the people of sheffield, the south yorkshire police force and the FA were to blame, the ground was inadequate, as were many in those days. the leppings lane end was unsuitable (and still didnt hold the correct safety certificate, even after "improvements") to hold a huge game with huge numbers coming into it. your right, other grounds were just as bad.

You,ve said it all for me in this paragraph in regard to my secondary concerns and a genuine thanks for posting it kopite.

While it may not make up for the reason why no proper recognised certificate was held.

On SWFC,s part they employed a team of safety experts who advised them on the modifications ect. and they took it for granted, rightly or wrongly that this was o.k.

<deleted> were the authorities and the more importantly the incompetent F.A. " we only care about money and income " doing not making sure the correct safety certificate was held by the club and it was suitably policed ect. ???

FA in another context is applicable in their case.

You have, as i,ve already mentioned, encapsulated most of what my concerns are as an owls supporter

end of my edit

but, the police force on that day were a f***ing disgrace. as i said, please read the PDF, as should others.

Re the PDF, i read it yesterday kopite and yes it is good.

I,ve also read many other web sites via google since the RIP thread was started.and found many of them a good read along with comments of an unbiased nature, giving balanced thoughts and comments of what we have been trying to put acrossto each other.

I think it would be a fairer assessment re the police force if you could seperate the ones responsible for overseeing and controlling the situation for me that means the actual leadership responsible for the police-ing.

I know for certain that it was a minority of mindless thugs and idiots ( no let,s not call them supporters ) who i keep referring to and in doing so have tried to seperate them from the majority of genuine supporters who suffered as a consequence, who do not deserve to be lumped in the same way, and it should also apply to the police force.

I,ve only noticed a short while ago, the much appreciated seperation of the tributes and this the discussions

I,ve already posted a thank you to MiG to thank him for seperating the two issues in the RIP thread.

By doing so he has rightly humanised things, for me anyway.

He has displayed a very respectful and sensitive acknowledgement on the tragedy and the isues it brings to the fore via his moderating.

The priority being the rememberance of those who lost their lives and their loved ones left behind.

Closure needs to happen in a dignified way that,s befitting first of all for 96 and their loved ones and only then for the rest of us.

SM

[StevieH]

I know for certain that it was a minority of mindless thugs and idiots ( no let,s not call them supporters ) who i keep referring to and in doing so have tried to seperate them from the majority of genuine supporters who suffered as a consequence, who do not deserve to be lumped in the same way, and it should also apply to the police force.

you keep mentioning that and you're still wrong. your personal anecdotal evidence of an incident pales in comparison with an independent formal review. you're just wrong about this, get over it.

[sheff_mick]

I know for certain that it was a minority of mindless thugs and idiots ( no let,s not call them supporters ) who i keep referring to and in doing so have tried to seperate them from the majority of genuine supporters who suffered as a consequence, who do not deserve to be lumped in the same way, and it should also apply to the police force.

you keep mentioning that and you're still wrong. your personal anecdotal evidence of an incident pales in comparison with an independent formal review. you're just wrong about this, get over it.

The second word for you is OFF on this latest misinformed observation.

I wasn,t aware that a reasonable guy like kopite needed you to respond for him re my reply to him.

Those idiots can thank their lucky stars Taylor didn,t choose to investigate them further, as for the many eye witness statements on this, mine was not an isolated one, i can assure you.

Our local MP,s are well aware of our thoughts and observations in relation to them !!!!!

P.S.

Engaging ones brain first comes to mind when discuassing things on a forum

[StevieH]

I know for certain that it was a minority of mindless thugs and idiots ( no let,s not call them supporters ) who i keep referring to and in doing so have tried to seperate them from the majority of genuine supporters who suffered as a consequence, who do not deserve to be lumped in the same way, and it should also apply to the police force.

you keep mentioning that and you're still wrong. your personal anecdotal evidence of an incident pales in comparison with an independent formal review. you're just wrong about this, get over it.

The second word for you is OFF on this latest misinformed observation.

I wasn,t aware that a reasonable guy like kopite needed you to respond for him re my reply to him.

Those idiots can thank their lucky stars Taylor didn,t choose to investigate them further, as for the many eye witness statements on this, mine was not an isolated one, i can assure you.

Our local MP,s are well aware of our thoughts and observations in relation to them !!!!!

you continue to be offensive and to insult the memory of 96 innocent people who died at a football match by maintaining that fan behaviour was to blame in any way. your one personal isolated incident was not mentioned in the taylor report and as such has no bearing on the reasons that 96 innocent people died at a football match. your continued embarrassing pursuit of this line of argument can only mean that you are either a] a really tasteless wind-up merchant or b] too ignorant to realise the stupidity of your own words.

[sheff_mick]

Perhaps you haven,t got the message as to why this was opened as a separate thread yet, have you ???

MiG did so to enable other peoples observations on what they saw ect. ect. or think relating to all sides of Taylor report.

For and against.

We are not zombies and do engage our brains before posting our thoughts without having to accept things we consider are incorrect or covered.

A bit like yourself of course,but rest assured we all want the truth to come out in our varied opinions

The split was suggested a few days ago by several members to enable everyone to post their views, without disrespecting those who died.

The other half of the split continues in it,s rightful form and rightly so.

You can of course go on there and read an appropriate post of genuine respect for those who died and their loved ones.

As the title of this thread indicates, this one is about differing views and discussion, it is not about slagging posters off, just because they wish to offer their personal take on certain areas that are relevant to them.

SM

By the way, what gives with all the abusive language you seem to like using to get your arrogance across.

Just wondered and also if it is indeed not being disrespectful to our forum.

[sheff_mick]

I know for certain that it was a minority of mindless thugs and idiots ( no let,s not call them supporters ) who i keep referring to and in doing so have tried to seperate them from the majority of genuine supporters who suffered as a consequence, who do not deserve to be lumped in the same way, and it should also apply to the police force.

you keep mentioning that and you're still wrong. your personal anecdotal evidence of an incident pales in comparison with an independent formal review. you're just wrong about this, get over it.

The second word for you is OFF on this latest misinformed observation.

I wasn,t aware that a reasonable guy like kopite needed you to respond for him re my reply to him.

Those idiots can thank their lucky stars Taylor didn,t choose to investigate them further, as for the many eye witness statements on this, mine was not an isolated one, i can assure you.

Our local MP,s are well aware of our thoughts and observations in relation to them !!!!!

you continue to be offensive and to insult the memory of 96 innocent people who died at a football match by maintaining that fan behaviour was to blame in any way. your one personal isolated incident was not mentioned in the taylor report and as such has no bearing on the reasons that 96 innocent people died at a football match. your continued embarrassing pursuit of this line of argument can only mean that you are either a] a really tasteless wind-up merchant or b] too ignorant to realise the stupidity of your own words.

How sad your one sided take on my views have become, along with your far from the truth observations on my objectives.

[Devil]

No idea why this was reopened or whatever... it stinks! and it serves of no use.

And I find it very offensive to listen to some of the comments on here.

I for one vote this thread it be closed now!

[highchol]

No idea why this was reopened or whatever... it stinks! and it serves of no use.

And I find it very offensive to listen to some of the comments on here.

I for one vote this thread it be closed now!

if you read the posts you may come to understand, the thread was not closed but split, to allow differing views to be aired about the tragedy. By doing so the original primarily condolence thread could remain as such.

[StevieH]

How sad your one sided take on my views have become, along with your far from the truth observations on my objectives.

the only thing sad about my 'views' is that they are true and based on the official taylor report into the reasons behind the hillsborough disaster. your continued gossip, personal opinions and waffle continue to be offensive to the memory of 96 people who died through no fault of their own. and you use the word 'truth' like kelvin mckenzie did.

as i said, either a WUM or just plain stupid.

[MiG16]

guys

i know its something everyone feels strongly about, but really, if we cant calm down, then i cant keep the thread running.

might be hard to agree to disagree, but we do have to move on somehow.

[Chaimai]

guys

i know its something everyone feels strongly about, but really, if we cant calm down, then i cant keep the thread running.

might be hard to agree to disagree, but we do have to move on somehow.

On reflection I think that it is probably impossible to run a discussion on this subject as emotions are running too high.

[StevieH]

guys

i know its something everyone feels strongly about, but really, if we cant calm down, then i cant keep the thread running.

might be hard to agree to disagree, but we do have to move on somehow.

mig, liverpool fans have been fighting lies about hillsborough for 20 years, so i'm afraid that as long as sheff_mick continues to talk out of his hole about hillsborough and slander the memory of 96 innocent people who went to a football match and died, i'll continue to tell him he's talking <deleted>.

would rather you didn't close the thread based on the bullshit spouted by one wind-up merchant but that's your prerogative.

[MiG16]

i dont feel an urgent need to close the thread

but at the same time, is there really any sense in keeping the thread running, as there seems 2 main opposing ideas, and neither are willing to listen to the other side anyway

perhaps everyone just better drift off away from this thread and carry on with less emotional subjects?

regards

[sheff_mick]

i dont feel an urgent need to close the thread

but at the same time, is there really any sense in keeping the thread running, as there seems 2 main opposing ideas, and neither are willing to listen to the other side anyway

perhaps everyone just better drift off away from this thread and carry on with less emotional subjects?

regards

Thanks MiG, for your common sense moderating on these 2 threads and this referrence, relating to this side of the split you did for us all, which i happily take on board.

Respectfully

SM

Edited for a spelling mistake.

[mr_hippo]

Why are some people using tabloid headline phrasing on this thread? "96 Innocent People". Do you see references to 1517 innocent peole dying when the Titanic went down? What about the innocent 9/11 deaths? Or 50 innocents die in Summerland fire? Or...

People have said the they have read the Taylor Report - there were two reports produced so which of the two have they read?

In the Final Report, Taylor says "Having made my findings as to the events at Hillsborough, I do not in this report say any more about them save by way of illustration." (Final Report - ISBN 0 10 109622 4 - Introduction, para 13, page 2.

Would anyone care to comment on the following from the Interim Report

At the back of the crowd fans were frustrated by the lack of progress as 3 o'clock

approached. Some, mostly young men who had been drinking, tried to push and force their way forward. At the front, people were jammed together and against the turnstile walls. Some panicked as the pressure intensified. Some youngsters and women were fainting and in distress. They were helped out through the tubular barrier by turnstile G or were passed over the turnstiles elsewhere. Fans climbed up and over the turnstile building or on to the dividing fence. This was to escape the crush rather than to gain free entry since most of them had tickets. [interim Report (ISBN 010 1076525) Part I, Chap 3 Para 64]

At 2.48 pm, whilst Mr Duckenfield was considering the request, gate C opened to eject a youth who had climbed in with no ticket. Immediately, fans outside took advantage and about 150 managed to get in before a mounted officer enabled the gate to be closed again.

[ibid. Part I, Chap 3 Para 67]

The FA had also laid down in a memorandum issued in the 1985/6 season measures to be adopted by the away club which included the following:-

"It is the responsibility of the away club to advise the home club of the recent behaviour of their supporters at away matches, irrespective of whether the behaviour has resulted in disciplinary action by the Football Association or not".

It does not seem that information of this kind was passed to the Sheffield Wednesday Club or played any part in the South Yorkshire Police plans. Had the latter been informed of the history contained in the dossier and summarised above it may well have influenced police strategy in Leppings Lane.

[ibid. Part II, Chap 1 Para 218 & 219]

The presence of an unruly minority who had drunk too much aggravated the problem.

[ibid. Part III, Chap 16 Para 268]

[sheff_mick]

Why are some people using tabloid headline phrasing on this thread? "96 Innocent People". Do you see references to 1517 innocent peole dying when the Titanic went down? What about the innocent 9/11 deaths? Or 50 innocents die in Summerland fire? Or...

People have said the they have read the Taylor Report - there were two reports produced so which of the two have they read?

In the Final Report, Taylor says "Having made my findings as to the events at Hillsborough, I do not in this report say any more about them save by way of illustration." (Final Report - ISBN 0 10 109622 4 - Introduction, para 13, page 2.

Would anyone care to comment on the following from the Interim Report

At the back of the crowd fans were frustrated by the lack of progress as 3 o'clock

approached. Some, mostly young men who had been drinking, tried to push and force their way forward. At the front, people were jammed together and against the turnstile walls. Some panicked as the pressure intensified. Some youngsters and women were fainting and in distress. They were helped out through the tubular barrier by turnstile G or were passed over the turnstiles elsewhere. Fans climbed up and over the turnstile building or on to the dividing fence. This was to escape the crush rather than to gain free entry since most of them had tickets. [interim Report (ISBN 010 1076525) Part I, Chap 3 Para 64]

At 2.48 pm, whilst Mr Duckenfield was considering the request, gate C opened to eject a youth who had climbed in with no ticket. Immediately, fans outside took advantage and about 150 managed to get in before a mounted officer enabled the gate to be closed again.

[ibid. Part I, Chap 3 Para 67]

The FA had also laid down in a memorandum issued in the 1985/6 season measures to be adopted by the away club which included the following:-

"It is the responsibility of the away club to advise the home club of the recent behaviour of their supporters at away matches, irrespective of whether the behaviour has resulted in disciplinary action by the Football Association or not".

It does not seem that information of this kind was passed to the Sheffield Wednesday Club or played any part in the South Yorkshire Police plans. Had the latter been informed of the history contained in the dossier and summarised above it may well have influenced police strategy in Leppings Lane.

[ibid. Part II, Chap 1 Para 218 & 219]

The presence of an unruly minority who had drunk too much aggravated the problem.

[ibid. Part III, Chap 16 Para 268]

Thank you is not adequate enough for this very important information, Mr Hippo.

Roy Hattersley, Richard Caborn, Clive Betts and David Blunkett have all tried to expand on these comments, of which i was unable to give precise and relevant information about, so had to keep my referrences to them brief.

All we have ever wanted is the truth about these above mentioned observations especially the surge from outside that I repeatedly mentioned.

I did mention in one post that was deleted during the split MiG kindly did for us to enable discussions and hopefully the ceasing of the commonly used " tabloid headline phrasing on this thread? " "96 Innocent People" as you describe it MR H

This now being a discussion thread, that i,d hoped it would no longer be used as a reason not to post my observations as an eye witness and what i and many others saw like wise.

I also mentioned about the mounted policeman being physically lifted and moved by the surge of the crowd, along with the families being frightened and distressed that i,d witnessed from my vantage point ect. ect. that i described on the bridge.

Only now it would seem i was not imagining things, or words to that effect, and telling lies ect. while others seemingly took the " Final Taylor Report " as gospel, refused to accept my experiences, one of many eye witness version of events, and dismissed it as rumour mongering and much much worse, ect. ect.

Thanks to your sterling work in locating this document, much of what i have been trying to put across can now be verified.

NO gloating as a result by the way, just one of relief that eye witness reports really should and do matter against written ones especially when the full implicatons of certain actions re crowd surges and unruly whatever one wishes to call them are less than complete and very much understated.

Lots of people including myself in Sheffield and this includes the more well known local Members of Parliament and other local dignitaries see the crowd surges from behind and outside as very critical

Can anyone honestly say that had the surges from the back and outside not happened, the same tragic circumstances would have occured, while I cannot speak for everyone else, for me personally I reckon not.

When it gets to build up time on the field and kick off with the crowd cheering and even during the game......

How many times all you sports supporters, especially footy ones have you been pushed and shoved, sometimes in very frightening circumstances have you experienced similar worries and concerns.

There, but for god, go all of us, fate wise, even today and even after all that has happened over the years up and down the U.K.

SM

[rott]

The Summerland fire mr_hippo? Bet there's not too many on here remember that.

[Chaimai]

The Summerland fire mr_hippo? Bet there's not too many on here remember that.

Oh My God ! 1973 and I had forgotten about Summerland.

Even the Bradford fire in 1985 seems a lifetime ago even though I watched it unfurl on tv.

Hillsborough seems only like yesterday.

Maybe because we have just had the 20th anniversary.

Maybe because there was negligence involved that contributed to the disaster and 'justice' has not been seen to be done for the deceased.

Maybe because it was sensationalised by mis-reporting at the time.

Maybe because 'Hillsborough' is not put to rest by some Liverrpool fans. I believe that you have to move on - disasters/tragedies happen every day but life goes on for all but the deceased. I won't start to bore you with stories behind my G/Fs loss of her son, nephew, younger sister and father all within 2 years. She has 'moved on' - maybe Buddhist beliefs have helped her.

Maybe because of the refusal of many many Liverpool fans to accept that, maybe, just one of their fans may actually have contributed to the disaster - has created a crusade against all and everything else that caused the events of that fateful day.

Maybe because I was there.

[sheff_mick]

Of topic i know, but for me the graphic images shown on the Bradford fire disaster where horrendous in as much as seeing all those people litterally on fire ad running about ect. was very hard to take in.

While the Hillsborough disaster was far more so of course and so heart wrenching watching the unthinkable develop and unfold.

We are truly sorry it happened on our watch and all that happened leading up to it with the factors increasing the human loss of life as it developed.

There is plenty of blame to share among those who made up the collective reasons and causes as to why so much human loss of life took place.

They will have to live with it all forever.

It in no way equates or compares to the suffering of the loved ones who lost their kin on that day.

One is of guilt, the other is of unconsolable heartbreak and heartache.

We can all reflect on the " if only " scenarios, but sadly it will not bring them back.

For me if only the fences had not been there, or the access gates had been big enough and double openers there would have been somewhere for those trapped to escape to on the pitch.

I know i keep saying it, but how very saddened we all where and will continue to be so.

SM