How Many Years In Prison Does Thaksin Deserve?

[mc2]

yeh but this thread has more than 3000 views and just 150 votes so there is people who dont care so much they couldnt care to vote.

TOTAL BS and you know it.

Many of the same people come back to comment and view the new results!

I knew you would make that point, and yes its true, however, it does not fully explain the 3000 - 150 ratio.

150 votes is a low turnout for a board of this size, which seems to indicate to me, most expats dont care.

[Jingthing]

I find it hard to believe that most expats don't care. That is not the same thing as taking a side, red or yellow. I don't support red OR yellow yet I care very much about the political crisis of the country I have chosen to live in. I also think most Thai people care about their country, but also that most Thai people are not married to either red or yellow.

[Moonrakers]

This thread reminds me of why I stopped reading the news clippings section.

So many people so partisan to their own thoughts that facts are blatantly distorted and and hypocrisy runs rife leaving discussion next to impossible. I hope that one day Thai Visa has it's own section created for discussions such as these, as has been requested in the pass.

I bow out of this one, really just can't be bothered.

[Lite Beer]

A post containing references to the Monarchy has been deleted twice. Any attempt at reposting it will result in the member facing a ban as per forum rules.

2) Not to express disrespect of the King of Thailand or anyone else in the Thai royal family, whether living or deceased, nor to criticize the monarchy as an institution. Speculation and comments of a political nature are not allowed when discussing HM The King or the Royal family. Discussion of the lese majeste law or lese majeste cases is permitted on the forum, providing no comment or speculation is made referencing the royal family. To breach this rule will result in immediate ban.

[flying]

I don't support red OR yellow

Yeah sure....

Hence all the many Thaksin

Hate polls that you put out constantly

[rixalex]

I don't support red OR yellow

Yeah sure....

Hence all the many Thaksin

Hate polls that you put out constantly

What are you saying? Only "yellow" supporters are allowed to hate Thaksin?

[Abrak]

I know that most posts have focused on Thaksin's dubious activities. I do think though that is important to understand why Thaksin is so popular amongst so many - it did much to reduce income inequality between the rich and the poor especially in the North and North East. I am not saying that Thaksin is a crusader for the poor, it was probably pure political expediency. You can perhaps understand though why people would prefer to be governed by him rather than an OE, Oxford educated member of the ruling elite.

Here is the gini coefficient...

This measures income distribution - a fall representing a more equal distribution of income. It fell in all regions 2000-2004 apart from Bangkok where it remained the same (source World Bank Report 2005). As a general rule gini coefficients increase as a country grows.

Look also how rural incomes rose relative to those in Bangkok between 2000 and 2004....

Thaksin's period in office also massively reduced the number living below the poverty line...

Look at the North East where the percentage halved in the space of 4 years while it had only fallen 30% in the previous ten.

(I realize the stats are a bit dodgy - Thaksin didnt come to power to 2001 and was in power after 2004. Unfortunately I couldnt find the stats for those exact dates.)

There is a sort of 'myth' about Thaksin that 'he is a crook that the poor are too stupid to realize'. The theory amongst the poor is this 'Thaksin was the first politician to deliberately skew policies for the benefit of the poor, clearly this was not in the interest of the rich power elite so he was removed.'

I have some sympathy with both views. But people who want to get all moralistic about Thaksin and the deaths of 2000 innocents are better off turning their attentions to Iraq. There are 30m people who see a man committed to improving their lives (actually he merely wants their vote) he was kicked out by a military coup. Prosecution and imprisonment would be very socially divisive.

[emancipationthailand]

I am very sorry if my postings may had been disrupting the total domination at this forum, Jingthing and his powerful allies.

I am deeply regret to get this exclusive warning, which i insist posting here should benefits a few folks whom don't wish to be branded as 'being very biased' here.

"Again I have to ask you to tone down your political comment. ThaiVisa is happy to allow political discussion, but that does not include using this forum for your very biased support for one side." Thank you for your friendly warning Dr. Pat Phong.

[emancipationthailand]

I know that most posts have focused on Thaksin's dubious activities. I do think though that is important to understand why Thaksin is so popular amongst so many - it did much to reduce income inequality between the rich and the poor especially in the North and North East. I am not saying that Thaksin is a crusader for the poor, it was probably pure political expediency. You can perhaps understand though why people would prefer to be governed by him rather than an OE, Oxford educated member of the ruling elite.

Here is the gini coefficient...

This measures income distribution - a fall representing a more equal distribution of income. It fell in all regions 2000-2004 apart from Bangkok where it remained the same (source World Bank Report 2005). As a general rule gini coefficients increase as a country grows.

Look also how rural incomes rose relative to those in Bangkok between 2000 and 2004....

Thaksin's period in office also massively reduced the number living below the poverty line...

Look at the North East where the percentage halved in the space of 4 years while it had only fallen 30% in the previous ten.

(I realize the stats are a bit dodgy - Thaksin didnt come to power to 2001 and was in power after 2004. Unfortunately I couldnt find the stats for those exact dates.)

There is a sort of 'myth' about Thaksin that 'he is a crook that the poor are too stupid to realize'. The theory amongst the poor is this 'Thaksin was the first politician to deliberately skew policies for the benefit of the poor, clearly this was not in the interest of the rich power elite so he was removed.'

I have some sympathy with both views. But people who want to get all moralistic about Thaksin and the deaths of 2000 innocents are better off turning their attentions to Iraq. There are 30m people who see a man committed to improving their lives (actually he merely wants their vote) he was kicked out by a military coup. Prosecution and imprisonment would be very socially divisive.

If not for the accused political motive, the poverty alleviation is based on Thailand's commitment on MDG. (millenium development goals) http://poverty.nesdb.go.th/Edocument/Eng_Paper/Pov_MDG.pdf

[henryalleman]

I vote no opinion, But i think let him pay back the money he stolen and corrupted money and the tax eavasion together with an heavy interest rate for delayed payements, confiscate all assets that he gain by coruption together with an 20 year on probition would be an excellent Idea. And of course an at least ten year ban for any political mandate. Also take back all his honorary titles and ranks.

but hey, who am I to suggest something like that;, its only a tought. Because nobody will benefit from a jail sentence, hurt him where it will hurt the most IN HIS WALLET AND EGO.

Edited August 9, 2009 by henryalleman

[ivowatson]

There are 30m people who see a man committed to improving their lives (actually he merely wants their vote) he was kicked out by a military coup. Prosecution and imprisonment would be very socially divisive.

I think it's more like 15 million who love him and 15 million who hate him with the silent majority sitting on the fence because that's the Thai way to do it. Imprisonment would indeed be divisive but so would pardonning him. Solution: he cannot return until he dies. The big problem is that he won't give up and will use all his resources to get back in charge and divide the population even more. I'm affraid this could result in a civil war.

[rixalex]

I know that most posts have focused on Thaksin's dubious activities. I do think though that is important to understand why Thaksin is so popular amongst so many - it did much to reduce income inequality between the rich and the poor especially in the North and North East. I am not saying that Thaksin is a crusader for the poor, it was probably pure political expediency. You can perhaps understand though why people would prefer to be governed by him rather than an OE, Oxford educated member of the ruling elite.

Look at the North East where the percentage halved in the space of 4 years while it had only fallen 30% in the previous ten.

(I realize the stats are a bit dodgy - Thaksin didnt come to power to 2001 and was in power after 2004. Unfortunately I couldnt find the stats for those exact dates.)

There is a sort of 'myth' about Thaksin that 'he is a crook that the poor are too stupid to realize'. The theory amongst the poor is this 'Thaksin was the first politician to deliberately skew policies for the benefit of the poor, clearly this was not in the interest of the rich power elite so he was removed.'

I have some sympathy with both views. But people who want to get all moralistic about Thaksin and the deaths of 2000 innocents are better off turning their attentions to Iraq. There are 30m people who see a man committed to improving their lives (actually he merely wants their vote) he was kicked out by a military coup. Prosecution and imprisonment would be very socially divisive.

Abrak, your post makes a lot of sense.

Just a few points though:

In terms of people being better off under Thaksin i think that owed a lot to timing. Thaksin came to power at a very good time - other PMs aren't so fortunate. Take PM Abhisit for example. No matter who is in power at this particular time, they would be struggling thanks to the world economy. Anyone who believes that Thaksin would suddenly have all the answers and turn things around is wrong.

So i believe that whoever was in power during the Thaksin era, Thai people would have seen their lives improve to some degree. But that's not to say that Thaksin didn't do some good stuff - he did. And i certainly don't blame him or his fans for taking the credit for how things improved under him - that's the privilege of every PM - just as it's also the burden that they must accept the blame when things go badly, even if it some things may be out of their control.

Regarding the myth that poor are too stupid to realise that Thaksin is a crook. Let me tell you, anyone who by now hasn't realised that Thaksin is crooked must be stupid or deluded or a mixture of the two.

Most of his sympathisers you find here won't argue about him being a crook or not, rather that he was "less of a crook" than others.

To me, a crook is a crook. Simple as that. They all deserve to face justice, whether they be wearing red, yellow, pink or blue. And just because some of them evade it, to me is not a reason to argue for others to also do so. It's that sort of sad mentality that holds the country back.

[rixalex]

I vote no opinion, But i think let him pay back the money he stolen and corrupted money and the tax eavasion together with an heavy interest rate for delayed payements, confiscate all assets that he gain by coruption together with an 20 year on probition would be an excellent Idea. And of course an at least ten year ban for any political mandate. Also take back all his honorary titles and ranks.

I love the idea but the big probem is what would prevent these decisions being reversed at some time in the future.

[Abrak]

If not for the accused political motive, the poverty alleviation is based on Thailand's commitment on MDG. (millenium development goals) http://poverty.nesdb.go.th/Edocument/Eng_Paper/Pov_MDG.pdf

Oh come on the NESDB is an advisory body it puts out an MDG recommending reducing poverty at least every 3 years. To the best of my knowledge it is always endorsed as some sort of policy goal. The fact is though that Thaksin was very effective in reducing income inequality (I believe between 2001 and 2005, inequality was reduced more than any other country in Asia). The NESDB doesnt run things. The policies were entirely intentional although I admit it may have been politically motivated. Economic policy has never been run by the NESDB.

You might not even see these policies as good and possibly detrimental to the overall growth rate. People should admit though that he appeared to many of the working class as the first PM interested in promoting their interests. Many Thais believe it is the ruling elite that should govern in some shape or form. In many respects it was Thaksin's popularity with the working class that worried certain sections of society most.

[Jingthing]

I am very sorry if my postings may had been disrupting the total domination at this forum, Jingthing and his powerful allies.

Khun Eman, please speak for yourself. OK? I am a nobody. I have no powerful allies unless you count a certain aged cockapoo I count as my best friend. You did not disrupt me. My only problem with you is that I did not UNDERSTAND you! I prompted you to clearly explain your point of view in YOUR OWN WORDS as opposed to massive cut and pastes, and you never really did. Don't blame OTHERS for your own shortcomings in communication skills, that's my tip to you.

Edited August 9, 2009 by Jingthing

[emancipationthailand]

Modified after got deleted by the mod twice in a row.

As a thai, i insisted that you all need to have this fundamental understanding. >>> Concluding with Taksin's issues, the top issues the Thai people wants see truth justices brought used to be and still somewhat relatively the same;

1. People 'behind' the late terrorisms in the three most southern provinces.

2. Democrat Party's intended mishandlings of FIDF and its shady deals with Lehman Brothers and Goldman Sachs.

3. Sonthi Limthongul's ASTV

4. Military's gunned down the civil demonstrations in 1973, 1976 and 1992. (All involved army dictators were awarded, protected, and praised by most of the Thailand elites)

early reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Thailand_since_1973

5. ............

6. The ousting of the beloved EX-PM Predee panomyong by his elite oppositions.

[Jingthing]

So am I to assume these are the very latest Truth Today talking points?

Very current indeed --- 1973. Egads, your movement is in more trouble than I thought.

[Abrak]

In terms of people being better off under Thaksin i think that owed a lot to timing. Thaksin came to power at a very good time - other PMs aren't so fortunate. Take PM Abhisit for example. No matter who is in power at this particular time, they would be struggling thanks to the world economy. Anyone who believes that Thaksin would suddenly have all the answers and turn things around is wrong.

His timing wasnt that good or that bad. 1990-1994 GDP increased 92% and poverty halved. 2000-2004 it grew 41% and poverty halved. Rural incomes grew in excess of average incomes. Median incomes in the USA have declined relative to average incomes over the last 30 years.

I also hope that you can see that there is little chance that the average NE farmer will ever place much trust in an Etonian and Oxford educated member of the Thai elite to either act in his best interests or even understand what they are.

Most of his sympathisers you find here won't argue about him being a crook or not, rather that he was "less of a crook" than others.

To me, a crook is a crook. Simple as that. They all deserve to face justice, whether they be wearing red, yellow, pink or blue. And just because some of them evade it, to me is not a reason to argue for others to also do so. It's that sort of sad mentality that holds the country back.

There is a degree that many people excuse him because he was no worse than Banharn Chavalit Chatichai Sunthorn etc. They also excuse him because he DID at least achieve something in their eyes. If you dislike Thaksin lets face it he is suffering to a degree, he has had most of his fortune confiscated he is an exile. I know that you might not think that punishment enough but accept it.

The people who supported him also feel badly treated - the person that promoted their interests has been deposed. Just as you dont think he has been punished enough, they believe their democratic rights have been abused.

Consider him a crook by all means but I just cant see how it is in this country's best interests to arrest him, charge him with whatever and throw him in jail.

I mean Roman Abromavich is a crook, a thief, a thug and has resorted to every trick in the book to steal his money and I suspect he will shortly receive a knighthood. Why get so excited about Thaksin.

Lets keep it simple. Say there are 15m who believe he should be running the country and another 15m who believe he should be locked up for 20 years. If either of those two events happens there will be big trouble

[Jingthing]

Consider him a crook by all means but I just cant see how it is in this country's best interests to arrest him, charge him with whatever and throw him in jail.

Even if he tries AGAIN and AGAIN to foment violent revolution attempts? I agree if he was a normal man, rather than what he is which is massively deviant, make a deal and let it be. He will not accept let it be. What is the government supposed to do with a loose cannon like that, just bend over?

[Abrak]

Even if he tries AGAIN and AGAIN to foment violent revolution attempts? I agree if he was a normal man, rather than what he is which is massively deviant, make a deal and let it be. He will not accept let it be. What is the government supposed to do with a loose cannon like that, just bend over?

Well my assumption is the opposite. He gets attention because people hate him or like him. Just ignore him and he will fade from view. You call him a loose cannon but what can he do? He is more of a loose water pistol. His supporters will find someone else to have faith in. Those who dislike him will forget the reasons why. When you hear he is going to make some public speech somewhere, I doubt you are the slightest bit interested.

He will become irrelevant and people will lose interest.

[sriracha john]

There are 30m people who see a man committed to improving their lives (actually he merely wants their vote) he was kicked out by a military coup. Prosecution and imprisonment would be very socially divisive.

Solution: he cannot return until he dies.

That worked out well all-around with the other Southeast Asian Despotic Dictator Ferdinand Marcos.

Edited August 9, 2009 by sriracha john

[Ulysses G.]

I don't support red OR yellow

Yeah sure....

Hence all the many Thaksin

Hate polls that you put out constantly

What are you saying? Only "yellow" supporters are allowed to hate Thaksin?

He is saying that it is obvious from his posts that Jingthing is in the yellow corner.

[spongeman]

None.

This unelected government needs to stop concentrating on him and carry out the job that they were given no mandate to do.

The current anti Thaksin coalition government received over 60% of the vote. Thaksin's proxy party received 35%.

Er, 60 % of what vote ? Did I miss a general election or something ?

This government should set up shop in Africa, where election results are ignored.

Edited August 9, 2009 by spongeman

[Jingthing]

He is saying that it is obvious from his posts that Jingthing is in the yellow corner.

I totally deny that. I am extremely anti-Thaksin and anti red thuggery. That is not the same thing as being supportive of the yellow agenda, for example appointing officials rather than electing. It is a typical and false red tactic to label all anti-Thaksin people as being pro PAD. Absolutely wrong!

Actually both the hard core reds and the hard core yellows are trying to put everyone in a box, you must choose to be a true believer in one side or the other.

NO

YOU

DON'T

In other words, resist their nonsense.

That is how civil wars get started. It is happening here. Can it be stopped? I don't know.

I do know one thing. Thaksin is not a player that can be negotiated with in good faith. That should be obvious to everyone.

Edited August 9, 2009 by Jingthing

[visible]

The knower will not speak and the speaker will not know.

[Jingthing]

The knower will not speak and the speaker will not know.

Turn right for the Twilight Zone thread ...

Edited August 9, 2009 by Jingthing

[Ulysses G.]

He is saying that it is obvious from his posts that Jingthing is in the yellow corner.

I totally deny that. I am extremely anti-Thaksin and anti red thuggery.

Whenever anything bad is said about the yellows, you counter that the reds are much worse. If you are not a yellow supporter, you are certainly a yellow enabler. I'm not sure which is worse.

[Jingthing]

Guilty. I do think the reds are much worse and more dangerous. However, still not pro yellow. I don't see either movement as being pro democratic. The yellows are overtly elitist and anti-democratic. The reds hide under the rhetoric of being pro-democratic while supporting the re-emergence of a power mad dictator for life wannabe. What is to love about either side? Nothing. However, on the reds, there is indeed more to detest and they are also MUCH MORE VIOLENT.

Personally, and I am not optimistic, I would love to see a totally new NON VIOLENT PEOPLE POWER pro democracy reform movement which overtly divorces itself from everything red and everything Thaksin going so far as to denounce him and his violent tactics. I wonder how many of the reds would switch to such an idealistic faction, I know some would.

Edited August 9, 2009 by Jingthing

[frodo]

According to latest ABAC poll ( I know, take it with a grain of salt), Thaksin is losing both integrity and ethics with Abhisit the front-runner in both. Take it as you will.

Abhisit beats Thaksin in term of ethics, integrity: survey

More people believe in Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva's ethics and integrity than in former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra's, an opinion survey has found.

The survey by ABAC Poll of Assumption University found that 71.4 per cent of the respondents named Abhisit when asked whom they think of as the politicians with ethics while 61.6 per cent named Thaksin. Each respondent can name several choices of politicians in order.

When asked to name politicians with integrity, 68.2 per cent of the respondents named Abhisit while 40.5 per cent Thaksin.

Source: Nation: Abhisit Beats Thaksin

[lannarebirth]

Even if he tries AGAIN and AGAIN to foment violent revolution attempts? I agree if he was a normal man, rather than what he is which is massively deviant, make a deal and let it be. He will not accept let it be. What is the government supposed to do with a loose cannon like that, just bend over?

Well my assumption is the opposite. He gets attention because people hate him or like him. Just ignore him and he will fade from view. You call him a loose cannon but what can he do? He is more of a loose water pistol. His supporters will find someone else to have faith in. Those who dislike him will forget the reasons why. When you hear he is going to make some public speech somewhere, I doubt you are the slightest bit interested.

He will become irrelevant and people will lose interest.

Some while back there was a thread here about the two global PR firms Thaksin had retained to keep his name in the news and to make sure publications wrote articles about him with the correct "spin". A quick perusal of the last 50 threads concerning Thaksin will show i think a lot of "made up" news items which only serve to keep his name in the news. As you say, if not for this effort he would quickly become irrelevant. Maybe after his assets case is decided he'll let up, but I doubt it.